Combat Feedback for Update 5. [Archive] - Page 8 - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Grendyll

05-29-2010, 11:22 PM

So how about using this type of system :

Instead of “double-attack” chance, use a more general “multi-attack” chance. If the multi-attack chance is greater than 100%, make the attack, then subtract 100 from the chance and repeat the check. Continue until a check fails or the chance falls below 0. Track the main-hand multi-attack chance separate from the off-hand multi-attack chance. The main hand would start at 100%, the off-hand would start at 25% (or 20% or whatever based on the available feats/enhancements).

Swing speed would be solely determined by BAB, convert all haste effects to “multi-attack” effects (applied to both main hand and off hand).

The combat attack action would proceed as :

1)perform collision check to see what target is struck by an attack swing.
2)check main hand multi-attack chance (if less than 100%) and resolve first main hand attack (if the check succeeds)
2b)subtract 100 from main hand multi-attack chance and check again, if successful resolve that attack
2c)continue until a check fails or percentage chance falls below 0
3)check off hand multi-attack chance (if less than 100%) and resolve first off hand attack (if the check succeeds)
3b)subtract 100 from off hand multi-attack chance and check again, if successful resolve that attack
3c)continue until a check fails or percentage chance falls below 0

For 2 Handed Fighting it would start the same, but at step 3 would be different
3)check to see how many glancing blows could potentially process (randomly decided up to 3 depending on feats)
4)check range to nearest N targets where N is the number determined above, keep only targets that are possibly within range
5)for each target in range perform the collision check to see if a swing can connect physically (no barriers or other objects blocking, whatever the physics stuff needs to test)
6)for each target that passes the physics check, resolve a glancing blow attack

Only a single collision test would be needed for each attack sequence from a 2WF. I don’t see any way around 2HF requiring several checks for glancing blows.

But please, if you implement double-attack or multi-attack or whatever, make sure that most haste effects apply equally to both hands or else every buff added will have possibly unintended side-effects on the balance between 2WF and 2HF.

Even if balance is achieved some day, let’s not get to the situation where adding “double-attack” spells/abilities/gear will be inherently more beneficial to 2HF than to 2WF.

A “slow” effect in this system could be represented as a –50% to main-hand and off-hand multi-attack chance (to a minimum of 50 probably for main hand and 10 for off-hand, one-half their starting values).

ariel7

05-29-2010, 11:24 PM

The consensus is that my Assassin III rogue will lose mutliple vorpals and about 20-25% of her offhand hits, which in my case means fewer radiance blinding hits and fewer auto-crits, which sucks my DPS down even further. For what benefit, again? Unless this is incorrect, I'll take the lag, thanks. I'm a casual p2p player, so I don't know all the stats, calculations, etc. What I'll know is that if I'm not as useful in a party, I'll never be allowed in an epic raid again.

I could TR, but then my two multi-shard GS rapiers would be useless, along with half my gear (rogue-centric stuff like assassin and mechanic set). If I'm going to have to start over, it might as well be with another MMO that hasn't pushed my toon out the door yet. Again, only saying that if this is truly the nerf it sounds like. Someone post some good news? Or maybe something that shows a little more information on the difference for rogues besides lumping us into "other".

Yes, I'm interested in that as well. I am curious as to what my characters end results will be with this change. I don't want to have to make thf only to be effective.

Borror0

05-29-2010, 11:29 PM

The consensus is that my Assassin III rogue will lose mutliple vorpals and about 20-25% of her offhand hits, which in my case means fewer radiance blinding hits and fewer auto-crits, which sucks my DPS down even further. [...] I'll never be allowed in an epic raid again.
Well, on the bright side, the vorpal ability didn't work in Epic already so that part is unchanged...

Grendyll

05-29-2010, 11:32 PM

westudi

05-29-2010, 11:49 PM

Hmm. So maybe I shouldn't bother getting tier 3 on my dual weapons just yet.

