Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Eladrin]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats grants a +20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +2.5%/+5.0%/+7.5%/+10% insight bonus to double strike chance instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest I and II now grant a +10%/+20% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed. Ranger Tempest III now grants a +5% double strike chance while wielding two weapons.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest I and II now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 100% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing and a 2.5 to 7.5% chance to double strike (depending on whether they are fighting unarmed or with a pair of kamas), while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 80% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks, and a 10% double strike chance.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread ( http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2374594&postcount=5) - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk 100% 70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed) 110% 60%
14 Pal/6 Rng 110% 65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk 100% 90%


---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF.

Edit 2:
Updated information in the main post to reflect the most recent changes.

[GoldyGopher]

I'm not sure I am reading this right, but in general what I am seeing is you are going to Nerf TWF by reducing the output of the offhand while increasing the procs in the mainhand?

Don't get me wrong, its not like I would totally disagree with what you are doing, but ...

[le_goat]

How about you nerf the greensteel and not the monks.

[Mockduck]

Interesting! If this largely solves DPS lag I know I'd be willing to accept significant changes to the mechanics of TWF. I'll be very interested in testing this. Say, on Lammania. In the new Update 5 quests. hint hint... :)

[Gercho]

Let me see if i understand correctly, before a paladin (or fighter) with full twf line would have 100% of off hand attacks and now 55%? so, you are nerfing off hand attacks 45% for the paladin (or fighter)
Besides, the 10% double attack now will only affect the main hand, before a 10% attack speed increased main hand and off hand attack speed... i m ok with consolidating check for lag controlling, but why the nerf?

Full twf should have 100% off hand attacks, and double attack chance should procs for main hand and off hand (depending on how many twf feats the char has, so for a full twf char it will proc for both attacks 100%)

Keep ranger tempest bonus a 10% to double attack as paladin zeal and fighter capstone, if you want you can give extra 5% for tempest II and III...

[Sirea]

I don't know if I like the part about the attack speed bonus being taken away from Tempests and especially Monks.

I really feel like I'd have to actually test it to see the true impact, though.

[Daehawk]

It seems interesting and I would be interested to see how all this plays out. With you revealing this pretty heavy change before the weekend I'm going to assume that you want to hear the voices over the weekend to decide on if it will hit Lam when U5 hits Lam next week?

One question though about the Double Strike. So you're saying that basically with that for every strike we make with our Main Hand there would be a chance to make a second strike with the main hand as well?

Double strike will be a bonus given to Paladin Zeal, Figher Capstone, and Jorgundal’s Collar(possibly and other items that give Melee attack speed?)

[Eladrin]

I'm not sure I am reading this right, but in general what I am seeing is you are going to Nerf TWF by reducing the output of the offhand while increasing the procs in the mainhand?
It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.


How about you nerf the greensteel and not the monks.
I am actively seeking to avoid making broad changes to existing treasure systems.

[Irinis]

Wow, I love the double strike thing, will be especially cool for Warchanter. *squeee*

Interesting thoughts on offhand attacks, however tempest and wind stance should still have faster attacks somehow. Just more offhand attacks in the chain doesn't seem quite right for the concept of a whirling fast class enhancement. I'm sure you'll be testing how much efficiency you get from the reduced computing requirements, but please don't take away the speediness of the attacks! The reduction should already help a lot.

Plus, some people get DPS lag and others don't, so part of it may be the way the combat log is handled going from the server to the client. If the information was split before being sent to the client (I read somewhere that ALL combat info gets sent out then is processed on the client side for what to display in the log) that may also reduce the problem significantly.

[Zenako]

Interesting approach, which accomplishes a number of goals at once. Reducing the shear number of calcs to process when fighting, but at the same time tweaking the fighting styles to become closer to each other in the good ole dps metric that drives many build decisions.

The downside from a PR standpoint is that most players will probably not really get the benefit (since the lag was most pronounced in top end raids with top end builds and gear all getting in the same group and in sync) but will get a reduction.

From a deisgn standpoint it seems like a prudent choice. (Be it known I have characters of all styles, including many TWF'er so it will affect me.) I also have a few classic S&B tank types as well. While details of other factors or proposed changes would be nice but probably out of scope, at least some broad indicators of other things being worked or looked at would help put it into context.

Thanks for asking for feedback.... I am sure you will get some.:eek:

[moorewr]

Interesting! If this largely solves DPS lag I know I'd be willing to accept significant changes to the mechanics of TWF. I'll be very interested in testing this. Say, on Lammania. In the new Update 5 quests. hint hint... :)

One of the things I see in Eladrin's post is that they are focused on keeping the result (in terms of off-hands procs) in the correct flavor for D&D. If this comes close to that goal the technical methods used to get there are not important to us players.

Devil, meet details, but still, I certainly support where they are trying to take this.

[Omega2K]

I like the part about cutting the physical contact check in half but the rest of it I do not agree with... I don't even play many two-weapon fighting characters but you will upset a good portion of your player base by gimping them in your proposed manner. What I would recommend is reducing the number of dice rolls and references to your random number generator table. In raid situations where lag is prevalent, you should instead duplicate previous rolls for additional swings. The number of times you duplicate it will increase performance (decrease lag). Example:

First swing:

physical contact check, to hit roll: 15, 1d10 damage roll: 6, 1d6 pure good roll: 3, 1d6 acid roll: 5, and so on

The outcomes of the above rolls are applied to your next two, three, four, etc. weapon swings producing the same to hit and damage output

New rolls are performed after the last duplication for the next sequence of to hit and damage results

I feel that this would be a better solution as it can quickly cut the number of rolls in half, down to a third, down to a fourth, etc. while leaving the rest of the game basically untouched.

Try it out and see what the Devs think.

[Eladrin]

It seems interesting and I would be interested to see how all this plays out. With you revealing this pretty heavy change before the weekend I'm going to assume that you want to hear the voices over the weekend to decide on if it will hit Lam when U5 hits Lam next week?
I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.


One question though about the Double Strike. So you're saying that basically with that for every strike we make with our Main Hand there would be a chance to make a second strike with the main hand as well?
Correct.

[MrkGrismer]

I like it although it would seem to me that Tempest Ranger should have 100%/100%, if it is to keep its place as the example of 'best/perfect twf'.

I actually got the DPS lag thing one night in Devil's Assault (normal, believe it or not), and suffered Lag-death as a result.

[Coldin]

Eh....I really have reservations about this. I do like the efforts made to reduce DPS lag though. Just anything with random chance tends to be more against me than for me. How it is currently, you get that guaranteed attack roll with an off-hand.

I'm wondering why TWF grants a larger bonus than ITWF and GTWF. To me those should be more equal.

Monk air stance is interesting. Right now it gives a bonus to attack speed, but this change seeks to make air stance more of a TWF only doesn't it? Not that there's probably many monks that are using air stance and only single wielding kamas or using quarterstaves.

I suppose what I really don't like is overall attack speed being decreased. Attacking slowly is just...more boring. I like being a whirling blur as a monk in air stance with haste.

A couple questions for you Eladrin. You mention Zeal adding 10% chance for an extra hit with the main hand. Would this extra hit also deal smite damage (if that hit was a smite). Would it roll a separate d20 to determine if it's a hit?

And just to make sure about something else. These off-hand chances. When they do proc, do they automatically hit then?

[maddmatt70]

Why do rangers get such a higher offhand attack and fighters and paladins do not? That is not the way DDO works currently. It would probably be a good idea to post the current numbers next to the proposed numbers so people got a better visualization of the changes.

[rest]

Helping DPS lag by reducing the amount of DPS?

That sucks.

[Hutoth]

If you're also trying to equalise the playing field re TWF (which is secondary to fixing DPS lag), I'd prefer a boost to other styles, rather than a nerf on TWF.

[Vhlad]

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc an off hand attack as well?

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc another main hand attack?

[Gercho]

So, translating the actual attacks to the new system, you have now

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 110% 110%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) dont really know
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 110%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 110%
20 [Other] 100% 100%
[/QUOTE]

And you will have in the future with your proposed changes

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%


So you are effectively nerfing all the twf, and paladins and fighters get the biggest hits... (well, and tempest 1 too)
You really nerf paladins even more cause for paladins smites and sacrifices allways went twice, now they will got half the time...

[sirgog]

Generally sounds good.

Sounds like a pretty small change overall - currently full twitch THF hasted 20 BAB toons get 140 attacks in a minute, whereas TWF get 220. Post changes, I assume the TWF gets 140 * (100% + 55%) = 231 (if I read it all correctly).

I'm for this change being seriously tested.

[Ganak]

Outstanding post for so many reasons.

I support this change.

[tihocan]

So why would anyone bother with TWF anymore? Are we getting free hearts of wood and large ingredients (or Epic SoS since you mention it ;)) to respec and re-equip our characters?

To answer my first question I guess Rangers (since they get the feats for free), Monks (since you can't go THF with handwraps) and Rogues (since sneak attack on both hands is quite useful) may still prefer TWF. For other classes it seems like the investment is not worth it if you end up with similar DPS against single targets (assuming the THF is not twitching), less DPS against multiple targets, less to-hit, and one less feat if you are a Khopesh user (in addition to typically lower Str as well due to the heavier Dex investment).

[Eladrin]

Eh....I really have reservations about this. I do like the efforts made to reduce DPS lag though. Just anything with random chance tends to be more against me than for me. How it is currently, you get that guaranteed attack roll with an off-hand.
It's one of the reasons we're talking about this now. There are major impacts to it.


I'm wondering why TWF grants a larger bonus than ITWF and GTWF. To me those should be more equal.
When it hits Lamannia, we'll be watching things. I can probably be convinced to experiment with making TWF, ITWF, and GTWF all grant a 15% bonus if things go well.


Monk air stance is interesting. Right now it gives a bonus to attack speed, but this change seeks to make air stance more of a TWF only doesn't it? Not that there's probably many monks that are using air stance and only single wielding kamas or using quarterstaves.
It does. Staff using monks may be better suited in Sun stance with these changes, if they're hasted. (Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)


A couple questions for you Eladrin. You mention Zeal adding 10% chance for an extra hit with the main hand. Would this extra hit also deal smite damage (if that hit was a smite). Would it roll a separate d20 to determine if it's a hit?
It should still be treated as a smite. It has to roll to hit separately from the original attack.


And just to make sure about something else. These off-hand chances. When they do proc, do they automatically hit then?
All attack hooks have their own unique to-hit and damage rolls.

[Raider88]

It sounds like an interesting way to go after the dps-lag problem. I think it might be a good step to take, not only because it might help with the lag, but because at the moment two-weapon fighting is such a dominant style of play, and I think it will be nice to close the gap some between TWF and THF. Send it to Lam!

[Gratch]

I'm fine with the on-hit physics detection mechanism and all the feats/pre's piling into the offhand ratio.

That said, I think the ratio should always be scaled so that TWF for it's higher costs is still the higher DPS vs. a single target whereas THF shines against multiples. To bring TWF to the same DPS as THF only after you've plied on all extra costs seems like an insane shift to the game. THF extra feats are there for increasing it's damage vs. mulitiple opponents... but you can get most of it's advantage with no feat/class expenditure (except for the STR is king mantra).

Should we all be L20 paly (dr/good) or L20 barb (high str) SoS users from now on?

The tempest change is pretty radical too... it takes an insanely feat heavy first tier PRE and redistributes that PRE's advantage across the cheaper tiers (STWF not withstanding in tier 3). I'd prefer at least a 15%/20%/30% for all the ranger 6's out there to not hate you. A 20/30/40 might be better though if we're bumping ratios.

Now to backwack on rangers. They don't even have to hit the dex req for GTWF. Why do they get all the ratio. Toss the fighters a bone with a version of STWF ratio bump. *grin*

[Impaqt]

Why do rangers get such a higher offhand attack and fighters and paladins do not? That is not the way DDO works currently. It would probably be a good idea to post the current numbers next to the proposed numbers so people got a better visualization of the changes.

Isnt it?
My Ranger gets 5 Ofhand attacks right now compared to 4 on my other TWFers.

[Battlehawke]

Eladrin,

It looks like you are definately onto something. A lot of people will not be happy, and you may lose some people with some long time builds that are insanely built and do tremendous damage, like what happened with the WOP nerf. I lost a few friends, who just didnt' enjoy playing anymore, because they had build their toons around stat damage. However, I LOVE THF, and think that THF should do more damage than TWF, and like the idea.... and if it reduces DPS lag in the process.... It could keep a lot of people playing that are getting VERY frustrated!

Also, while you're at it, something related happened in a TOD group last night that I picked up. The leader instructed us all to TURN off a ton of stuff in our options panel and in our Social Panel to reduce lag as well as made us take "rest's" at several stages during the beating down of the bosses to reduce lag. It worked very well and was quite intelligent. Most say beat it down, before lag gets us.... He said, stop beating on it, so that lag won't happen!!!

Battlehawke

[Naolas]

This feels like Dungeon Alert all over again.

Why is it that dps lag seems to be worse on some days than others? Could it be that server load is as much an issue as is the number of attacks?

Maybe invest in hardware rather than butcher the combat system?

At the very least address one issue at a time. Do not couple performance adjustments with balancing TWF.

[Zenako]

What some of us need to do is to start cranking some number. Main hand attacks do more damage per hit (due to STR bonuses effects) than the off hand attacks, so it is not a simple number of attacks swapout, but a TOTAL expected damage that needs to be examined.

Unlike in previous times, IF a change like this goes into place, and you are unhappy with how it affects your particular build (but keep in mind it affects all of those same builds), there are Reincarnation methods available to "fix thing" as a potential remediation.

Right now, there is really almost a "one true way" mindset in place, which is counter to the spirit of the source material. D&D was always predicated on their being many ways to build a good character.

[Cyr]

Wow this is a game changer. If this is done in a manner that reduces dps this could lead to people leaving in droves. Right now just glancing at the proposed implementation IT DOES REDUCE DPS.

If the goal here is to reduce lag by eliminating the high resource use physics detection check on off hand swings then why are the numbers scewed to reduce TWF dps? No one would care if the mechanics of how their dps was slightly altered as long as they were not getting nerfed, but this looks like one giant nerf packaged as a way to reduce lag. If it's really about the lag MAKE THE DPS OUTPUT UNCHANGED and just get rid of the extra physics check. Note that double hits are inferior to alacricity boosts also due to over kill on a single target and proc rate on single target for instant kills being more effective if more targets are hit during a set period of time.

Some quick math to show that this proposed change is a nerf...

Fighter Capstone now grants a +10% attack speed increase leading to a +10% dps increase roughly. With this new change the +10% double hit with main hand only makes dps equal to before for those using one weapon. TWF toons lose the 10% extra on their off hand.

I will leave the more in depth math to those whom are not at work right now.

All in all I must say for shame for packaging a major nerf with a lag reducing effort.

Oh and how do you expect to get feedback, act on that feedback, and re-test with feedback before update 5 goes live on this far reaching of a change?

[TFPAQ]

That would mean we get the "second chance" at full strength per PA, instead of the 1/2 we would see off-hand?

[Schmoe]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to piggyback an off-hand attack physics check with the main-hand check. What I don't understand, is why change the "proc" for the off-hand attacks? Right now, it's pretty much a static chance, dependent on what step in the cycle you're on. So 1st main hand is accompanied by an off-hand with 100% chance. Without ITWF, all other attacks in the cycle have a 0% chance. It seems like you're adding an additional check on each main-hand attack that will actually worsen performance.

