Haste Pots and Clickies -- Kindly Use Them

[oogly54]

Drinking haste pots is not condusive to quality play. For me to stop attacking/moving 8 times for every one time you have to haste is reducing efficiency of the group, especially when you multiply that by 6 party members. 48 seconds on inactivity because you didnt want to take 1 second to cast haste. Clicky's take even longer to cast.

[Astraghal]

I think the OP's point was less about cheapness, because sure a nice extended 4-minute haste is cheaper to everyone, but rather the point to be made was that there should be a modicum of thank yous in the game. Just as I always thank the cleric for healing me, particularly if timely, the melee should be nicely asking for a haste. On my caster, I will generally haste as a group or call for a "hug for hage" but if the barbarian runs off, he's not getting it, and I will generally be loathe to give him a separate one as it gets expensive to have to be giving out multiple hastes each time.

It's their job or role to buff and heal, it really has nothing to do with courtesy. If I'm on my Bard and someone barks 'haste!', I will cast it without question. If I'm on my Fighter and I type 'haste' when I notice it has run out, it's because I don't use auto-attack or a microphone and typing extra words like 'please' costs DPS. So don't be surprised when I respond with 'now' instead of 'please' if you're in a group with me and ask 'what do you say?' once I've given you an order. You'll find it's the same in any competetive team based environment in the real world too, most people wouldn't have it any other way. I think it's Human nature to aspire to being efficient and effective at what you do.

[EllisDee37]

You haste addicts seriously need to get a melee alacrity item and 30% striders. Once you do, you'll realize that the "most useful buff in the game" isn't all that and a bag of chips.

My main is a melee, and I have never once asked for a haste. I figured out how to make myself run and attack faster without using consumables or relying on a buffbot. You can too.

[Asketes]

Finish the statement. Kinda expensive for new players at low levels. Once you get into the higher sets, you can easily afford it.

If I pull 50k on a slow night, and that is ML 12+ weapons only with my bard haggler, any player should be able to pull in 25K on any character a night just from weapons if they run the higher level stuff.

The second part of that was assumed

Even if they are just running Gianthold they may not be breaking even to keep themselves constantly hasted. They should easily, by that point (lvl 10/12+), be able to afford enough haste pots for most fights.

[TPICKRELL]

I almost never ask for haste, the only exception are in Raid beat down scenarios like Shroud part 5 when I'm out of my GS haste clickies. But, 30 second haste pots and clickies are very inefficient, the down time to equip the haste clickie, activate the clickie, and switch the item back will usually cost DPS.

I don't use pots other than at low levels, not because of the cost, but because its a very modest gain in DPS (if any) due to the lost swings while you are drinking the pot. I run mostly monks, so I have an easy out, I just switch to wind stance and carry on.

But. Hasting before a big fight is one of the most mana efficient spells in the game. I can understand the concept of not wanting to blow spell points on moving through the dungeon a little quicker, or even for the trash fights. But IMO refusing to use haste strategically is misguided. If you want to solo the quest and you can, go for it. Otherwise make the team more efficient.

[Missing_Minds]

The second part of that was assumed

Even if they are just running Gianthold they may not be breaking even to keep themselves constantly hasted. They should easily, by that point (lvl 10/12+), be able to afford enough haste pots for most fights.

*chuckles* true. But for us well established we understood you meant at the upper levels.

I do apologize if the tone came across rude as looking back I think it did. I just can see a new player seeing your original and wondering what the heck they are doing wrong when chances are they weren't doing anything wrong, they just honestly couldn't do it yet.

But I do advocate everyone to keep haste pots on hand, even just a small stock pile at low levels if you can. NOT for the aspect of haste but moreso to get rid of the effects of SLOW. I mean seriously, the buff of haste no where near compares to the debuff of slow.

[FranOhmsford]

Movement Speed - My casters all have Expeditious Retreat, Rangers get Longstrider, Every other character gets striders ASAP or Wands/Clickies of Expeditious - Haste makes no difference to me here.

