"Greater Evil Outsider Bane is Better"

[TheDearLeader]

The only fight where you fight CG Outsiders that I know of is Running With The Devils. If you're going to be serious about contributing DPS in that quest, you'll need Unholy on the weapon in addition to Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane. I really can't see the point in doing that when the servers are chock full of characters who carry LitII and MinII weapons or Circle of Death/Wail of the Banshee. Does that mean I'm not killing my "fair share" of enemies on a first life? Probably. For that one quest, I'm okay with that. I do plenty in other quests.

Sometimes "good enough" really is good enough.

Lit IIs are horrible weapons in there.

As said above, I made my Unholy Cold Iron of GCOB - and it was glorious.

[Indoran]

There is this theory going around that most of the endgame bosses are Evil Outsiders. Meh.

ok 1. not a theory 2. they also are lawful or chaotic and each requires a different material in the base item. Go meditate on what you just learned.

[Valindria]

This a little different due to not having high crafting levels,

But when I made mine (prior to the crafting recipe change) I went with:

+4 Holy Silver Kopesh of EOB x2

and

+4 Axiomatic Cold Iron of Pure Good. x2. Now I know they won't do as much damage as GCOB but they also will work on hounds that require Lawful to bypass DR.


What are you thoughts on Axiomatic Burst Cold Iron of Pure Good?

[Dragavon]

What are you thoughts on Axiomatic Burst Cold Iron of Pure Good?

I would not do that. I made:

Holy burst silver greater lawful outsider bane for devils.
Holy burst cold iron greater chaotic outsider bane for demons.
Axiomatic burst byeshk greater chaotic outsider bane for tharaak hounds and daelkyr.

[TheDearLeader]

What are you thoughts on Axiomatic Burst Cold Iron of Pure Good?

I'd rather have the Holy/Cold Iron/Bane setup still, I'll explain my (personal choice) and reasoning in this matter:

• Higher to-hit. I'm not going to pretend that while moving, unbuffed, my toons have a +65 to-hit or something. It doesn't hurt my feelings to get a few extra points - max-crafted one is a +9 Weapon, after all.
• Thaarak Hounds are not that prevalent. We've got HoX, VoN2, Xorian, U9 stuff... meh. A few hodgepodge other puppies here and there, but not really too special.
• Thaarak Hound DR isn't that high. Sure, they have yellow numbers, and that annoys me to no end, but the +3d6 that Greater Bane has vs. Pure Good makes up for the DR difference. Xy'zzy on Elite may be an exception to this, but at the same time, this is an instance where high to-hit would matter the most (dispelled due to beholders, possibly bees, Bard songs may have expired, etc.)

The only exception would be a capped Paladin with Weapons of Good, where I would utilize a +5 Axiomatic Burst Cold Iron ~~ of Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane, since it will bust the DR of both Thaarak Hounds, and other Demons such as Mariliths, while also doing highest to-hit and damage possible.

[Sigava]

While I personally craft Greater Lawful Outsider Bane since it's so much cheaper, there is another factor to consider: Trash. There's an awful lot of evil outsider trash that isn't lawful.

A Holy (Burst) Silver Greater Lawful Outsider Bane will beat the DR and cream any and every devil you come across, boss or otherwise. A Holy (Burst) Silver Greater Evil Outsider Bane will do the exact same damage to devils, and will also wipe the floor with non-Lawful Evil Outsider Trash, such as Flesh Renders, Fire Reavers, Ice Flensers, Jariliths and (I think?) Thaarak Hounds.

Granted, some people might have matching sets of both HB Silver GLOB as well as HB Cold Iron GCOB, but for some the decision to make a single set of HB Silver GEOB might be more economical. Since there are I believe 5 Mariliths in the entire game (DQ, Bastion, POP, optional objective in Genesis that no one ever does, and that one silver flame quest in inspired quarter no one ever does), many might decide that a single set of weapons that works for every Devil boss + every evil outsider trash mob is preferable to making a set of devils-only beater and a set of mariliths-and-eladrin-only beaters.

Of course, for Trash some people prefer banishers anyway.

[TheDearLeader]

While I personally craft Greater Lawful Outsider Bane since it's so much cheaper, there is another factor to consider: Trash. There's an awful lot of evil outsider trash that isn't lawful.

------

Granted, some people might have matching sets of both HB Silver GLOB as well as HB Cold Iron GCOB, but for some the decision to make a single set of HB Silver GEOB might be more economical.

The difference between crafting 1 HBSoGEOB and two weapons of 1 HBSoGLOB and HBCoGCOB is:

1 extra weapon.
Some Greater and Lesser Good essences.
Some Siberys Dragonshard Fragments.
I guess a +1 Tome?

