Tenser's transformation

[Chai]

Honestly I don't think this spell will be used by definite casters anyway. Echoes of Power means they will still have SP to burn when they completely run out and that little bit of extra sp will still equal more DPS than them meleeing unless they actually build for it... even then it would be close.

However... I was just throwing things out there and seeing what sticks. I am not attached to any of the ideas overall and will happily toss another out if someone thinks one is too "something" or another

Aesop

Echoes doesnt allow people to symbol of death / wail through content. Savants can throw their third level spell, AM can toss SLAs, and PM sla's cost HP + the aura is too much mana for echoes to cover.

Let them make a choice. Do they want melee + DOTs, or DC + DOTs. Giving them all 3 is insane.

Making tensers a viable spell is a great suggestion, but adding it on top of what casters can already do, rather than having them make a sacrifice for being able to have viable melee, is tossing the most powerful classes another bone.

More options is better, but that doesnt mean allowing them to have all options at the same time effective in the same build. Imagine divine power giving clerics their wisdon as a to-hit / damage stat. All I am asking for is that arcane make the same build choice with tensers as clerics and FvS make with divine power. They can either be melee + DOT, or DC + DOT, but not all 3.

[Aesop]

Echoes doesnt allow people to symbol of death / wail through content. Savants can throw their third level spell, AM can toss SLAs, and PM sla's cost HP + the aura is too much mana for echoes to cover.

Let them make a choice. Do they want melee + DOTs, or DC + DOTs. Giving them all 3 is insane.

Making tensers a viable spell is a great suggestion, but adding it on top of what casters can already do, rather than having them make a sacrifice for being able to have viable melee, is tossing the most powerful classes another bone.

More options is better, but that doesnt mean allowing them to have all options at the same time effective in the same build. Imagine divine power giving clerics their wisdon as a to-hit / damage stat. All I am asking for is that arcane make the same build choice with tensers as clerics and FvS make with divine power. They can either be melee + DOT, or DC + DOT, but not all 3.

But while Tenser's is active arcanes can't cast spell... Divines with DP can cast spells and its a lower level spell costing less sp and has no negative side effect. Shouldn't tenser's be better as a spell 2 levels higher?

So really it would be difficult for them to really go hog wild with the effect with such a serious downside for a caster. They basically have a choice of uber powerful caster without Tenser's or... poor melee with tenser's... even with just SLAs available I don't think Tenser's will be a good option.

Aesop

[ArcaneMelee]

...
Then increase these bonuses by a like amount every 2-3 Caster levels beyond 11. A 20th level caster will thus be better with this spell than a rogue UMDing it from a scroll.
...

The problem isn't so much from UMDing it from a scroll, it's the ease by which one could keep a perpetual stack of 100 scrolls in their inventory.

I'd have no problem with a UMD melee toon finding such an "overpowered" scroll in a chest, and holding on to it until they reach the boss.

I've never seen a complaint that rogues can UMD a GH scroll with the exact same benefits that a level 20 would cast it at, except for the duration.

[Seikojin]

I think tensers should just change the source of its bonuses. I do not mind the inability to cast spells. SLA's are abilities and should work. It is not like it will actually make or break the game.

[Entelech]

Even in Pen and Paper, this spell was dumber than a box of rocks.

It's a FREAKING SIXTH LEVEL SPELL.

"Gee, I'm out of all my spells except this one 6th level one. Good thing I prepped Tenser's Transformation so I can run up next to the fighter and help..."

Except...

(1) You still suck as a fighter, because (no matter how much you multiclassed) you have TWELVE Sorcerer levels or ELEVEN Wizard levels. Anything that the fighter cannot simply laugh at will still rip your head off if you get into melee with it.

(2) You WASTED A 6TH LEVEL SLOT. Gee, dummy, if you had actually prepared something USEFUL instead of Tenser's, you could be summoning a powerful demon or changing the entire battlefield into mud with a wave of your hands.

Show me someone who actually used Tenser's Transformation in Pen and Paper AD&D and I'll show you an idiot.

(with one exception: there was a metamagic feat in 3.5 that let you cast self-only spells as touch spells on others. The Chaos Orb of caster-hosing is also part of this special case.)

[Kilarthia]

Tenser's transformation needs a serious overhaul.
For most intents and purposes to any remotely decently geared character, it provides the same benefit as a scroll or clicky of divine power, but yet the cost is much higher.

The biggest benefit is increased BAB. But the huge cost of not being able to cast spells (plus having to carry a stack of potions you won't otherwise use) makes it totally worthless.

That's because:
Divine power gives you the same benefits without the drawbacks
You can't cancel Tensers. Thus if your haste or displacement whatever other buff you're running runs out halfway through.. that's really annoying, because now you can't refresh it.

In order for Tensers to be viable, some of a few things needs to happen:
Modify the inability to refresh buffs in some capacity. Or keep the duration short. Or have some way to cancel the spell.
Allow spellcasting, disallow metamagics.
Provide substantial *stacking* bonuses specifically for a caster with a weapon that makes it worth using over divine power scrolls/clickies/whatever.
Have the bonuses *scale* with caster level all the way up to 20.
Get rid of the bull's strength potion requirement.
Make it cost 12sp, so it can be used from echoes of power, because this is supposed to be a last resort spell anyway, flavor wise.
Make it apply some portion of the INT or CHA modifier as the primary attack/damage weapon stat if it ends up greater.
Doublestrike bonus scaled with caster level.

Whatever. But it needs something!


We don't really want it to be the next big buff for dedicated non blue bar melees with a clicky. But I'm sure you'd agree that a dedicated caster casting tenser's transformation would probably not be competitive with dedicated melee dps even if substantial bonuses like +10 stacking strength were given to physical stats.


As it stands, I wouldn't even call it a buff. I have never seen anyone go "WOOHOO!" after being hit with Tensers by a chaos orb.

[Kathul]

Was to use metamagic feats and put it in an oh **** item. empowered and maxed it can be cool.

But it's like the sleep spell, only good in certain occasions, and at low level.

Oh wait, i have other spells of that level.

[Aesop]

Was to use metamagic feats and put it in an oh **** item. empowered and maxed it can be cool.

But it's like the sleep spell, only good in certain occasions, and at low level.

Oh wait, i have other spells of that level.

?????

There are no variable components of the spell it can't be Maximized or Empowered and its a 6th level spell... low level?

Was this sarcasm and I'm still too tired?

It is right?

Please tell me it is....

/sigh... maybe I should have gone to bed earlier afterall.

Aesop

[EllisDee37]

I think he means he applied house rules, where the str/con bonuses were able to be max/empowered or something. Or maybe even the BAB.

As for it not being a low level spell, pretty sure that was his point. It's only good for low levels, he has other options at low levels, and it's not even a friggin' low level spell anyway. It's all around fail.