Tenser's transformation

[EllisDee37]

You'd be better off using Divine Power, at least you could still use scrolls.

You mean as a scroll? That's not an arcane spell.

Scrolls aren't an issue in the context of when I use tenser's; it's usually ~30-45 seconds before the challenge ends and boots me back to house c, and it's after I've reached the challenge goal so there really isn't anything left to do anyway.

Once the lich shows up, if you're only doing a 5 minute run (my preference; any longer lowers my parts/minute ratio) there isn't enough time to move the kobold line and gather anything, which is good since for some obnoxious reason I can't place a torch while tenser's is active.

[ArcaneMelee]

You mean as a scroll? That's not an arcane spell.
...

Either a stack of scrolls or on clickies. It won't cost extra in inventory, as Tenser's requires you to carry Bulls Strength pots.

At least, it did the first and last time I mem'ed it.

[EllisDee37]

Great point. No more tenser's for me. Thanks much!

Devs, come on, seriously? How much more evidence do you need that this spell is borked?

[ArcaneMelee]

Great point. No more tenser's for me. Thanks much!

Devs, come on, seriously? How much more evidence do you need that this spell is borked?

It's not proof that they need, it's motivation.

[shadowspeaker]

It last ~2 minutes on my 16/2 wizard/rogue.

I can't really think of any time I would ever use it in a traditional quest situation, but I use it all the time in challenges. I cast haste, displace, rage, equip an undead maul, cast tenser's and go to town on the lich at the end of a 5 minute mephit wing run. Works great.

I would suggest also changing it to cost 12 sp to cast. It seems exactly like the kind of spell that should be echoes-able.

I agree on that last point if nothing else it should be echoable

[Spud42]

Divine power does not add weapon proficiency or a competence +5 Fort. save.
For the same attack bonus you have to probably cast masters which costs 10sp.
I don't know where you get competence +5 Fort. save from, but I would be interested in
how you can get it.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

i'd love it to be fixed, heres an idea, make it to where you cant cast any OFFENSIVE spells

[ArcaneMelee]

i'd love it to be fixed, heres an idea, make it to where you cant cast any OFFENSIVE spells

I like this idea - my battle casters would be forced to choose between melee and spell damage, which sounds appropriate to me.

But playing devil's advocate here - how would you determine which spells are offensive?

By School? Disintegrate and Haste are both Transmutation spells.
By Damage? Power Word: Kill, Trap the Soul, Flesh to Stone, Waves of Exhaustion, etc... don't deal any damage, but Reconstruct does (affected by Potency).
By Targeting? Symbol of [whatever], Wail of the Banshee, Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, etc... don't target.

As much as I like the idea, I think the only way you could do it would be to make a list of spells that are allowed, and flag each one on the list. That doesn't feel right.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

thought of that after i posted ~very short time ago too~ i really don't know how it would work other than spells flagged, OR maybe.... you can cast buff spells and spells that target yourself/friendly targets only ~i know this includes fire shield/death aura~

[Scraap]

I like this idea - my battle casters would be forced to choose between melee and spell damage, which sounds appropriate to me.

But playing devil's advocate here - how would you determine which spells are offensive?

By School? Disintegrate and Haste are both Transmutation spells.
By Damage? Power Word: Kill, Trap the Soul, Flesh to Stone, Waves of Exhaustion, etc... don't deal any damage, but Reconstruct does (affected by Potency).
By Targeting? Symbol of [whatever], Wail of the Banshee, Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, etc... don't target.

As much as I like the idea, I think the only way you could do it would be to make a list of spells that are allowed, and flag each one on the list. That doesn't feel right.

Hows about anything extend doesn't apply to? Back when they gutted it for anything that dealt damage or not, it made it fairly clear what they considered an offensive spell. (If I recall correctly, they even used that specific phrasing in the release note.)

[ArcaneMelee]

Hows about anything extend doesn't apply to? Back when they gutted it for anything that dealt damage or not, it made it fairly clear what they considered an offensive spell. (If I recall correctly, they even used that specific phrasing in the release note.)

Except that would eliminate the repair spells too.

I think the target idea is the best one - only spells that include "Self" in the target are allowed, even if you cast them on a friend.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Except that would eliminate the repair spells too.

I think the target idea is the best one - only spells that include "Self" in the target are allowed, even if you cast them on a friend.

^^

[Scraap]

Except that would eliminate the repair spells too.

I think the target idea is the best one - only spells that include "Self" in the target are allowed, even if you cast them on a friend.

Fair point.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Tensers has needed love for a long time. Since its release if you want to be specific. It's terrible. + to str and con thag don't stack with items? + to natural armor that doesn't stack with items/pots? And I lose my ability to cast? Lame.

There is literally no purpose to this spell. I bet Turbine can count on 1 hand of 1 employee the number of casters that memorize this spell, and all of them are from when the spell first came out, and those people no longer play...

The problem is that if they make it stackable, the arcanes would see a marginal gain and pure melees with UMD would see a HUGE impact. For this reason alone, I'd say they keep it as it is. There's a tenuous balance as it is and STR is, by far, the easiest stat to get to stratospheric levels. We certainly don't need UMD melees with +x to their STR and CON.

[kingfisher]

We certainly don't need UMD melees with +x to their STR and CON.

cause that would be so overpowered

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

cause that would be so overpowered

Yes. For classes that do not inherently cast spells, they are getting something for essentially nothing.

[ArcaneMelee]

The problem is that if they make it stackable, the arcanes would see a marginal gain and pure melees with UMD would see a HUGE impact. For this reason alone, I'd say they keep it as it is.
...

Simple fix - remove the scrolls from vendors (but keep them in random loot tables).

In fact, I blame the vendors for the fact that UMD is widely considered the most overpowered skill in the game.

... There's a tenuous balance as it is and STR is, by far, the easiest stat to get to stratospheric levels. We certainly don't need UMD melees with +x to their STR and CON.

If by "balance" you mean "only used by Chaos Orbs to get a caster killed", then yes, it's very balanced.

But if that's really Turbine's intent, the best fix is to change "Target:Self" to "Target:Foe". I'd love to hit Horoth with it.

[kingfisher]

Yes. For classes that do not inherently cast spells, they are getting something for essentially nothing.

what does that have to do with being overpowered? and is investing in UMD 'nothing'?

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

what does that have to do with being overpowered? and is investing in UMD 'nothing'?

Most DPS builds (not all I reckon), already splash 2Rog. They already strive to get as close as possible to Heal scroll range for self-sustenance/emergency heal -- which in itself is mindbloging to think of a PnP Barbarian self-healing. The point is, most competent players are already maxing UMD for other reasons, so yes, for the sake of Tenser's they are getting a benefit for a skill they needed to max anyway.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

Simple fix - remove the scrolls from vendors (but keep them in random loot tables).

In fact, I blame the vendors for the fact that UMD is widely considered the most overpowered skill in the game.

That could be a good compromise with the provision they don't fix it retroactively so that people can't just load up their mule toons with Tenser's scrolls.

If by "balance" you mean "only used by Chaos Orbs to get a caster killed", then yes, it's very balanced.

But if that's really Turbine's intent, the best fix is to change "Target:Self" to "Target:Foe". I'd love to hit Horoth with it.

Even if it wasn't on purple names, being able to cast it on enemy casters would be awesome