Pot plat cost - On my lowbies I tend to keep a stack of Heroism, Barkskin +3 and Rage pots + Shield of Faith +3 if I can afford it - Haste? Really?

Extend - Nice to have but takes up a valuable feat slot - Tends to get swapped out around lvl 10 anyway.

I'm quite happy to keep haste available as one of my lvl 3 spells for high level content {it won't be extended unless I'm on my bards} But Rage, Heroism and either Fireball, Acid Blast or Frost Lance will come first {the first two come first for my bards too.}.

AD&D used to have a rule for haste where each time it was cast on you you would age one year - Making it a Hail Mary spell.
How I wish Haste hadn't become quite so ubiquitous in DDO.

EDIT: As for Displacement - No I'm not wasting mana displacing a full party every coupla minutes - If I've got it I'll happily displace the tank {if he/she wants displacing that is} and the Cleric/Healer but I won't even displace myself unless absolutely necessary.

[BruceTheHoon]

Think about it as an AoE DoT spell, that does 15% of damage of all non-casters put together. For 20 SP. I'd cast such spell.

With the price of potions, I've only ever used them on fights that matter. And fights that matter last longer than 30 seconds.
I won't hesitate to ask for haste before such fights. I did say ask, not demand.

[Grosbeak07]

I like haste in big fights (either lots of mobs or one nasty boss).

I don't need to be hasted to kill mob's in 1's and 2's.

To me this more of a debate of Solo vs Group play. In solo (or being self sufficent) using clickies and pots is highly desired and as a direct result of this being a video game. Those of us coming out of p&p D&D, would hardly ever hear as caster refuse the party a buff (other than for roleplaying purposes) and be told to go buy your own.

I wold love to see many of the easily acquired pots in the game go away and make casters more than just nukers (and then pikers when they run out of mana).

[Dolphious]

It changes with the updates, but there's no doubt that right now the D-bags have flocked to casters (some to FVS, but arcane casters mostly). This thread is case-in-point.

Unless it's a quest that just demands a caster I prefer not to have one in the group (unless it's someone I know is chill). The game isn't that hard, and I'd rather do without the prima donnas whining about how they soloing it "all the time" and how they can't be bothered to buff gimpy melees, etc.

It may come as a surprised, but many of us actually enjoy making the team effective and doing the quest as a unit rather than just showing off the uber skillz of your cookie cutter build-of-the-update.

My main is a bard, and I take pride in keeping the whole group buffed, and fighting effectively (and I can CC and heal pretty much any quest in the game if the Arcane or Divine decides they're too good for such a lowly task). And in my experience we win quests with both more efficiency and overall fun than the Uber-caster trying to do it all him or herself (of course in the strangely frequent event that these ubers die it's always the fault of the lag or another player).

Soloing is great, I solo regularly, but if you join a group IMO it's a lot more fun for everyone to play as a group.

[Psiandron]

I carry haste, heroism, rage(if applicable), and resist pots and/or wands all the time. My melees can buff themselves if necessary. I don't expect anything from a caster, but it sure is nice to get. Their buffs are way better than what I can give myself. Haste especially... if it's extended it's just the shizzel.

Whatever happened to haste and go? It doesn't happen all the time, but sometimes I get hasted right in the middle of a buffing session. That's just a caster wasting mana.

Oh yeah, clickies and pots don't take that long to use and if you're not getting haste from a caster you're crazy not to use them. And pots don't cost that much. If you've gotten to level 7 and have kept a haggle item, especially if you're in a guild they don't cost that much. Damage repair costs more.

[Astraghal]

It changes with the updates, but there's no doubt that right now the D-bags have flocked to casters (some to FVS, but arcane casters mostly). This thread is case-in-point.

Unless it's a quest that just demands a caster I prefer not to have one in the group (unless it's someone I know is chill). The game isn't that hard, and I'd rather do without the prima donnas whining about how they soloing it "all the time" and how they can't be bothered to buff gimpy melees, etc.

