Epic Destinies

[maddmatt70]

Except for arties, those are worthless since they no longer double the damage die of his greataxe and wouldn't even make it into his raid

Upon further reflection they have to change this. I have never been more bored as a player then when my job is to buff one player far above everyone else. It should never be 11 people supporting one person in a raid. As a bard I enjoy making sure everyone has their buffs from main tank, to off tank to spellcaster or etc. If it becomes my job to make sure this person is elevated all the time with the maximum buffs and others are an afterthought - just flat out nooooo..

[SableShadow]

If it becomes my job to make sure this person is elevated all the time with the maximum buffs and others are an afterthought - just flat out nooooo..

There's a belt that fixes all that ... just sayin'.

[LeLoric]

But THAT coordination comes from the motivation that if you don't do what you are supposed to do when you are supposed to do it, the raid will fail.

What sort of motivation will you provide to a team so they coordinate so that only ONE melee gets the kill? My DPS is better than your DPS? In full guild raids I could see that sort of coordination, but in PUGs or even semi-PUGs, you're going to have a much harder time proving that if "X" melee doesn't get the buff and not "Y" melee, then the raid will fail. Furthermore, only the leader would be able to make that command and if the leader has no know-how as to who would be best or just doesn't care, then I just can't see it happening.

And as far as my competing theory, it can be relevant with at least 2 Dreadnaughts, though more reasonably with at least 3.

And again its necessary to mention the issue you'll have between arcanes vs. melee with high DPS and instakilling spells. What are you going to tell them to do, "Sit around and twiddle your thumbs?" or better yet "CC, do nothing, but CC." Oh joy, we're back to the no more than 2 arcanes in a group mentality.

Sorry, not trying to be a negative nancy here, I'm just concerned is all and better to be concerned with things still in development.

So even in a situation where noone cares who gets the kill, if you are a high dps character chances are you get 1 reset anyways in a situation like this. So you get up to 10 seconds of +25% and another 10 seconds of +50% plus up to 20 seconds of 50% dodge (not sure what this entails exactly but it sounds like a 50% miss chance for mobs.)

If ya hit that second tick you are even more likely to get a third as your dps is higher and so on and so on as long as you have the mobs to kill.

For me as long as you get that second tick its more than worth it.

A stalwart can also get good use of the ability as an oh **** skill while tanking too if it is indeed a 50% miss chance.

This is all speculation right now but from the initial wording to me it seems like an excellent ability. Its also relevant to the epic moment others get and what else is involved in the other dreadnaught abilities compared to other trees.

As for casters they shouldnt be instakilling mobs the melees are attacking anyways in any situation with multiple mobs. Which is the only time youd want to use this ability anyways.

[Cetus]

Looks great especially if it allows interesting multi classing to become viable again - battlemages(!) etc.


Hey 2 quick questions while the devs are looking;

1. How much xp does each destiny level cost? Is it like going from 18-20 on a TR2? More? Less?

2. If this is all as powerful as it sounds could we revisit the completionist costs a feat - +2 skills and stats starts to get less attractive when we can punch people into the future - why bother!? (You can ignore this one just a personal pet peeve of mine)

N

Sup buddy,

Yea, the completionist completely dissipates in power as a feat now with access to epic levels, which, is probably safe to assume will require much less investment and resources that it is to acquire the completionist feat in present day ddo, and much less than it was in the past ddo when we grinded tr's without bravery or experience tomes.

The devs didn't seem to notice the xp gap question from my post either. It would be nice to know if, in fact, leaving off some high non-epic xp quests like reavers refuge would be a good strategy for a level 20 character to kickstart their progress into epic levels or not.

[Zzevel]

When the level cap was 16 you could gain XP all the way up to 1 point shy of 17 before XP 'accumulation' stopped, when the cap was changed to 20 your XP gain stoped right at 20. when are you going to update the xp gain again? with the Xpack? We lose all the exp we could be gaining for level 21...

I motion you turn on the XP gain so we can get level 21 -1XP now as it was with the level 16 cap, 12 cap... etc Now that would make A LOT of people happy today! It would give us something to do while we wait for Xpack1!

[Angelus_dead]

Characters that are level 20 can visit a Fatespinner and select an Epic Destiny if they have acquired access to them. (It's part of the MotU bundles.)

So is a character without Epic Destiny access at all acceptable as a level 25 teammate? Is this pretty much an obligatory purchase to advance 20+?

[MadFloyd]

Is there anyway you can give us an idea of how epic leveling is in practice. Like, amount of xp needed, or whether or not xp will qualify from non-epic quests (I beleive I recall the anwer was yes to that).

We haven't settled on numbers yet but the epic levels will require a lot more XP than heroic levels. Destiny levels will be somewhat smaller.

XP from heroic quests will certainly count but won't be the optimal way of advancing due to the delta in XP required to level.

