Optimizing Skill Point allocation...

[MacRighteous]

When I play around with the character planner and experiment with different custom builds I always punt on the skill points and if my build ever makes it to the game, I just copy the skill point allocation on what other builders have done on similar builds....

This id due to not understanding how to maximize my skill points and what numbers I should be looking at when investing in a skill...

I've read the Wiki and google'd the concept but I am no closer to having a complete understanding then before.

I have seen some builder use a skill chart something like this...

Skill.......Level 1....Level 2....Level 3...
Jump.........2............2............2........
Balance.....1.............X...........1........
Heal..........X............2............X........

But I still dont understand the logic and most importantly the "why's" of investing when and how much into any skill... I get that I want high numbers on primary skills and less points into secondary skills... but the whole concept just kind of escapes me as I don't get the maximum allocation of points into any specific skill at any specific level.... (I'm afraid i don't even have a good enough grasp to ask the right question here) I know it really isn't going to make much difference either way.... but i would still like to be comfortable when allocating skill points in my build instead of copying what others do.


Any one care to reveal some of the secrets and clear up the mystery for me... or am I over thinking it?

[Lonnbeimnech]

or am I over thinking it?

Yes.


1. Put one point into tumble.
2. Any skill you want to make use of, max it. Such as...
a. umd
b. if trapper > search/disable
c. if caster > spellcraft
d. if self healing > heal
e. if stealth build > move silent/hide
f. if bard > perform
3. If you have skill points left over, either lower your int at character creation or put the skill point somewhere, doesn't matter where.
4. any str based build likely needs 0 points in jump to have maxed jump (40) at cap, but if you are planning on TRing that life, you might want to put points into jump anyway to make some low level quests faster.


That's about it.

[LargoKeyWest]

Some builds use multiple classes, so if both classes make use of the same skill, but 1 only gives you half a point per train, and the other gives you a full point, always chose the class that's going to give you the most for your effort. This may require you to skip training in something occasionally if you are class swapping frequently.

[CThruTheEgo]

I assume you're asking about skill point allocation with multiclass builds. With pure class builds it should be pretty simple because you know exactly how many skill points you'll get and therefore how many skills you can max. In that situation, Lonnbeimnech's list is a good guide. I would add to it repair for any warforged or bladeforged that's going to be relying on repair spells for self healing. I would also add spot and open locks to trappers, although spot isn't needed if you know where traps are and open locks does not need to be maxed to get 98% of doors/chests in the game (there's really only a handful of doors/chests in the game wi super high DCs that require max ranks in open locks). I would also add that balance is important for nearly every build, especially melees, but less important for builds that will fight mobs at a distance (e.g. ranged dps or some casters), although they may still want some too. For anyone who does not know, balance is used to determine how quickly you get up after being knocked down. It has nothing to do with whether you get knocked down in the first place – that is a str or dex check. That's why balance is important for nearly all builds, because you don't do dps and are left vulnerable when you're on your back.

Multiclass builds are trickier. For a mutliclass build, you're first priority should be making sure that your class levels will allow you to get all the feats you want and in the order you want them. Second priority should be getting key enhancements when you want them. Third priority is maxing skills. Sometimes those first two are not an issue, so you can just put the classes in any order you want to max your skills. Please note that the order of these priorities is a generalization and is not absolute for every multiclass build.

To max skills, you want to put skill points into class skills as much as possible and avoid putting points into cross class skills except where necessary. There's really no hard and fast rules about it. It's just something you have to play around with for each build to try and get the most out of your skill points. Here is what I do when planning a multiclass build tohelp me organize and max skills.

