Epic Destinies

[LeLoric]

Epic difficulties (from casual to elite) are slated to be somewhere between hard and elite for what is currently Epic. If your rogue can currently function in epics, then you should not have any problems functioning later. The extra skills from epic levels are gravy, not meat.

You've been in each of the quests and know the trap dc's? I don't think theres any way you can say that its ok cause you won't need them. We already have extremely high open locks in some epic quests and with a rogue that wasn't extremely high in int may not be able to afford any points for open locks.

Sure it may work out ok but it still boils down to an extreme advantage for classes that already had 2 + int mod as their skill point use and they now gain all skills as class based too.

[Kielbasa]

Epic levels currently grant 2+(Int Mod) skill points, with all skills available as class skills.

Do humans still get their bonus skill point per level in epic levels?

This greatly benefits Wizards and Artificers while penalizing rogues, rangers, bards, and to a lesser extent monks. Any class that inherently gets a bunch of skill points but does not have Intellengence as a primary stat really gets hurt by this change. There should be some consideration given to what your primary Heroic class is for determining how many Epic skill points you get per level.

Some Examples:

Wizard: Starting Int 18 + 5 level ups +3 tome= 26 Intelligence= +8 Mod

So 10 skill points per Epic level

This lets the wizard pick a few skills they were only putting half levels in during their heroic level and just about max them out. This means you could make a wizard with 0 rogue or artificer levels and max out search, disable device, and umd. That is broken.

Artificer: Starting Int 18 + 5 level ups +3 tome= 26 Intelligence= +8 Mod

So 10 skill points per Epic level

Was getting 12 skill points per Heroic level.

Artificers get 7 skills as class skills that they should be maxing (Concentration, Disable Device, Haggle, Open Locks, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device) anything else is gravy so the loss of 2 skill points is not a big deal this does not effect them much.

Rogue #1

Starting Int 8 + 0 level ups +3 tome= 11 Intelligence= +0 Mod

So 2 skill points per Epic level

Was getting 7/8 skill points per Heroic level.

A rogue who could previously find and disable traps in heroic content can no longer max out their trap skills let alone get Bluff, Use Magic Device, etc. This is a huge penalty to the rogue class in epic levels.

Rogue #2

Starting Int 14 + 0 level ups +3 tome= 17 Intelligence= +3 Mod

So 5 skill points per Epic level

Was getting 10/11 skill points per Heroic level.

For a rogue with moderate starting Intelligence they might be able to get the bare bones of what they may want in terms of skills. With 5 points odds are may would get search, disable device, use magic device, bluff, and either balance or open lock. So for any rogue that treasures tumble, haggle, spot, diplomacy, etc you're pretty much locking any rogue but a mechanic repeater rogue out of them now.

Ranger with Rogue splash (Human)

Starting Int 12 + 0 level ups +3 tome= 15 Intelligence= +2 Mod

So 4 skill points per Epic level (5 if the human bonus still applies)

Was getting 7/8 skill points per Heroic level.

It is pretty common for rangers to splash a rogue level for trap skills and umd access. In general most will max search, disable device, and umd. Splitting points in skills such as open lock, jump, intimidate, spot, or balance. Surprisingly the change in epic levels won't hurt this setup much since everything becomes a class skill.

Pure Ranger

Starting Int 8 + 0 level ups +3 tome= 11 Intelligence= +0 Mod

So 2 skill points per Epic level

Was getting 5/6 skill points per Heroic level.

The interesting thing is that a pure ranger gets hit harder than the splash. Odds are a pure ranger is maxing Spot, Hide, Move Silently, jump and concentration. Epic levels all of a sudden they cannot even max those kind of useful class skills they were before?

Bard

Starting Int 8 + 0 level ups +3 tome= 11 Intelligence= +0 Mod

So 2 skill points per Epic level

Was getting 5/6 skill points per Heroic level.

Bards get screwed as well. Was maxing umd, haggle, perform, and various other skills before but pretty much cannot do so during Epic levels this is very broken.

[LeLoric]

If your a TR fanatic/completionist, would it not make sense to not take any Epic Levels and just hold on to the Epic XP until you are ready to take those Epic Levels?

You 'bank' the Epic XP through TR - nothing lost. You don't take any Epic Training - nothing lost on TR.

If your a completionist, you know in advance you will loose any Epic Training - so don't take any. Go and play End Game with your friends, store up some Epic XP.