It may come as a surprised, but many of us actually enjoy making the team effective and doing the quest as a unit rather than just showing off the uber skillz of your cookie cutter build-of-the-update.

My main is a bard, and I take pride in keeping the whole group buffed, and fighting effectively (and I can CC and heal pretty much any quest in the game if the Arcane or Divine decides they're too good for such a lowly task). And in my experience we win quests with both more efficiency and overall fun than the Uber-caster trying to do it all him or herself (of course in the strangely frequent event that these ubers die it's always the fault of the lag or another player).

Soloing is great, I solo regularly, but if you join a group IMO it's a lot more fun for everyone to play as a group.

Well said and I agree 100%.

[Qaliya]

Whoever pointed out the other consumables for melees was correct. And I should have remembered that because I carry all of them, and I down CSW and lesser restore pots like water.

I still think it's fairly affordable. Try running a cleric as your first ever character and a first life melee seems like a breeze.

I agree that a caster with Extend is far more efficient than pots. But please do them a favor and don't ask for it every time your haste wears off. It really is not life-or-death essential, and you certainly can use pots for those in-between times.

[oogly54]

Movement Speed - My casters all have Expeditious Retreat, Rangers get Longstrider, Every other character gets striders ASAP or Wands/Clickies of Expeditious - Haste makes no difference to me here.

Pot plat cost - On my lowbies I tend to keep a stack of Heroism, Barkskin +3 and Rage pots + Shield of Faith +3 if I can afford it - Haste? Really?

Extend - Nice to have but takes up a valuable feat slot - Tends to get swapped out around lvl 10 anyway.

I'm quite happy to keep haste available as one of my lvl 3 spells for high level content {it won't be extended unless I'm on my bards} But Rage, Heroism and either Fireball, Acid Blast or Frost Lance will come first {the first two come first for my bards too.}.

AD&D used to have a rule for haste where each time it was cast on you you would age one year - Making it a Hail Mary spell.
How I wish Haste hadn't become quite so ubiquitous in DDO.

EDIT: As for Displacement - No I'm not wasting mana displacing a full party every coupla minutes - If I've got it I'll happily displace the tank {if he/she wants displacing that is} and the Cleric/Healer but I won't even displace myself unless absolutely necessary.

This is laughable. Haste increases movement speed by more than all the other mvoement speed syou listed. Haste makes all melee attackat a faster rate and is far superior to any buff you listed.I have 40 million plat, money isnt a factor. And i do keep haste pots, because of instances i am away from the caster when they cast, I am soloing, or other minor reasons.Being effcient is the reason you cast it. All parties are far worse without haste. I play a caster and have since day 1 of this game. If you dont keep your party hasted you are a liability to the party as you are not trying to keep the party as efficient as possible. I prefer party members to think of whats best for the party, not about how many spell points I would have if i do nothing useful.

[chodelord]

They should just remove the stupid circle and make mass buffs untargeted.

Instead all party members in range and LOS should get the buff.

Keep heals as targeted though just to keep divine players awake.

[Asketes]

*chuckles* true. But for us well established we understood you meant at the upper levels.

I do apologize if the tone came across rude as looking back I think it did. I just can see a new player seeing your original and wondering what the heck they are doing wrong when chances are they weren't doing anything wrong, they just honestly couldn't do it yet.

But I do advocate everyone to keep haste pots on hand, even just a small stock pile at low levels if you can. NOT for the aspect of haste but moreso to get rid of the effects of SLOW. I mean seriously, the buff of haste no where near compares to the debuff of slow.

Thanks for clarifying you make a valid point. I'll add the edit

[Cam_Neely]

You haste addicts seriously need to get a melee alacrity item and 30% striders. Once you do, you'll realize that the "most useful buff in the game" isn't all that and a bag of chips.

Not going to comment on the OP, not worth it, not going to change anyones minds. But this strawman is very weak.

Alacrity and 30% striders take up valuable item slots that could be used for other items that cause dmg. The haste spell opens those slots up. Its the same reason I carry a Resist Poison (which last 8 min, so not comparable to haste Pots) pot over slotting it on gear.