Also, a Tempest III gets 4 off-hand attacks for every 4 main-hand attacks. A non-tempest with GTWF gets 3 off-hands for every 4 main-hands. This proposal changes it so that a Tempest III will only get about 3 off-hands for every 4 main-hands, and a non-tempest with GTWF can only get 2 off-hands for every 4 main-hands. That's a serious reduction in DPS, about a 12-15% reduction for TWF characters. Not only does the nerf not appear necessary (unless I'm misunderstanding), I'm not sure it's needed.

[Eladrin]

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc an off hand attack as well?

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc another main hand attack?
No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness. ;)


I guess Rangers (since they get the feats for free), Monks (since you can't go THF with handwraps) and Rogues (since sneak attack on both hands is quite useful) may still prefer TWF.
Many Paladins are likely to want to TWF as well. Anyone that has bonus "on-hit" effects, whether it be sneak attack or actual effects.

[Vanshilar]

One question I have is why change the way combat is done (to having chance of double strike main attack, and having offhand be a chance to proc) rather than just use the piggyback method on the existing system. After, in the existing system, all swings will have a main attack (although it seems like sometimes the offhand attack occurs first). It seems like there's actually two changes going on:

1) Piggyback the physics detection check of your offhand attack with your main attack to decrease the number of checks needed (and thus speed up the process)
2) Change main attack to have chance of double strike, and offhand attack to be chance of proc rather than based on attack animation.

I'm not quite certain as to why the two have to be done together (although it may simply be due to replacing one chunk of code with another, i.e. you guys have been working on revamping the code in modules and both are slated for the next one). While piggybacking may decrease the lag by decreasing the number of checks needed, I'm not sure how changing the attack mechanics to be probability-based will decrease the lag, other than that it seems like there's a decrease in the overall amount of attacks.

Speaking of which, if the average number of attacks decrease, this also implies that the damage output of characters will also decrease. I don't know if this means that monster HP or other stats will be readjusted, or if this will in effect mean that dungeons will be harder once this goes in

[Vhlad]

It does. Staff using monks may be better suited in Sun stance with these changes, if they're hasted. (Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)


You may want to clarify that in the OP. i.e. you write "Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of a bonus to attack speed."

Change to: instead of an insight bonus to attack speed (enhancement bonus remains).


No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness. ;)
one in a million chance of massive lag spike & party wipe! :p

[Lorien_the_First_One]

20 [Other] 100% 55%


Looking at "other" so we get away from specialized builds... My instinct says a fully spec'd TWF rogue should get twice the strikes per minute of S&B build... This feels kind of nerfy.

Also if you are taking out the speed capstones for TWF are you changing those similar enhancements to THF or just leaving them the same, at least for now? (ie - if my L20 ftr picks up a Greataxe or goes S&B does he still get the 10% but if he picks up two weapons he does not?)

[Schmoe]

Furthermore, it looks like you're attempting to reduce the overall number of attack checks by changing speed bonuses to additional proc checks. Fair enough. But changing class speed boosts to off-hand proc checks doesn't follow this philosophy and is a further nerf. The speed boosts should at the very least be main-hand proc checks.

[DANTEIL]

Outstanding post for so many reasons.

Agreed.

I don't play melee (yet) but I have experienced the DPS lag, and I have also seen a lot of complaints/concerns here on the forums that the developers aren't doing anything to a) fix the lag problem and b) solicit feedback from players about changes before things go live. So, regardless of what one thinks about the actual details of these proposed changes (and I'll be interested to see what the more knowledgeable players have to say about this), here we have a clear example of a heads-up about a possible change along with an explicit call for feedback about this (seriously -- it's on the main newsfeed plus Eladrin's myDDO plus the forums -- they really want the feedback!). This has to be a good thing.

[Khurse]

First impression (as mentioned) is that wrap using monks are getting smacked.
While I recognize that the whole Monks already need to farm for Devouts (rare drop) or complete a level 20 raid
9(ish) time before they can break DR on a 17th level raid is an entirely different discussion, it does tie into damage.

I can accept the idea if it actually does reduce lag, and bringing TWF and THF closer together seems like a worthwhile idea. It's just that it looks like the Tempest builds again are a little more equal than others, and that this will badly nerf monks, who's DPS is built on how fast they attack with wraps.

[totmacher]

it seems like 20 ftr kensai or any kensai based build is getting hit really hard from his. i mean you've given tempest 3 a third better proc rate than any kensai 3 at the top tier...

[xTethx]

So a year ago you guys introduce Dungeon Alert to get rid of lag, that evidentally didnt work at all. What makes you think this change is gonna fix lag? Its ok if you just come out and say lag will never get fixed, atleast you'll be right about one thing.

[Razcar]

Changed my mind ;)

[tihocan]

Many Paladins are likely to want to TWF as well. Anyone that has bonus "on-hit" effects, whether it be sneak attack or actual effects.
I thought most "on-hit" effects could also proc on glancing blows, but not sneak attack. But I'm unsure which ones can and which cannot exactly, I haven't done any test on that. Assuming they can, it seems overall THF is still competitive with TWF for "on-hit" effects thanks to being able to hit multiple targets at the same time.

[Gercho]

No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness. ;)


Many Paladins are likely to want to TWF as well. Anyone that has bonus "on-hit" effects, whether it be sneak attack or actual effects.

First of all, i find really bad that you are mixing a lag fix with a rebalancing at the same time, if you want only to fix lag, dont rebalance, and after the lag is fixed, you can think about rebalancing... now a lot of people will support the idea, cause it doesnt affects their chars and supposedly will help with lag.

This is an effective nerf of as much as 25% of dps for some classes, the paladins are the most nerfed of all... Paladins twf are close to top dps only against evil outsiders, now you nerf them 25% against all creatures...

[Daehawk]

I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.


Correct.

Hehe alright.

One more thing, right now a paladin with GTWF can get a Double Smite one with each hand. You answered for Coldin that the double strikes for Main hand can produce a Smite, All off hand procs if it was based off a smite attack should produce a smite as well correct? So a TWF Paladin in U5 could theoretically get 3 Smites from 1 smite. 1 for MH, 1 for Double Strike, and 1 for Off-hand Strike?

Seems interesing if it is going to work that way. Also will be interesting for those THF Epic SoS paladins that get Double Strike Exalted Smites with the SoS.

[yams]

I think cutting the physics checks in half is a novel solution to reducing lag, but the proposed implementation will upset players. I don't feel that it's entirely fair to those who have spent many many hours planning, leveling, and gearing up their characters to cut their DPS so drastically.

What's wrong with having the offhand attack proc off of every main hand attack?

Will the double-strike chance be implemented for monsters as well? Bosses?

[Eladrin]

You may want to clarify that in the OP. i.e. you write "Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of a bonus to attack speed."

Change to: instead of an insight bonus to attack speed (enhancement bonus remains).
Done.


Also if you are taking out the speed capstones for TWF are you changing those similar enhancements to THF or just leaving them the same, at least for now? (ie - if my L20 ftr picks up a Greataxe or goes S&B does he still get the 10% but if he picks up two weapons he does not?)
Fighter Alacrity is a simple "You have a +10% bonus to double strike" under this proposal. You'll have a 10% chance to double attack with your greatsword, or your main hand weapon when fighting S&B or TWF.

[tihocan]

Sounds like a pretty small change overall - currently full twitch THF hasted 20 BAB toons get 140 attacks in a minute, whereas TWF get 220. Post changes, I assume the TWF gets 140 * (100% + 55%) = 231 (if I read it all correctly).
I'm not sure what's your reasoning here, but if TWF currently gets 220, then it means 110 swings, so post change it would be 110 * 155% = 170.5.

[Coldin]

It's one of the reasons we're talking about this now. There are major impacts to it.

I hope you can get this out to Lamannia soon then



When it hits Lamannia, we'll be watching things. I can probably be convinced to experiment with making TWF, ITWF, and GTWF all grant a 15% bonus if things go well.


I would prefer that. Especially if all off-hand attacks still have to roll their own attack rolls.



It does. Staff using monks may be better suited in Sun stance with these changes, if they're hasted. (Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)

Ok. So windstance will still grant the enhancement bonus (which does not stack with haste), just not the insight bonus? I guess I can accept that.



It should still be treated as a smite. It has to roll to hit separately from the original attack.

Ok, that's pretty cool. I assume the same would be for things like Trip, Divine Sacrifice, and the Monk elemental strikes?



All attack hooks have their own unique to-hit and damage rolls.

*nod* Then I would like to see these off-hand procs getting closer to 100% when a character has GTWF and any other bonuses that would help.

[Dwarfo]

i don't really like this idea about reducing attack speeds..
i like seeing my lvl 15 tempest attacking with his whirling blades much faster than my lvl 3 fighter and lvl 4 sorc...
but it looks like this idea will make lvl 15 attack speeds equivelent to lvl 4 attacks...

just my thinking.

[totmacher]

actually TBH now that I've thought about this a little longer, I'm just not for these rules because they overcomplicate and overengineer what the d20 core rules DDO has cropped up around has proposed to be

this seems to be the trend, especially with things like "glancing blows", "enhancements". i'm not a purist or anything but the farther these rules deviate, the further we will get to any real balance from a DND perspective

[Eladrin]

One more thing, right now a paladin with GTWF can get a Double Smite one with each hand. You answered for Coldin that the double strikes for Main hand can produce a Smite, All off hand procs if it was based off a smite attack should produce a smite as well correct? So a TWF Paladin in U5 could theoretically get 3 Smites from 1 smite. 1 for MH, 1 for Double Strike, and 1 for Off-hand Strike?
That is correct.


So a year ago you guys introduce Dungeon Alert to get rid of lag, that evidentally didnt work at all.
Dungeon Alert was meant to control one particular source of lag. (Specifically, pathing and perception systems of large numbers of monsters in a small area, since that's an n^2 problem.) It was never expected to banish all of it. Likewise, these changes are not expected to banish all forms of lag, but should help some of them.

[Daehawk]

This feels like Dungeon Alert all over again.

Why is it that dps lag seems to be worse on some days than others? Could it be that server load is as much an issue as is the number of attacks?

Maybe invest in hardware rather than butcher the combat system?

At the very least address one issue at a time. Do not couple performance adjustments with balancing TWF.

The dps lag is interesting. Was in a shroud earlier this morning and I didn't experience any lag. We 1 rounded Harry on P4 and didn't see lag till he died as we walked to the chests. At least for me anyway.

That character didn't complete /deathed at the end when Harry died in P5. But there wasn't any lag there either. 2 hours later when I did shroud again with a different ground took 2 rounds to kill Harry and the lag was pretty bad. The first one was around 8am EST second one I think around 10am EST.

[krud]

hmmm.. let's see what it does to my two twf

13rog/4ftr/2pal - main 100%, offhand 55% (currently 100%,100%)

12ftr/6pal/2rog - main 100%, offhand 55% (currently 100%, 100%)

They'd both get the worst possible outcome for the twf line. So much for building a little out of the box. :(

[Gnorbert]

I think the clear split of people supporting and against this change is a good indication you are on the right track.

In my book, anything that makes the different styles of combat more equal is a good thing. I think you'll make some people's heads explode because for their world to make sense there needs to be one clear and absolute best so they can be "teh Uberz".


I look forward to trying this out.

Bravo.

[Eladrin]

Ok, that's pretty cool. I assume the same would be for things like Trip, Divine Sacrifice, and the Monk elemental strikes?
That is correct.

[mourne]

My gut tells me: I Like double Strike. I DO NOT like the %to hit for offhand attacks. The way it reads, you effectively must have ALL TWF feats to be viable. Characters that multiclass often elect to forgo Gtr TWF. I think it will be a serious nerf (read that as rebuild) for a great many of unique characters. One of the wonderful and appealing aspects of this game is the ability to be creative with mixing classes. I think this will not play well at all with many of us who have been around since beta. TWF is a play style that is popular and fun to play. I think many of us will not be very happy when we find out our TR multi-class with a bunch of gear has just been nerfed....I would seriously reconsider this approach.


good luck

[Quikster]

With the addition of FB pre and the introduction of the ESoS I think THF has been brought back up to par with twf. If DPS is reduced for twf with this proposed fix im not for it, unless another way can be introduced to boost twf dps.

TWF requires a hardier investment than thf. With the need to have a high base dex, and the necessity of two weapons, it literally costs more to be a twf then a thf. The only bonus left would be the flexibility of having different stats on two weapons (for example, a monk splash ac ranger having +2 wis on one min II and +4 insight on the other)

With fighter/paly hate seeming broken, its already a large hill to climb to be able to do enough dps and have enough ac, AND enough hitpoints to be able to hold agro in a raid like ToD (a raid where lag is atrocious), by lowering twf dps this makes it that much more difficult for a twf fighter to do this. This is just one example, however with the cost involved going twf I think it should do more single target dps then thf, but less AoE dps then THF.

Obviously these are simply my opinions on the matter, but I think by reducing dps on twf you have taken away the last reason to go twf (similar dps to thf in most cases) and we will see mostly thf running around (this bodes bad for my pure paly who will have more competition for the ESoS ;) )

If the issues is # of calcs/second, what about streamlining the additional weapon procs done by greensteel? Maybe instead of 1dX damage on a tier, it becomes X damage every hit.

How about adding more chances per attack? Instead of a % chance every attack as you propose, what about a guaranteed attack & a % chance (much less then 90% prolly) So, if you have all the twf you get X number of xtra attacks guaranteed, as well as X% chance to proc another attack per offhand, or main hand swing.


Im not a math wiz, and others can do it much more reliably than I can, but it seems we should be able to come up with some combination that gives similar or slightly buffed dps, while reducing lag at the same time.



EDIT:::Big props for attempting this. Many have seen this as a game breaking problem for a long time (the only times i think about canceling for 2 years now is when extremely lagged out). While most understand its not a simple fix, it is still fresh to see someone trying to fix it, instead of "Hey we fixed lag, heres Dungeon Alert"

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

While I understand why this is being looked into, I think this is a bad idea. You are taking an already difficult-to learn system (compared to other MMOs) and then making changes that would make them even more difficult to understand for newbies. At least the current system has some basis in PnP, so someone coming over from PnP would have some understanding. With this, not at all.

Plus, to those of us that are just getting used to builds and how class abilities work together, changes like this are highly unwelcome. This is not a simple nerf, you are proposing making sweeping changes to the whole attack system. Simply put, I do not like this.

I don't mean to tell you what to do, but would it not make sense to take some of the revenue you got from the influx of players and/or the WB buyout, and make some necessary hardware upgrades? I work on PC/Server/Network hardware, and I understand that it is not simple, but I think it would be more simple than changing the way attacks work across the board. Plus, you said it yourself, that there changes would not make that big of an impact with DPS lag, but I would bet an investment in some processor/router/memory upgrades WOULD make an impact, if only slightly. Probably similar to or better than the proposed changes you presented.

Anyway, that's my 2cp...

[Judo]

ill go ahead and say it


DoOOOoooooOMMMMMmmm!

[Tolero]

I hope you can get this out to Lamannia soon then


Well I'll put it this way, I'm in the middle of Lamannia release notes as we speak. We're going to be doing another wipe of characters on Lamannia to allow people to copy over their most recent characters, so I highly recommend hitting lamannia and getting into some combat, since it will have a two fold effect - feeling out the combat, and trying out some of the new guild-related features (will have a dev diary with more information about the guild part of things).

[Coldin]

I will add that in general, I like the dual strike ability, with or without the attack speed changes. I'd like to see combat styles that focus on one weapon not be so far behind TWF in terms of damage.


