Feedback - Crafting - Update 10, Patch 1

[oradafu]

this isnt exactly true.

while Arcane Casters do get the Trap the soul spell, the materials are quite expensive, and ALL classes have access to Trap the Soul Greensteel weapons, and those do not require material components to work.

add in the fact that Souls gems are tradable, and i fail to see the problem.

my suggestion would be to require a weak soul gem of (type) for lesser (type) bane, regular for regular bane, and srtong for greater bane.

elemental soul gems for elemental effects, i.e. fire for fire, earth for earth ETC.

alignment based is a little trickier, but my suggestion would be Eladrin for Holy, for example

My thoughts on the Soul Gems was more for the Greater Bane than the Lesser and regular banes. Although what you suggest does seem to make sense. I pointed out that there were no soul gems for dragons, but others have pointed out the gems in rare chests needed to flag for SoS covers that. I think that still leaves one creature type that would be a sticking point for the weak, regular and strong soul gems: constructs. I might be wrong, but the only constructs that can be turned into soul gems are Fleshgolems, but I've only seen Weak Living Construct Soul Gems. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about this though.

Why do people think making soul gems essential is a good idea? So only casters can craft stuff and people who aren't casters will have to fork up cash to them? As if casters aren't already over-powered solo cash machines in the game as is. You want to anchor desirable crafting ingredients to them, too? Further, these same people are also almost universally requiring that the gems no longer fall on the floor because then that would allow some other people to get some... can't have that! No way. Must have wiz/socs totally control that market!

C'mon guys.

Cannith Crafting was built to be relatively blind to class, requiring soul gems without requiring stuff that other types of classes have complete dominion over is crazy.

I'm not against various kinds of class codependency, but just ONE heavily weighted dependency (soul gems) that requires access to a 7th level wiz/soc spell is not the way to go.

I have no casters. I have a bunch of Soul Gems though. It's because I have an Epic Souleater. Others have pointed to GS Vacuum weapons as another way for non-casters. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I have so many Soul Gems, I don't know what to do with them. What would I do if they became a crafting ingredient? Probably give alot of them away. (Yeah, others would try to make a buck off of Soul Gems, just like you'll see in the AH now with outrageous prices for the completely useless ones. Just as people try to sell Bloodstones for "the" Bloodstone or old Ioun Stones for suppressed Ioun Stones. Heck, the DDOStore sells small ingredients that most people give (not trade) to others without pausing to think about it.) Sure, the Souleater doesn't go off consistently so that its unreliable it to get the Soul Gems you want when you want them. But it goes off enough that you will have eventually get the Soul Gem you want (and more) that if it's one Soul Gem per shard that giving them away wouldn't be unusual.

However, if it's like the Adamantine ritual, I can see your point a bit more. Getting 10 Earth Soul Gems can take some time with an Epic Souleater. The 150 Soul Gems for the maximum Adamantine Ritual is too time consuming for a non-caster.

[rvdvelden]

I have no casters. I have a bunch of Soul Gems though. It's because I have an Epic Souleater.

And how did you obtain said weapon? I'm taking a wild guess here. You found a high level party and grinded Epic Quests until you had all the required ingredients. How is this different than grinding high level raids in order to get the invaluable ingredients that patch 10.1 had proposed to bring to Cannith Crafting?

Basically you're saying that someone either needs to play a caster (in order to cast Trap The Soul) or start playing Epic AND use a character that can wield a quarterstaff without cramping his style in order to effectively use Cannith Crafting. Or the other alternative: buy the gems from the small amount of players that actually are willing to do this. I fail to see how this is any better than the dev proposals in patch 10.1.

[Asmodeus451]

And how did you obtain said weapon? I'm taking a wild guess here. You found a high level party and grinded Epic Quests until you had all the required ingredients. How is this different than grinding high level raids in order to get the invaluable ingredients that patch 10.1 had proposed to bring to Cannith Crafting?

Basically you're saying that someone either needs to play a caster (in order to cast Trap The Soul) or start playing Epic AND use a character that can wield a quarterstaff without cramping his style in order to effectively use Cannith Crafting. Or the other alternative: buy the gems from the small amount of players that actually are willing to do this. I fail to see how this is any better than the dev proposals in patch 10.1.

Economics 101: demand creats supply, supply drives down the price.

if Soul Gems were required for crafting, you would see ALOT more casters carrying the spell.

as it is right now, not many do because the spell is expensive and not very useful.

but if soul gems become a requirement for crafting, more casters start carrying the spell, soul gems become more available, and the value of them drops off a cliff.

and as for me personally, if soul gems did become used in crafting, i would happily carry the TtS spell and sell the gems at the cost of the components to make them (i would give them away for free, but Khyber shards are expensive)

[EllisDee37]

Keep all recipes the same as they are in 9.2 and jus put a shard timer on shards of potential. Crafting stays simple, the little guys can gear themselves, and the the powergamers won't be able to flood the market with uber crafted gear. Win win win.