1) write down what skills are relevant to the build and in their order of importance
2) write down each class I'm taking and what skills on my list are class based skills for that class
3) write down how many skill points each class gets per level
4) figure out how many extra skill points I'll get from whatever int tome I have, if any, and remember to add those points at their appropriate levels to augment that particular classes skill points for that level
5) usually start with the class which grants the most skill points at first level to get the most points
6) take other classes within the next level or two to open up cross class investment opportunities. For example: monk gets the balance skill while ranger does not, but ranger gets more skill poins than monk. So I'd take ranger at first level to max skill points, then monk at level 2 to open up the option to put 2 skill points into balance when I take a ranger level and keep balance at max ranks. That's just an example for illustartion purposes.
7) take all of the above into account and start playing around with different leveling orders, planning skill point investment for each option to get the most out of my skills, while taking into consideration how those leveling orders affect feats and enhancements. As you do this you'll begin to notice patterns for your build, that is, you'll see that there's a way to alternate your classes every few levels to keep your skill investment maxed. But those patterns are unique to every build because they are dependent on which classes you take and what skills you want.
8) stop planning when you've found the leveling order that gives you the right balance between feats, enhancements, and skills

It seems like a lot of work and that's because it is. Some people don't care about their skills, but if you do and want to max them, then this is one way to do it. Have a look at the skill section to Santa's Little Slayer in my sig to get an idea of what the end result looks like. Please note, however, that for that build, feats and enhancements required a certain leveling order which restricted my flexibility with skills. The feats have changed due to game updates, so there might be a more optimal leveling order now, but I simply don't want to go through the trouble of planning it all out again for a build I no longer play.

[phillymiket]

Basic Skills

Jump - 40 is the cap, armor gives a penalty, sneak give a -20 penalty. Jump spell/clickies are +30 so Your jump + STR mod + 30 - your penalty = 40 or better for max.

UMD - 43 is no fail for anything you are going really going to use. 39 for Heal, 51 for anything at all. Remember you may have neg levels when you are UMDing so extra points aren't bad.

Balance - (you get up faster) 30+ is when it seems to make a big difference but don't have real numbers here. Really good for Healer IMO.

Tumble - 1 point = roll. Rolling sometimes is good. 31+ back flips, 36+ front flips. Good only for entertainment IMO.

Concentration - Casters for scrolls or w/o quicken, Monk for ki, Go max if you need this. Also helps for scroll healing but hard to find points to spend here unless monk/caster.

Swim - Dump this. No where is it needed, not even in The Crucible.

Haggle - Max or None. It does make a difference. I still say dump this. Plat is easy to get. skill points are not. If Bard or Rogue then maybe.

Perception Skills

Spot - With a low Wis toon, a few points will show some mobs, max points most mobs and traps.

Search - Cross skill (half points) + item = most Secret Doors. Full points + item for trapping.

Listen - Not used as much. If you are going to use this then go max IMO but it is not needed unless you are a stealth build IMO.

Social Skills

Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy - If you are going to use one of these in combat, then max it. Otherwise dump it, with the exception that putting 4 points in them at 1st level if doing a rogue/bard multi-class will allow you to do many NCP options if you have an item/buffs, so that may be worth it, but don't expect to Bluff a live enemy with only 4 points spent.

Rogue Skills

Disable/Search - Go max.

Open Lock - Just a few points will open just about everything in the game. Only a few places have tough DCs and these are all, to a one, for only extra chests of random loot or extra optionals. But rogues have skill points so why not max anyway? If splash rogue type this can be a 4 points only skill.

Spot - I say go max, others say dump. It's your call but I say max or none, halfway is silly. If a splash rogue you can dump this if you know where everything is.

Hide/Move Silently - Max or None. You can't have enough if you are a sneaker otherwise dump.

Caster Skills

Spellcraft/Heal/Repair/Perform - Max these if you are a serious caster. If you are a "sometimes self-heal" type with tight skill points then maybe dump the heal/spellcraft.

Concentration - Some people dump this. I say go max.

Planning is important.
If you are a Rogue splash it is better to "catch up" on skills like Disable/Search/UMD when you are on a rogue level and spending 1:1 for skill point then to spend two points per skill point on them in cross-skill levels but you don't want to get caught without enough points to max them and you also don't want to leave yourself too gimp between rogue levels waiting for a rogue level to catch up... so plan.
I try to always avoid cross-class 2:1 points if I can.
I tend to, hypothetically, spend on Concentration/Heal on Pally level, then bump up Hide/MS on monk level, then trapping on rogue level, then back to Conc/heal when back to Pally etc. etc. rather than sticking with the same skills even at a 2:1 buy.
(edit ^^^this may be false for you^^^ I have Arti PLs on both trappers and full sets of masterfully crafted BTA gear for each level. If you are 1st life and not well geared it might be best to lose a few skill points and not blow up the trap box!)
It can be a juggling act on a 3 class split but it is worth planning out for maximum skill points, minimum waste.

