Does Pally DPS suck or is it just me?

[aurum1]

I've hit the level 18 wall on my 36-point TR and it's my first pally. KoTC right now, done with vale so fighting a bunch of non-EOs right now and I must say . . .

her DPS sucks.

Sucks hard.

If her DPS sucked any harder it'd put it on the street corner and tell it to make me money.

I mean it was fine against EOs, but you don't fight that many EOs after Vale before Amrath. When streaking elites to get the most XP possible I've absolutely hit a wall at 18.

Don't get me wrong, the survivability is extremely nice with the great AC and saves, plus self healing that's saved her ass a lot. She's died 3 times in a life that's been nothing but complete maniacal zerging since she's hit Korthos.

But damage wise (against non-EOs at least) if she didn't have dual icy-burst +5/+3 WOP rapiers and good Greensteels she'd be absolutely piking.

And please keep in mind my point of reference . . . I do not have a single max-DPS-tard in my stable.

Excaulted Smites? these are a joke right? Sure it's cool WHEN you triple-proc a crit but all the other times it adds so little damage it's not worth pressing the button.

Divine sacrifice is good, very nice actually but that cooldown is too long to be of much use.

The Divine might activation time is so long I don’t bother to use. That is so stupid, it should be a fast boost like Power Surge.

Divine Favor and Zeal are good.

Is it really this bad?

Pallys are awesome DPS when you TR them into something better and use the active PL feat for +3 damage. Hard to beat it!

Oh as an actual pally? Yeah weaksauce and getting weaker every update that moves away from devils as end game content.

[Ralmeth]

I've been running my 3rd life as a full Pally. At lvl 17 right now and its playable.

My past 2 lives were fighter and barb respectively, so maybe the past lives help out with my dps because its not as bad as I expected it to be.

I will say that one area that needs to be improved are the auras.

When I think of a paladin, its a becon of holy might... Boosting morale and determination of the party. I think of them almost as useful as a bard in that respect, but of course that's not how they're built in DDO.

Yes, because of the active combat and everyone moving around, a Paladin's aura is mostly for the benefit of the Paladin, but it's always been like this. The area of effect of the aura is consistent with PnP. Having said that, I have a couple of ideas on how to improve on this:
1) Allow a Paladin's aura to add healing amplification and give Paladins an enhancement line to increase this effect...Everyone will want a Pally in the party if this is the case even if DPS isn't as much as a Barb or Fighter.
2) Increase the area of effect of the aura and allow it last longer for anyone that leaves the area of effect.

[Dandonk]

I have two paladins, kotc both. One TWF pesh, one THF.

Paladins lack to hit. This is a non-issue in most normal content, but becomes an issue in epic/harder difficulty endgame stuff.

Paladins have great damage.... vs. EO as kotc, anyway. My pallies both rock in shroud (and tod on the one that's flagged for it). But shroud is not endgame anymore, and after Danyi got her two tod sets, I only run it rarely on her.

I like Exalted Smite IV. 12 smites, regenning, is great for killstealing. Makes barbs and other "uber DPS" get angry when you get more kills than them (even if you have much less average DPS).

DM is nice, but loooooooooooooooooooooooong activation time. I use while running between portals, or just before starting boss fights. I rarely bother to use it in fights.

DivSac is great, and I spam it every time it's off timer. Zeal and DivFav are great too. They do not even begin to cover the DPS gap (against EO).

So, where does that leave my pallies? As shroud grinders, really. If I want to go somewhere else with a melee DPS, I get a fighter or monk or something... but pally? Nope.

Kotc could use a more generic bonus to damage versus evil (or at least a larger amount of monsters, maybe more like light monk's tainted group). In this case, the bonus may have to be scaled back some.
To hit could also use a boost, though how I'm not so sure. A selfonly weapon buff that adds to hit/damage versus evil?

My 25 øre anyway.

[bartosy]

I have two paladins, kotc both. One TWF pesh, one THF.

Paladins lack to hit. This is a non-issue in most normal content, but becomes an issue in epic/harder difficulty endgame stuff.

this is very right.. kotc paladins kinda suck but its not because of the dps.. most of the end game is still evil outsider based and whatever people might say here.. against evil outsiders.. they are very good.

On my paladin life kotc twf kopesh i had no problem keeping up with barbs with e-sos in epic devil assault but you have to play it smart.. sure they can crit very high but if you time your smites right you can just plink that last bit of hp of the mob and get the kill works especially good on held mobs..

the main problem with kotc is they cant tank tho.. well they can tank but anything higher then normal will be problematic because of the hp of a kotc.. most kotc and even wf ones barely break the 600 mark add in the 0 ac from pure kotc pallies and you got your self a pretty crappy tank..

hate wise versus evil outsiders.. theres nothing that can compare unless its maybe a barb with esos and a string of crits but even then.. you just slap on the 100% hate clicky bought for 1 ap.. and your set. I pulled of many evil outsider bosses on my pallie from even dos/stalwart tanks and more easily barb tanks.

the base damage might seem crappy but if you got yourself some lit2s dm4 kotc tod set and zeal and divine favor, i ran with the epic abishai gloves too for even more lit procs, running you got yourself a nice string of numbers.. and a lot of small numbers add up to a big numbers in the end. that's one thing i will miss about my pallie the whole screen full of numbers,it's just very pretty ^^.

the ****** thing about paladins is that they are very slow and you got to press those stupid buttons constantly and in such a short timespan it gets pretty tiring after a while.