[Dagolar]

Sample Twist of Fate costs:

Unlock First Twist of Fate: 1 Fate Point
Upgrade First Twist to Max Tier 2: 2 Fate Points
Upgrade First Twist to Max Tier 3: 3 Fate Points

Unlock Second Twist of Fate: 2 Fate Points
Upgrade Second Twist to Max Tier 2: 3 Fate Points
Upgrade Second Twist to Max Tier 3: 4 Fate Points

Unlock Third Twist of Fate: 3 Fate Points
Upgrade Third Twist to Max Tier 2: 4 Fate Points
Upgrade Third Twist to Max Tier 3: 5 Fate Points

Great looking setup, and great feedback, so far.

Looking at the quoted section, a quick confirmation:
-We're limited to three individual Twists of Fate (to start), each of which can be then upgraded using remaining Fate points.
-The Twists are equitable, meaning the first one is just as potent as the second or third, thus benefiting us to increase the first one over the second, and both first and second over third, due to the increased cost.
-These points are gained at 1 per 3 ED levels, to a total of (5*10/3 = 16 points), allowing us to do the following:

*Max 1st and 2nd twist (with one point left hanging)
*Get to 2nd tier in all three (with one point left hanging- it's a theme!)
*Max 1st and get two ranks in 2nd and one rank in 3rd (with TWO points left hanging! Yay!)


It looks like a solid system. I love the permanent cross-destiny gains, the reason to farm out each destiny, the versatility and ease of adaptability, even the demo graphical layouts- all of it. In the end, the only thing left to have hold outs on is how the destinies themselves are designed. And, given the "can't max all abilities in a tree, can hotswap, and can pick and choose abilities both within a tree and outside using Twists", any such problems should be easily worked around.

Great work on the design-
I'm looking forward to it.

One other point of confirmation:
I assume Twists can be 'reset', especially given the hold-over on Destinies for TRing?

[LeLoric]

We haven't settled on numbers yet but the epic levels will require a lot more XP than heroic levels. Destiny levels will be somewhat smaller.

XP from heroic quests will certainly count but won't be the optimal way of advancing due to the delta in XP required to level.

Thats pretty sad if you are requiring the level process form 20-25 if you tr to have it be a pretty significant xp grind. That both discourages people from tr'ing someone who is already 25 as well as discourage someone from leveling to 25 when they still have a tr or two they want to do.

If we are talking each level being like 19-20 on a double tr type xp.

Personally I think you should give the 21-25 a one time only deal just like the destiny as that still encourages tr's as well as playing at end game whereas this way it further seperates those that like the tr grind from those that like end game.

[Nibor]

When the level cap was 16 you could gain XP all the way up to 1 point shy of 17 before XP 'accumulation' stopped, when the cap was changed to 20 your XP gain stoped right at 20. when are you going to update the xp gain again? with the Xpack? We lose all the exp we could be gaining for level 21...

I motion you turn on the XP gain so we can get level 21 -1XP now as it was with the level 16 cap, 12 cap... etc Now that would make A LOT of people happy today! It would give us something to do while we wait for Xpack1!

If you want something to do similar to that, you could just go grind slayers up to a few kills below the top tier. Then when the Xpack comes, *bam*bam*bam* you could fire a bunch of them off.
Of course, this requires a lot of mindless slayer grinding and no XP bonus for the rares you're killing on the way, so it's a terrible idea, but if you really really really want to be working towards epic destiny XP before the Xpack comes out...

[maddmatt70]

Thats pretty sad if you are requiring the level process form 20-25 if you tr to have it be a pretty significant xp grind. That both discourages people from tr'ing someone who is already 25 as well as discourage someone from leveling to 25 when they still have a tr or two they want to do.

If we are talking each level being like 19-20 on a double tr type xp.

Personally I think you should give the 21-25 a one time only deal just like the destiny as that still encourages tr's as well as playing at end game whereas this way it further seperates those that like the tr grind from those that like end game.

It does not discourage trring because epic xp holds through trs. As pointed out by devs it is totally separate so for example if someone reaches level 22 then decideds to tr when they get back up to level 20 they automatically become level 22..

[MadFloyd]

So is a character without Epic Destiny access at all acceptable as a level 25 teammate? Is this pretty much an obligatory purchase to advance 20+?

Depends. I think that might depend on character build, playing/grouping preferences, etc. Obligatory is a strong word.

Would I recommend it? Yes. It's pretty difficult to build a cool advancement system that doesn't play a signficant role in determing a character's overall power. After all, if at the end of the day it didn't add much, why would you bother?

[BananaHat]

But THAT coordination comes from the motivation that if you don't do what you are supposed to do when you are supposed to do it, the raid will fail.

