Epic Destinies

[maddmatt70]

So, completionists are aberrations? And you assume that completionists don't play more than one character theyd want at 25 as well?

First, The statements I've highlighted in red seem like contradictions to me, and I have no idea what your standpoint, as a result, is.

One of my greatest fears with a new grind like this is the power level gain from it is huge and the grind is so immense that I am forced to just play 1-3 characters. I have a feeling that the power gain from levels 21 to 25 and with the destinies, etc that this is going to be a greater power gain then just gettting some past lives. I am concerned that the devs and some of the players want to make this a massive grind that a player will have to spend alot of gametime on each character they want to get to level 25.

This concern by several players is that they have to regrind 21-25 everytime - well if the devs make level 21-25 not that much of a grind then their concern becomes a lot less warranted. It is talk that this should be a really big grind from 21-25 from yourself and others that bothers me. I really enjoy playing 10 or so characters actively and they are competitive with players with many past lives whether they are 32 pt build or my 5th life divine, but who knows next update if the grind from 21-25 is obscene and the power level gain is so great then I may be forced to just play 1-3 characters which irks the heck out of me.

[Jacobius]

One of my greatest fear with a new grind like this is the power level gain from it is huge and the grind is so immense that I am forced to just play 1-3 characters. I have a feeling that the power gain from levels 21 to 25 and with the destinies, etc that this is going to be a greater power gain then just gettting some past lives. I am concerned that the devs and some of the players want to make this a massive grind that a player will have to spend alot of gametime on each character they want to get to level 25.

This concern by several players is that they have to regrind 21-25 everytime - well if the devs make level 21-25 not that much of a grind then their concern becomes a lot less warranted. It is talk that this should be a really big grind from 21-25 from yourself and others that bothers me. I really enjoy playing 10 or so characters actively and they are competitive with players with many past lives whether they are 32 pt build or my 5th life divine, but who knows next update if the grind from 21-25 is obscene and the power level gain is so great.

Absolutely agree one of the things that has kept me playing this game is I am not tied to one toon grinding away for the last piece of epic gear to make it viable. I can play a variety of builds and not feel like none of them are worth playing.

[DeafeningWhisper]

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

Actually, since in the future all new content will be epic only (meaning the game will really start at cap), why not simply reduce the exp required to lvl to 20?

[Dagolar]

One of my greatest fear with a new grind like this is the power level gain from it is huge and the grind is so immense that I am forced to just play 1-3 characters. I have a feeling that the power gain from levels 21 to 25 and with the destinies, etc that this is going to be a greater power gain then just gettting some past lives. I am concerned that the devs and some of the players want to make this a massive grind that a player will have to spend alot of gametime on each character they want to get to level 25.

This concern by several players is that they have to regrind 21-25 everytime - well if the devs make level 21-25 not that much of a grind then their concern becomes a lot less warranted. It is talk that this should be a really big grind from 21-25 from yourself and others that bothers me. I really enjoy playing 10 or so characters actively and they are competitive with players with many past lives whether they are 32 pt build or my 5th life divine, but who knows next update if the grind from 21-25 is obscene and the power level gain is so great then I may be forced to just play 1-3 characters which irks the heck out of me.

I do have one suggestion, based on this and similar notes.

Why not simply decrease the xp requirements for epic levels? It's the destinies we're after anyway, and they're a lengthy farm that'll exceed a run through of the epic levels by far, anyway.

The level gains from the levels aren't noteworthy enough to make the change a concern, so the only thing we lose is the grind up, and the individuality of lower level quests to higher level.

As for the grind- I favor it for the sense of accomplishment, at those high levels, but losing it isn't all that awful a thing overall.

As far as the last point- the variable difficulty settings on post-20 quests ought be able to make up for that element.

So..

Edit: As an example; Making it equivalent to gaining a TR3 level 18->20 progression (approx. 1 mil heroic xp, versus projected 2-5 million). Or, if we want to take it further, the simple 500k approximate for 19->20.
(Again, I'm in favor of some degree of the grind, but this approach seems to resolve all noted concerns most simply and efficiently)

[Jacobius]

Actually, since in the future all new content will be epic only (meaning the game will really start at cap), why not simply reduce the exp required to lvl to 20?

