Feedback - Crafting - Update 10, Patch 1

[Ironforge_Clan]

I'll go a bit further: if anyone is intimidated to post on this thread (I know that some of you are), I invite you to PM me your thoughts.

While I appreciate the offer when have you ever know us to be intimidated to post!

[Setin_Myways]

I can't say that I have personally noticed anyone asking for it (doesn't mean you haven't, just means I haven't seen it), but I do know it's something high on our list of considerations and we have been debating it.

We plan to make more changes for the next update and of course we want to make the right changes. That's why I'm here inviting feedback and I think we're getting a lot of very constructive thoughts.

^^^This - being able to craft outside the current slot restrictions would make it all worth it. even if you needed an 'out of normal slot' shard to do so.

I can think of about 6 threads debating this of the last few months.

Glad to see you are listening and I ma sure you cannot follow every thread.

[Backley]

Another thing asked for (and even admitted by a few devs) that seems to have been forgotten:
Fix the Minimum Level of Crafted items to be equal-to or less-than random-gen items with the same attribute in all cases. This is more important to me that relaxing gear slots.

[TheDearLeader]

So... I see that it's closed. Did they list a reason *why* they closed it anywhere?

I mean.. my best guess is an exploit, which naturally they won't tell us the nature of, nor would we/should we discuss it. But it doesn't seem like it would hurt to say "there was an exploit, we closed it down to fix it".

Guess it's time to get that Silver Flame favor...

[Kalari]

So... I see that it's closed. Did they list a reason *why* they closed it anywhere?

I mean.. my best guess is an exploit, which naturally they won't tell us the nature of, nor would we/should we discuss it. But it doesn't seem like it would hurt to say "there was an exploit, we closed it down to fix it".

Guess it's time to get that Silver Flame favor...

I keep seeing this and doubt it was the E word.

Im thinking they had to roll out this update and even though they told us crafting would not be apart of it the new version at least there was no way they could put the update out and take it out without causing a major headache.

so the easier way to do it is put the full update 10.1 in close up the crafting hall while they test their new new version out to make sure the pitchforks and torches are put away for now. I have a feeling if I could get my rogue into that crafting hall right now id see all those ridiculous recipes that were not supposed to make it live..just saying

[EllisDee37]

I keep seeing this and doubt it was the E word.

Im thinking they had to roll out this update and even though they told us crafting would not be apart of it the new version at least there was no way they could put the update out and take it out without causing a major headache.

so the easier way to do it is put the full update 10.1 in close up the crafting hall while they test their new new version out to make sure the pitchforks and torches are put away for now. I have a feeling if I could get my rogue into that crafting hall right now id see all those ridiculous recipes that were not supposed to make it live..just saying

Nope. I was in the crafting hall for around 10 minutes before I got kicked out along with everyone else. The first thing I did was check the recipes I was worried about.

Holy stayed the same (yay!)
Lawful Outsider Bane and Chaotic Outsider bane now require a raid collectable or something (booo!)
Holy Burst / Greater Outsider Bane require the new purified shards but no named raid loot

[Yaga_Nub]

We always have a dialog as long as it remains civil. Regarding transparency, there will always be certain things that I cannot disclose, but other than that the biggest obstacle is that we have to be extremely careful in how we word things. For example, where did we ever say or infer that we want to punish the majority of players because of a small number of hard core players accomplishments? For whatever historic reasons, the tendency to jump to the conclusions that devs aren't trying to do the right thing for the game makes it tricky for many to communicate here.

Did we ever say that we wouldn't relax slot restrictions? I can't say that I have personally noticed anyone asking for it (doesn't mean you haven't, just means I haven't seen it), but I do know it's something high on our list of considerations and we have been debating it.

We plan to make more changes for the next update and of course we want to make the right changes. That's why I'm here inviting feedback and I think we're getting a lot of very constructive thoughts.