Well I'll put it this way, I'm in the middle of Lamannia release notes as we speak. We're going to be doing another wipe of characters on Lamannia to allow people to copy over their most recent characters, so I highly recommend hitting lamannia and getting into some combat, since it will have a two fold effect - feeling out the combat, and trying out some of the new guild-related features (will have a dev diary with more information about the guild part of things).

Yay!

[maddmatt70]

sigh your post acknowledges twf is getting a nerf and the best melee will be thf SOS users. In game in my observations it appears that thf SOS were doing just fine in competition with twf already. The second nerf appears to be to fighters. Oh poor Norg, my fighter ,has been in the doghouse for 2 years from mod 4ish to mod 9 it sure has been a fun 9 months after update 1 well I guess its back to the doghouse again.

[Bladedge]

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.



Leave leave Fighter Alacrity capstone the way it is and introduce a second fighter capstone lets say Fighter Double Attack and have the players decide if they they want one or the other.

[Sirea]

So when is this supposed to hit Lamannia? I'm much better at actually trying things out than deciphering technically mumbo-jumbo. I'll base my final judgement on what I see on Lamannia.

EDIT:

Well I'll put it this way, I'm in the middle of Lamannia release notes as we speak. We're going to be doing another wipe of characters on Lamannia to allow people to copy over their most recent characters, so I highly recommend hitting lamannia and getting into some combat, since it will have a two fold effect - feeling out the combat, and trying out some of the new guild-related features (will have a dev diary with more information about the guild part of things).

OK, so maybe a week or two at the most?

[grodon9999]

I'd rather have the lag than these proposed changes. hell no. If you do this please give me Green Steel Deconstruction so I can un-gimp my toons from this horrible nerf. Do you want us to play anything other and THR barbs.

This is ********

[Darth_Sizzle]

The thing I love most about this game is the combat system. I do not think I'm alone in that. What you are proposing gives me a feeling of impending doom.

I don't understand why you are making this so complicated. Why not just make the one physics detection for both attacks and leave everything else the same?

[totmacher]

if you do do this (which it seems like you will), it would be nice to see these numbers reflected in the ddo character sheet, maybe with the glancing blow proc rate. the rules that govern your character shouldn't be hidden

[Daehawk]

That is correct.

That's pretty sexy.

[Dwarfo]

I'd rather have the lag than these proposed changes. hell no.

i agree with him.

[sigtrent]

Fantastic post! Really great detail and honesty.

Well, there are few things here....

1. Reducing lag by dropping the physical detection on the off hand
Great idea! I'm all for it.

2. Changing attack speed bumps to double hit chances.
Also a great idea, I'm all for it.

I can definitely see how this reduces lag and server load, and also makes for a better game feedback system. Great ideas. It also is a great mechanic you can use to target specific characters having issues or needing a boost. Be sure to be clear on stacking... use typed bonus names?

3. Nerfing two weapon fighting by changing the effective dps of the off hand attacks... aka GTWF was +100% swings and now is less than that...
Perhaps biting off more than you want to chew just now...

Yes there DPS difference is there, but it would be better to bring others up (sword and board especially) than to bring TWF guys down. Of course you expect opposition here no doubt. But its not like mobs don't have enough hit points, taking characters down a notch doesn't solve that much disparity. I find things decently balanced in game except for shield users who still have a hard time justifying life in a party unless they are coated in raid gear.

I'll take the nerf and smile, it doesn't bother me much personally but you know that folks invested a lot in these characters so be sure to make them feel like they are still getting value for their build choices.

[Gnorbert]

if you do do this (which it seems like you will), it would be nice to see these numbers reflected in the ddo character sheet, maybe with the glancing blow proc rate. the rules that govern your character shouldn't be hidden

This! absolutely.

[Ukenburger]

And of course this means Zeal, Fighter Alacrity, and Monk Wind Stance (Insight Portion) no longer help ranged attacks, meaning this partly nerfs ranged attacks. Can we expect double-shots (or heck, triple shots for the shuriken in wind stance) at a later date?

[JayDubya]

random thoughts:


if skipping the physics check is the big resource hog, it seems like you could skip that, assume that you're still in range, and then handle the off-hand attack normally
is this going to reduce the overall sequence for TWF to a max of 8 attacks per sequence, or would you have the theorhetical chance of 8 main-hand and 4 off-hand strikes (for a total of 12)?
If you stay with your model, those proc %ages seem low - it seems to me the #s should start at 40% for no-skill, and build up from there
There should be a S&B enhancement to increase double-strike as well, if you want to further improve the balance there

[Daehawk]

Well I'll put it this way, I'm in the middle of Lamannia release notes as we speak. We're going to be doing another wipe of characters on Lamannia to allow people to copy over their most recent characters, so I highly recommend hitting lamannia and getting into some combat, since it will have a two fold effect - feeling out the combat, and trying out some of the new guild-related features (will have a dev diary with more information about the guild part of things).

Very nice. Look forward to copying over my new updated characters over there to test all the changes...hmm if only it couldn't me as premium on Lam =( then I could test my rogue, paladin, wizard, and monk.

[Hutoth]

3. Nerfing two weapon fighting by changing the effective dps of the off hand attacks... aka GTWF was +100% swings and now is less than that...
Perhaps biting off more than you want to chew just now...

Yes there DPS difference is there, but it would be better to bring others up (sword and board especially) than to bring TWF guys down. Of course you expect opposition here no doubt. But its not like mobs don't have enough hit points, taking characters down a notch doesn't solve that much disparity. I find things decently balanced in game except for shield users who still have a hard time justifying life in a party unless they are coated in raid gear.


/signed

[countesscrow]

Eladrin,

I agree that under your new proposed mechanics would definately decrease dps lag. This seems like a good idea.

However, there is already a problem with monks trying to keep up with dps in raids. Currently the main reason a monk even gets invited to ToD raid is for the anti stun buffs for final fight.

I think that your proposed change would make the monk class even more ineffective in combat.

Wouldn't it be better to leave the actual swings per minute at the same place and just piggy back the roll off fo the main hand?

Why the change to damage also?


Chaotics

[Siskel]

So if I understand this correctly THF paladins will possibly see a dps increase with zeal? Not sure how zeal haste increases DPS by 10%, but zeal double strike looks like a straight 10% increase on main hand attacks. Zeal will benefit THF more than TWF. Am I seeing this correctly?

[Schmoe]

Fantastic post! Really great detail and honesty.

Well, there are few things here....

1. Reducing lag by dropping the physical detection on the off hand
Great idea! I'm all for it.

2. Changing attack speed bumps to double hit chances.
Also a great idea, I'm all for it.

I can definitely see how this reduces lag and server load, and also makes for a better game feedback system. Great ideas. It also is a great mechanic you can use to target specific characters having issues or needing a boost. Be sure to be clear on stacking... use typed bonus names?

3. Nerfing two weapon fighting by changing the effective dps of the off hand attacks... aka GTWF was +100% swings and now is less than that...
Perhaps biting off more than you want to chew just now...



This sums up my thoughts perfectly.

[GhostNull]

The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.



Since you're taking away the only other DPS spell for Paladins, can they get the level 3 spell Righteous Fury then? :D

Righteous Fury:
Level: 3
Duration: 1 min/level
Effects: +4 Sacred STR bonus, 5 temp HP/level(Max 50)

[Gercho]

Its funny how the devs answer the positive feedback and ignore the negative feedback.... why would i want to keep playing my twf paladin drow? i cant fix him not even lr'ing, only tr is left for him and i hate tr...

[slimkj]

Firstly, thanks for the comprehensive post and consultation. It's not been my experience of MMOs that this is common so good for you.

I have mixed feelings about this, particularly for monks. Most of the appeal for me, to be honest, of the monk class is the style of fewer HP damage per hit but many hits at high speed. If the speed was lower or bore no discernible difference to any other melee class I'd see far less reason to play one (and theoretically to pay for one, I suppose). Edit: I see I've misunderstood this and the speed will stay the same. Durrr, apologies! Forget I said anything then. It's certainly worth testing.

Edit2: So we would lose the insight bonus, ok. Then my point stands. Why wouldn't I just play any other melee and neck haste pots all day? I love the fact that the T4 wind stance lets me not manage haste clickies or pots any more. It's all about the speed! :)

However, I realise this aesthetic preference on my part is probably not quite as important as everyone being able to enjoy the game lag-free. I will say though that my playing experience tells me DPS lag is not my main problem, it's in certain quests (such as Shadow Crypt) where there is regular, frequent lag which is apparently unrelated to any damage output on mine or anyone else's part which I find much more frustrating.

This would tempt me to get a Lamannia client installed, I think, as I'd want to play this out before I put any more time into xp gathering for current characters, or in fact possible future TR plans for my monk that's close to cap. Along with the +5 Mith BP I got yesterday, it may also spur me to finally recreate my Tempest ranger over here. :)

[TFPAQ]

I'm guessing this thread is gonna grow ^2 pretty quick. I've followed Big E's thought process and tentatively I see some pros/cons on both sides (multi-proc smite, trips, etc, chance for full strength damage on the second main hand strike using PA, etc).

At the same time looking at the table data E provided, it does appear that pretty much everyone's "off-hand" is well ... off. If I have a chance of "only" 55% to make an off-hand attack after spending multiple feats on the TWF line. Aren't I better served counting on the "second chance" main hand proc with S&Bing it?

Sure is going to reduce the amount of ingredients I need to pull for crafting as the off-hand chances don't make me want to waste too many larges on off-hand gear...

Let's leave everything as it is and just use the initial main-hand check for the off-hand attack and see if that clears up the lag on Lammie first ... you hit or you missed... done.

That should simplify the physics and at least establish a baseline for how much of the lagging is due to the current physics calculations.

[Visty]

And of course this means Zeal, Fighter Alacrity, and Monk Wind Stance (Insight Portion) no longer help ranged attacks, meaning this partly nerfs ranged attacks. Can we expect double-shots (or heck, triple shots for the shuriken in wind stance) at a later date?

this is really something which should be adressed too
or maybe double strike just adds for ranged too and just worded poorly

[Judo]

I'd rather have the lag than these proposed changes. hell no. If you do this please give me Green Steel Deconstruction so I can un-gimp my toons from this horrible nerf. Do you want us to play anything other and THR barbs.

This is ********

/signed

[grodon9999]

This will be your "Sony" moment where you break the game like SWG.

[Cashiry]

Oh and how do you expect to get feedback, act on that feedback, and re-test with feedback before update 5 goes live on this far reaching of a change?

Ya, I'm with ya on this Cyr... If it hits Lamania with Update 5, it will come to live servers. I forsee no changes to this system and it is coming. Time to gear up for THF.

I'm sorry but 55% chance to land your off hand attack with a base GTWF build is a waste of 3 Feats and attribute points to get those Feats. You are going away from the D&D system once again.

[Seliana]

Eladrin,

If what is causing the lag is the number of dice being rolled at once why cant we start simplifying dice rolls to be much more efficient instead of changing the number of attacks everyone gets per second. Here is an example of maintaining randomness in on hit effects, but dropping the number of dice needed to achieve the calculation significantly.

A level 20 reincarnated monk is using a +5 Shocking(1d6) of Puregood(1d6) of Frost(1d6) handwrap, he has the Henshin Mystic monk set equipped(1d6) and is wearing a Red Dragonscale Robe(1d6) where his fists do 2d12 damage base, His TOD rings have 2d6 holy and 1d6 acid on them as well, and he hits his Stormstrike I(1d6) attack when he swings.

So his damage roll would be 1d6shock + 1d6good + 1d6frost + 1d6henshin + 1d6dragonscale + 1d6stormstrike + 2d6holy +1d6acid + 2d12base + 5 on every swing. That's 11 dice rolls every swing, but with a quick change we can drop that to 2 dice rolls every swing without taking away from that monks attack speed. What if the system simply rolled a single dice and applied it to all on hit effects of a weapon that involved that size dice roll.

For example the system simply rolled 1d6 and resulted in a 2, then rolled 1d12 and resulted in a 10. You could take that single number for each dice size and apply it to all effects. Thus it would deal 2shock + 2good + 2frost + 2henshin + 2dragonscale + 2stormstrike + 4holy +2acid + 20base + 5 = 43 damage

This simple change could result in up to 82% more cpu efficiency per attack to be made for some characters on every swing.

[EyeRekon]

Traditionally the software development mantra is "make it work, then make it fast." In this case it seems that combat is working, but just not fast enough. I think fundamentally changing how combat works may be the wrong approach. Now I certainly don't know the underlying architecture of the DDO system, but if high end Raid lag is due to heavy processing requirements then the server is simply lacking computing capacity to accommodate the load. Computing capacity is understood to be a far cheaper resource than development efforts are.

In the age of clouds and virtualization, why not spawn a dedicated combat server which will handle all the combat processing and I/O for high-end content? That will liberate the main servers from the task by reducing resource contention. Furthermore these combat server instances can be spawned as-needed to conserve resources and automatically scale with resource/load demand.

In other words the problem might have an architectural solution that would enable advancements in many other areas. A square peg can fit into a round hole, if the hole is big enough. Rather than grind off the square's edges, you can expand the hole. Making combat fit into existing lag realities is different from making lag realities fit existing combat.

If you don't do that already that is...

[Visty]

This will be your "Sony" moment where you break the game like SWG.

bit exaggerating, no?

[Cyr]

Are haste boosts getting the shaft also here?

If so the monster build just went from respectable to garbage. The halo effects from all this are enormous. Jeez, tempest 1 is shafted really hard also I am seeing. There goes a ton of interesting builds.

Heck with the arcane boost from the other changes it is Arcanes, divines, THF barbs, and THF pali's. I'm not seeing any compelling reasons anymore for ranger splashes or rangers period. Monks also are getting a big kick in the gut so they are out too. THF fighters if haste boost is shafted are out also. TWF fighters are gimped completly...thanks for that btw finally got Cyr back to a point where he was decent again... Rogues got a big dps loss also....

Wow, I can't even believe this is being considered seriously.

[Gratch]

You wanna know what the markets are doing? You can't handle these markets.

Monk items - slashed prices - going down - fast fast. handwraps... insanely low. Will they ever come back up?

Falchions going up... rising... stellar prices.

Rapiers, shortswords, scimitars, longswords and even khopeshes are edging down cautiously.

RED ALERT
A sword of shadows scroll was traded for 4 million plat. These things are so on fire, the sorcs are ashamed to have fire spells.

Breaking news: Yes, we're at the headquarters of [Power Gamer Guild] now. Apparently the guild has split in two. There was a SoS shard up for roll and it got mistakenly transferred to a wizard, who declaimed it to now be his loot and he was keeping it for a possible TR into a Barbo. Tensions ran high, drama ensues and yes, there are now two guilds.

Ah the markets - always going off fear or perceived fear or the perception that fear may someday be fearing the peeps.

[This segment of market talk brought to you by the I follow the forum rules when I post my feedback and by the BUY DDO STORE RESPEC HEARTS COMMISSION.]

[le_goat]

The only way i would agree to slowing down my monk is to up the damage dice. any other way and you are nerfing your unreleased pre's and monks would be unable to find a group.

[Grendyll]

I am extremely disappointed to hear of this nerf. 2HF had already caught up to 2WF and even passed it with epic SoS. Elite and Epic play is dominated by 2HF Barbarians and Kensai. All I see is a terrible and unwarranted nerf to 2WF and especially to the poor rogues who already struggle to find a place in high end content.

It sounds like you have proposed to reduce DPS lag by simply reducing DPS altogether. Make no mistake, this change will cost the average rogue 25% of his DPS and greatly nerf all strategies that involve high attack rate (vorpal, smite, banish, WoP, WoE, etc.). The sheer number of attacks being thrown by 2WF was the only thing keeping it remotely competitive with 2HF, now that is gone.