WirelessJoe

05-30-2010, 12:04 AM

Well, on the bright side, the vorpal ability didn't work in Epic already so that part is unchanged...

Understood, and that's made it hard enough to build a character that could be useful in Epic runs. A possible reduction in DPS just adds to the problem. Even I wouldn't take me into an epic raid.

Brother_Solar

05-30-2010, 12:06 AM

Hmm. So maybe I shouldn't bother getting tier 3 on my dual weapons just yet.
Most TWF classes/builds (rogue falls into this category too) would be losing 10% DPS. I don't see that as reason enough to throw in the towel, but your opinion may differ.

Erekose

05-30-2010, 12:17 AM

Mister_Peace

05-30-2010, 12:22 AM

This thread currently has 1750 responses.
That is a lot of posts to read.

Eladrin, which of these statements is most accurate?
1 Each of the posts in this thread will be read because we value the community input on this issue.
2 Each of the posts in this thread will be read because we have no life.
3 Each of the posts in this thread will be read because we want to neg-rep the haters.
4 Only some of the posts will be read because we have enough input.

Brother_Solar

05-30-2010, 12:25 AM

Ok, I can't find anything in this thread that answers my questions, so could someone to be frank and give me the straight up news on my current melee's. It looks like most of the testing is looking at Tempest, Pali's and Monks.

I wan't to know the effect of the proposed changes will be on my 4 melee's.

1. FB WF 18 Barbarian / 2 Rogue GTWF (HvY Picks/Khopesh) Base DEX: 17

2. FB Dorf 18 Barbarian / 2 Rogue GTWF (DA) Base DEX: 17

3. Kensai WF 18 Fighter / 2 Rogue GTWF (Khopesh) Base DEX: 17

4. Assassin Halfling 20 Rogue GTWF (Rapier) Base DEX: Can't remember, maxed out DEX.

Thank you and I appreciate your time if you answer my questions.

Erek

I don't know what the DEX requirement will be for Superior Two Weapon Fighting (STWF). I believe the BAB requirement is +15, so a pure rogue would be disqualified.

1. If you can use a higher level feat slot to take STWF, no change. Otherwise, you'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

2. If you can use a higher level feat slot to take STWF, no change. Otherwise, you'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

3. If you can use a higher level feat slot to take STWF, no change. Otherwise, you'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

4. You'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

Garth_of_Sarlona

05-30-2010, 12:36 AM

Something else I like the idea of using (I think some other folks have mentioned this already) :

IN RAID ZONES ONLY, use average results for the added effect rolls on weapon swings, e.g. Holy = 7, Acid = 4, Shocking Burst = 4 plus 6, 11, or 17 on criticals (depending upon crit multiplier). I think rounding up is the most fair since it is possible that this would eliminate the chance to overcome elemental resistances in certain cases (like if a creature had fire resistance 5, a flaming weapon should actually be able to do 1 point of damage 1/6 of the time, but if averages are used, it will never do damage).

This assumes that pulls from the RNG are computationally expensive. I am not sure if analysis has revealed that this is a significant load on the system (greatly depends on the RNG implementation I guess).

I don't think RNG calculations are too expensive. I would guess that the two most expensive operations would be the physics check and then the player feat lookup to determine combat hooks during swings.

The physics checks are more than halved by Eladrin's suggestion given that there are now a maximum of five per attack chain when before there were ten,and that's before even counting the reduction in combat chains per second due to the replacement of alacrity bonuses with double strike.

With respect to feats; before, the game had to check a player's twf feats during combo chain to determine whether a particular animation hook had one, two, three combat hooks attached. Now a static percentage can be cached and a d100 roll made for each animation hook to determine whether there is an additional offhand attack roll or not.