[grodon9999]

So, where does that leave my pallies? As shroud grinders, really. If I want to go somewhere else with a melee DPS, I get a fighter or monk or something... but pally? Nope.

LR into a tank build . . . they are FANTASTIC in that roll.

[Dandonk]

LR into a tank build . . . they are FANTASTIC in that roll.

I could do that, yes. But I think it's a little sad that palies are not allowed to be DPS.

[grodon9999]

I could do that, yes. But I think it's a little sad that palies are not allowed to be DPS.

True, but you'll still be able to get into groups unlike Tempest Rangers and rogues

[Dandonk]

True, but you'll still be able to get into groups unlike Tempest Rangers and rogues

Hehe, OK, fair enough

[DRAGONSUPERDRAGON]

Paladins have their pres finished and are balanced to how the game was two and a half years ago. Personally I feel that they have been hit by most of the melee nerfs and almost none of the few buffs, and every non devil update makes their one trick pony "DPS" pre less useful. Although I disagree with people who talk trash about the class without bothering to use its dps abilities properly I still hope that the devs will take a good look at it when they do their big enhancements pass. Like suggested earlier in this thread, a general dps pre and a specialized dps pre instead of two specialized dps pre's could be a good change. It's sad that the tanking pre is the best dps option for pallys in most content atm.

Also,

add in the 0 ac from pure kotc pallies and you got your self a pretty crappy tank..

Yea but you get +1 ac from the kotc set belt so it's all good.

[CanuckWisdom]

But I doubt this will change. Paladins are one of the classes that is "allowed to suck", buffing them significantly would be risky. Imagine a patch where paladins become superior to barbarians and LFMs often have the barb icon off and the pally icon on (the opposite of how it is now). The forums would be drenched in tears. Subscriptions would be cancelled. BARBS NOT WANTED IN GROUPS?? THE GAME IS BROKEN!

Its only funny cause its true.

Because of saves, spells and LoH, buffing paladin DPS could lead to a no-brainer situation when choosing a melee class.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Kotc could use a more generic bonus to damage versus evil (or at least a larger amount of monsters, maybe more like light monk's tainted group). In this case, the bonus may have to be scaled back some.
To hit could also use a boost, though how I'm not so sure. A selfonly weapon buff that adds to hit/damage versus evil?

I'd love a feat called Divine Insight, granted at Paladin level 12, that gives 1/2 CHA bonus to attack rolls.

As for KotC, I like the suggestion of giving them the same damage list as Light Monks!

[Faent]

On my paladin life kotc twf kopesh i had no problem keeping up with barbs with e-sos in epic devil assault but you have to play it smart.. sure they can crit very high but if you time your smites right you can just plink that last bit of hp of the mob and get the kill works especially good on held mobs..

This is a joke, right? =)

[Phemt81]

A paladin should be the incarnation of the real legendary hero.

He is restricted to be lawful good, he needs lot of stat points to be decent.
It is the only class that was created with the intention of being overpowered in D&D.

Instead, here in ddo, i hear of a melee way inferior to any fighter, ranger, monk or barbarian. Divine might needs a pure charisma stat of 20 to be taken? Really developers what were you thinking when coding that one? Maybe you coded it for clerics and then thought: "hey, this could be cool for paladins too!". Yeah right, it could have been cool. I also hear it is so slow to be casted that it's not convenient to be picked/used, so, no words.

About enhancements, only charisma? Cleric get wisdom and charisma, you should think of adding strenght for paladins, or at least leave wisdom for them as well.

Maybe what we see is the result of nerfs on a class that was overpowered once, but now we see an overnerfed class here.

I am starting to think we need a "let's talk: PALADINS" separated from other melee classes...

Sigh, i was planning to be paladin in my third life.

[EllisDee37]

I am farming the challenges for those water khopeshes. Has anyone tried them in epics?

I ran an eProblem just to test them, had a pair of tier 1 epic water khopeshes. They proc enough to notice, but not enough to overcome a build deficiency. In this context, just being a paladin qualifies as a build deficiency, heh.

My main is a pally, so I'm really hoping for some love in the enhancement pass. Someone upthread mentioned how some classes are feat-starved, some are enhancement-starved, but pallies are both. Not only is that true, but pallies are also stat-starved just for an extra kick in the teeth.

[Sarisa]

My main is a pally, so I'm really hoping for some love in the enhancement pass. Someone upthread mentioned how some classes are feat-starved, some are enhancement-starved, but pallies are both. Not only is that true, but pallies are also stat-starved just for an extra kick in the teeth.