[Sirea]

So, question.

If *our* DPS is being nerfed, how about slightly nerfing mob HP/DPS to go along with it? The changes might be much less noticeable if there was an across-the-board reduction.

Less DPS means more of a burden on healers as well. Such a reduction would help healers that have to deal with mobs dropping slower as a result of these changes.

*crediting this idea to Clam (DragoonPenguin) because he's having a hissy fit in userchat right now saying I stole his idea*

[Judo]

You wanna know what the markets are doing? You can't handle these markets.

Monk items - slashed prices - going down - fast fast. handwraps... insanely low. Will they ever come back up?

Falchions going up... rising... stellar prices.

Rapiers, shortswords, scimitars, longswords and even khopeshes are edging down cautiously.

RED ALERT
A sword of shadows scroll was traded for 4 million plat. These things are so on fire, the sorcs are ashamed to have fire spells.

Breaking news: Yes, we're at the headquarters of [Power Gamer Guild] now. Apparently the guild has split in two. There was a SoS shard up for roll and it got mistakenly transferred to a wizard, who declaimed it to now be his loot and he was keeping it for a possible TR into a Barbo. Tensions ran high, drama ensues and yes, there are now two guilds.

Ah the markets - always going off fear or perceived fear or the perception that fear may someday be fearing the peeps.

[This segment of market talk brought to you by the I follow the forum rules when I post my feedback and by the BUY DDO STORE RESPEC HEARTS COMMISSION.]


/tinfoil hat on

and this coinciding with the release of +5 rezes

coincidence? i think not

i think we all are about to get the big oil bum rush

[Gratan]

hmmm.. let's see what it does to my two twf

13rog/4ftr/2pal - main 100%, offhand 55% (currently 100%,100%)

12ftr/6pal/2rog - main 100%, offhand 55% (currently 100%, 100%)

They'd both get the worst possible outcome for the twf line. So much for building a little out of the box. :(

And for any monk that is not in windstance we get the same as your above numbers.

[bloodyrag]

good to see some serious thought has been made towards the lag problem but i dont see how it works. less attacks means more time to kill mobs which equates to more healing and more fighting unless mobs hps are also turned down. im all for anything that helps lag just dont go introdusing things before they are fully tested and all problems worked out. a major change like this doesnt want to see a following ten mnor changes as u do rolling fixes to the major change. ]
and to say that warchanters are possibly getting the doubles trike song down the track completly screws over any bard that isnt a warchanter how tough will it b for these other bards to get a grp then

[BattleCircle]

So, question.

If *our* DPS is being nerfed, how about slightly nerfing mob HP/DPS to go along with it? The changes might be much less noticeable if there was an across-the-board reduction.

Less DPS means more of a burden on healers as well. Such a reduction would help healers that have to deal with mobs dropping slower as a result of these changes.

This!!

Who cares if lag is reduced if mobs take 50% longer to kill.

[Cyr]

So, question.

If *our* DPS is being nerfed, how about slightly nerfing mob HP/DPS to go along with it? The changes might be much less noticeable if there was an across-the-board reduction.

Less DPS means more of a burden on healers as well. Such a reduction would help healing characters that have to deal with mobs dropping slower as a result of these changes.

Too many halo effects here Sirea. TWF barbs and arcanes would be getting a huge buff by that. You can't fix this crazyness by more wide ranging changes. They need to kill the idea of reducing DPS and just keep the good idea of eliminating the extra physics checks.

[The_Phenx]

2 things Eladrin.

#1 The Kensai fighter is supposed to be a blade master... yet he receives the same offhand attack chance as a twf paladin?

How about a 5% per tier offhand attack chance for Kensai I II III... or something to that equivalent.

I realize tempest rangers are supposed to be the twf masters...but they shouldn't be that far ahead of a fighter who is specialty trained with one weapon and one form.

#2 How is this going to impact acrobats... are their tier I and II speed boosts being left alone since they are THF?

3. FIghter alacrity bonus the 30% speed boost is that being left alone?


All that ebing said.. not happy that my fighter I have had for 3.8 years is getting slammed with a big giant nerf bat.

[xTethx]

They wont tune down mob hp, cause then that just boosts THF. And as far as this fixing lag, no.

[Eladrin]

Are haste boosts getting the shaft also here?
At this time there are no changes planned for haste action boosts.


And of course this means Zeal, Fighter Alacrity, and Monk Wind Stance (Insight Portion) no longer help ranged attacks, meaning this partly nerfs ranged attacks. Can we expect double-shots (or heck, triple shots for the shuriken in wind stance) at a later date?
You are correct, double strike at this time does not apply to ranged or thrown attacks. We are planning on investigating various improvements to ranged combat in a future update.


Who cares if lag is reduced if mobs take 50% longer to kill.
Monsters would take 50% longer to kill only if the off-hand chance was reduced to zero, and a chance to attack under 100% was applied to the main hand as well. (As main hand attacks deal more damage than off-hand, with the exception of the monk.)

[Tharlak]

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.

Proposed Numbers:
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)


In my read, you differentiate between effects that grant speed vs effects that add to off hand proc rate. Speed morphs into double strike, while TWF line adds to off hand proc rate. That make's sense, but you mix that in places such as the monk air stances. Since these stance offer a speed increase, shouldn't they increase double strike not off hand proc. Or perhaps speed increases should do both, provide double strike on main hand and added proc on off hand.

For instance the Monk with staff example (somewhere in this thread). As airstance is a speed increase (insight increase on attack, plus speed enhancement) why not have the insight portion add double strike similar to Zeal and Fighter Alacrity?

[Lithic]

If 2handers and 2weaponers are going to be equal DPS, could you set it so that I no longer get -2 to hit with both weapons (or -4 with dual rapiers), and allow me to have a single weapon in hand but treat it as two (kind of like monk handwraps)?

We 2weaponers have to grind twice as much to reach our dps levels, and there should be a significant upside to it, especially considering someone with a 2hander and ZERO feats is about 90% effective in that style, while someone with no feats is about -25% as effective as someone with all 3 feats while using 2 weapons.


Oh and don't think I haven't noticed that this hits rogues the hardest once again. The class that is supposed to have devastatingly superior DPS in PnP is the only melee without a usefull alacrity bonus and the only class that really suffers from enemy fortification and sneak damage immunity (which is pretty much 100% of worthy enemy bosses, and all undead/constructs/slimes and a large portion of the IQ/DD monsters for some reason). And now you are taking away 25% of our sneak attacks. Great.

If I wasn't TRIng my brains out right now, this would likely be the last straw. Anyone know where Brenna ended up? He might get some company.

Nice to know someone admits they went overboard on the sword of shadows. Overboard as in "jumped out of the boat and into the next galaxy" that is. Now if only this mistake was aknowledged early on when people in the know were sounding the overpowered alarm. You could have avoided half the server switching over to 2handed style and grinding out an epic sword of shadows. If you do nerf it, you know the waves of nerd-rage will crash the forums again.

[J1NG]

I'd like to see these changes first on Lamannia too since I'm not on that other internal play test server.

But you know what?

I CAN'T go on Lamannia and test it out when you try it out. Why? Monk. WF. Premium. 'Nuff said.

I'm not really important, but expect lots of b!4h!ng and moaning from me because I can't even test it out and give a valid opinion from the changes when it comes out. And you KNOW that there isn't going to be enough testing and trying out.

Shintao III won't help make me happy now. :(

J1NG

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Well I'll put it this way, I'm in the middle of Lamannia release notes as we speak. We're going to be doing another wipe of characters on Lamannia to allow people to copy over their most recent characters, so I highly recommend hitting lamannia and getting into some combat, since it will have a two fold effect - feeling out the combat, and trying out some of the new guild-related features (will have a dev diary with more information about the guild part of things).

Thanks for the Lama character reboot!

[Aashrym]

I like the part about cutting the physical contact check in half but the rest of it I do not agree with... I don't even play many two-weapon fighting characters but you will upset a good portion of your player base by gimping them in your proposed manner.

I'm not sure they are so much as gimping the playstyle as correcting it. It really does dominate melee for a reason.

If it helps lag I am for it.

I do think some players might not be too happy about it tho ;)

And, Eladrin, thank you very much for the communication. It is appreciated.

[Battlehawke]

The biggest problem with all of this, is that some people have spent 4 years collecting weapons and building toons that are 2WF, and some of them are pretty freaking good! Some of them are "Godly" compared to most. I have 6 2WF's and 3 THF's. I enjoy playing the THF's more, but the 2WF's clearly outclass the THF. Like I said, people have spent YEARS developing and fine tuning these toons and outfitting them. Now you plan to make adjustments to all of that and it may take them years to get them back to being the "best".

If you want to get past all the fears that most of these people have then you may have to make some sacrifices, such as;

Allow a full/free respec
Allow Greensteel items to be changed (years of farming gone/useless for some toons)
Allow DT runes for DT Armor to be returned or adjusted (years of farming)

Some people have farmed for years to make their toons great and now will think YOU are nerfing them. YOU ARE! But for the benifit of all, and I think it's great! I can't begin to tell you about all the 2HF's in Pre Launch that were VERY discouraged when they figured out that they were being out gunned by Khopesh and Dwarven Axe dual wielders.. and then when WOPS came in to play....eek....

Anyways, you are bringing a whole lot of fear into people that have worked for years to get their toons to being the BEST... Help them get over it... give them some options... just in case.

Battlehawke

[Beherit_Baphomar]

So this will be in U5 on Lama within days/weeks?

Yeah, nothing to see here, move along.

[TFPAQ]

So even with the hit to handwraps ... potentially 1000 damage on my attack? Sweet ...

Hey Shade, lets have a "single swing" contest ...

My halfling Dark Monk potentially kicks your FB butt ... If he could reach that high ...


lol

[Razcar]

I wonder what the incentive will be to play rogues after this though. They will be a combat class with low hit points, 3/4 BAB, which do not get their DPS automatically but have to create the "right situation" to get it - but will now have almost 25% less DPS than they used to.

Guess this will kill the rogue class. Ah well, killing rogues have been going on for a while, might as well get over and done with it. :)

[Seosamh]

...have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.[/I]

So...sometimes I have two arms and sometimes my second arm is magically gone?

I'm against this, a lot.

[Cyr]

At this time there are no changes planned for haste action boosts.


Color me confused then. Why in the world is this not being implemented as a double strike add and an off hand hook add of equal percentage to the speed boost to maintain the same dps, but remove the extra physics checks?

If it is not the physics checks that are causing dps lag then you must fix your code instead, because simple math should not be lagging out anything with modern computers.

[Boromirs]

OP,

Hello, Im relatively new so I need a bit more clarification about any mechanics changes. Sorry, but tell me if Im understanding this correctly...

Say you are a fighter doing 600 damage per minute with your primary hand and 500 damage per minute with your off-hand.

Then, currently the total damage output W/ fighter alacrity is,

[Main Hand = 1.1 (110%) x 600 + Off-Hand = 1.1(110%) x 500] = 660+550= 1210 Total Damage.

After proposed changes to DPS, the total damage will be.

[Main Hand = 1.1(110%) x 600 + Off-Hand = .55(55%) x 500] = 935 Total Damage.

I think this is correct from what I have been reading. If so, fighters, paladins, and tempests and others who use TWF would need a boost of approx. 25% more damage to sustain them in-line to previous DPS levels. I know lag is a huge issue for your servers and most likely any out of-game mechanics changes that may result in a in-game side effect might not have been in the foremost of your considerations (it's understandable, Lag Monster effects everyone including your bottom line). Please, concern yourself with the lag first, but if the above calculations is correct please come around and remedy the side effects that your lag fixes will have on the TWF community. Thanks. :)

[Comfortably]

So, question.

If *our* DPS is being nerfed, how about slightly nerfing mob HP/DPS to go along with it? The changes might be much less noticeable if there was an across-the-board reduction.

Less DPS means more of a burden on healers as well. Such a reduction would help healers that have to deal with mobs dropping slower as a result of these changes.

*crediting this idea to Clam (DragoonPenguin) because he's having a hissy fit in userchat right now saying I stole his idea*

I don't mind DPS lag, it's a good kinda lag. ;P Something like this would have to be changed though, because it would totally screw the game up.

I'd rather just see something like in EVon6, where you have broken up the fight with the threat of being charred to a crisp.

[nicro]

Does Double Strike mean that a Monk's Touch of Death has a chance to double proc now?

[Eladrin]

How about a 5% per tier offhand attack chance for Kensai I II III... or something to that equivalent.
Interesting possibility.

We may instead go with a small double strike chance at each Kensei tier, which I think is more appropriate to the flavor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaki_Kojir%C5%8D#Swallow_Cut) of the PrE.


#2 How is this going to impact acrobats... are their tier I and II speed boosts being left alone since they are THF? Then it seems if in air stance using a staff it will just generate a 5% chance for a double strike in the first swing?
Currently the Thief-Acrobat has been left unchanged. We considered changing their staff haste to a double strike with staves ability, but decided to leave it alone for now.


3. FIghter alacrity bonus the 30% speed boost is that being left alone?
Correct.


So...sometimes I have two arms and sometimes my second arm is magically gone?
Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

[xTethx]

Does Double Strike mean that a Monk's Touch of Death has a chance to double proc now?

If I'm reading right, monks do not get double strike so no; but plz someone correct me if im wrong, i want to be :)

[The_Phenx]

Read Deeper.

I don't like that air stance is being changed to only become useful for TWF.

It really is going to hurt staff using acrobat monks.

The problem is since it grants the increased dex.. its necessary for max AC and they synergy with the new Acrobat I changes to how its applied to S/A Damage, not to mention the loss of alacrity.

Not to mention that you will be negating a 13/6/1 rogue/monk/fighter as a viable build since the additional monk levels will do absolutely nothing worthwhile.

Eladrin I don't suppose you would consider this as a proposed solution.

Currently -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)

Change to -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.) AND Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc a double strike when using a two handed weapon.

Or something along that flavor. That way air stance is viable to all fighting styles.

Will look for a response.

[Xithos]

The changes seem a little too biased towards Two-handed fighting; I'm a number cruncher and I always felt it was fine that TWF was better DPS due to having to invest more time in the collection of the gear for it (2x as many weapons) and needing a higher + to hit (TWF penalty requiring additional gear). The epic Sword of Shadows makes this situation much worse because there is no one-handed equivalent and if we ever see something very powerful down the line it will take even more time and energy to whip up 2x epic weapons as opposed to just one.

[Baahb3]

Yes there DPS difference is there, but it would be better to bring others up (sword and board especially) than to bring TWF guys down.



I have to strongly disagree here. The power creep in DDO is getting out of hand. Everytime something new comes out that people say is too powerful (ESoS for example), instead of taking that item or feature back down to a balanced level, people scream that other things need to be boosted.

IMO this way of thinking is adding a mistake to another mistake, not a good formula.

In this proposed system it looks like TWF would still be top dog but instead of only ESoS THFer competing with TWFers, all THFers will be able to compete.

Will have to wait to see the numbers but I currently don't have much of a problem with this.

[TFPAQ]

If I'm reading right, monks do not get double strike so no; but plz someone correct me if im wrong, i want to be :)

... that zeal, trip, monk elemental strikes, etc would have a chance to double-proc based on the "second chance", so there is no reason that ToD shouldn't have a chance to double up.

See my previous post challenging Shade to a "one swing" contest...