1/2 points do nothing so don't leave yourself with 11.5 points in UMD. Spend that point elsewhere.

[Enoach]

For multiclassing and skill points it can be very daunting to figure out the best way to maximize your skill point usage.

I've actually taken to using a Spreadsheet myself, making a list of the Skills on the left side and track what are cross class (take 2 Skill Points = 1 Full Point in skill) for each level

the formula gets complex with multiple classes but it is a great way to see how if I spend points this level vs that level in skills how I can keep my relevant skills such as Search/Disable/Locks/Spot optimal (maybe not MAX but very close) and how that is going to effect me each level.

I currently have a 14/4/2 Bard/Artificer/Rogue and it took me some time to decide on the 2nd Rogue level as all three of these classes get a decent amount of skills per level. I also tweaked around with my starting INT just to get a feel for "what if" I started higher or lower and if the totals would be "good enough" for me. I probably spent more time working these skill distributions out than any other build I have combined. But it was fun for me and in game I feel it makes a good payoff as I have not found a Trap/Door/Look that I could not spot/see or take care off. Mind you I don't have any of these skills in the 100s but low 80s seems to work out rather well so far.

[EllisDee37]

I'll take you through my logic on designing skill ranks on a 15/5 pally/rogue. This is the +4 int tome version, for my actual character on live:

. . . . . O. P. P. P. P. P. P. O. P. P. P. P. P. O. P. P. O. P. P. O
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 2. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 2. . .2 .2 .1 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. . .2 .1 .1 .23
Heal. . . 2. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 4. . .1 .4 . . 15
UMD . . . 4. . . . . . . . . . 7. . . . . . . . .6 . . . .3 . . . .3 .23
Disable . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. . .2 .1 . . 2. 23
Search. . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Open Lo . 4. . . . . . . . . . 3. . . . . . . . .4 . . . .7 . . . .5 .23
Balance . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Jump. . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Haggle. . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Swim. . . 3. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .44. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 6 12 .6 .6 .6 .6 .6 12. 7. 7 13 .7 .7 13


Starting premise:

• First and foremost, as a trapper, I want to not only maximize search and disable, I want to keep them maxed at every level. So those are the easiest.
• I'd like to maximize Open Lock for epic levels so that I can hit the 80 DC checks without dragging along the level 24 rogue hire. This isn't so important in heroics, though, as the initial 4 ranks at level 1 is good enough for most heroic locks.
• UMD is great to have, but is essentially useless before level 10 and when you need it from 10-20 you can usually just keep retrying until you succeed, like a teleport scroll. So while I want a full 23 ranks in UMD, that one can be put off until later and "caught up" on in big chunks.
• I actually use concentration for casting my in-combat heals, so I prefer keeping this maxed each level, starting at level 5, when I get cure light wounds.
• After all other goals are met, any extra points go in Heal.

My leveling concept is to start rogue @ 1 for skills, get six paladin levels by level 7 in time to get ghost touch (kotc core) for delera's 1 and necro1, take rogue 2 for evasion, then race to pally 11 for cure moderate. After I'm at 11/2 pally/rogue, the rest of the paladin and rogue levels can come whenever, so I spaced the rogue levels evenly for skills: 14, 17 and 20.

In the early levels (2-6) before the int tome kicks in, I get 5 skill points per level. So I use those to keep disable and search maxed (4 points total) and put the fifth in concentration, the highest priority native class skill (for me) as a paladin.

At 7 I'm still a paladin, and get an extra point thanks to the tome, so I catch up a tiny bit on concentration.

At 8 I forsake concentration to get the most value possible out of the native rogue skills. I keep search and disable maxed, and max out UMD (4 ranks @ 1 + 7 ranks @ 8 = 11 ranks, the max for level 8.) The rest go into Open Lock, which is lagging behind quite a bit but since it's only level 8 it's no biggee.

The next two paladin levels I put the extra tome point into concentration to max it out by level 10. With concentration maxed, I start putting the extra points into heal, again taking advantage of native class skills.