Why do you say all future content will be epic only???

[Calebro]

Actually, since in the expansion all new content will be epic only....

fify
New content in the future will not be epic only. The Expansion will be epic only. The Expansion is not the future of the game. It's one update. The following update will not be epic only.

[MrCow]

Pardon the crappy formatting:

At each epic level you gain the following bonuses:

Level       HP        Saves       BAB          Feats      Ability Increases
21         +10          -          +1          Feat	
22         +10         +1          -		
23         +10          -          +1		
24         +10         +1          -           Feat       Ability Increase
25         +10          -          +1

Characters that are level 21 or higher may select Epic or Heroic feats as their level 21 and 24 feat selections.

Just a point of curiosity. I've noticed there is no mention of skill points (one of the core things gained when obtaining a new level). How are skill improvements being handled in the Epic levels?

[Theolin]

First of all, I just want to say thanks to Durnak, all other TR'ers, and everyone else for remaining civil and constructive in this thread. It truly is something to see such a rapidly growing thread filled with so much intense passion and debate without anyone resorting to, well, undesirable behaviors. (hopefully I didn't just jinx it).

I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

My main concern is time it takes to be able to start my next life ... since I am grinding out several 18ish all together(about 2/3 there) for one of my chars

Probably my biggest concern is that becasue of play time & the time I get to play at I end up soloing a huge amount of my lives. This is for several reasons

1. If I TR with a few they either out level me or I out level them
2. PUGing has some serious annoyances for both me and the not so good players things like speed, knowledge, HPs, deaths, general playstyle between groups
3. It is just faster not to group
4. If I think I am going to be called away, its just nicer to not join a group
5. XP penalties (for both level differences / time to complete quest) (Don't really worry about the death one)
6. ???
7. profit

So this means I almost always do quests Level -2 on elite for max XP BB runs and seems to be the fastest way for me to level.
This usually means that there is a small subset of the server population I can/will group with.

Now we get to my main issues

IF I have to do epics before I can TR then who can I group with, and is there enough of them with similar skill/gear/??? levels?
Is this going to make TRing more of a grind? (personally its still a bit to much from about level 12 up and gets worse as your level gets higher- even with the new bonuses - which I am very grateful for btw)
If I have to go to 25 do I now have to grind out all that epic gear that I have not done yet just to TR?

So I really just do not want to see the whole get to 25 before TRing happen

I have always looked at the system and said ...
I will grind out my past lives then when I am done I will grind out my epic gear.

This seems to be the way it has been set up, so that is the plan I have followed.

[Dagolar]

fify
New content in the future will not be epic only. The Expansion will be epic only. The Expansion is not the future of the game. It's one update. The following following update will not be epic only.

Fixed. Update 15 (the next update, now that the expansion has been retitled to Update 14) is slated to have another epic raid.

[Cyr]

Probably just me, but I'm not understanding your reasoning. If you hit level 25 now and we release the new enhancements later, why does that require you to TR again? I could understand if you said LR, but TR I don't get.

LR costs money. TR does not.

LR does not rectify race issues or alignment issues. TR does.

LR is level swap limited. TR is not.

Basically if you have, like me, a dwarven fighter kensai the most recently discussed racial PrE of SD would be pretty useless to you. It has no synergy since another race could still have that PrE as a fighter kensai build. So basically the build becomes substandard as a dps (kensai) would be far better off being a horc or helf. Now that was already true, but the enhancment change would pile on the racial PrE choice also which is a huge deal.

There is no fixing that with an LR.

Less severe case. Deep multiclass build. New enhancement system from what little we have seen has a strong potential to make many of these really gimped compared to more focused builds. Would take multiple LR hearts to rectify for non trivial cash.

Just two basic cases that are based upon what little we know so far.

[bbqzor]

Probably just me, but I'm not understanding your reasoning. If you hit level 25 now and we release the new enhancements later, why does that require you to TR again? I could understand if you said LR, but TR I don't get.

The TR issue with the enhancement redo has to do with race selection. Given that races will allow differing sets of prestige enhancements (at last check anyhow), which combination of race + class you desire is almost wholly up in the air, given that both the enhancements will change, and access to those enhancements will change.