[Ukenburger]

The changes seem a little too biased towards Two-handed fighting; I'm a number cruncher and I always felt it was fine that TWF was better DPS due to having to invest more time in the collection of the gear for it (2x as many weapons) and needing a higher + to hit (TWF penalty requiring additional gear). The epic Sword of Shadows makes this situation much worse because there is no one-handed equivalent and if we ever see something very powerful down the line it will take even more time and energy to whip up 2x epic weapons as opposed to just one.

So we need the Epic Sword of Shadows capable of transmuting into a pair of Epic Khopesh of Shadows to help balance the power? :)

[ebit157]

Put me in the "rather have lag" column. This looks like it puts barbs (especially with the hidden bonuses currently being reaped) and other THF classes even further upon the pedestal. DnD is about flexibility in how you play the game. This moves the game further away from the core idea in more ways than one.

[Roda]

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.


THF twitch nerf? :(

[Cyr]

Interesting possibility.

We may instead go with a small double strike chance at each Kensei tier, which I think is more appropriate to the flavor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaki_Kojir%C5%8D#Swallow_Cut) of the PrE.


Double strike again favors THF. It is clear that everything in this change favors THF.

Here's a beter idea for kensei,

*As part of the individual weapon enhancments that you can purchase each tier you add the following benefit.

** If it's a Two handed weapon a double strike chance.
**If it's a one handed weapon a smaller double strike chance and a small offhand hook increase.

This balances between one and two handed weapons, S&B, and TWF.

[Hutoth]

no nerfing please.

lag fix = yes

nerf = no

[xTethx]

... that zeal, trip, monk elemental strikes, etc would have a chance to double-proc based on the "second chance", so there is no reason that ToD shouldn't have a chance to double up.

See my previous post challenging Shade to a "one swing" contest...

Ahhh guess i wasnt considering tod an elemental strike. :)

[Vengeance777]

There goes the dual heavy pick Amazon build I was working on :(. I just made some greensteel for them to.

Please up twf damage dice so we can still be viable if you make this change.

[Gurbatonden_Puggh]

This is just a nerf to twf wrapped up in a "look we will fix lag" package....If this were not a nerf they would just change the calculations to reduce the lag and increase the procs to equal the old levels thus not killing twf on splashs.....

Please dont try to sweep that under the rug and just tout how this to be the end of dps lag. It may help lag BUT.....It IS a nerf! It reminds my how legislators take a nice sound bill and load in a bunch of **** no one hears about....It is a nerf..

[The_Phenx]

Interesting possibility.

We may instead go with a small double strike chance at each Kensei tier, which I think is more appropriate to the flavor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaki_Kojir%C5%8D#Swallow_Cut) of the PrE..

I could agree with that... multiple flicks of the blade at openings sounds appropriate.



Currently the Thief-Acrobat has been left unchanged. We considered changing their staff haste to a double strike with staves ability, but decided to leave it alone for now.


THANK YOU! The speed of the acrobat is what really makes them a unique and fun build to play. Please make leaving them alone for now.. a permanent thing lol. :D

[LordPiglet]

Why do rangers get such a higher offhand attack and fighters and paladins do not? That is not the way DDO works currently. It would probably be a good idea to post the current numbers next to the proposed numbers so people got a better visualization of the changes.

Currently, a Temptest 3 ranger gets one extra attack that's not available to any other TWF. That's probably why they higher base on the off hand.

[Gringo]

I can remember being a ranger and being unable to find groups because you weren't seen as a dps source. Slowly the mind set changed and rangers were accepted into groups. Then the WOP nerf hit (which I support, it should have happened) and twf took a big hit. Now you want to decrease the amount of damage rangers do and send them back into exile?

Monks are just starting to gain acceptance in high level content, being seen as a source of DPS (be it less than almost every other class) and as an asset to groups and your going to knock them down now too?

With the system the way it is you see a wide variety of builds. After this TWF nerf (lets call it what it is) all we are going to see are half-orc THF barbs with epic SOS running around.


Reduce lag by reducing the number of dice rolls?

I Love It. With some of the suggestions in the posts, you can drastically reduce the number of dice rolls tied to every attack and reduce the overall lag.

Changing attack speed to double strike?

I don't like it, but will accept it. I like my ranger and monk being able to swing/punch faster than my barb but I can justify the change mentally from a flavor perspective.

Changing off hand attacks for ALL TWF builds?

Hate it, your going to kill classes and drive away subscribers.

I think you will see that most of the DDO populous will accept changes #1 and #2. But change #3 and you will have a very unhappy demographic of your player base. I for one don't want to see another mass exodus of players because you are taking all the hard work they put into their toons, and all the enjoyment they get out of playing them, away. TWF isn't game breaking, so please don't break IT :(.

[Seosamh]

On page one Coldin asked:


And just to make sure about something else. These off-hand chances. When they do proc, do they automatically hit then?

and you said:


All attack hooks have their own unique to-hit and damage rolls.

The off hand attack roll alone covers:


Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

So, you are double penalizing off hand - essentially treating a character as if they didn't have a second arm even if they rolled high enough to hit with the off hand.

Or am I not understanding correctly?

Edited for clarity.

[Aerendil]

Eladrin,

1 - will all characters be granted free greater rez. abilities with this if it goes live?
This is a massive change that may not only affect one's gear, but also their chosen class and play experiences.
Being able to re-build one's character is only fair compensation here. Additionally, greensteel deconstruction (as mentioned earlier) would also help.

2 - the values suggested for off-hand attacks seem somewhat low.
While I don't agree with having 100% offhand attacks merely with TWF, I also don't agree that having GTWF + Tempest III (the equivalent of superior or perfect TWF) should only offer an 85%'ish chance to swing your offhand weapon. This also hurts those classes that cannot (or don't want to) obtain Tempest or Monk splashes, such as Bard, who have just had their off-hand attacks cut in half.

3 - While you want to avoid nerfing GS unnecessarily, is it possible that the multiple effects (i.e. acid blast + good blast) on GS weaponry and Monk ToD rings are also attributing to some lag as each strike has to add X number of extra effects (which are growing and growing as time goes on)?

[Anthios888]

Attaching the offhand attack to the mainhand is a smart way to reduce lag, but reducing two weapon fighting's DPS by 25% is a problem for me.

The game was getting quite balanced between two-handed and two weapon fighting for most classes, with clear advantages in both. Two weapon fighting gave the vanilla baseline character an advantage, but it cost far more to maintain. Fighting multiple monsters with Greater Two Handed Fighting quickly changed that balance enough to matter. Class/race bonuses & equipment propped up two handed fighting to beat out that baseline on a large number of builds. Many weapons besides khopeshes were finally getting some use. Scimitar & falchion enhancements, favored soul favored weapons, ranger bow & arcane archer enhancements -- all of these were shaking things up. I have never seen the game this balanced (and varied) in that respect.

This change brings too many unintended nerfs to classes that simply don't deserve it. A small change in power is one thing, but I can think of dozens of builds that simply need to go reroll because they took lines like Kensei or Monks at face value, assuming the theme would keep them afloat even as the game changed.

I don't know what more to say. In all the time I have played DDO ... through "mod 9 coming soon" and Dungeon Alert and epic and everything else, nothing has really fazed my desire to keep pushing the norms and keeping things fresh in DDO. The way this change was implemented leaves me very, very disappointed.

[Jay203]

hehe
looking at the number of disgruntled ppl so far
this would be an interesting change for sure
now while you're at it, scrap greensteel altogether so we can stop hyperinflating monster stats :p

[bobbryan2]

What about... on attacks that don't trigger an offhand hook, the main hand would get a bonus in damage... say +10 damage or so.

That would go a long way to keeping a positive bonus for having an offhand weapon without requiring the lag from hitting with an offhand bonus.

In short... you can get away from, "the only benefit to fighting with 2 weapons is that your other weapon can hit too."

[Primalhowl]

A few comments.

First, I would point out for all those worried about the rush to test that based on Eladrin's comments, it appears that this is being put on to Lammania along side but not part of Update 5 for testing. Please clarify if I am wrong.

Next, I think that the change to offhand swing percentages is a good change as long as they can be balanced correctly. While this is not PnP, it is (supposedly) based on the d20 3.5 ruleset, in which a character with BAB of +16 and TWF,ITWF,GTWF would get 4 main hand attacks and 3 offhand attacks per round. Translated to this new system, a vanilla full BAB character with all three feats should have a 75% chance to proc an offhand attack, rather than the 55% Eladrin has shown. This could effectively push Tempest III rangers and Wind IV monks to 100% if done correctly, leaving the two groups who should be spinning balls of hurt as spinning balls of hurt.

I also feel it is a bad comparison to pick the acknowledged top end overpowered eSOS as a THF comparison to TWF rather than greensteel as 1)it is not nearly as common as greensteel weapons, and 2)it can only be used at lvl 20 whereas greensteel THF is available at level 12ish(?). In addition, using frenzied berserker as a means to justify the power of THF is also somewhat flawed as it is not available to a large number of THF builds. Arguably, TWF outpaces THF from level 12 to level 19 (18 in the case of FBs) when greensteel weapons are available. So I think a little balancing can be tolerated.

[Vua]

Well I'm happy we are actually getting a warning this time instead of the combat speed nerf fiasco we went through last time. Honestly I'm not a huge fan of playing twf builds. I have some, but I always liked the combat of thf better. Maybe some upward damage adjustments for twf could help balance some of the loss they are about to get hit with. Maybe something like mainhand gets 1.5x your damage modifier and offhand gets your regular damage modifier. That or up the damage from power attack when twf. No reason to stick to the rules any longer.

[TheJusticar]

Of course, I would highly suggest play testing it to death (and I mean a lot of focused QA/QC and player involvement) before implementing this sytem wide.

I agree with this proposed approach for three reasons:

1. Bringing the DoT of TWF and THF closer together.
2. Adding an extra roll of the die for extra procs (I like when lady luck is involved).
3. I can see how this system could circumvent a huge number of calculations and thus could be causing DPS lag.

[bloodyrag]

deconstruction of greensteel here would have to be a must if these changes are introduced. how many toons that have crafted greensteels for 2wf are going to no longer be a viable 2wf toon. why should they then have to accept because your engine cant do the computations fast enuff have to suffer years of grinding for those toons wasted.

[jkm]

Many Paladins are likely to want to TWF as well. Anyone that has bonus "on-hit" effects, whether it be sneak attack or actual effects.

actually this is wrong. in just doing a little math here, it looks like anyone with constant effects like sneak attack/kensai are going to lose out. however, anyone with a clicky attack is going to get a ton more benefit.

i understand what you are doing here and i agree with the methodology. however, this is going to drop rogue and 2wf kensai dps by 20% or so.

[Consumer]

BALLS

Yesterday I TRed into a TWF pally.

[Eladrin]

Color me confused then. Why in the world is this not being implemented as a double strike add and an off hand hook add of equal percentage to the speed boost to maintain the same dps, but remove the extra physics checks?
We did consider making that change, actually, but left them alone to keep their unique flavor for the Rogues and Fighters.


If I'm reading right, monks do not get double strike so no
If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks. You may have to wait for the next tier of Warchanter though.


That way air stance is viable to all fighting styles.
Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

[Tharlak]

Currently -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)

Change to -
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.) AND Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc a double strike when using a two handed weapon.



This is exactly what I would like to see.

[Irinis]

Whoa, can't believe some people are saying that nerfing TWF would be fine as long as we get greensteel deconstruction! It's not fine.

Gut reaction:
Double strike = cool
TWF nerf = horrible

Thoughtful reaction:
Double strike song for warchanters = you'd better have something equally good for the other two PrEs
TWF nerf = Why for the love of God why? First you nerf AC by making it meaningless in Epics and then you nerf TWF? This is not going to be fun. I'd rather players hold off on DPS during lag situations than have everything permanently nerfed whether it's a laggy situation or not.

I wonder if WoW has implemented those changes to make it less grindy yet... I might have to go check it out if DDO's going to completely change the very combat mechanic that brought me to love the game. :(

[Hutoth]

Attaching the offhand attack to the mainhand is a smart way to reduce lag, but reducing two weapon fighting's DPS by 25% is a problem for me.

The game was getting quite balanced between two-handed and two weapon fighting for most classes, with clear advantages in both. Two weapon fighting gave the vanilla baseline character an advantage, but it cost far more to maintain. Fighting multiple monsters with Greater Two Handed Fighting quickly changed that balance enough to matter. Class/race bonuses & equipment propped up two handed fighting to beat out that baseline on a large number of builds. Many weapons besides khopeshes were finally getting some use. Scimitar & falchion enhancements, favored soul favored weapons, ranger bow & arcane archer enhancements -- all of these were shaking things up. I have never seen the game this balanced (and varied) in that respect.

This change brings too many unintended nerfs to classes that simply don't deserve it. A small change in power is one thing, but I can think of dozens of builds that simply need to go reroll because they took lines like Kensei or Monks at face value, assuming the theme would keep them afloat even as the game changed.

I don't know what more to say. In all the time I have played DDO ... through "mod 9 coming soon" and Dungeon Alert and epic and everything else, nothing has really fazed my desire to keep pushing the norms and keeping things fresh in DDO. The way this change was implemented leaves me very, very disappointed.
/signed

[Boromirs]

WAIT, SOMEONE JUST COME OUT AND SAY IT?!

IS THIS A LAG FIX? OR IS IT A TWF NERF?

Im reading more and more and Im starting to get anxious that this is a TWF nerf... someone please say it isn't so.

[tihocan]

See my previous post challenging Shade to a "one swing" contest...
You'd still lose to a roll of 19-20 combined with a lightning strike proc. Though it'll definitely take more swings than a double ToD ;)

[Zion_Halcyon]

No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness. ;)


You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az8r1Xmwjmo

[wruggler]

It seems understandable that a physics check has a significant computational overhead. Using the same physics check for both the main attack and its matching offhand attack seems reasonable.

Besides that, is the remainder of this proposal based on profiling the computation in the source code and data traffic during combat with TWF DPS characters? Is there a debug client and server with profiling/instrumentation enabled? :)

It seems that the proposed approach is introducing percentage chances to guard against more computation overhead with the offhand proc rate and dual strike approaches. I don't know how the client and server communicate during combat and which side computes what exactly. What about aggregating the data traffic from matching main and offhand attacks in an attack sequence? Or is this done already?

Just asking from my programming hat... :D

[Nomical]

Slowing down the damage output in the game isn't fun. It's also not fun to completely change what build combinations make for good dps. Finally, it costs 2x as much work to gear out a 2wf character with shroud or epic crafted weapons. It's not fun to have half those weapons not work, have epic SoS be better than any other fighting style in the game, and have many characters need to change from 2wf to 2hf to be optimal.

This system looks TERRIBLE and has been the first thing to really upset me about the game. I'm usually pretty chill on the cries of doom, but this just looks unfair and like the ruin of lots of planning, building, and gearing work.

Some things they might do instead to decrease the number of calculations per attack:

change flags that give 1d6 damage to giving a static damage increase of 3.5 damage.
increasing the consolidation of calculations, give weapons a static base damage number instead of XdX damage/swing


Also, with their doubled subscription base, they could get better hardware that can handle the game. I really find it hard to believe that a computer can't handle processing 232 attacks/minute, but it can handle 116 attacks/minute just fine. Computers can work at such smaller speeds - this seems like a crazy macro fix for something that's more likely weird coding that makes each swing way more process-intensive than it needs to be.

[Thrudh]

Why not just make the one physics detection for both attacks and leave everything else the same?

I'm curious why we don't just start with that as well... Usually, it's better to make one change at a time...