At 14, my next rogue level, I again max out UMD (4 + 7 + 6 = 17, the max for level 14), keep search and disable maxed, and put the rest into open lock.

At 15 it's a simple matter of catching up on concentration.

From 16 on is where it goes outside the box a bit. Since UMD is so close to maxed, and open lock is starting to get in the ballpark of maxed, I will end up with a few more rogue skill ranks than I need. So here I skimp on one of the key trapping skills to buff up heal, since heal is native for paladins. Search has no roll; you either succeed or you fail. Disable has a roll, allowing you to keep retrying. So in terms of sacrificing one rank for one level, it makes more sense to sacrifice disable than search. Those "extra" two ranks I would normally put in disable instead move over to heal.

At 17 (rogue) I again max out umd, search and disable, with the rest going into open lock.

18 (paladin) does the standard max out search, disable and concentration, with the rest going into heal.

19 is the last pally level, the last chance to work on heal, so I again skimp on disable and put those extra ranks into heal.

20 (rogue) finishes us off by fully maxing all of concentration, search, disable, umd and open lock.

[EllisDee37]

Here's a second example, my kensei warpriest. (12/8 Fighter/Cleric). This is the skill breakdown for the tome-less version, the one posted to the forums:

. . . . . F. F. C. F. C. F. C. F. C. F. C. F. C. F. C. F. F. F. F. C
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Heal. . . 2. . . . . .1 . . 3. . .3 . . 3. . .3 . . 3. . . . 1. . .3 .22
Concent . . .1 .4 . . 3. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 2. . . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. . .1 . . 1. 1. . .1 . . 11
Jump. . . 4. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Balance . 1. 1. . .1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Tumble. . 1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .16. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4. 4


This skill table is more modest, with only two goals: Max out both concentration and UMD. Any extra can go into heal.

The leveling concept here is completely unrelated to skills. My two primary concerns are: 1) always have a fighter icon in parties, and 2) get to cleric 7 for FoM and deathward asap. Since an even split would show a cleric icon, I start with two fighter levels. Then I switch back and forth between cleric and fighter until I have 7 cleric levels. The last (8th) cleric level doesn't add much to the build, so I push that back to level 20. That has a secondary benefit of helping out skills, since 20 being a cleric instead of a fighter gives me a last chance to work on concentration and heal with both being native.

I always like to put one rank into tumble at level 1, so I start there. UMD is a cross class skill for both fighters and clerics, so no better time than the present to max UMD. In the early levels, a little extra jump never hurt anybody, so that gets the full 4 ranks.

It's worth pointing out that after level 1, all skill ranks taken are cross class for fighter, so there's no "saving" ranks to take natively on fighter levels.

For concentration, I skip it as much as possible in the first two (fighter) levels and then max it with the first two cleric levels (3 and 5), and then keep it maxed the rest of the way.

For UMD, I dislike ever taking half ranks of any skill unless completely unavoidable, so the concept is to just give it a full rank (2 points) every other level. Note that while UMD is cross-class for both fighter and cleric, the other skills I want (concentration and heal) are native to cleric but not fighter. This means that I get the most value out of taking UMD during fighter levels, so all UMD taken on this build is taken on fighter levels. That's also why I stagger it late to finish all 11 ranks by 19 instead of 20. All so that I can take as many native ranks as possible, and as few cross-class ranks as possible.

In terms of Heal, it looks like I could move one of those early ranks in balance over to heal to reach 23, but that wouldn't help. As written, Heal is maxed at level 15, with 18 ranks spent: 2 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 18. That means if I move the level 4 rank in balance over to heal, at level 15 I can only take 2 ranks in heal instead of 3. Also note that heal is a native skill at level 15 (cleric), which means I'd end up with the same ranks in heal but it would have cost one more point to get it.

Heal is essentially only taken during cleric levels, trying to get as close as possible to maxed. Because UMD is maxed at level 17, that means I can't do UMD on level 18 so those "extra" two points go to heal. In fact, the skills on level 17 and 18 can be switched with each other without changing anything else in the table. The reason went the way I did was because 1 point of UMD is way more valuable than 1 point of heal. Since I have a choice which I'd rather get at 17, getting the other at 18, I choose to take the UMD at 17 and heal at 18.