For those recommending the coalescing of multiple weapon procs into a single damage number. Remember that each type of proc has to make a separate DR check against any ablative or static spell or innate ability that the target has e.g. a mob might have stoneskin and resist fire 20 so 10 has to be subtracted from base then 20 from any fire damage then 10 has to be taken off the mob's stoneskin, and this example doesn't even take inti account DR bypassing that has to be catered for...basically there are a lot of things happening when you strike a mob and I'm sure the devs have to be very cognizant of potential halo effects. E.g. for example the creatures who currently right now fight 'two handed' need to probably be checked to make sure this change hasn't nefted them too... there is now a subtle but important difference between having a huge str and having a huge str and twf when previously they were equivalent.

Just my armchair 2c.

Garth

Borror0

05-30-2010, 12:36 AM

Eladrin, which of these statements is most accurate?
I would wager that all of them will be parsed and the most interesting will be forwarded to the design team.

Bigrtt

05-30-2010, 12:49 AM

Coming from a monk stand point, this update will really suck. Seems like all that effort I've put into my TR monk going wind stance, for the attack speed is going to be thrown out the window. Don't like it.

Lowering TWF dps? Most of us monks who use Kamas don't do much damage as it is, we rely on the speed of out attacks to keep up....now that's getting nerfed?

Sorry. I think instead of nerfing TWF you should be looking at other ways to handle all the DPS output. Nerfing TWF is going to be a slap in the face for all the time a lot of us have spent into making characters.

Erekose

05-30-2010, 12:50 AM

I don't know what the DEX requirement will be for Superior Two Weapon Fighting (STWF). I believe the BAB requirement is +15, so a pure rogue would be disqualified.

1. If you can use a higher level feat slot to take STWF, no change. Otherwise, you'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

2. If you can use a higher level feat slot to take STWF, no change. Otherwise, you'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

3. If you can use a higher level feat slot to take STWF, no change. Otherwise, you'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

4. You'll lose 20% of your offhand swings.

Thx mate. Barbarians have very few non-granted feats to play with so I guess STWF won't be an option. Fighters on the other hand have more flexibility with feats.

So basically 20% off all off handed attacks per attack sequence which is for GTWF about 3 or is it 4 attacks minus 20%?

twoton

05-30-2010, 12:51 AM

dopey69

05-30-2010, 12:55 AM

i gotta say if this slows down our combat like the last time it will be just enough to drop this game once and for all! will wait and see the comments from the testing on lamania before I get all the uptight about this. still does not sound good for our combat that we love ,but we will see . you guys have enough new players now so it won't matter too much to you if a lot of us bail . thanx for trying to fix lag but this.....i duno sounds horrible to me to be honest , time will tell. For myself from here on in I stop buying turbine points tho i see no reason to waste ne more money on a game that I may have to drop because of the gimping of twf ....ps ( I spend to much money on this game ne way lol i could have bought everything 4 or five times over )

Halock

05-30-2010, 12:58 AM

With respect to feats; before, the game had to check a player's twf feats during combo chain to determine whether a particular animation hook had one, two, three combat hooks attached. Now a static percentage can be cached and a d100 roll made for each animation hook to determine whether there is an additional offhand attack roll or not.

Garth

Dont see why it cant check upon logging/ zone changes/ level up what feats a person has and set the number of hooks in each animation in the chain, no calculations need be made during combat this way, you're either 'flagged' for an offhand hook on this attack or not and, for monks and pallies, they dont have to play the guessing game of 'will i get a double proc from this attack when i smite.....****, maybe next time' which i foresee as being very frustrating and leading to an even further dps loss.

I still havent seen any proof of TWFs deserved damage nerf, if it needs one, fine, but i really cant get behind the random chance for offhand attacks thing

redoubt

05-30-2010, 01:03 AM

There are probably 1000 others who have already said this, but I'll toss in a bit of feedback based on reading your post El.

My main character is a dex based 18 ranger/1 rogue/1 monk. This character has 38 dex and only 22 str. With rams might it goes up to 24 plus the rams might damage bonus. This character is not simply and "exploiter" as it can do any trap in the game (spot, search and disable up to elite).