[Megaton_Samurai]

I will concede that TWF could use a nerf, but this is a horribly lopsided one. You even have a chart at the end of your post demonstrating this. I do not at all like how brutally this change effects non-tempests. This will destroy the TWF Wizard I have in the making, yet will leave my exploiter build almost completely unmolested.

I like unconventional builds, a lot. You are not making it easy for me.

[DarkAlchemist]

if you do do this (which it seems like you will), it would be nice to see these numbers reflected in the ddo character sheet, maybe with the glancing blow proc rate. the rules that govern your character shouldn't be hidden
Back when I enjoyed the "old Turbine" in my AC1 days we had to figure everything out ourselves but at least they left us with a drudge dummy to practice on. Now fast forward to DDO and we still have a "New Turbine" that wishes to keep us ignorant (on most everything) and doesn't even give us a dummy to practice on.

I have a 20 monk this will hurt and I have a 12 Kensai monk this may just totally destroy and I feel the doom the others are saying too. I don't like being pigeon holed into anything but I feel this is where DDO is headed.

[TFPAQ]

If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks..

I don't suppose ToD triggers on that off-hand attack ... 1500 damage ... would be sweet, but could live with "only" 1000 I guess...

[Gurbatonden_Puggh]

On a positive note I see there are +5 lesser hearts of wood now, after this we should see special +6 "remove my ranger levels" hearts of nerf.......grrrr, don't like this.

[Archetype]

Nice

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/Drewseye/She%20Blinded%20Me%20With%20SCIENCE/100TonExp2.jpg

If the lag of a thousand prox check rolls
Were to burst at once from the servers
That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One
I am become Nerf
The shatterer of TWF

Now we have something WORTH talking about until Update 5, thanks. :D

[Omega2K]

Eladrin,

If what is causing the lag is the number of dice being rolled at once why cant we start simplifying dice rolls to be much more efficient instead of changing the number of attacks everyone gets per second. Here is an example of maintaining randomness in on hit effects, but dropping the number of dice needed to achieve the calculation significantly.

A level 20 reincarnated monk is using a +5 Shocking(1d6) of Puregood(1d6) of Frost(1d6) handwrap, he has the Henshin Mystic monk set equipped(1d6) and is wearing a Red Dragonscale Robe(1d6) where his fists do 2d12 damage base, His TOD rings have 2d6 holy and 1d6 acid on them as well, and he hits his Stormstrike I(1d6) attack when he swings.

So his damage roll would be 1d6shock + 1d6good + 1d6frost + 1d6henshin + 1d6dragonscale + 1d6stormstrike + 2d6holy +1d6acid + 2d12base + 5 on every swing. That's 11 dice rolls every swing, but with a quick change we can drop that to 2 dice rolls every swing without taking away from that monks attack speed. What if the system simply rolled a single dice and applied it to all on hit effects of a weapon that involved that size dice roll.

For example the system simply rolled 1d6 and resulted in a 2, then rolled 1d12 and resulted in a 10. You could take that single number for each dice size and apply it to all effects. Thus it would deal 2shock + 2good + 2frost + 2henshin + 2dragonscale + 2stormstrike + 4holy +2acid + 20base + 5 = 43 damage

This simple change could result in up to 82% more cpu efficiency per attack to be made for some characters on every swing.

Seliana and I are on the same page here... Want to reduce DPS lag? Reduce the number of rolls and computations required without nerfing the game entirely and ****ing off you customer base!

And why no Dev comment on Seliana's or my ideas? Could it be you have already made up your mind and this is just your way of selling it to the customer base (and in the process selling your +5 Hearts of Wood)? I am getting a bit perturbed here. You are not giving us a democratic vote, only a ruse.

I said before I don't play TWF characters much so this nerf would actually increase my prowess on the server since I prefer THF... But what I don't like is the way you are trying to swindle and **** off the customer base. You want our honest feedback? You are getting it! Now behave in a transparent manner and tell us what you plan to do with our ideas.

[tihocan]

WAIT, SOMEONE JUST COME OUT AND SAY IT?!

IS THIS A LAG FIX? OR IS IT A TWF NERF?

Im reading more and more and Im starting to get anxious that this is a TWF nerf... someone please say it isn't so.
It's both.

[Cyr]

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

More confused logic here Eladrin. If this is a lag fix then why is there all this selective winners and losers stuff going on? This is a big nerf for quarter staff using monks. FYI, they suck right now and didn't need a nerf to match your idea of what flavor they should have.

[Temko]

i dont really care "how" something is calculated.

"is there a reduction in damage?"

if yes = alter % until it's gone.
if no = leave % as is.

but it goes beyond that.

TWF compared to THF (which needs that **** twitch fighting fixed) deals a bit more damage against a single target, as opposed to THF dealing mor damage against several targets due to glacing blows.
S&B should do as much damage as a TWF without a offhand weapon. period.

In the current % based numbers, it looks like TWF get a nerf of 15% to 45% in damage. also bieng as the ammount of attacks that are done is lowered.. the real advantage of TWF and the main purpose ot TWF is also nerfed: Special effect weapons like Banishers, Smithers, Disruptors, Shattmantle, Shatter, cursespewing etc.. .lose a lot of their worth as they chance to proc gets lowered as well.

personally i dont care how you do it behind the scenes. just dont nerf the ammount of attacks we do or the DPS that is dealth with TWF.

if you feel DPS is broken for TWF, THF and S&B... fix that in a seperate change. this change is sweeping enough without the nerf.

[Eladrin]

And why no Dev comment on Seliana's or my ideas?
The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Edit: There's also many, many posts in this thread that I haven't replied directly to.

[Potvin]

I can remember being a ranger and being unable to find groups because you weren't seen as a dps source. Slowly the mind set changed and rangers were accepted into groups. Then the WOP nerf hit (which I support, it should have happened) and twf took a big hit. Now you want to decrease the amount of damage rangers do and send them back into exile?

Monks are just starting to gain acceptance in high level content, being seen as a source of DPS (be it less than almost every other class) and as an asset to groups and your going to knock them down now too?

With the system the way it is you see a wide variety of builds. After this TWF nerf (lets call it what it is) all we are going to see are half-orc THF barbs with epic SOS running around.


Reduce lag by reducing the number of dice rolls?

I Love It. With some of the suggestions in the posts, you can drastically reduce the number of dice rolls tied to every attack and reduce the overall lag.

Changing attack speed to double strike?

I don't like it, but will accept it. I like my ranger and monk being able to swing/punch faster than my barb but I can justify the change mentally from a flavor perspective.

Changing off hand attacks for ALL TWF builds?

Hate it, your going to kill classes and drive away subscribers.

I think you will see that most of the DDO populous will accept changes 1 and 2. But change three you will have a very unhappy demographic of your player base. I for one don't want to see another mass exodus of players because you are taking all the hard work they put into their toons, and all the enjoyment they get out of playing them, away. TWF isn't game breaking, so please don't break IT :(.


This sums up my feelings. I'm very fearful that this pure monk DPS nerf is going to really hurt my enjoyment of this game post level 20 achievement.
I don't have time, or desire, to level multiple characters here, especially if they are going to be irreparably nerfed for the 'sake of lag reduction'.

I'm all for the change in mechanics, just don't nerf a) overall damage or b) combat builds comparative to each other right now.

If:
a) the 18/2 ranger/monk does 100% of max possible damage, and
b)a 20 barbarian does 95% of that max damage, and
c)a 20 monk does 92% of that max damage, and
d) a pure fighter does 90% of this max damage

then do not change this ratio in the new system
(note: the above values are just made up by me, to provide an illustration)

Changing this ratio of DPS/build more then anything else will cost you in angry customers.

[Correlan]

All hail the Mighty Nerf Bat!

So, nerfing haste wasn't enough, you are now 'fixing twf' to help with lag at end quest level, how about taking haste away completely? Actually, while i'm thinking about it, just take TWF out of the game. It would probably be better to just send all paying customers their money back, i think nerfing this will finally be too much for the older player base.

[Verengor]

I don't like the change. Yet another step more away from the D&D rules.

I'd suggest something like this instead:
1) Let TWF fighting chars only make one attack roll for both the mainhand and offhand attack. If the attack misses both attacks fail, if the attack hits both swings hit the target. In case the to hit bonus of main and offhand are different only the average to hit bonus will be applied to the hit.

2) Roll the main damage in one roll for both weapons: e.g. 2d8+15 instead of 1d8+7 and 1d8 +15 (if DR of mobs is involved the dr must be doubled ofc).

3) I don't know how hard to code the following is: Many people use two weapons with nearly the same abilitys (shroud weapons or holy weapons, handwraps always fullfill this). Everytime you change a TWF weapon the game checks the the extra damage rolls (holy, fire, ...). If both weapons have the same ability the effect is doubled on each hit instead of rolled twice until the weapon is changed again (remember to code x2 elemental resistance if needed).

With these mechanics TWF would involve less rolls than the suggested system and less rolls than THF (no glancing blows)

[Gobbothegreen]

Well twf isnt the only thing getting nerfed, they are also removing glancing blow from thf while moving so twitching will be nerfed too.

[Eladiun]

I like it although it would seem to me that Tempest Ranger should have 100%/100%, if it is to keep its place as the example of 'best/perfect twf'.

I actually got the DPS lag thing one night in Devil's Assault (normal, believe it or not), and suffered Lag-death as a result.

Tempest Capstone...hint, hint.

Overall, I'm not bothered by the change either if it fixes the issue. If the change brings TWF and THF inline damage wise, I think that's fine.

[MeToo]

Thank you for sharing this with us, Eladrin.

As a computer programmer who appreciates the complicated intricacies of "real time" networked client-server systems and how this will help consolidate packet traffic and server load, I say, "Bravo!"

As a methodical DDO player who invested extra time planning and leveling a Kensei II TWF 28 point build without tomes who currently relies heavily on his off hand paralyzer, I say, "Ouch."

Couldn't we keep the current payoff from investing in TWF by scaling both hands instead of just the main? I'm fine with reducing the actual number of attacks if the damage is increased by a percentage for each TWF feat taken or something. Maybe make power attack more effective the more TWF feats are taken.

To appease players that like to see their character attack faster as they level up, I suggest the client show the extra attack animations on screen but still only process and transmit the fewer, consolidated requests behind the scenes.

[Anthios888]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, and angers the playerbase. Many people have called for a two weapon fighting adjustment, but this, as described, simply throws the scales the other way.

And the worst thing is... this does not even promise to fix the lag problem.

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

[Aerendil]

If you acquired a double strike effect from somewhere, then yes, Touch of Death could double strike (and trigger an off hand attack) for a total of three attacks. You may have to wait for the next tier of Warchanter though.

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

I like the idea of reviewing Monk stances - Water and Mountain are definitely overdue for a look at.

As for ToD possibly getting a double-proc??
Light monks are already at a pretty severe disadvantage for burst dps compared to Dark - this could completely slaughter light monks :(

[txan]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing

[Gnorbert]

All of you saying this is a hidden nerf can just stop... Eladrin comes right out and says in his initial post that this results in a nerf to TWF. (and indirectly to ranged as well for some unfortunately)

[Omega2K]

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Thank you for the reply but TAKE THE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT! It is not just about how quickly you can make changes, it is about how quickly you can make the right changes and improve the performance of the game and keep DDO alive and prosperous at the same time. If this change is not going to be ready in time for Update 5, don't push it through rapidly and make the wrong choices in the interest of time to market...

[rdasca]

Yeah my AA Ranger is now closer in dps to all those Tempest Rangers out there.

Ok all kidding aside, as stated I think these changes are a very bad idea, while something needs to be done about lag and I applaud your attempt to do something; cutting people's number of attacks by an average of 25% is not the answer. Going this route makes quest and raids longer it puts an increase on healer and caster resources (i.e. Mana pots and the like).

Frankly dps lag is cause more by the number of people on at a given time then by the amount of damage being done to a raid boss, as others have said if you are on at non-peak times there is rarely lag, if you are on at peak time you get lag no matter what kind of party you are in.

So add the two together and you come up with longer fights more resources used and very little if any real change to the lag issues, lose / lose all the way around. Lag wipes are already very frustrating, add this to the mix and not only are they frustrating, but now you get to invest more time running a raid to get to the point where lag is an issue and at peak play times the lag will still be there.

Given that the test server has a lot fewer players on it the only real test will be to release it live and by then it will be too late. My guess is Turbine will go ahead and put these code changes in anyway regardless of what kind of feedback you get, but if there is a chance you are listening, then sorry but I vote no.

[rest]

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

Ding ding ding ding. Winner!

[TFPAQ]

You'd still lose to a roll of 19-20 combined with a lightning strike proc. Though it'll definitely take more swings than a double ToD ;)

then I'll use my greensteel handwraps with lightning proc and, oh ... never mind ...


lol

[The_Phenx]

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

Sun stance is nice for str, but costs a lot.

1 less ac and 1 less S/A damage per hit.

I will wait and see what you come up with.. you have always been more than fair to staff weilders.

[Eladrin]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing
We're attacking the problem from many directions.

[Gnorbert]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing


Yesssss, I'm sure dealing with unhappy customers is "the easy way out".

/rolls eyes

[Cyr]

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.


Change those time frames then. You shouldn't be even thinking about trying to push this out quickly.

[die]

sorry, i have a very short att. span will my two lightning strikes proc on the off hand

[highlandar]

if ddo does this then PUT IN DECONSTRUCT , SO GET ALL INGREDIANTS BACK FOR HAVING GIMPED TOON FROM DDO MAKING DRASTIC CHANGES INSTEAD JUST FIXING ##$%$% PROBLEM. THIS WAY GET ALL INGREDIANTS BACK AND JUST USE TWF RANGER FOR STORAGE

[cdemeritt]

I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.




Since you asked for "instinctive feedback", I'll reply.... I'm sure this isn't going to be very helpful, but my stomach did flips when seeing your post.... While not certain this will really be the outcome, I read this as "We are going to reduce the DPS lag by reducing DPS". While reducing the lag is good, I am not a full numbers guy, and didn't really follow the post, it might be better, and even boost S&B some, I don't think it will go over well, probably worse than Dungeon Alerts...

[Thrudh]

So even with the hit to handwraps ... potentially 1000 damage on my attack? Sweet ...

Hey Shade, lets have a "single swing" contest ...

My halfling Dark Monk potentially kicks your FB butt ... If he could reach that high ...


lol

Heh, a TWF Paladin with Exalted Smite could potentially get three smites off for about 1500-1800 points of damage... :)

[Tarnoc]

ok so my toon isa lvl 12 ranger tempest 2 7 fighter kesai kopesh human one rogue...

i have oversized two weapon fighting and all the twf line from ranger.....

i dual wield many varieties of gs kopeshes.....max crits ive seen base damage from 160ish to 200ish favoured enemy.....each hand...

please explain wat this will mean to me

[cforce]

I think the system is interesting, and makes sense in general. However, the drastic damage nerf to most TWF builds seems to be pretty severe, and I don't see any indication from the technical reasons why the percentages are cranked so low. Trying to do apples-to-apples, the current feats would give:

TWF: 50% "deterministic chance" of offhand hooks
iTWF: 75%
gTWF: 100%

Cranking the contributions of these feats from 100% offhand hooks down to 55% seems ludicrous! Is TWF currently that overpowered?

Personally, I *just* did a LR on my Fighter 12/Pally 5/Rogue 2 to move him over *to* TWF. Turning around and giving him a 25% decrease in efficacy right after I respecced him would make me livid.