While I don't particularly care about those two early ranks in balance, I was unable to find a way to fully max out all three of concentration, heal and umd. I did get pretty close, though, and of those three skills, heal is by far the best one to let lag behind. For those "lost" four points spent on balance at levels 2 and 4, my main choices were jump and balance. The 4 ranks in jump are very nice early on, but on a strength build you rapidly no longer need jump. Also note that if I spent a rank in jump at level 2, I'd be left with one final rank to spend and nothing to spend it on that isn't a half rank. In the end, while not much, 2 balance seemed more useful than an extra 4 jump. (My guy on epic levels has a standing jump in the high 50s, I think.)

[MacRighteous]

Yeah - I guess I should have been more clear that my confusion started with MCing where I end up with weird totals. Part of this was because now I can see I was putting too much stock in Jump, Balance and Heal for my Pally splashes and ignoring UMD. Also I was trying to spread my points too evenly at every level and not utilizing the "catch up" trick nor did cross class skill points (0.5 of a rank) factor into my allocation... I'm working out a build for a 2nd life 15 Pally/4 Fighter/1 Wizard and the last part to work out is the skill allocation and since I have been ignoring convention and trying my hand at a totally unique build of my own design - I didn't want to punt on the skills...

Spanks

[EllisDee37]

When all is said and done, the key limiter in setting up skills is the skill cap of level+3 for native skills, half that for cross-class. This concept is why I couldn't max heal on my kensei warpriest, as explained here:

In terms of Heal, it looks like I could move one of those early ranks in balance over to heal to reach 23, but that wouldn't help. As written, Heal is maxed at level 15, with 18 ranks spent: 2 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 18. That means if I move the level 4 rank in balance over to heal, at level 15 I can only take 2 ranks in heal instead of 3.

[MacRighteous]

OK - I think I got the concept... Boy, I tell you - due to the tomes on INT from my previous life and needing high INT on this build it posed quite a challenge to work out as my first optimizing attempt. Here is what I came up with.
Goals:
To have Heal maxed (more or less) at levels 8, 10, 12 and 15.
To have Concentration and UMD maxed and raising steadily as I level.
To have a decent Jump and Balance score

Max Pts	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23
Class	F	F	F	F	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	P	W
Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	Totals
Heal	2*	.	.	.	.	3	.	3	.	3	.	.	.	.	4	.	3	.	2	.	22
Concent	1*	.	.	.	2	1	1	2	1	1	2	1	1	2	1	1	2	1	1	1	23
UMD	2*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	11
Balance	2*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	.	.	1*	.	1*	.	1*	11
Jump	.	3	2	2	.	1*	.	.	.	1*	.	2*	.	1*	.	.	.	.	1*	.	13
Tumble	1*	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	1
(Dump)	.	1.5*	.	2*	.	.	0.5*	0.5*	0.5*	.	.	0.5	0.5*	1*	0.5*	0.5*	0.5*	0.5*	0.5*	0.5*	9
Points	16	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	6

I couldn't make it work without "dumping" skill points into another skill - Since I solo I don't really need Intimidation (except for maybe the baby sitting quest) SO I'm not sure where to put these extra points? Possibly Search or Spot?

Anyway - can anyone see a better way to go?

[EllisDee37]

What's the thinking behind taking the wizard level at 20?

I might be tempted to take wizard at 1:

• Expeditious Retreat right out of the gate
• Nightshield for those nasty magic missile quests during heroics (eg: Proof is in the Poison, VON4)
• Ability to pseudo-UMD invisibility scrolls at level 2 (85% chance with 1 wizard level, I think?)
• Echoes of power to feed cure spells in a pinch

I'm also rather fond of getting six pally levels by level 7 for ghost touch.

Not to say either of these are better than your level splits. What's the leveling concept?

In terms of your skills on the build as listed, looks good. You appear to have a solid grasp on how to go about it compared to when you posted the OP. For the dump skill, I'd probably target a skill used for quest checks. Namely bluff, diplomacy or intimidate. Since intimidate is a class skill for 19 of your levels, I'd probably do intimidate. Again, since you'll already max the skills you want, may as well give yourself the ability to perform social skill checks in quests like Partycrashers and Crucible.