You don't bank the epic xp through tr you bank your epic destiny progression. Two different things. And that is where I have the issue. I think a lot of people agreeing with the system don't understand exactly how it is going to work.

[Lifespawn]

I disagree, TR is a choice but made for us by someone else. TRing is practically mandatory to function properly. lev20Wizard without 1-2wizard pastlifes? good luck penetrating mobs spell resistance.

i made a sorc 6 years ago and have never tr'd her she is still very end game viable it is not a necessity to tr

[Dagolar]

This is really harsh for rogues who get 6 less skill points per level and arguably have more skills to keep up than any other class. They also have hardly any non class skills and don't benefit at all from that.

Even with 12 starting int and a +4 tome we are talking 5 per level.

That keeps up umd, search, disable, open locks and one other.

Others that rogues like bluff, diplo, hide, move silently, balance, haggle.

I could see bards taking it pretty bad here too as they have little to no reason to invest in int but have some pretty important skill points they need to invest in.

Could always have a 'Pick a Path' type option at acquisition of level 21:
Select from a single bonus, that affects how your epic levels work.
1: +1 Caster Level per Epic Level
2: +5 HP per Epic Level
3: +1 attack bonus per Epic Level
4: +4 skill points per Epic Level

It wouldn't dramatically affect power balance, it'd add variety to the base epic levels, and it'd deal with (most, since it only goes to 6 with that example) skill point issues. It also keeps the option for epic level caster level increase, as per pnp (though, of all of those examples, that's certainly the most potent option I presented, so perhaps 1 at 21, 23, 25 or somesuch, or some other rework of the overall idea).

Of course, everything else can be handled by Destinies, but skill points, since Destinies are swappable, can't, at least, not without a "+4 to all skills" ability tucked in there somewhere.

Which'd work..

So, multiple options to resolve it, but, unless epic questing makes the -5 skill ranks irrelevant, it should be addressed.

[Dagolar]

You don't bank the epic xp through tr you bank your epic destiny progression. Two different things. And that is where I have the issue. I think a lot of people agreeing with the system don't understand exactly how it is going to work.

Nah, I think most people just aren't bothered by the fact that we're guaranteed persistent, steady leveling gains, which last through TRing, and have a secondary leveling system alongside that which doesn't remain persistent through TRing, just like other levels; but, unlike other levels, it's not required for TRing.

As I've mentioned before. Currently, you bank or TR at 20. This doesn't change ANYTHING, except giving you benefits for banking xp- some benefits of which actually persist through TRs.
And those persistent benefits aren't exclusive to the other gains in playtime earnings, so you technically don't lose anything except high level quest access, and all things considered, you're really only just temporarily needing to reacquire access to elite level 25 quests, everything else should be manageable.

Honestly, I find it a generous enough system.

Now, there WERE concerns over the validity of epic levels after capping Destinies, in relation to TRing, but Roland and I gave some very compelling work-throughs Here and Here for that.

[Jaxom_Faux]

You don't bank the epic xp through tr you bank your epic destiny progression. Two different things. And that is where I have the issue. I think a lot of people agreeing with the system don't understand exactly how it is going to work.

I understand exactly how it will work and have no issue.

What i don't understand is why this game (you know that thing we do for fun) has become a job (that thing you do work to gain money/incentives) to some and those people think they're entitled for "wasting your time".

granted it would be awesome if there was a way to keep everyone happy and i'm all for it if possible, but i feel a few people are making a mountain out of a molehill.

I personally consider it calling DOOM when we don't even have all of the details (much less used) the system yet so in 5 days when i get to play on the beta i'll have a much more informed and considered opinion on the matter.

any suggestion that retains things mostly as they are while throwing the completionists/serial trs a bone is good enough for me at this point.


The question about skill points is good though, are epic skill points just gravy or will we actively need epic ranks to make things work?

[Kielbasa]

Nah, I think most people just aren't bothered by the fact that we're guaranteed persistent, steady leveling gains, which last through TRing, and have a secondary leveling system alongside that which doesn't remain persistent through TRing, just like other levels; but, unlike other levels, it's not required for TRing.

As I've mentioned before. Currently, you bank or TR at 20. This doesn't change ANYTHING, except giving you benefits for banking xp- some benefits of which actually persist through TRs. And those persistent benefits aren't exclusive to the other gains in playtime earnings, so you technically don't lose anything except high level quest access, and all things considered, you're really only just temporarily needing to reacquire access to elite level 25 quests, everything else should be manageable.