[TheJusticar]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, and angers the playerbase. Many people have called for a two weapon fighting adjustment, but this, as described, simply throws the scales the other way.

And the worst thing is... this does not even promise to fix the lag problem.

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

I disagree. All but one of my melee toons are TWF. Took a lot of effort to grind the materials in the last 2 years -- sure. Would I mind sacrificing a bit of DPS over time if there's a good chance it'll improve DPS lag (which at times can be right out brutal and the cause of party wipes)? You bet.

People need to stop a breath a few times before posting. I find it amazingly awesome they are seeking our feedback. This is NOT an announcement. This is a call for discussion which we all appreciate. Or would you rather them deal with it with Mournlanders only and then drop the bomb like they did with the Transmuting/WoP changes?

[Luis_Velderve]

If you reduce damage output, will you reduce mob's hitpoints,damage reduction,fortification ect.. in THE SAME proportionated way? If you require less swings to kill those HUGE calculation will reduce right?

There is a lot required to have a decent twf and the mechanics is PnP correct. Given that lag is a problem but if nerf is your solution ,a proportional overall nerf to foes is more than fair.

Maybe a twf with bastards and glancing blows will ease my pain! or what if you have a single weapon style feats with decent bonuses that will decrease the twf builds overall?

After all said I got to say that I think that Aesop will come with a fair solution.

[Visty]

hmm, just remembered i wanted to LR my THF mystic theurge to a TWF version...and as i play in europe LR hearts are **** rare as we only had a chance on the traveller hunt wihtout rebuying blessings

seems like i now have to wait out how this change impacts the game...and i already made my min2 and light2 DAs :/

[Valindria]

My gut feeling is I do not like this.

I have a twf Bard as my main, and level 10 acrobat(rogue/monk) and a Paladin (twf) that I am working on.

1. I like the full swing cycle, I don't want a % for my off hand to trigger.
2. I like seeing the effects of faster attacks.
3. The chance to attack an extra time with my main hand does not improve this feeling. I know there will be people who will do the numbers to see if the dps is close. I personally would rather not have this and keep the twf the same.
4. It is actually more complicated for Itwf/Gtwf. I like that every user with the three feats gets the same attack (no including bous to rangers)

I think you should do Remove physics check for offhands, and if possible make it something like this:



Eladrin,

If what is causing the lag is the number of dice being rolled at once why cant we start simplifying dice rolls to be much more efficient instead of changing the number of attacks everyone gets per second. Here is an example of maintaining randomness in on hit effects, but dropping the number of dice needed to achieve the calculation significantly.

A level 20 reincarnated monk is using a +5 Shocking(1d6) of Puregood(1d6) of Frost(1d6) handwrap, he has the Henshin Mystic monk set equipped(1d6) and is wearing a Red Dragonscale Robe(1d6) where his fists do 2d12 damage base, His TOD rings have 2d6 holy and 1d6 acid on them as well, and he hits his Stormstrike I(1d6) attack when he swings.

So his damage roll would be 1d6shock + 1d6good + 1d6frost + 1d6henshin + 1d6dragonscale + 1d6stormstrike + 2d6holy +1d6acid + 2d12base + 5 on every swing. That's 11 dice rolls every swing, but with a quick change we can drop that to 2 dice rolls every swing without taking away from that monks attack speed. What if the system simply rolled a single dice and applied it to all on hit effects of a weapon that involved that size dice roll.

For example the system simply rolled 1d6 and resulted in a 2, then rolled 1d12 and resulted in a 10. You could take that single number for each dice size and apply it to all effects. Thus it would deal 2shock + 2good + 2frost + 2henshin + 2dragonscale + 2stormstrike + 4holy +2acid + 20base + 5 = 43 damage

This simple change could result in up to 82% more cpu efficiency per attack to be made for some characters on every swing.


Correct me if I am wrong, but if a caster casts a fire wall and it crits, don't all hits of the wall count as crits? I wouldn't care if I rolled a +1-6 on all the same effects.

[TFPAQ]

Heh, a TWF Paladin with Exalted Smite could potentially get three smites off for about 1500-1800 points of damage... :)

Dude, your ruining my fun...

Didn't you see that all TWF Pallys need to switch over to THF Pallys ... everyone in the thread said so!

-jk

[EyeRekon]

So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing


That's more or less the point of my post as well.

[Slorgs]

Also, with their doubled subscription base, they could get better hardware that can handle the game. I really find it hard to believe that a computer can't handle processing 232 attacks/minute, but it can handle 116 attacks/minute just fine.

If only adding another server to the pile would solve all our problems! Wow, genius. Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that? We'll just buy a thousand more servers and throw them on the pile. It won't cost anything to put them up, maintain them, power them, support them etc.

The things that can affect performance are: system software (unix/windows/misc), DBMS software, Game software,
hardware, network, etc.

All the servers on the world won't solve many performance issues.

Also: I'm not sure why most people assume that epic SoS will never get fixed.

[MarcusCleardawn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but

Wouldn't just combining the to hit and proximity rolls for Two Weapon Fighting deal substantially with the lag issue without having to nerf monks, tempest rangers etc. into oblivion?

This is a very heavy nerf to characters that have had a difficult time getting accepted to raid groups to begin with, and now it seems you're gutting them just as they gaining acceptance.

Perhaps it would be more prudent to deal with the lag issue first. Then deal with damage gap issues.

[sidgarret]

This is gonna be fun......

Im going to hold my final opinion until i see this for myself -but it dont sound good.

It have one nice bonus though - i dont have to see Barbarians next to me that look like they dropped a load in their pants (aka twitching) if they want glancing blows:p.

But it does not bode well for me. Have one Monster build TR with lots of equipment and a healing exploiter build as my other main char....

I guess time will tell. But i say one thing - if u nerf me to 100/55 on my monster and i have lag in shroud i wont be a happy bunny.

[bobbryan2]

So my analysis:

Rangers seem to be getting the best of it. Doublestrikes and near the same TWF speed.

Monks aren't terribly far behind... but have the unfortunate side effect of having wind stance nerfed badly... while at the same time making it completely essential for TWF. Before I could sit in sun stance to gain ki... but now that would drop me back down to 55% proc rate on off hand. Terrible.

Kensai... ok... we get it. You want them to be THF.

Barbarians already got that memo.

Paladins got hit really hard by this. Went from 100% chance of double smite to a 55% chance of double smite with stat investment and 3 feats. I can't see that as a good trade off. I really think falchion paladins took a big step forward.

Rogues... yeesh. Rogues got nothing out of this other than smack downs. No double strikes, no increased off hand percentages... nothing but slaps.

Ouch.

[Mister_Peace]

"Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. "


Eladrin, in terms of causing DPS lag, which is most accurate?
1 Physics detection checks are the largest source.
2 Attack rolls are the largest source.
3 On-hit checks (damage rolls, lightning strike proc, etc) are the largest source.
4 Monster AI (including applying damage and status conditions to monsters) is the largest source.

"I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting."

Second question. Which of these statements is most accurate?
A DPS lag is a problem, and we need to solve that first.
B Combat styles are imbalanced, and we need to solve that first.
C We should solve these two problems at the same time.

[sigtrent]

Traditionally the software development mantra is "make it work, then make it fast." In this case it seems that combat is working, but just not fast enough. I think fundamentally changing how combat works may be the wrong approach. Now I certainly don't know the underlying architecture of the DDO system, but if high end Raid lag is due to heavy processing requirements then the server is simply lacking computing capacity to accommodate the load. Computing capacity is understood to be a far cheaper resource than development efforts are.

Its not really that EyeRekon, its also the com time from your client to the server across... you know... the whole internet. The process of matching where your character swings to where the monster happens to be at that moment is the problem and while that takes cycles it also takes comm time which is far slower. Halving that time is a big gain that no amount of cloud can solve.

[Creeper]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes

Then:



(Wind still grants the enhancement bonus to attack speed.)


I am confused. Wind stance still grants attack speed bonus AND double hit bonus, or are you saying it only grants speed bonus on THF but not TWF?

Then, I want to comment: This really, really nerfs monks, who suffer no str or to-hit penalties to off-hand unarmed attacks, the most I think. Making off-hand attacks as valuable as main hand attacks to monks.

Will these double strikes have a "hook" with ITWF and GTWF?
The un-diminished offhand damage and the ability to do elemental ki strikes and finishers on a hook (2 in 1) is why you see monks getting kills equal to other DPS classes.

On an unrelated note: Will monks be able to hit things that are moving now?

I am suspect of this, because I do not think it will reduce lag, but think it may nerf TWF and be the biggest across-the-board nerf we have ever seen. Is this a bad thing? We'll have to wait and see! :D

[Mister_Peace]

I really think falchion paladins took a big step forward.

The spell Holy Sword can create many swords and non-swordlike weapons, but not Falchions.

[EazyWeazy]

So my analysis:

Rogues... yeesh. Rogues got nothing out of this other than smack downs. No double strikes, no increased off hand percentages... nothing but slaps.

Ouch.

And we all know that Rogues really needed to be slapped more. :rolleyes: :mad:

[Steiner-Davion]

Initial thought - significant Nerfage to TWF DPS output, but this might not be all that bad, as TWF will no longer by the only choice. S&B and THF will now be on par with TWF DPS output, making those builds more viable and respecable.

Question: Is there any difference between the physic check and the attack role? If Not then why not just enable the off hand attack to use the same physic check and a different attack role? If you can do that, than nothing else needs to change.

[bobbryan2]

Dude, your ruining my fun...

Didn't you see that all TWF Pallys need to switch over to THF Pallys ... everyone in the thread said so!

-jk

You seem to be poking fun...

But do you think that a 50% chance of double proc and 5% chance of triple proc is the same as 100% chance of double proc?

[Asketes]

Whoops. see post 228


I must have pressed Submit instead of Preview

hehe

[Eladiun]

If you want to get past all the fears that most of these people have then you may have to make some sacrifices, such as;

Allow a full/free respec
Allow Greensteel items to be changed (years of farming gone/useless for some toons)
Allow DT runes for DT Armor to be returned or adjusted (years of farming)



This I agree with completely...(well maybe not the DT part so much but the first 2) Any change of this magnitude without the option to completely respec is poor judgment.

[sigtrent]

WAIT, SOMEONE JUST COME OUT AND SAY IT?!

IS THIS A LAG FIX? OR IS IT A TWF NERF?

Im reading more and more and Im starting to get anxious that this is a TWF nerf... someone please say it isn't so.

Its both. They could do one without the other, but its doing both.

The chaining of the off hand to main hand is the lag fix. The reduced rate of swings of off hand is the nerf.

[MrCow]

So my analysis:

Rangers seem to be getting the best of it. Doublestrikes and near the same TWF speed.

Near same speed? They lost 10% attack speed from Tempest I and that 5th off-hand attack from Tempest III (~-21% attack speed).


See above

Fighter Alacrity and Zeal no longer have attack speed bonuses. They just have double-attack +10%, which only works on the main hand weapon.

[Seosamh]

TWF currently, two swings - one main hand, one off hand:

2 Physics checks

2 Attack rolls

TWF proposed, two swings - one main hand, one off hand (assuming you proc your off hand):

1 Physics check

2 Attack rolls

1 percentage roll (to determine off hand proc)


So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

That's worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS, right?

Wrong.

[slimkj]

Before I could sit in sun stance to gain ki... but now that would drop me back down to 55% proc rate on off hand. Terrible.
I hadn't even considered this. I sometimes dip into Sun to generate ki too. :/

[SquelchHU]

I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.


Correct.

My instinctive feedback huh?

1: Fix the servers, don't nerf everyone because you can't. Plain weapons tend not to trigger DPS lag, whereas weapons with many effects do. I'd be willing to wager if you streamlined the coding for adding x good and x acid and whatever other damage types you'd do more to fix DPS lag without nerfing anyone, or making them swing slow as molasses. Now if you were keeping the off hand triggers to the same odds of an offhand attack we had before I wouldn't mind so much, but they are in fact lower. Keep in mind that this game's main edge over every other MMO is fast paced combat, therefore anything you do to diminish this directly diminishes DDO's appeal over its competitors.

2: The game is melee DPS oriented because massive boss HP totals make it that way. DPS lag only triggers with high dps being applied for an extended period. As in, raid bosses and nowhere else. Nerfing the melee is not going to help with that. After all, it's not like spell damage can pick up the slack, and 'fixing' DPS lag by making it so you can't apply enough DPS to kill the mob before it kills you...

3: If TWF is better than THF, that's a combo of itemization and most effects not scaling up when using a two handed weapon. So you get Holy once instead of twice, etc. You cite Epic SoS as an outlier, and this is indeed true. However, as Epic SoS was one of the few reasons to run Epic, and one of the few reasons to build a THF I'd say that's not a problem of TWF being too good, but a problem of THF lacking.

We'll see how it actually goes, but right now I am eyeing my sub renewal date with much trepidation. Between this and other factors I strongly believe that you and the other devs are out of touch at best. I doubt I am alone in this.

[Baahb3]

I also feel it is a bad comparison to pick the acknowledged top end overpowered eSOS as a THF comparison to TWF rather than greensteel as 1)it is not nearly as common as greensteel weapons, and 2)it can only be used at lvl 20 whereas greensteel THF is available at level 12ish(?). In addition, using frenzied berserker as a means to justify the power of THF is also somewhat flawed as it is not available to a large number of THF builds. Arguably, TWF outpaces THF from level 12 to level 19 (18 in the case of FBs) when greensteel weapons are available. So I think a little balancing can be tolerated.

Very well put.

The Tempest III Ranger 18 class is at 85% chance to land off hand attacks when not using a monk weapon, not the 25% loss of DPS that people are talking about. Add in the items that will be giving/adding to the double strike chance, their DPS will not fall all that much.

I also think the Kensei line should add to double strike chance, if they impliment this then they too will loose some but not much DPS.

The biggest hit classes right are the Monk and Rogue (more so the Rogue). I think Air stance should bring us to 80%, just under the Tempest III mark.

I really don't know what to do for the TWFing rogues out there. They loose out on 45% of their off hand attacks with no current way to boost that number. This is something that will need to be addressed before fully implimenting this proposal.

[Hendrik]

Thank you E for the heads up and wanting to get our feedback early.

On the fence about this just by reading what you have in mind. Some actual playtesting on Llama will sway my vote.

[Irinis]

I like unconventional builds, a lot. You are not making it fun for me.

Fixed it for ya. NEVER use the "e" word here...

[tihocan]

Barbarians already got that memo.
Some of us ignored the first memo, here's what we get for not following the trend :rolleyes:

[joker922]

So how will critical hits with the "off-hand" now work, since there will no longer be an attack and comfirmation roll for it?

[kaelis]

Dear E,

I gotta tell you, at first glance it seemed, okay, then i finished reading went away ate some lunch and checked back. Now I'm not so sure, but regardless I won't join the band wagon again and cry d00m til I see them in action. Especially since you have admitted multiple times to be willing to tweak the system to what seems to balance out pre/post patch dps the best while maintaining an acceptable amount of reduction to dps lag.
Cool beans, /Wait.

To all the monks, all I have to say is please kindly stop. Your coming out better then most other TWF classes. Better of then fighters and paladins from first glance, let alone TWF Bards and Rogues who just fell from the bottom of the dps charts to not even ON the chart - compared to even monks. I shudder to think of one attempting to compete with an eSoS build now. So please, take your fancy new prestige lines [that your getting before classes that have been here since launch, and quite honestly need(read as: deserve) them more].