[Mister_Peace]

Keep all recipes the same as they are in 9.2 and jus put a shard timer on shards of potential. Crafting stays simple, the little guys can gear themselves, and the the powergamers won't be able to flood the market with uber crafted gear. Win win win.

Very intriguing idea. Would probably require much more work than changing recipe ingredients though.

[Drfirewater79]

Economics 101: demand creats supply, supply drives down the price.

if Soul Gems were required for crafting, you would see ALOT more casters carrying the spell.

as it is right now, not many do because the spell is expensive and not very useful.

but if soul gems become a requirement for crafting, more casters start carrying the spell, soul gems become more available, and the value of them drops off a cliff.

and as for me personally, if soul gems did become used in crafting, i would happily carry the TtS spell and sell the gems at the cost of the components to make them (i would give them away for free, but Khyber shards are expensive)

I have to agree .. soul gems are pretty easy to get if someone cares enough to get them. Right now no one cares to get them cause they are worthless for anything other then adamantine rituals .

But having soul gems also kinda forces people to play a caster in order to craft .. which is a bad thing too. Its not fair to the new guy who only has one or two characters to be forced to run a capped wizard so he can use trap the soul .. or grind for months on end to pay outragious AH prices for high end soul gems. Cause you know they will never be cheap ... no matter how flooded the market is with them.

I think there is no reason to change the crafting system .. its perfect the way it is right now. Its hard .. i have been grinding for about 1 month now as a pretty hardcore player .. bankrupted 10 of 13 characters down to now enough plat to repair gear levels and still only have early 40's in arcane and divine and late 30s in elemental.

Adding a small cash return for deconstruct is a great idea ... adding more recipies would be a better idea ... making ingredient drops more frequent in chests as you level so that more ingredients drop in end game quests and epics (in non warded chests) to encourage people to level there character while leveling there crafting ... putting 24 hour timer on unbound shard creation (to avoid massive influx and unbalance) and allowing people to trade 3 to 1 for ingredients they need and 3 to 1 for collectables then making more recipies require specific collectables would be a better way to do things.

I cant believe after 6 years we dont have a collectable swaping system yet ... also why not add a Draconic runes requirement to some of the higher ticket items to encrouage people to run reavers refuge quests. Make the runes bound to account for all NEW runes (not backwards compatible) and make the Eldrich Tempest and Soverien's deconstructable (to get more draconic's) amd make 1-3 draconics required for some recipies ...

Farming them is easy but time consuming ... it makes the pack worth buying ... it would allow people to trade unneeded elderich tempest and soveriens to alts (bta) and make it so you dont have to farm with the characters you want the armor on (however the armors themselves should be BTC to avoid people getting armors without doing SoS)

This way you put in a expensive time consuming collectable into crafting to limit the mass production of uber loots ... you create hype for old content that is often avoided ... you allow people to better specialize there DT armors cause they can play what ever character the party needs rather then be forced to start there own party and hope there is a caster and healer who wants to help them farm (just started teaching myself to solo on a melee so that i could farm the runes i need cause its annoying waiting 20 mins to fill a party for tempest runes when i can solo it in 10 mins)

Its all win .... no lose.

Besides really ... people who are dedicating themselves to crafting should have an advantage over peopel who are casualy raising there crafting levels ... with dedication begets rewards ... hello its what grinding is all about .. and this game has more different grinds then any other MMO i know of ... this game is more grind heavy then wow ... cept for leveling.

[Drfirewater79]

Very intriguing idea. Would probably require much more work than changing recipe ingredients though.

I doubt that ... adding timers is much easier then recoding recipies ...

I am not a games developer but i am studying to be a softwear engineer ... and coding is much easier to add a timer then to rework an ingredients list for every single recipie.

[skids666]

Economics 101: demand creats supply, supply drives down the price.

if Soul Gems were required for crafting, you would see ALOT more casters carrying the spell.

as it is right now, not many do because the spell is expensive and not very useful.

but if soul gems become a requirement for crafting, more casters start carrying the spell, soul gems become more available, and the value of them drops off a cliff.

and as for me personally, if soul gems did become used in crafting, i would happily carry the TtS spell and sell the gems at the cost of the components to make them (i would give them away for free, but Khyber shards are expensive)

Not to mention most casters (inculding mine) would problably ask the party to hold back in certain quests like Ritual Sacrifice so they can get the soul gems from the earth and air elementals.