What sort of motivation will you provide to a team so they coordinate so that only ONE melee gets the kill? My DPS is better than your DPS? In full guild raids I could see that sort of coordination, but in PUGs or even semi-PUGs, you're going to have a much harder time proving that if "X" melee doesn't get the buff and not "Y" melee, then the raid will fail. Furthermore, only the leader would be able to make that command and if the leader has no know-how as to who would be best or just doesn't care, then I just can't see it happening.

And as far as my competing theory, it can be relevant with at least 2 Dreadnaughts, though more reasonably with at least 3.

And again its necessary to mention the issue you'll have between arcanes vs. melee with high DPS and instakilling spells. What are you going to tell them to do, "Sit around and twiddle your thumbs?" or better yet "CC, do nothing, but CC." Oh joy, we're back to the no more than 2 arcanes in a group mentality.

Sorry, not trying to be a negative nancy here, I'm just concerned is all and better to be concerned with things still in development.

As far as I see it, these "Epic Moments" will probably be long cooldown, very powerful abilities. They can probably turn a potential fail into a save, depending on exactly what they do. It is not so much of a "let me demonstrate how awesome I am and kill everything" but more of a "let's have the Dreadnought take the next few waves, everyone else help out over here." It probably allows characters to do amazing things occasionally which, when coordinated properly, will allow groups to tackle very tough challenges. I am hoping that while someone is activating their Epic Moment that everyone else will still be scrambling with whatever else the situation is throwing at them since, you know, someone had to use their Epic Moment to help out. I just hope they don't become a "Too Good To Use" ability though and thus are always saved for a potentially more dire situation.

2 Dreadnoughts? Have them alternate their killamajig. When one's ability runs out, have the other fire theirs up. Teamwork: it means 2 + 2 = 5. I expect some sort of level of coordination in a raid if it is going to succeed. Yes, PUGs are a little more sketchy than guild runs, but that is to be expected. I'm sure these new abilities will find all sorts of fun and unique uses in raids.

Also, suggested Epic Moment for the barbarian-themed one:
Crate-and-Barrel Smashing Co. - Smashes all breakables in the dungeon. With your face. All barrels drop a Tasty Ham. All explosive barrels drop a Kargon's Tasty Ham. All Hams in the dungeon are immediately consumed.

Now that is epic.

[Cetus]

Thats pretty sad if you are requiring the level process form 20-25 if you tr to have it be a pretty significant xp grind. That both discourages people from tr'ing someone who is already 25 as well as discourage someone from leveling to 25 when they still have a tr or two they want to do.

If we are talking each level being like 19-20 on a double tr type xp.

Personally I think you should give the 21-25 a one time only deal just like the destiny as that still encourages tr's as well as playing at end game whereas this way it further seperates those that like the tr grind from those that like end game.

I was under the impression that any epic level progress was never reset. TR'ing would have zero impact on your advancement in the epic context. Wouldn't it just pick right up where you left it pre-TR? Or was my understanding of that wrong?

I wouldn't want to hit level 25 in a weeks worth of work. It would be better if it took a while to get there, otherwise it isn't interesting in my opinion (as long as we don't have to redo anything, I would be completely against the idea of resetting epic progress as a result of TR'ing for obvious reasons).

[Angelus_dead]

After all, if at the end of the day it didn't add much, why would you bother?

So the question becomes: why allow people to advance to level 25 if they haven't purchased Epic Destiny?

That character is probably too weak to be a decent level 25 teammate, and yet is too high level to play level 20 content anymore... it's a trap.

[Ganak]

I must say to the Turbine team, well done on another huge leap forward for DDO.

I have to play my DDO Victory Song, even though Tolero and not Fernando broke the news.



If you weren't around prior to the launch of F2P you won't get it.




And hades no, I would never listen to that band in any other circumstance

[Cetus]

We haven't settled on numbers yet but the epic levels will require a lot more XP than heroic levels. Destiny levels will be somewhat smaller.

XP from heroic quests will certainly count but won't be the optimal way of advancing due to the delta in XP required to level.

Thanks a ton for your responsiveness MF. Always love the experience of real-time discourse with the devs.

[SableShadow]

I must say to the Turbine team, well done on another huge leap forward for DDO.

I have to play my DDO Victory Song, even though Tolero and not Fernando broke the news.



If you weren't around prior to the launch of F2P you won't get it.

Bwahahahahhahahaha! Well done.

And hades no, I would never listen to that band in any other circumstance

Oh, just *try* and get them out of your head.

[MadFloyd]

One other point of confirmation:
I assume Twists can be 'reset', especially given the hold-over on Destinies for TRing?

Yes.

[BananaHat]

We haven't settled on numbers yet but the epic levels will require a lot more XP than heroic levels. Destiny levels will be somewhat smaller.

XP from heroic quests will certainly count but won't be the optimal way of advancing due to the delta in XP required to level.

This sounds like epic quests will give you something like 10x xp than heroic quests and it will take 10x more xp for an epic level. So, sure, you can level with heroic quests, but epic quests will be more like the leveling speed we are used to.