[Visty]

See above

to your red comment: no, 55% is correct as the capstone doesnt give 10% attackspeed anymore, just 10% chance for a double hit

thats why theres the 110% for mainhand

€: so many posts befor mine went off, lol

[MateCarefor]

I am looking forward to contributing as much time as I can to the test server to help y'all work on this change.

Gut response:
Thanks for acknowledging there is lag and trying to engineer solutions.
I have seen 'other' games/companies that deny deny deny.. so I once again commend you and your team for trying to head DDO in the right direction.

My Confusion:
I get the lag being reduced by limiting calculations required because of modeling, or physics, etc.; at least I can see the logic in that being a problem.
What I am a bit confused on, is if you are adding additional proc effects, like Double Strike, that cause calculations/animations/effect, how does that lessen lag?
If I triple smite a boss with a Min II, as well as 3 other folks, aren't we all 'lagging' while the server bounces back to us what the other clients did and the result and back again, etc etc?
(I know, very vague)
I guess, what I am curious about, is how is adding more calculations for procs, and more damage effects (and more spew in the combat log) going to 'reduce lag'?

Isn't it really more of a TWF mechanic change that in some way 'may' be tied to minimizing lag?
Just a gut comment - I will read the thread more closely, and look for the posted notes on the test center.
(Apologies if I am totally off-base)

[idiotsync]

I beta tested this game, preordered it and got it at launch. Played to 10 (the current cap at the time) and saw everything. Decided to stop until more content got added and ended up forgetting about DDO for a long time.

Well I came back recently since it's free now, dropped a little money in the store to buy stuff for my account rather than sub. Made a TWF character since I used to play a caster and now this... goddamn this is some crazy "welcome back" for me. Has me asking myself why I am coming back to this game years later if they are still making sweeping changes to the combat system. I want a game where the mechanics are on firm ground. Not a game that is acting like it's in the first launch year and making huge changes that affect my characters.

[Tharlak]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, and angers the playerbase. Many people have called for a two weapon fighting adjustment, but this, as described, simply throws the scales the other way.

And the worst thing is... this does not even promise to fix the lag problem.

At the end of the day, we'll have lag AND disillusionment...

At least Turbine makes more money with the hearts of wood store?

You nailed it.

This is a TWF nerf under the guise of fixing lag.

[Glenalth]

Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

Weird, I always thought that's what the attack roll was.


I'm not seeing any issues with the actual process being used, but the reduced damage is going to anger a lot of people.

[ViolentEnd]

If I am reading all this correctly, my TWF Barb who I have TRd, ground for gear, crafted, and built to hit everything with every swing, is now losing 45% of my off-hand attacks?

and yet monks and rangers are only losing approximately what 5-10%?

/sad panda

Another thought ... I guess everyone who has taken oversized twf gets a free feat now, as off-hand attacks are proced from main hand attacks?

[Valindria]

TWF currently, two swings - one main hand, one off hand:

2 Physics checks

2 Attack rolls

TWF proposed, two swings - one main hand, one off hand (assuming you proc your off hand):

1 Physics check

2 Attack rolls

1 percentage roll (to determine off hand proc)


So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

That's worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS, right?

Wrong.

Don't forget the calculation for double strike.

[Asketes]

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.
Two handed weapons already seem to proc less glancing blows before, that and the WF Weapon Aptitude is broken, and the Barbarian extra THF procs don't apply properly. So now we will see less glancing blow procs. There seems to be such a low chance at the proc to begin with, why lessen that to zero?

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.


Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55% (20(base) 15(twf) 10(itwf) 10(gtwf) = 55
Shouldn't this be 65 b/c alacrity gives an additional 10%?
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55% same here, assuming zeal


For the most part, I think this system entails a new step for DDO, controlling lag, lessening dps so that monsters may not need a bajillion hitpoints in the future. Looking forward to checking it out!

What I wrote in red, is my calculations off? I presumed Fighter Alacrity / Paladin Zeal gave an additional 10% chance.

The only thing that makes me sad is what I've written in green.

[Aethene]

So basically....

Leaving epic SOS unchanged....

And reducing my dps on my kensai III khopesh twf from 110%/110% to 110%/55% or something like that?

So basically everyone will grind out epic sos?

All this for fixing shroud lag?

WHAT ARE YOU GUYS ON?!

remove the extra physics check.... sure
lower my offhand attacks in half..... no..... just no

It will be all barbarians and epic sos

[mons]

We're attacking the problem from many directions.

Since we are finally getting some communications and it is very much appreciated regardless the topic, when, Eladrin, was the last true Server upgrade?

[EyeRekon]

Thinking more about the problem at hand it seems to venture into the realm of Realtime Computing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing

For the uninitiated, don't confuse Real Time with instantaneous, it is actually "hardware and software systems that are subject to a 'real-time constraint'—i.e., operational deadlines from event to system response."

What is being faced her is a bunch of inputs/requests (combat actions) and the expectation of reasonably timely output/responses (rolls, damage, effects, messages). Without an establishment of a "reasonable" response deadline it is impossible to make any assumptions of how things are expected to perform.

Already trading platforms, exchanges, and mission-critical systems deal with this kind of problem all the time. Orders come in and must be matched within a guaranteed maximum delay. I would argue that combat is as close to a mission-critical function of the game as you could possibly get. There are products and vendors that can supply you with realtime systems that you could use to handle combat.

[Potvin]

Initial thought - significant Nerfage to TWF DPS output, but this might not be all that bad, as TWF will no longer by the only choice. S&B and THF will now be on par with TWF DPS output, making those builds more viable and respecable.
.


Umm why exactly should Sword and Board be similar in DPS to TWF? S&B has AC advantage. Saying they should be similar in DPS is foolishness.

Above and beyond the fact that some classes, like my monk, cannot use shields.

[TFPAQ]

You seem to be poking fun...

But do you think that a 50% chance of double proc and 5% chance of triple proc is the same as 100% chance of double proc?

just based on the math you did they appear to not be equal:

50% x 2 + 5% x 3 doesn't equal 100% x 2 ... silly bear ...

jk,

I'm in the camp saying one roll hit or miss either "both" hands hit or you missed the barn big boy ...

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

If only adding another server to the pile would solve all our problems! Wow, genius. Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that? We'll just buy a thousand more servers and throw them on the pile. It won't cost anything to put them up, maintain them, power them, support them etc.

The things that can affect performance are: system software (unix/windows/misc), DBMS software, Game software,
hardware, network, etc.

All the servers on the world won't solve many performance issues.

Also: I'm not sure why most people assume that epic SoS will never get fixed.

Calm down a bit there...we're just offering alternatives that would be less of an impact on the community, as well as possibly being more cost-effective. (though not so much now that they've already spent man-hours developing the new combat systems)

And it doesn't necessarily mean adding servers...replacing outdated server hardware and upgrading network hardware would be just as efficient. Methinks they have thought much of this through and simply are doing this to try to kill 2 birds with one stone by nerfing TWF as well. Plus, Eladrin already pointed out that this would only help marginally, so other alternatives may be just as effective, if not moreso.

Besides, between you and me, they are most likely going this route not only to boost store revenue with the purchases of hearts of wood from respecs, but also to re-validate the jobs of many developers who may have to justify their positions after the recent WB purchase. Happens in every company when changes like that come about. Usually hardware upgrades/rollouts are projects that you might bring in additional resources to perform, while additional programming is something that they already have the personnel for.

again, just my opinion...

[Symera]

It appears to me (and to many others it seems) that there are two major components to the change. A) transaction piggy-backing and B) a major revamp to combat system mechanics.

I am completely for the reduction of dps lag. For most people, with even moderately recent computers, experience this lag in end-game raid content. Changing the melee mechanic in the proposed way will without question require a great deal of re-balancing of the classes and adventures. Reducing averaged dps makes it take longer to kill boss mobs and portals, etc. Thus requiring more spell point devoted to healing, changing the desirable makup of a party... the changes will cascade and ripple out for a very long time to bring things back into balance. I forsee this as a potential killer for the game. It has been for a number of other games in the past (i.e. SWG).

Also, I think it is important for many people to understand that the calculations in determining hits and the like are not the bottle-necking factor. Rather the number of transactions that must be handled, and more importantly their overhead is. The number of cycles spent on doing the math to dertermine if an attack hits is miniscule when compared to the handling of the packets to bring them in off the wire, move them through the hardware and memory, and then put them back out the same way.

Aditionally, one of the biggest draws to DDO is how combat feels when compared to other MMORPGs. It is quick and responsive. People really do not want to give that thrill of combat up.

There may be a way to address the above factors and not have to butcher the game.

PROPOSAL
First, leave the entire combat system alone. It works fairly well. Make the underlying transaction system changes where there exist problems. For example, when attacking special targets (portals, Harry, Sully, etc) where you set in for the duration, pack multiple attacks into a single transmission. This would retain the responsiveness of all other situations and only affect situations (boss sieges) where attacks just all run together anyway.

Another option would be to have the server self-monitor for transaction rate and have the ability to communicate to the clients to shift gears until things improved (or some time has passed). This would further insulate against balancing for specific hardware.

There are many technical things that can be done to improve dps lag.

[testing1234]

equipment nerfes is after TR system only thing i fear and this is pretty much my nightmare
dont mind doing a TR but getting a complete new set of weapon makes me close to crying.

but i do the numbers and bye bye TWF

[Seosamh]

So how will critical hits with the "off-hand" now work, since there will no longer be an attack and comfirmation roll for it?

Read page one and two.

Spoiler: There are still attack and confirmation rolls for your off hand, so your question is not relevant.

[zarious]

Already going into epics and trying to hit anything with any less than a fully raged barbarian THF is not very productive. This really really smacks of trying to fix dps lag by simply reducing dps. Any build that's not ranger splashed or pure fighter already has to make considerable concessions in ability points poured into dex and feats to get the full benefits of TWF. Instead of adding diversity, you're pushing more builds towards THF. I personally don't find THF fun and all of my builds would suffer from this change.

I really don't understand the mentality that I perceive the dev's to have towards fixing problems with lag. First it was DA, which is something that no one really wanted, now it's reducing dps to reduce lag. Who's asking for less dps? Just fix the lag. I don't understand all the complications involved in fixing the problem, but I am almost certain there are ways to simplify combat and reducing lag without reducing DPS.

Now back to epic. Do you intend to reduce some of the ridiculously inflated hit points that occur in epics in conjunction with this nurf, or is it the intent of the dev's that only solo arcanes or barbarians backed up by healbots be even remotely effective at epics? Most TWF builds that I've seen just starting out on epics are already reduced to dual wielding weighted 5% weapons and waiting for it to proc which will be even less likely with these changes.

In short, fix the lag and leave the dps alone. I have a really hard time believing that you have to reduce dps to reduce lag.

[Khelden]

THANKS TURBINE FOR FINALLY TRYING TO BALANCE TWF AND THF!!

Oh my god, it's so great to know they know about the issue of TWF >>>>>>>>>>> THF and are working on it. We might have the choice to go THF or TWF on fighters and paladins too instead of being a dumb if going THF.

Continue the nice work guys!

[Creeper]

So please, take your fancy new prestige lines [that your getting before classes that have been here since launch, and quite honestly need(read as: deserve) them more].

No.

We have just as much of right to give our feedback as you, thanks.

No reason to be rude.

Eladrin asked for feedback and here we are.

[Laith]

TWF currently, two swings - one main hand, one off hand:

2 Physics checks

2 Attack rolls

TWF proposed, two swings - one main hand, one off hand (assuming you proc your off hand):

1 Physics check

2 Attack rolls

1 percentage roll (to determine off hand proc)


So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

That's worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS, right?

Wrong.
there's a difference between a "check" and a "roll". the physics check is determining "is there an enemy in the way of my weapon". To perform that check, they probably compare coordinates of both people considering weapon type and facing.
A roll is much simpler, computationally speaking.

You're also forgetting:

removal of the .15 second timer/procedure request (we don't know which it is) between physics checks.

I have reservations about the % chance of off-hand strikes thing (ie: the nerf), but the other parts of the proposition (replacing some alacrity with double strikes, removing redundant physics check) sound great to me.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

Ok let me get this staight for years you have been unable to figure out the lag issues? So your proposal is to once again drop the "N" bomb on sum of the funnest char to play with in DDO ??? Why is it always the same equation of Fix = Nerf ????????

And for the record thats a big fat

/NOT SIGNED

[Eladiun]

Thank you for the reply but TAKE THE TIME TO DO IT RIGHT! It is not just about how quickly you can make changes, it is about how quickly you can make the right changes and improve the performance of the game and keep DDO alive and prosperous at the same time. If this change is not going to be ready in time for Update 5, don't push it through rapidly and make the wrong choices in the interest of time to market...

Agreed. We have lived with the lag this long....if it takes 9 months to do it right do it right.

[Thrudh]

Near same speed? They lost 10% attack speed from Tempest I and that 5th off-hand attack from Tempest III (~-21% attack speed).

Fighter Alacrity and Zeal no longer have attack speed bonuses. They just have double-attack +10%, which only works on the main hand weapon.

Fighter Alacrity and Zeal aren't that bad... You go from 10% total DPS boost to 10% boost on main hand only... but main hand gets full strength bonus, and off-hand didn't, so you're probably dropping from 10% DPS boost to 7% DPS boost with Fighter capstone and Zeal...

Tempest I is a HUGE change... You go from 10% total DPS boost to 10% bonus to off-hand procs... Since off-hand swings are no longer 100% with GTWF AND off-hand swings get 1/2 of the strength bonus... this really destroys Tempest I...

However, it must be said that 6 ranger was ridiculously overpowered anyway... what with the 10% speed (equal to abilities a fighter gets at 20, or paladin at 14), plus all the nice spells and feats a ranger gets by 6th level.

[Razcar]

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. [...]estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route.
So what would be the point of using TWF?

TWF costs:
1. Need double the amount of all weapons: crafted greensteel, vorpals, undead bashers etc. Expensive and very time-consuming (and takes up inventory space to boot).
2. Requires a natural 17 Dexterity to qualify for GTWF, 15 for TWF.
3. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.
4. Gets minus to hit on all attacks

THF costs:
1. Need to buy three feats in the line to reap full benefits.

The advantage of TWF was higher DPS. That will now be gone. That makes TWF not only pointless, but actually stupid to take since there's only costs left (and severe ones!) and no benefits.

[Visty]

the thread was closed because its silly to have more then 1 thread about that

if ppl want to comment, they can post here

[Siskel]

How about leaving the TWF fighting chain alone, and change the haste bonuses in question to double strike bonuses?

[EyeRekon]

Its not really that EyeRekon, its also the com time from your client to the server across... you know... the whole internet. The process of matching where your character swings to where the monster happens to be at that moment is the problem and while that takes cycles it also takes comm time which is far slower. Halving that time is a big gain that no amount of cloud can solve.


Which leads me to my latest post. Comm is certainly a factor, but many mission-critical, realtime systems do use networks for communication of events already. It is neither a new or unsolvable problem. The same communication path of client-internet-server-internet-client exists and applies to the proposed solution just as well. The cloud wouldn't at all change "the process of matching where your character swings to where the monster happens to be at that moment." All that changes is where that processing is being done. If anything a separate combat server does somewhat address the comm factor by moving to a less-trafficked path.

I do appreciate the effort and discussion.

[grodon9999]

bit exaggerating, no?

Not at all. If this nerfs my damage output at all I'm canceling my sub.

I'll even bet this doesn't help lag at all either.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

As someone who doesn't care one way or the other(it won't change how I play), I just want to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to get the communities feedback on an issue in this format Eladrin, and I hope you continue to do it like this in the future. Color me impressed.