Honestly, I find it a generous enough system.

Now, there WERE concerns over the validity of epic levels after capping Destinies, in relation to TRing, but Roland and I gave some very compelling work-throughs for that.

Good summation. I know I don't have any problem with regrinding 21-25 every time. But I am one of those people that will probably go 1-20 and then shortly there after TR for another past life bonus. As Dagolar says the only people who should really have a problem with the new system will be people who sit at level 25 and max out all their Epic Destinies and then decide they want to TR again.

[HarveyMilk]

I'd still like to see some kind of bonus, tied in to lower level FR content, that relates TRing to the Destinies, to Epic xp. Some way to synergize between TR and Epic levels, in order to tie them together.

Maybe it's as simple as an xp bonus, or something cosmetic, but these things are more fun when there are synergies.

For example, there could be a tough level 25 quest, that upon completion, opens up a feat called Old Soul. And if you have that feat when you TR, there could be new lower level FR quests, that when you complete some difficult optional, you get a bonus to your epic xp that life (something modest, but appropriate) and/or something cosmetic.

We just want something to work towards and for that something to be well thought-out and fun. I prefer when mechanics are synergized and fun with good content design, rather than an obvious add-on.

[delsoboss]

Epic levels currently grant 2+(Int Mod) skill points, with all skills available as class skills.

/rant on
No way, you hear me? No. Way.
Skill points may be of little value to everyone else but not for me, i want my 8+int skill points per level, and you're going to give them to me!!!! Now!!
/rant off

Uff ... (deep breath) ... alright let's see i keep Move Silently, Hide, Open Lock, Balance, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Spot, Search, Disable Device, Bluff, Diplomacy maxed with spare points in Swim, Jump, Listen and Haggle ... what now?

You took away my fluffy roleplaying illusion about knowledge skills (my 12 int barb has knowledge: something, my 28 int rogue has .... <crickets> ....) now you're taking away my skill points too? Not fair I say, not fair.

If you got time, think about it if there is room to change, but please do something, i'm feeling the rogueness of my character slowly slipping away from his cold pixel hands.

[Dagolar]

You dont keep those epic levesl so getting one each life is a waste of that one level. You swill still have to do all 5 when you do your final life.

Then if you do all 5 and a new class comes out and you want their past life you have to do all 5 again to get back to 25.

This is where I have the big issue with this system it discourages tr'ing once youve got to lev 25 and encourages people on a tr grind to never play the new content until they are done.

I'd still like to see some kind of bonus, tied in to lower level FR content, that relates TRing to the Destinies, to Epic xp. Some way to synergize between TR and Epic levels, in order to tie them together.

Maybe it's as simple as an xp bonus, or something cosmetic, but these things are more fun when there are synergies.

For example, there could be a tough level 25 quest, that upon completion, opens up a feat called Old Soul. And if you have that feat when you TR, there could be new lower level FR quests, that when you complete some difficult optional, you get a bonus to your epic xp that life (something modest, but appropriate) and/or something cosmetic.

We just want something to work towards and for that something to be well thought-out and fun. I prefer when mechanics are synergized and fun with good content design, rather than an obvious add-on.

Proposed solutions Here and Here.

[HarveyMilk]

Proposed solutions Here and Here.

Right, well, we have to keep pressing the point, because it seems the devs don't realize that Epic Destinies unlocking is not enough of an incentive to get TR-oriented players to run to level 25 before they TR. And we NEED these players to at least consider running to 25, with some carrot that gives them a bonus in their next life, in order to make sure we have people running ALL the content.

DDO is a special animal in the MMO world. It's the kind of game that rewards players for having characters at all level groups in order to play with their friends regardless of what levels they are at. Having SOMETHING for hitting level 25 before a TR is very important for cohesion. Plus, it's just FUN that way.

[Thrudh]

As a designer myself, I can say that Turbine's approach in the matter makes perfect sense from a design-viewpoint.
The rest is all specific to individual preferences, which this thread offers an outlet of expression for.

This. The design is very good for most people... The people who shooting for completionist or 6+ TRs may not have the same outlet of joining their guildies for few end-game raids between TRs... That's unfortunate, but it really affects very few people...

And you guys are such grinders, you'll make it work anyway. I bet your multi-TR level 21s with tons of gear will be able to handle level 25 raids built for one life level 25s

I think the fact you can make SOME progress that you keep forever when leveling from 20-25 is very good.