Skill starved too...

[Danielson99]

Here's my 2cents.

Most people (75% or so) don't have either the patience, skills or knowledge of how to play a Paladin properly. A solid percentage of people don't have all 3 of those. This makes the majority of people whining about a Paladins lack of dps a non-factor when it comes debating. That might sound a bit harsh but it's very true. Do I have secrets on how to play a Paladin that most people don't? I don't think so. The reality of it is that from level 1 to Epic, I will out-dps and kill count all melee in the group 90% of the time in any quest. I saw one guy in this thread complaining about how embarrassed he was running eDA because his kill count was so low. I run eDA with some of the best players in the game and have no problem being near the top of the kill count leaderboard every single run.

I'm 3rd life pure Paladin and I pwn kill counts and dps. Of course there are other solid toons out there that are equal to the task and I love running with them because it pushes me even harder. Great rogues and monks can also easily own an eDA but the fact is MOST of them don't, at least when I'm in the party.

I'm not high on myself or how powerful a Paladin can be. I'm just aware of how capable they really are but sadly very few people are capable of running/building a Paladin in this manner.

I'm not interested in arguing about technique, logic, reason or anything for that matter. I'm only here to stand up and tell everybody that Paladin's are NOT lacking/weaksauce. The fact is, they are only lacking to the majority of people who try to play them. I blame the player for that, not the class.

I had one of the best teachers around and I am always glad to pass on knowledge or help people out in whatever way I can. Every Class in the game can be a powerhouse and the reason that's true is because some people bring out the best in a toon and some don't. Each to their own.

I hope other Paladins out there keep their heads held high and always remember...it's not that class the matters, it's how you use it

[Lifespawn]

Here's my 2cents.

Most people (75% or so) don't have either the patience, skills or knowledge of how to play a Paladin properly. A solid percentage of people don't have all 3 of those. This makes the majority of people whining about a Paladins lack of dps a non-factor when it comes debating. That might sound a bit harsh but it's very true. Do I have secrets on how to play a Paladin that most people don't? I don't think so. The reality of it is that from level 1 to Epic, I will out-dps and kill count all melee in the group 90% of the time in any quest. I saw one guy in this thread complaining about how embarrassed he was running eDA because his kill count was so low. I run eDA with some of the best players in the game and have no problem being near the top of the kill count leaderboard every single run.

I'm 3rd life pure Paladin and I pwn kill counts and dps. Of course there are other solid toons out there that are equal to the task and I love running with them because it pushes me even harder. Great rogues and monks can also easily own an eDA but the fact is MOST of them don't, at least when I'm in the party.

I'm not high on myself or how powerful a Paladin can be. I'm just aware of how capable they really are but sadly very few people are capable of running/building a Paladin in this manner.

I'm not interested in arguing about technique, logic, reason or anything for that matter. I'm only here to stand up and tell everybody that Paladin's are NOT lacking/weaksauce. The fact is, they are only lacking to the majority of people who try to play them. I blame the player for that, not the class.

I had one of the best teachers around and I am always glad to pass on knowledge or help people out in whatever way I can. Every Class in the game can be a powerhouse and the reason that's true is because some people bring out the best in a toon and some don't. Each to their own.

I hope other Paladins out there keep their heads held high and always remember...it's not that class that matters, it's how you use it

Yep numbers and facts are a lie your "feelings" are the truth also the sky is green

[Danielson99]

Yep numbers and facts are a lie your "feelings" are the truth also the sky is green

As irrelevant as your post is, I don't blame you for hating. It's not easy accepting you're not capable of something. The only FACT that matters is that only the very few best of a melee class will compete at my level, regardless of whether it's a figher, barb, monk or rogue. I live it and see it every day. Nothing you or anyone can say can change the reality of how bad most people play this game.

[Lifespawn]

As irrelevant as your post is, I don't blame you for hating. It's not easy accepting you're not capable of something. The only FACT that matters is that only the very few best of a melee class will compete at my level, regardless of whether it's a figher, barb, monk or rogue. I live it and see it every day. Nothing you or anyone can say can change the reality of how bad most people play this game.

you can spout how uber you are all you want the numbers don't lie

please post your build and i'll post at Least 5 of my own current builds that make yours look like it swings a wet noodle.

[Danielson99]

you can spout how uber you are all you want the numbers don't lie

please post your build and i'll post at Least 5 of my own current builds that make yours look like it swings a wet noodle.

I don't care what your toons look like on paper, that's the whole point you aren't getting through your head. People can build 'equal' toons on paper and they are all going to play differently. Some much better than others and yet a few that are heads above all of them. Starting to grasp the concept?

Hey I know what you're saying, trust me. I don't think you know what I'm saying though. Numbers aren't the deciding factor, a person's intelligence and ability are.

Using your reasoning I can say this....let me play your toon and you'll see how bad you really play this game. Starting to grasp it now? Gonna spout about how much more uber your builds are?? Stop wasting our time. If you think all players are created equal then you've lost the battle already.