[oradafu]

Basically you're saying that someone either needs to play a caster (in order to cast Trap The Soul) or start playing Epic AND use a character that can wield a quarterstaff without cramping his style in order to effectively use Cannith Crafting. Or the other alternative: buy the gems from the small amount of players that actually are willing to do this. I fail to see how this is any better than the dev proposals in patch 10.1.

The quarterstaff is simple ki weapon, so every class can use it without penalty effectively. If you don't like the quarterstaff, you can make a GS Vacuum item.

If you really need the soul gems, supply a caster with the dragonshards and he/she will usually get them for you for free or a fee of one Soul Gem for every 2 dragonshards needed. Yes, this surprisingly works, even if you have no friends or guild... I know this because this is how I obtained Soul Gems for the Adamantine ritual.

As I stated, I was talking more about Greater Bane shards than the other shards. And yes, I do think Greater Bane shards should be slightly harder to make than other banes. Soul Gems seem like a fairly simple way of doing this...especially when the alternative was originally going to be raid loot.

[Drfirewater79]

And how did you obtain said weapon? I'm taking a wild guess here. You found a high level party and grinded Epic Quests until you had all the required ingredients. How is this different than grinding high level raids in order to get the invaluable ingredients that patch 10.1 had proposed to bring to Cannith Crafting?

Basically you're saying that someone either needs to play a caster (in order to cast Trap The Soul) or start playing Epic AND use a character that can wield a quarterstaff without cramping his style in order to effectively use Cannith Crafting. Or the other alternative: buy the gems from the small amount of players that actually are willing to do this. I fail to see how this is any better than the dev proposals in patch 10.1.

You want to know how its different?

I have been playign since march 2nd 2006 .. i have raided 1-3 times nearly every single day for the last 5+ years in this game ... in 5+ years of doing 100's of titans i have seen 5 chattering rings .. 2 of which i have pulled and 1 of those 2 was in a 20th rewards (best thing they ever did if you ask me). I have done over 200 dragon raids .. and have only seen 10 SoS's pulled ... i have 1 and a second i could have taken on my monk and the barb who already has it on 20th runs (first 130 runs where before the 20th run system and stopped grinding for it until epics came out)

I have 6 characters i run epics on almost daily ... i have maybe 9 pieces of epic gear (not including cove) total on all 6 and i have grinded for months on end dropping all other content (but raids) attempting to get the last shard or seal or scroll i need for a crafting recipie.

When they add these heavy grinds it makes you sick of the content faster .... if you want people to grind raid loot for crafting (to which crafted gear is no where near the value of most raid gear or epic gear) then you have to get rid of raid timers all together to allow people to grind it .... and you have to increase there drop rates considerably on harder difficulties ...

all of which disvalues the gear itself ... all to add to a crafting system we where just fine without? how does that make sense?

Allowing people to deconstruct raid gear for 10 times the amount of ingredients ... that i would agree with far before using raid gear as ingredients.

There is a big difference in the grinds .. and if you dont know that then you dont raid.

[Drfirewater79]

The quarterstaff is simple ki weapon, so every class can use it without penalty effectively. If you don't like the quarterstaff, you can make a GS Vacuum item.

If you really need the soul gems, supply a caster with the dragonshards and he/she will usually get them for you for free or a fee of one Soul Gem for every 2 dragonshards needed. Yes, this surprisingly works, even if you have no friends or guild... I know this because this is how I obtained Soul Gems for the Adamantine ritual.

As I stated, I was talking more about Greater Bane shards than the other shards. And yes, I do think Greater Bane shards should be slightly harder to make than other banes. Soul Gems seem like a fairly simple way of doing this...especially when the alternative was originally going to be raid loot.

FYI you can buy tiny's with in game plat ... i think in amarath ... drop a couple thosand plat and buy the ingredients you need for trap the soul on a caster its easy. You make a ton just doing loot runs in amarath then turn around and buy ingredients .. if you have no casters ... there are lots of ways to get them .. as well as buying them on AH

[Buggss]

Not too keen on soul gems in crafting. I think it's fine as it was using essences and collectibles. The levelling up to be able to make anything of use take long enough already, especially for casual players which as we all know is the vast majority of the game's population.

[EllisDee37]

Very intriguing idea. Would probably require much more work than changing recipe ingredients though.

Details of the idea spelled out here.

[nolaureltree000]

i posted this in another thread, but i wanted to move it here to the official thread in hopes of ensuring it gets read by devs.

unless crafting is revised so it only uses crafting specific ingredients (essences, those mystical urns etc, and whatever other crafting ingredients they want to create in the future) ill probably quit with crafting all together. no way in hell im using GS larges to craft my items. that seems to defeat the whole purpose of crafting and creates a prerequisite where turbine is forcing players to buy certain packs. it makes something that was already pretty grindy for me, to something that becomes grindy AND costly. after 1 1/2 years of playing and probably 80+ shroud completions on all my toons i STILL dont have HP and SP items/lit IIs/etc for all my toons. and now they want to throw in tome crunching and favor requirements?

no thanks.