For example, if a Half Orc Barbarian would rather become a Dwarf Barbarian because after the new enhancements the Dwarf Barb could take Stalwart Defender to get his Barb HP up a lot, that would require a TR. And someone whos a Dwarf now because of that possibility may need to TR later if you decide such a combo is bad and make stance and rage not stack. And if elves get something new no one sees coming, maybe they both decide to turn into Falchion barbs instead to use the new elf thingy.

Basically, until its actually out, we just don't know what we are going to want to do. And with no way to reset race other than TR, and a full fourth (iirc) of your enhancement trees currently tied to race, its a sword of Damocles over anyone looking at level 20 (25?) builds.

[Audita_Querela]

Some of the Destinies will have spell point increases, either as automatically granted abilities or available in the trees. Some won't.

You can sort of think of the Destinies as if they're Epic Prestige Classes, and convert the five "Epic" levels you take into "Legendary Dreadnought" or "Exalted Angel".

I've seen reference to a number of the Destinies themselves, but not one listing of each of them or their intended abilities. So far I've heard of the Legendary Dreadnought, Exalted Angel, Grandmaster of Flowers, Draconic... something for casters, Shadowdancers, etc.

Have I just missed where all this info is at or is it still forthcoming?

[Eladrin]

Just a point of curiosity. I've noticed there is no mention of skill points (one of the core things gained when obtaining a new level). How are skill improvements being handled in the Epic levels?

Epic levels currently grant 2+(Int Mod) skill points, with all skills available as class skills.

[HungarianRhapsody]

First of all, I just want to say thanks to Durnak, all other TR'ers, and everyone else for remaining civil and constructive in this thread. It truly is something to see such a rapidly growing thread filled with so much intense passion and debate without anyone resorting to, well, undesirable behaviors. (hopefully I didn't just jinx it).

I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

I do not find this idea appealing in any way.

Instead of TRing at 20 after 4.3 million XP, your suggestion would be to have us TR at 25 after significantly more than 4.3 million XP. Even with a discount on levels 15-20, it would still end up with a lot more time between TRs than we currently have.

I like the idea of Heroic levels and Epic levels. If you are going to make TR happen at 25 instead of 20, then there really wouldn't be any difference between Heroic levels and Epic levels at all.

[karl_k0ch]

Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

Yes, and I still think this is a good idea: Either you hop onto the TR train, or you join the Epic Grind. You can choose your kind of grind.

I do no think that adding more grind (which it would be to include levels 21-25) to allow a TR is a good thing.

I like the proposed system: Level 20 is a branching point. If you make, at a later time, a different choice (TR instead of Epics), you will have to work for your Epic levels again - it is a new life after all. I see the past-life'd Epic Destinies as a nice remnant of a former life, but you will have to work in order to get them back to full potential. The same is true if you TR from a level 20 wizard to a level 1 wizard.

[MaximumCharisma]

I also agree that making the epic levels either WAY less exp than what you seem to have in mind or FINALLY making harder/higher level content award more exp.

Basically, consider all the epic content that is available now, then say make the exp awarded such that 1-2 runs through all of them on the hardest setting caps the epic level part.

Adjust the destiny exp to a slightly different system or make it take a ton of exp to unlock destinies.

I want to be able to alt and TR when desired, not be stuck with one Main char, which really after a while steals the feeling of DnD out of the game and makes it like other MMO's but more buggy and less content. *zing*

[Cyr]

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

That would work well as long as the total xp required to reach cap on a double TR was ~ the same as now. Otherwise all you are really talking about is making TRing dramatically less attractive compared to now. It is also horrible design to have any reward that is alot easier to get in the past. Yeah, I guess I don't see how this could work well. Level cap raises would force this issue again...it just does not make sense to do this honestly.

The root issue here is the loss of something when you TR. It is the exact same issue as losing tomes was. Let TRs keep all forms of epic experience and there is no longer this disincentive to TR. The idea here is players do not like to feel like they had to lose something they had earned nor do they like to feel like if they had only hopped on that bus earlier they would have been done with the grind twice as fast because the developers decided to make something more grindy.