That's not exactly a heavy investment. However, tacking on an extra Demon's Blood to deal with "just trash" is more expensive.

Also, Demon Trash tends to be more particular than Devil Trash - a lot of non-boss Demons, particularly the various types of Renders, still require DR Cold Iron and Good.

[EllisDee37]

Thanks DearLeader, that's quite a relief about the tr cache. I thought it only held 20 items and I was starting to get stressed out about it.

I think I understand what the original dig meant, and what the proper response to it is, thanks to Sigava a couple posts up. If that's your only weapon, then yes, Evil Outsider would be far better than Lawful Outsider. So the proper response to "Evil Outsider would be better" is to link your cold iron weapon, demonstrating why Evil Outsider isn't better for you, because you can inflict bane damage against every evil outsider in the game. (Right?)

[TheDearLeader]

Thanks DearLeader, that's quite a relief about the tr cache. I thought it only held 20 items and I was starting to get stressed out about it.

I think I understand what the original dig meant, and what the proper response to it is, thanks to Sigava a couple posts up. If that's your only weapon, then yes, Evil Outsider would be far better than Lawful Outsider. So the proper response to "Evil Outsider would be better" is to link your cold iron weapon, demonstrating why Evil Outsider isn't better for you, because you can inflict bane damage against every evil outsider in the game. (Right?)

Pretty right.

I still don't agree with it being "better". I think it's lower maintenance, perhaps, but to graft GEOB, you're burning a Demon's Blood that would have got you through the most expensive part of crafting GCOB. And really, if you're that worried about damage, I'd also worry about busting DR - and as explained, while *some* Demon trash is merely DR/Good, some is also DR/Cold Iron + Good.

As Sigava says above, even they craft GLOB on their Devil Beaters.

[Iwinbyrollup]

I agree completely with TheDearLeader.

But, it is worth making a list of what the difference is, exactly. Comparing making 1 +5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane weapon and 1 +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron of Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane on the one hand to a single +5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Evil Outsider Bane on the other. There is nothing used to make the latter that wouldn't be used in making the former, so everything listed below is what you need for the two weapons in addition to what would be needed for the single weapon.

21 Greater Chaos Essences
21 Greater Law Essences
15 Greater Arcane Essences
192 Lesser Chaos Essences
192 Lesser Law Essences
192 Lesser Arcane Essences
2300 assorted Lesser Essences (for Potential)
5 Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments
25 Siberys Dragonshard Fragments
2 Lodestones
1 Mark of the Silver Flame
1 Mystical Plant
1 Mystical Goblet
1 +5 Enhancement Spirit
1 Cold Iron weapon

So that is a pretty big list. But when it comes down to it, it really isn't *that* much. The 2300 Lessers is 460 Greaters, broken down, and that's a few days worth of questing for essences at the most. Leveling with Chaos and Law essences is very difficult at high levels, so you're probably going to be left with a lot of them, so that's easy. The Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments are a +1 tome and a Small Eberron Dragonshard Fragment...a bit of an investment, probably more than the rest, but still not much. The rest is negligible and Cold Iron weapons are easy to find on the AH.

I can't imagine crafting something as expensive as a +5 HB Metal-type weapon of any Greater Outsider Bane and have it NOT break DR on enemies I'm using it against. If it's not breaking DR then I'm going to use my Lit IIs instead anyway.

EDIT: Technically, the best would be to have the +5 HB Silver of GEOB AND a +5 HB CI of GCOB, but that's unnecessary and you're probably still better off with other weaponry for the stuff that the +5 HB Silver of GLOB wouldn't affect.

[Mystera]

Personally I don't care the cost, to me the real question is what is the best. To be the best, I went with the following on my monk which has a holyburst ring:

+5 Holy Silver Handwraps of GEOB
+5 Axiomatic Burst Cold Iron Handwraps of GCOB

This is the best combo since holy silver GEOB lets me take out almost all trash in the game, no switching (and losing dps) during fights. The axiomatic burst cold iron GCOB is pulled out for the one off occassions where it is needed like against the DQ, chaotic neutral, or chaotic good outsiders.

With this combo I can do damage to more enemies than someone with a holy cold iron and holy silver combo (chaotic good and chaotic neutral mobs), and it also improves my dps over someone that has to swap weapons during trash fights.

[Malky]

Actually, GLOB does affect Tieflings. I have confirmed this on multiple occasions, but I suggest that you go and do the same for your own benefit. The Dream Scourges are also damaged by GLOB.

KotC enhancement based "Bane" damage does not damage Tieflings - apparently they do not fall under the whole "Fiendslaying" thing. However, the ToD Set Bonus damage does affect Tieflings, as does normal bane types.