[Aeolwind]

"MudFloyd"

2 D's, Samuel Mudd is the doctor of reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Mudd for you non-history buffs.

But, kudos on the right move to halt the patch. It would be very bad and have a very negative impact on those players that don't read the forums.

And yes, I wear a tinfoil hat because I, too, believe that ya'll jack up requirements on things only to sneak in other things. Lesser of the evils and all that.

[voodoogroves]

What if soul gems had a chance to drop from named critters on all difficulties? Orange/red/purple? And dropped randomly into someone's inventory like an epic scroll?

[oradafu]

i posted this in another thread, but i wanted to move it here to the official thread in hopes of ensuring it gets read by devs.

unless crafting is revised so it only uses crafting specific ingredients (essences, those mystical urns etc, and whatever other crafting ingredients they want to create in the future) ill probably quit with crafting all together. no way in hell im using GS larges to craft my items. that seems to defeat the whole purpose of crafting and creates a prerequisite where turbine is forcing players to buy certain packs. it makes something that was already pretty grindy for me, to something that becomes grindy AND costly. after 1 1/2 years of playing and probably 80+ shroud completions on all my toons i STILL dont have HP and SP items/lit IIs/etc for all my toons. and now they want to throw in tome crunching and favor requirements?

no thanks.

I agree with alot of what you're saying. I'd like to see general crafting to stick with items that are fairly easy to obtain, such as collectibles. I believe that no collectibles are specific for only a certain adv pack, so everyone would have a chance of getting them.

What if soul gems had a chance to drop from named critters on all difficulties? Orange/red/purple? And dropped randomly into someone's inventory like an epic scroll?

A better idea for Soul Gems (if they become useful) would be to have them appear in chests of named casters. But only if this doesn't mess up the loot tables! Also, they could have a chance to appear in the stacks of gold that currently drop only junk scrolls and masterworks. To me, it makes sense that the gold horded by dragons in Tor (for exmaple) would have a few Soul Gems of unfortunate adventures or others...

[BTIGER]

DEVS-
The current incarnation of Cannith crafting supports solo players very well. Honestly, that's all I really care about. I have two crafters who are about average level 30 in all disciplines, but the future looks fun.
I don't have anything to say about power players and how they are exploiting what you made. I don't have the ability to do that. I play 10-20 hours a week and I am exclusively a soloer. I do not see this changing, but I do see myself switching games if my soloability decreases (ie. 6 games in last 6 years).

I understand "the train is stopped", but I want the Devs to know you should really think about what you are going to do here. If you want to take away the ability of soloers to enjoy being able to craft items better than they can find, you are making a mistake. You are going to lose people. You have shown me one of the best crafting systems I have seen for my playstyle and honestly you cannot take it away without repercussions now.

If you want to shut that door, you're going to kill my motivation for your game. Sorry but that's the truth.
I love crafting in all MMOs, because of what it can represent. Freedom from the named loot and raid grinds. Let's keep it basically the way it is.

[Full_Bleed]

Economics 101: demand creats supply, supply drives down the price.

if Soul Gems were required for crafting, you would see ALOT more casters carrying the spell.

as it is right now, not many do because the spell is expensive and not very useful.

but if soul gems become a requirement for crafting, more casters start carrying the spell, soul gems become more available, and the value of them drops off a cliff.

and as for me personally, if soul gems did become used in crafting, i would happily carry the TtS spell and sell the gems at the cost of the components to make them (i would give them away for free, but Khyber shards are expensive)

Then why use them at all?

You're arguing that there will be an abundant supply that will simply make them worth the cost of the components. So why not just put a crafting ingredient on the crafting vendor that equals the cost of the soul gem components and be done with it. If casters have nothing to gain from controlling the soul gem market, and they are so easy to make, then making them important in crafting will just be a hassle for people that don't have casters and epic soul eaters.

Again, crafting is currently a classless system. It just doesn't make sense to make soul gems a crafting bottle neck for all other classes unless all classes are given some unique bottlenecks to bargain with.

I have a sneaking suspicion that casters out there wouldn't like it if they needed high level Bards, Rogues, Clerics, Paladins, Monks, etc to provide them with ingredients in the same way that all the other classes would be dependent on them. Heck, I can only imagine what the uproar would be over making a popular recipe require something that only Favored Souls produced.

[stille_nacht]

just, twinblade o-O
silver flame pots are perhaps the worst, especially since hb goes on every crafted item ever.

out of curiousness, how many millions of plat and hours of grinding would levelling have been with all these now required items and raid loot? near impossible?