This character thrives on speed. Each hit does not do great damage. It is the high rate of attack that makes the build work. Sometimes its proc'n blindness from a radiance rapier, sometimes it is dual vorpals, sometimes is w/p's. Sometimes its minII and metaline of pg for dps. One thing they all have in common is the need for doing a lot of attacks fast. Without speed this build dies. Sure it might still be a good trapsmith, but I won't play a one trick pony.

Now, I realize that many people do build STR based characters that attack as fast and some even faster than my build here. I realize that you are concerned about how much damage those builds do. Sadly I do not know how to address your problem here.

How does this impact my personal play and plans? I had just read my email from Turbine tonight and say some promotions on the store that I thought were decent. I was happy to see points on sale and excited about the +5 lessor hearts. I was all set to drop $50 on points and buy some +5 hearts to bank away for rearranging my toons pre-TR. These plans are on hold now. I'm not going to spend the money.

To be specific, if there is a need for it, I was going to drop two +5 lessors on the character i described above. Push the character to 11 monk/1 rogue/8 ranger. Then TR the second time (but picking up the monk past life feat instead of the ranger one.) That's 3 expensive hearts, plus the money for the supreme +2 tome that I'd do to help with the leveling. I think that's something north of $100 on just that one character.

I've already excepted that this is not a high dps character. I make it work by playing smart and always grabbing the best weapon for the moment. I move and attack aggressively. I love this character. I play this character 90% of the time. Dropping another 13.5% to 40% of my damage (the estimates are pretty wild at this point) is not acceptable to me. I'm already down on dps compared to any dps build.

I guess I should end soon, so BL: for me if dex based twf'rs slow down/lose dps I'll spend at least $100 less in the store (for just this one character, prolly less on others as well) and I may even drop my 4 year old VIP account and quit all together. I've retired several other characters when you have nerfed them. When this character retires, so do I.

I've loved the game so much it hurts, but this might be our last dance. :(

eonfreon

05-30-2010, 01:05 AM

Okay I just got back and I could only read a little bit but I did catch another tidbit that rankles me.
Perhaps it's been covered but I have a question.

So Eladrin states:
That's useful feedback as well. We're attacking the lag issues because people often say it's the most important thing for them. If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience, that's valuable for us to know, and we'll look at other, less aggressive (or different) options to solve the problems. I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

Now I'm getting this from someone else's post, so I may be putting it all out of context, but I do hve some question.

The supposed "dps lag fix" is the piggybacking. The TWF nerf is a separate issue, correct? Or not?
Or is Eladrin trying to say that we NEED to hit less often to reduce lag for a couple of endgame Raids?
This seems a bit like a scare tactic. Accept this or we'll revert it and go after your next "favored" item, is how it comes off.
So, am I to believe that reducing the collision detection is not really enough? That we need to miss by the original numbers and that the new numbers will require a further tweak.

Really?
"If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience"
Sorry, but that is too funny. Too close to fear-mongering.

Let me spell it out: Our dps is important to us because Turbine MADE it important to us.

Remember Grazing Hits? How that was supposed to help melee that couldn't hit (huh?).
Remember the promise?
With Grazing Hits implemented Turbine could create MOBS with a LOWER to hit and make lower then the outrageous (at the time) need for a 60-70 AC (lol those were the days) and make even a 40-50 AC relevant.
So when did that promise come into fruition? With EPIC? LOL. Thanks for the laugh.
Yes, I know that it's as off-topic as asking for DA to be removed in it's own way.
But the fact is I and several others agreed with the need for Grazing Hits because we were assured that other ideas were going to be implemented soon. Lowering To-hits and Mob "base" damage for starters.
So then Endgame created EPIC and the game went the complete other way from what was initially proposed.

So, do not try to tell me that the lag fix and TWF nerf are related.
Do not try that route, please.
We can have our dps AND your initial lag fix.
If you feel the need to nerf TWF then state that separately. Don't try to scare folks into worrying about their crafted weapons because you may have to "revert the changes" if they prove too unpopular.