So... sorry, your downside is invalid.

Tested now, and indeed it does affect both which is a very good piece of news to me since i went the Silver GLOB / Cold Iron GCOB way as well. ddowiki might need an update since it lists both tieflings and dream scourges as being evil outsiders but not lawful.

[NeutronStar]

For Chaotic Good Outsiders, I'd craft Unholy Cold Iron. In fact.. I did. And they are sick looking (Video)

Indeed. I only wish it was possible to make Unholy BURST but it's not.

[Mister_Peace]

Edit: I didn't read the whole thread. Wax stated my point earlier in

this post

You know, there ARE neutral evil outsiders in DDO. There's one in the Shroud, and there are plenty in Amrath.

Edit: the marraenoloth is undead in DDO apparently, even though they are outsiders in PnP.

[NeutronStar]

There's one in the Shroud

Which one is Neutral Evil and how do you know?

and there are plenty in Amrath.

We don't fight the Yugoloth...at least not yet anyway.

[aristarchus1000]

The issue is whether you fight mixed groups of chaotic and lawful outsiders, and whether they require cold iron and or silver as well, because otherewise you might be able to use a set on both, since most outsider mobs have DR/good only.

The other question is, doesn't a Lit2 do more damage than HBoGEOB to mobs without DR anyway? I'll need to review the math... once I have the crafting high enough to make it a concern....

[Iwinbyrollup]

The other question is, doesn't a Lit2 do more damage than HBoGEOB to mobs without DR anyway? I'll need to review the math... once I have the crafting high enough to make it a concern....

I actually just did the math this morning for Scimitars...it will vary a bit for different weapons because critical profile and GS versus non-GS weapon damage both have an effect on how much damage the weapons do.

Someone can check my math if they want, but at least for Scimitars and looking only at weapon damage (since we're comparing like weapon types, build doesn't make a difference other than assuming IC for these numbers), I'm getting an average of 37.85 damage per swing using a Lit II Scimitar (Holy/Shocking Burst/Shocking Blast) and 35.4 using a +5 Holy Burst Silver Scimitar of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane. So the Lit II is better, although not by much, and against anything with Electric Resistance--such as Tieflings--the DR breaker will outperform the Lit II.

So, Tieflings: +5 HBS of GLOB/GEOB
Fiends/other non-EO trash: Lit II
Good OR Silver Devils without Electric Resistance: Lit II
Good and Silver Devils: +5 HBS of GLOB/GEOB

The math:

Lit II

1: 0 damage
2-14: 1d8 + 5 (base damage) + 2d6 (Holy) + 1d6 (Shocking Burst)
15-19: (1d8 + 5)*2 (base damage) + 2d6 (Holy) + 1d6 + 1d10 (Shocking Burst) + 1d10 (Shocking Blast)
20: (1d8 + 5)*2 (base damage) + 2d6 (Holy) + 1d6 + 1d10 (Shocking Burst) + 1d10 + 4d6 (Shocking Blast)
Lightning Strike: ~600 damage 2% for ~12 damage per swing

= 0*0.05 + 20*0.65 + 40.5*0.25 + 54.5*0.05 + 12 = 37.85

+5 Holy Burst Silver of Greater Lawful/Evil Outsider Bane

1: 0 damage
2-14: 1d6 + 5 (base damage) + 2d6 (Holy) + 3d6 (Bane) + 4 (Bane enhancement bonus)
15-20: (1d6 + 5)*2 (base damage) + 2d6 (Holy) + 3d6 (Holy Burst) + 3d6 (Bane) + 4*2 (Bane enhancement bonus)

= 0*0.05 + 26*0.65 + 53*0.30 = 35.4

The one possible mistake is that I'm not sure if the Enhancement bonus from a Greater Bane is multiplied on a critical, although I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that it is. Also worth noting is that the Lit II is better on a Spreadsheet but there is an advantage to the DR breaker in that you're more likely to waste damage on a Lit II because of burst damage from Lightning Strike.

[Epitome]

Good call. I would also add crossbow users as well.



I think, at that point, I would rather get an elemental weapons buff. (Shock for Devils, Acid for Demons.)

Deadly blades when they get it fix for sure!

[Rydin_Dirtay]

For Chaotic Good Outsiders, I'd craft Unholy Cold Iron. In fact.. I did. And they are sick looking (Video)

I'm making a +4 Unholy Cold Iron of COB, and I'm thinking I could use it at-level in Running. People say "it's only one quest" (Running w/devils) but I say, it costs almost nothing to make a COB (1 medium arrowhead), so why not?

And yes they look totally bad__.

[~Cavalier9999]

We kicked the same issue around in this thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=331042