I'll go a bit further: if anyone is intimidated to post on this thread (I know that some of you are), I invite you to PM me your thoughts.

I don't want this to sound combative but with the 10.1 update, it does seem like you are inferring that you want to punish the top 5% of the players/crafters but unfortunately it also punishes the rest of the us. I just don't see how the addition of Pure Eberron shards and favor loot as crafting materials was meant for anything other than a way to slow down the top crafters.

On transparency, I, and I think everyone else, knows you can't just be 100% open and transparent but as long as you are as honest as you can be to our questions then I think everyone will be ok with that. Along those lines can you finally tell us about the reasoning for the ML on crafted bound weapon being higher than a similar random loot item? If you can't, that's cool, but if you could at least let us know that it's one of those decisions that you'd rather not talk about then I can respect that.

Thanks for listening to us on the crafting issues. Now, if we can get you to reverse the changes to the Admirals of Bling then things would be alright in the DDO universe.

[anto_capone]

Please relax slot restrictions.

I think my main crafter is around level 35 in each school of crafting. I have hundreds and hundred of essences I just stockpile because I am a bit disillusioned about it all.

I was really hoping to be more creative with it, and to 'fit' things in slots that I have open but it seems I can only add a single prefix and suffix and can only add them to a regular slot that is on every standard piece of loot(can't add true seeing to boots etc). I was hoping to make some metal wraps but they don't exist, nor work. I was hoping to eventually be able to make gear for my toons when they TR, but it seems to make no sense as ML restrictions go.

I have a guildie that spent hours making an extensive spreadsheet for crafting, found here.

We've both found that its a lot of work as average players, and she has been doing it hardcore with a lot of guild help. I think last I checked she was about level 50 in each.
I haven't checked the crafting hall since the update, but I kind of dread going in there anymore because I've been dismayed at the options it's presented.

Was hoping for it to be more special, creative, original..

Instead it feels like a monotonous grind that some people can tolerate and afford more than others. I have neither the time or the money to grind into placing myself in a position that I can craft useful equipment that is neither original or advantageous over current random loot drops and select raid gear.

[Kalari]

Nope. I was in the crafting hall for around 10 minutes before I got kicked out along with everyone else. The first thing I did was check the recipes I was worried about.

Holy stayed the same (yay!)
Lawful Outsider Bane and Chaotic Outsider bane now require a raid collectable or something (booo!)
Holy Burst / Greater Outsider Bane require the new purified shards but no named raid loot

I stand corrected

[EllisDee37]

I was hoping to eventually be able to make gear for my toons when they TR, but it seems to make no sense as ML restrictions go.

Along with DR breakers, crafting twink gear for TRs is exactly where Cannith Crafting shines specifically because of ML.

The stat bonuses are annoyingly limited slot-wise -- ogre power bracers would help a ton -- but at your crafting level you get +2 ML3 and +3 ML5 stat gear, cheap to produce and can have guild augment slots of your choice. (Provided you find the augment slot gear yourself.)

Skills are also great on crafted gear, and even better, any skill (except UMD) can be crafted onto any piece of clothing or jewelry. Crafted skill bonuses at your crafting level are +5 ML3, +7 ML5, and a little higher crafting level (low 40s IIRC) will get you +10 ML7 gear. The slot flexibility is fantastic; putting search and spot on (for example) cloak and necklace to free up goggles for attack +2 bonus (also a great piece of twink TR gear) is pretty sweet for trapmonkeys. And again, guild augment slots of your choice.

Situational twink gear is also nice. An ML3* non-clicky pair of goggles of detect secret doors, an ML5 helm of underwater action, and an ML1 feather falling cloak are three examples that immediately spring to mind.

*Not positive on this, but my lvl8 cleric is wearing a crafted pair of Blindness Ward Goggles of Detect Secret Doors that are ML7, and I'm pretty sure Blindness Ward is +2, meaning Detect Secret Doors would have to be +2.