[Thrudh]

So when you TR right now, do you keep any of your XP? Do you start out as a level 13 or something? How is this in any way different from what we have now?
I really don't understand what everyone is complaining about. You get to keep some part of the XP for your efforts, which is more than we can say at the moment.
It's a good system. It rewards working off some epics before you TR. You lose nothing that you wouldn't fully expect to lose, and you get to keep something that you should have no reason to expect to keep.

I agree.

[Thrudh]

I disagree, TR is a choice but made for us by someone else. TRing is practically mandatory to function properly. lev20Wizard without 1-2wizard pastlifes? good luck penetrating mobs spell resistance.

TRing is NOT mandatory... And the gains past TRing 1-2 times are very incremental. These changes will not hurt people who TR 1-4 times...

It's only a big deal to the people who want to TR 10+ times.

[SableShadow]

TRing is NOT mandatory... And the gains past TRing 1-2 times are very incremental. These changes will not hurt people who TR 1-4 times...

It's only a big deal to the people who want to TR 10+ times.

And only a big deal if they *also* want to grind at the cap ... just like it is now. A change in magnitude, not in category.

TR for benefits rather than fixes was always a mechanic with problems, since it splits the player base.

[Jaxom_Faux]

This. The design is very good for most people... The people who shooting for completionist or 6+ TRs may not have the same outlet of joining their guildies for few end-game raids between TRs... That's unfortunate, but it really affects very few people...

And you guys are such grinders, you'll make it work anyway. I bet your multi-TR level 21s with tons of gear will be able to handle level 25 raids built for one life level 25s

I think the fact you can make SOME progress that you keep forever when leveling from 20-25 is very good.

This. I would hazard to bet a fully geared completionist TR at 20/21 could hold it's own in a lvl 25 raid.

[bhgiant]

Appreciate the post, but at this point we won't be entertaining such a change. I threw the idea out to see what came back and between the feedback and discussions here, we will leave TR as a level 20/heroic requirement.

Thank you . I say let's just see how it all plays out. I'm guessing it won't be such a big deal once people try it out.

[Thrudh]

If I tr its for a benefit.

Under the new system I can tr at lev 20 for the same benefit.

If you've gone over 20 tr'ing is still the same benefit but it takes much more work to get back to where you were.

The cost of tr'ing has increased while the benefit stays the same once you go over 20. Therefore either staying at 20 to tr or leveling to 25 and not tr'ing anymore becomes the ideals and creates a big rift between the people who enjoy tr'ing and those who play at endgame. And for those that enjoy both you have lost the opportunity to experience both on that character without a much larger xp grind.

Yep, but not the end of the world. Levels 1-20 are a lot faster than they used to be... It's probably a net wash in time spent.... And you are STILL going to want to build up your epic destinies...

Every one of you guys who TRs 10+ times are the same people who are going to want to max out every epic destiny. So TRing 1-25 multiple times is not a terrible deal.

[LeLoric]

Ok I am going to be a bit long worded here but I want to make my position as clear as possible and be done with it.

When you tr there is a cost. That cost is the amount of time and effort it takes to get back to where you are. For a level 20 that cost is ~3.1 mil xp or ~4.3 mil xp.

Now for anyone who has advanced past level 20 that cost will be increased by an value x which is the amount that they had earned.

That additional x cost comes with no additional benefit. For anyone who says you can advance a destiny that is irrelevant as you can advance a destiny just the same if you didnt tr and stayed at your current level. The only way this would be a variable in our cost is if the only way to get the extra destinies is by repeating the 21-25 process which is not the case.

Now when costs increase invariably demand falls. Sure some will still do it and those are the ones who say that they are ok with it. However there are those who think that the cost no longer equal the benefits and therefore will no choose to absorb those costs. The fact that there are quite a few posters even here in disagreement with the sytem reflects that.

This effects everyone.

For turbine it means less store sales and that means less income which equates to so many other things. It also means people tend to stay at cap longer which means people growing bored of content faster etc and more likely to go check out another game.

For players it means less people in the releveling process. That directly affects those who wish to tr as there choices of people to level with are diminished. It affects newer players who will have less experienced players to get them through to cap which means a lessened amoutn of new people reaching and joining the endgame process to replace those that leave through attrition.

Theres also economic repurcussions like less need for cannith crafted items and the likes for lower levels but thats another subject that gets way too long winded.

So really even if you are okay with the change it doesnt mean that it might not affect you in a negative way.