There is one other solution and that is to add an additional carrot for TRs if the decision is made to have TRs level through 1-25 (or higher as cap goes up). That would be to grant additional minor bonuses to them based upon the higher caps. That way for additional grind they would be gaining more. That at least makes it feel like you were not cheated by not TRing quickly before the level cap was raised as you get more for your effort. I have offered lots of different TR enhancement type suggestions in the past. This would be a good place to stick those in. Better would be if a TR could choose to jump ship before hitting the higher ship and only get the lesser bonuses (but lose their normal epic xp since they did not stick it out)...so a TR could go to 20 TR for normal bonus or stick it out to 25 and upon TRing get normal bonus plus something extra for the level 25 cap.

The nice thing about the second suggestion is that it could be added after the xpack goes live with guidance that something like it was coming.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

First of all, I just want to say thanks to Durnak, all other TR'ers, and everyone else for remaining civil and constructive in this thread. It truly is something to see such a rapidly growing thread filled with so much intense passion and debate without anyone resorting to, well, undesirable behaviors. (hopefully I didn't just jinx it).

I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

Personally, as someone who only recently has been contemplating a completionist toon, and a person who, up until the recent XP bonus options, has thought anything past a 2nd life TR is too much of a grind, I am not sure I would like this. First off, I get the idea that the trade-off in XP would not be equal...while I like the idea of making the 15+ grind less of a hassle, making a TR require epic levels as well is too much. Second, I am pretty sure that it would be much more difficult for a TR to grind through the epics as well, either for lack of groups, or sheer difficulty for those of us that are not fully geared before we start TRing.

What about either allowing some of the epic bonuses we get, like the HP, BAB, and/or Save bonuses from the epic levels themselves, or something of the sort, be stackable and work like past life feats? Perhaps for every TR who reaches 25 before TRing, you get a choice of a stackable +1 BAB, +1 saves, or +10 HP, stackable once for every unique past life, or for every 3rd of the same past life, stackable as many times as the total amount of classes in the game at the time. That would allow a completionist who actually levelled all the way to 25 each time to get an additional bonus, albeit small, each time they went all the way. The nice thing about this is it would be small enough that the majority of players would probably not deem it necessary, but for those who want to go all the way, the fact that it could stack so many times would perhaps make it worth it. It would be alot of work, but you could end up with an additional 130HP, or +13 saves, or +13 BAB for your melee wizard, or any combination of the above.

Dunno...just shooting from the hip, since now that I feel like the grind is fun rather than a grind, I don't want someone to go back and make it more of a grind again. I, for one, would just not worry about hitting 25 until I am done with all my TRs...any Epic XP and destinies I pick up along the way are just icing on the cake. I do, however, agree that there shoud be something for those of us who already finished their completionists, or thought they were done with their TRs, or who just want to run a ton of epics between TRs. In the end, though, I would hate to see something that would effect less than 5% of the population negatively change things for the rest of us negatively.

[die]

One of my greatest fears with a new grind like this is the power level gain from it is huge and the grind is so immense that I am forced to just play 1-3 characters. I have a feeling that the power gain from levels 21 to 25 and with the destinies, etc that this is going to be a greater power gain then just gettting some past lives. I am concerned that the devs and some of the players want to make this a massive grind that a player will have to spend alot of gametime on each character they want to get to level 25.

This concern by several players is that they have to regrind 21-25 everytime - well if the devs make level 21-25 not that much of a grind then their concern becomes a lot less warranted. It is talk that this should be a really big grind from 21-25 from yourself and others that bothers me. I really enjoy playing 10 or so characters actively and they are competitive with players with many past lives whether they are 32 pt build or my 5th life divine, but who knows next update if the grind from 21-25 is obscene and the power level gain is so great then I may be forced to just play 1-3 characters which irks the heck out of me.

I have a filling there will not be enough quest too even get too lv 25 at first say ther is enough too get too 21.. then bring up the guy's you are going too lv too that lv.

Then a new mod comes out that take's you too 22 and so forth just like when the cap was 11 14 17 you get the point

[voodoogroves]

I think the reaction now is the combination of epic xp and levels combined with quest levels. The more I think about it the more I think that if 20 through 25 could group without penalty, that may be enough. Grind itself is ok as
as long as grouping isn't restricted.