[Bodic]

Holy Burst / Greater Outsider Bane require the new purified shards but no named raid loot

Really you didnt take into considerationt the 400 favor required on your crafting toon so you must be lvl 16+ to even think about HOLY burst crafting. and own all of the necro(read Silver Flame) packs or be VIP.

[EllisDee37]

Really you didnt take into considerationt the 400 favor required on your crafting toon so you must be lvl 16+ to even think about HOLY burst crafting. and own all of the necro(read Silver Flame) packs or be VIP.

My crafting toon is a gimp; I'll never be able to craft with favor rewards.

[Seikojin]

I think, as far as slot restrictions are concerned, it would be pretty easy to make a shard that allows you to bypass the restriction. OR a shard for a different slot with a higher crafting level requirement.

I think the latter would be easier to make, development wise.

[Seikojin]

As far as the grind in the 30's... On Lam, I did hit a steeper incline for crafting. The last time I looked though, the costs for most things in my level range was actually fair.

What I think isn't fair is the essences for deconning. You get soo much more from lvl 5 abilities than lvl 4 abilities, that most people waste a ton of time farming items that give minimal returns.

To fix this, I think you should make a second set of prefix and suffix disjoining potions. One that gets lessers specifically, and one that gets greaters. They can still have a variable return, just targeted so crafting is more planned out and less of a lottery.

And addressing the returns, I think the range is too wide between each ability level. I dont have the latest info available, but I think it should be:
level 1: 1 - 8 lessers + 1/10th crafters level, or 1 - 3 greaters + 1/25th crafters level
level 2: 2 - 16 lessers + 1/10th crafters level, or 2 - 6 greaters + 1/25th crafters level
level 3: 3 - 24 lessers + 1/10th crafters level, or 3 - 9 greaters + 1/25th crafters level
level 4: 4 - 32 lessers + 1/10th crafters level, or 4 - 12 greaters + 1/25th crafters level
level 5: 5 - 40 lessers + 1/10th crafters level, or 5 - 15 greaters + 1/25th crafters level

[Seikojin]

For high end gear becoming ultra common... I think something like what you are doing is good. The items in question aren't I think. But I like the dragonshard requirement. It seems like the best. I think the highest end abilities would require flawless, but I would have to look at a chart of abilities to really weigh the power to cost.

[negativeprogression]

I don't think it is a good idea at all to use shroud ingredients (or any ingredient from existing crafting systems) or favour rewards for cannith crafting.

Instead I would propose that special ingredients drop from killed mobs, depending on the way in which they died.

This would mean soul gems stayed as cannith ingredients, but I would strongly suggest that instead of being available only to the first person to click the bag, everyone can click the bag.

Then a variety of different ingredients can be generated from different death situations.

Here are some examples I've thought of:

Trophy Heads: Death by Vorpal.

Ashes: Disintegrated, Incinerated or Imploded.

Still Beating Hearts: A Monk rips out an enemies heart using Quivering Palm.

There are many, many possible death situations and these create an opportunity to create many different ingredients, that could be graded by the level of mob they are obtained from in order to fill the need for more unique ingredients for the crafting system. There would be a class pre-requisite to obtain some, but because the bags would be available to all it would still be possible to obtain the items by questing with said class.

[MadFloyd]

I don't want this to sound combative but with the 10.1 update, it does seem like you are inferring that you want to punish the top 5% of the players/crafters but unfortunately it also punishes the rest of the us. I just don't see how the addition of Pure Eberron shards and favor loot as crafting materials was meant for anything other than a way to slow down the top crafters.

On transparency, I, and I think everyone else, knows you can't just be 100% open and transparent but as long as you are as honest as you can be to our questions then I think everyone will be ok with that. Along those lines can you finally tell us about the reasoning for the ML on crafted bound weapon being higher than a similar random loot item? If you can't, that's cool, but if you could at least let us know that it's one of those decisions that you'd rather not talk about then I can respect that.