According to your weak rational, no one needs resists from the boat. Just slot resist 30 of each element on your gear and you are good to go. Should be able to cover that quite easily by dropping my greensteel items, guards, and eclaw items. Its for the good of the party. Plus I save all that time from not having to click on the items on the boat. Win/Win

[FranOhmsford]

Whoever pointed out the other consumables for melees was correct. And I should have remembered that because I carry all of them, and I down CSW and lesser restore pots like water.

I still think it's fairly affordable. Try running a cleric as your first ever character and a first life melee seems like a breeze.

I agree that a caster with Extend is far more efficient than pots. But please do them a favor and don't ask for it every time your haste wears off. It really is not life-or-death essential, and you certainly can use pots for those in-between times.

My first four characters:

1. Larystessian - Now 13 Wizard / 3 Rogue {Elf Archmage specced for traps}
2. Jelina - Now 17 Cleric / 3 Fighter {Human Battle Cleric}
3. Sylveria - Now 15 Rogue Mech / 3 Artificer / 2 Fighter
4. Enochpagett - Now 13 FavSoul / 4 Fighter {Started as a fighter - became a FavSoul when I bought FavSoul}.

Guess what - Jelina was by far the easiest to level - She's been lvl 20 for a long time now and will remain lvl 20 for quite a bit longer still.
Enoch will be TRd into a Paladin as soon as he hits 20.
Lary was levelling at about the same rate as Jelina up to lvl 8 then got left behind - He's been super hard to level through the early to mid teens.
Sylveria overtook Lary around lvl 8 but was only lvl 14 when I capped Jelina - Her final 3 levels were artificer and engendered a complete change of direction on a toon that was incredibly gimped past lvl 14.

Lary carries haste because he has space for it - He does have a sp problem with only 13 lvls of Wizard for lvl 16 quests so Haste will get cast at the end of my buffing setup to signify that I'm done and everyone can charge.
He didn't have space for it for a long time though - Other lvl 3 spells take priority at lower levels.

When it comes to my lowbies {I am an altoholic} I routinely go to House K and buy Heroism and Barkskin +3 and Rage pots + Shield of Faith +3s if needed and I can afford.
I pick up Cure Light to Cure Serious pots from questing and plenty of Lily Petals from running Tangleroot Slayer to 1500 on every toon.
If need be I'll grab a stack of Cure Serious Pots from House K but I much prefer to have a hireling around {far far cheaper}.


Haste pots are a waste of plat. {BTW check the movement buff - Pretty certain it's been nerfed and expeditious is faster anyway - certainly feels like it}.

[TPICKRELL]

Just for giggles, I threw together a very rough spreadsheet model to see what effect the haste pot has on total damage. Note the spreadsheet is really rough so I'm not posting the step by step derivations for the numbers, but I think it is close enough for the general discussion.

--- Corrected Numbers, sorry for the confusion ---

TWF no Alacrity net damage gained from a haste pot: 651 total damage over the 30 seconds of the pot

TWF Alacrity net damage gained from a haste pot: 9 total damage over the 30 seconds of the pot

TWF no alacrity haste from outside source: 908 total damage over 30 seconds

TWF alacrity haste from outside source: 296 total damage over 30 seconds

-------------------------------------------
The base model assumed that a pot took 1.5 seconds total non-swinging time to drink and was timed so that it did not affect the attack chain. Also assumed that on average each swing does 125 pts of total damage... Again, this is not meant to be 100% accurate, just a ballpark number for the purposes of the discussion.

[Grimlock]

No.

You are a caster. It takes a minimal amount of time/effort to ensure the entire party/raid is hasted at all times. This is something expected of a caster in a party. If we have to ask you to haste us more than a few times throughout a quest there is a problem. If the entire party groups up on you waiting for your to caste haste and you just stand there there is a problem. Expecting us to make our clickies, pots, and scrolls to keep us hasted throughout a quest/raid is ridiculous.