I might do a little digging to figure out which would be the least likely to be covered by other people, (my guess is diplomacy), and whether or not you can shuffle ranks around to max out a non-fighter skill. If not, probably just stick with intimidate.

EDIT: I count 22 ranks spent in concentration, not 23. And 20 ranks in Heal, not 22. I may be reading the table wrong...

[MacRighteous]

I needed an extra Feat at level 20 - My build concept is a 2nd life Paladin making the most out of the tomes I managed to find in my first life. I ended up with a +3 tome on STR, CON, INT and CHR, plus a +1 on WIS. So my thought was to dump DEX and WIS and make up for it by having a high CHR and INT to use the FoP and Insightful Reflex feats to boost my Will and Reflex saves. I went Sword and Board with B.Swords and the THF line for Glancing Blows - plus I just cant get rid of the Human Dragonmark - its just too handy for my play style. So as you can see I needed a lot of feats. I agonized about putting off some of the early Pally goodies for 4 levels - but I usually run with Crafted gear and what I can find until level 10 so Ghost touch wont be a problem. Here is a rough draft
of my build:

STR 21
Dex 8
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 9
CHR 18

Heroic	Class	Feat	Class Feat	Bonus Feat	Ability	(Feat) Spell Ability...	Skill:
Level 1	F	FoP	THF	DM		(PPL)	Heal
Level 2	F		PA				Concentration
Level 3	F	IR					UMD
Level 4	F		BS		ST		Balance / extra pts in Jump
Level 5	P		Diety (FoSH)
Level 6	P	SM				(LoH)
Level 7	P
Level 8	P				ST	CLW
Level 9	P	IC:S
Level 10	P					(US)
Level 11	P					BS
Level 12	P	ITHF			ST
Level 13	P					ES
Level 14	P
Level 15	P	EH				CMW
Level 16	P				ST
Level 17	P
Level 18	P	ISM				HS
Level 19	P					Z
Level 20	W		QK		ST
Epic		Heroic Feat	Epic Feat	Destiny Feat	Ability		Epic Destiny
Level 21	X 1	GTHF				(EPL)	Sphere: Divine
Level 22	2						Divine Cursader
Level 23	3						(Leveling in: Primal)
Level 24	X 6		OC		ST
Level 25	5						Twists of Fate
Level 26	EDF 6			PTHF			Tier: 2: Soundburst
Level 27	X 7		BS				Tier: 2: Endless Smite
Level 28	EDF 8			PTWF	ST		Tier: 3: Endless LoH

My leveling plan is to go THF for the first 6 levels or so and then go S&B from 6 on and to be able to switch between the 2 depending on if I needed more DPS or more defenses.

EDIT: No, you're not reading it wrong - I goofed - still a little tweaking to do yet

[MacRighteous]

Maybe this is better?

Max Points

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

Class

F

F

F

F

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

P

W

Level

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

Totals

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

Concent

…

…

…

…

3

1

2

1

1

1

2

1

1

2

1

1

3

1

1

1

23

Heal

…

…

…

…

3

3

…

3

…

3

…

…

…

…

4

…

3

…

2

1*

22

UMD

2*

…

1*

…

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

11

Balance

2*

…

1*

…

…

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

1*

…

1*

…

1*

1*

…

11

Jump

…

3

2

2

…

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

1*

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

11

Intimidation

2*

0.5*

…

1*

…

…

…

…

…

…

1.5*

0.5*

…

0.5*

0.5*

…

0.5*

0.5*

0.5*

8

Tumble

2*

1*

…

1*

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

4

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

_

Points

16

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

6

[EllisDee37]

My understanding of the THF feats is that while they will help your glancing blows with a bastard sword, you won't get the melee power unless you drop the shield and pick up a two-handed weapon proper.

[MacRighteous]

My understanding of the THF feats is that while they will help your glancing blows with a bastard sword, you won't get the melee power unless you drop the shield and pick up a two-handed weapon proper.