Thanks for listening to us on the crafting issues. Now, if we can get you to reverse the changes to the Admirals of Bling then things would be alright in the DDO universe.

Regarding the ML. I've been avoiding answering that one because it's complicated. Let's start off with this: the goal was to have the min level on crafting items be 1 less than random treasure. That said, it turned out to be tricky do to. We have someone trying to solve the situation but the way the random treasure system assigns min levels is wonky. To be honest, I'm now getting worried we won't solve this, but that's not an official conclusion (just me being echoing my thoughts).

[Cyr]

Regarding the ML. I've been avoiding answering that one because it's complicated. Let's start off with this: the goal was to have the min level on crafting items be 1 less than random treasure. That said, it turned out to be tricky do to. We have someone trying to solve the situation but the way the random treasure system assigns min levels is wonky. To be honest, I'm now getting worried we won't solve this, but that's not an official conclusion (just me being echoing my thoughts).

One less then the ML for what type of random loot?

There is unrestricted stuff and then there is RR stuff. They both are different and both are less restrictive then BtC which is the result of crafting.

[scottmike0]

Regarding the ML. I've been avoiding answering that one because it's complicated. Let's start off with this: the goal was to have the min level on crafting items be 1 less than random treasure. That said, it turned out to be tricky do to. We have someone trying to solve the situation but the way the random treasure system assigns min levels is wonky. To be honest, I'm now getting worried we won't solve this, but that's not an official conclusion (just me being echoing my thoughts).

why cant we just not remember the crafting and remove it all together. it has been more trouble than anything.
make crafting gear only so people wouldnt complain. its also much easier to just take it out and make the balance equal.

in terms : make crafting gear only A.
B. remove crafting altogether so people will do less complaining and more shrouds!

[dkyle]

Regarding the ML. I've been avoiding answering that one because it's complicated. Let's start off with this: the goal was to have the min level on crafting items be 1 less than random treasure. That said, it turned out to be tricky do to. We have someone trying to solve the situation but the way the random treasure system assigns min levels is wonky. To be honest, I'm now getting worried we won't solve this, but that's not an official conclusion (just me being echoing my thoughts).

There are a few problems at play here.

First, some shards are simply wrong. Greater Banes are supposed to be +3 enchantment level, but are actually +4 enchantment level in crafting. Perhaps this is intended given how potent they are, but surely the +2 enchantment level Pure Good isn't? And all those casting shards that show one plus in the shard crafter (e.g., +3 for Superior Brilliance V), but suddenly show another in the item maker (+5)? These should all be a simple matter of fixing the shards to apply the correct enchantment level.

Second, the calculation used to convert total enchantment level to ML is the same for both accessories and weapons/armor, whereas random gear uses a separate scheme for each. But to be honest, I don't think the end result here is bad. Accessories end up -2 ML compared to random, and weapons end up +1 ML (ignoring the broken shards above). This seems entirely reasonable to me. Random accessories are, in general, worth very little unless they're race-restricted and absolutely clean. Without the ML discount, few accessories would be worth crafting.

On the other hand, random weapons can be genuinely rare and valuable, even without an RR. This is because they actually benefit from synergies between prefix, metal, and suffix, whereas on accessories, anything but a pure prefix or pure suffix is almost always vendor trash. The ability to choose that combination on crafted weapons makes them inherently potent. They're great even with the +1 ML cost. Putting them at a -1 ML compared to random is just not necessary.


So, in short, seems to me the easy solution is all that's needed: fix the shards that have inconsistent enchantment levels assigned to them. The hard part, the ML formula, can stay as it is.

One less then the ML for what type of random loot?

There is unrestricted stuff and then there is RR stuff. They both are different and both are less restrictive then BtC which is the result of crafting.

A BtC item produced from BtA and Unbound ingredients is quite different than a found BtC item. It's nowhere near as meaningful a restriction.

I see little justification for the BtC of crafted items to count towards reducing ML.