Which I still wouldn't get if I dropped the THF line and just stayed S&B, so keeping the THF line is a net gain in that it does provide a little extra omph on glancing blows (while using B.Swords) and it allows me the versatility of dropping the shield and going two handed when I want less defense and more DPS. There is some content that isn't particularly hard, even with Champions - just long. So I can speed things up by dropping the S&B and zerg through with a TH weapon, and there is other content where I have to go slow and steady, especially with Champions, so grabbing a board and a sword and a half will give me the defenses I need, plus descent DPS.
I switch up my enhancements all the time, so I can optimize which play style I choose by switching between KotC+SD and Vanguard+KotC - or at least that's my theory... how this works in practice remains to be seen...

My only misgiving, I guess - is not having Evasion when I THF. I thought long and hard about 4 level Monk instead of Fighter - but this steps away from my idea of a Paladin... to me, the quintessential Paladin is a heavily armored Knight who wields a Greatsword to deal out punishment and dons a Kite Shield and B.Sword (or Long Sword) while defending his keep.

Its a flavor build that caters to my play style and since I solo and don't need to keep up with the Jones... I think it will be fine.
plus I still have a +20 Heart on this toon, so if it goes south... well... there are options.

EDIT: BTW - Seems I still have some Skill point optimizing to go - the last attempt I posted didn't work out in the Planner as I counted my intimidates as cross class skills - doh!

[EllisDee37]

Yeah, heavy armor all the way. Evasion should be a non-issue for the most part. Traps might still be annoying, but they can pretty much all be twitched through with enough mario skills.

[Theolin]

Which I still wouldn't get if I dropped the THF line and just stayed S&B, so keeping the THF line is a net gain in that it does provide a little extra omph on glancing blows (while using B.Swords) and it allows me the versatility of dropping the shield and going two handed when I want less defense and more DPS. There is some content that isn't particularly hard, even with Champions - just long. So I can speed things up by dropping the S&B and zerg through with a TH weapon, and there is other content where I have to go slow and steady, especially with Champions, so grabbing a board and a sword and a half will give me the defenses I need, plus descent DPS.
I switch up my enhancements all the time, so I can optimize which play style I choose by switching between KotC+SD and Vanguard+KotC - or at least that's my theory... how this works in practice remains to be seen...

My only misgiving, I guess - is not having Evasion when I THF. I thought long and hard about 4 level Monk instead of Fighter - but this steps away from my idea of a Paladin... to me, the quintessential Paladin is a heavily armored Knight who wields a Greatsword to deal out punishment and dons a Kite Shield and B.Sword (or Long Sword) while defending his keep.

Its a flavor build that caters to my play style and since I solo and don't need to keep up with the Jones... I think it will be fine.
plus I still have a +20 Heart on this toon, so if it goes south... well... there are options.

EDIT: BTW - Seems I still have some Skill point optimizing to go - the last attempt I posted didn't work out in the Planner as I counted my intimidates as cross class skills - doh!

You don't need evasion if you have a large enough MRR which you should be able to get
I have 248 PRR, 135 MRR so evasion is not needed heck I don't even worry about making a reflex save
I use a bSword with S&B & THF the glancing blows are nice & you get the melee power from S&B & attack speed from one of the paly trees
I run this build probably a similar idea to what you are doing

[MacRighteous]

I have a CHR based PDK EK 15/5 Paladin w/SWF that is similar to your build in that I picked up all the Cleaves I could as the EK DPS is just kind of meh + being a CHR build it will never get as much omph as a STR build, thanks to Divine Might - but it is fun - so win/win.

With a STR build S&B/THF I didn't see the point in picking up the Heroic Cleave Feats as the Cleaves in the KotC are better and share a cool down - do you think they are necessary on your build? Or are you just going for flavor? In any event, I like your build and I hope mine works as well as you reported.

I've done a test build of my build above with a PDK and ran it for a level through the big fights in DD and Storm Horns and it seems to perform well, even though it has just the starter gear (which isn't bad) and isn't exactly the same build - but close enough to get a feel and I didn't even notice not having evasion. In fact I'm second guessing the inclusion of Insightful Reflexes now... I might drop that and make room for Improved Shield Bash... or Extend?

[EllisDee37]

Insightful might still be worth it for traps. Go slice and dice your test guy on some blade traps and see what you think. Maybe in Monastery?