So stop intentionally or unintentionally confusing the two. The smoothness of our experience (I assume you mean lag) and a possible TWF nerf are NOT the same.

You can improve our experience by doing your proposed lag fix and getting rid of the useless offhand collision check.

And then when that's proven to do something positive for us, go ahead and start kicking around how to balance the game and the fighting styles.

Turbine isn't even releasing any NEW endgame content (sorry the EPIC option is a joke). So all this will do is take the "tried and true" and make it take longer for all fighting styles.

Sure folks can say "well now they can reduce MOB hit points, etc".
Yes, if Turbine had actually gone through with the promise of lowering MOB to-hits when they introduced Grazing Hits I would be more optomistic.
But TUrbine didn't. They went the other direction. Heck, they raced to the other side. They made AC even LESS useful.
When a change is understood to have a part 2, eventually that part 2 has to be implemented. It can't be forgotten.

So basically, there is no need to revert the "dps fix". Go ahead. Piggyback the offhand to the main hand. It only makes sense.
Then we can enjoy a "smoother play experience".

But don't try to sell the TWF nerf as part of the "fix".
And if our dps is too much for the game then remember why we need that dps. Because Turbine created the MOBS with the outrageous number of hit points and immunities that make that dps necessary.

Sorry for the rant and the wall of text. I would edit it but it is Saturday and I did just get home.

Garth_of_Sarlona

05-30-2010, 01:06 AM

Ok so I am a huge monk fan and I have a couple of questions. At this point in the thread Im pretty sure my post will get lost but here goes nothing.

If I hit my ki strike on my monk on his off hand attack does that mean I have to land the hit first and then chance to proc or, does it mean the off hand just has a chance to proc like it even swung at all and still lose the ki for the strike even if I miss the proc %?

assuming I read Eladrin's post right, if you proc on your main hand then you also proc on any additional (either offhand or double strike) attacks as well. If you're spending Ki then you're guaranteed the ki attack on your main hand and also potentially getting it on offhand and double strike.

Other question is if I hit my ki strike off the main hand and it double strikes does that mean I get twice the dmg from one ki strike for only the cost of doing it once? i.e. hitting TOD and getting a double strike I hit a mob for 1000 points of dmg for only 50ki spent?

Assuming a monk in wind 4 and full twf feats, and assuming I've read Eladrin correctly, and assuming a specific exception to these rules for ToD hasn't been made... then a monk hitting ToD has a 74% chance of hitting for 1000, a 18% chance of hitting for 500, and a 8% chance of hitting for 1500 (avg 950 for 50ki).

Garth

noinfo

05-30-2010, 01:18 AM

I agree with most of what you say here however...

What about dex builds?

Its more realistic that a high dex build will have STWF than min maxed str builds who take the min dex requirement just to fit the feat in. My 40 dex rogue wont have access to this due to the BAB 16 requirement but a 19 dex fighter will have access to it. Unrealistic at best. I believe they will have to change to requirements to please people, and if they do, whats to stop all the clerics, bards, and FvS from jumping on that bandwagon too?

I believe what you say about fighters, and Id toss barbarians in there too. If you bring everyone elses melee too close to theirs, it takes away from fighters and barbarians. If I can build a FvS that can melee 90% as well as a barbarian or fighter, I will take that any day of the week.

Which is why i suggested:

Drop STWF

Currently 20% is the starting point for no 2wf make it 10% + current dex. This reflects the higher dex toons ability to weild 2 weapons effectively. Rogues for the most part have a higher dex and will benefit, Pallies will probably still have to equip dex items for 17+6 -10 or +13 bonus.

Expanding on this:

A good dex rogue with 34 dex with full gtwf would have +24% allow the 4% chance to proc a double strike with off hand. It would be a nice way to boost dex based toons dps a little.

And maybe get rid of grazing hits? :-p

Brother_Solar

05-30-2010, 01:19 AM

Thx mate. Barbarians have very few non-granted feats to play with so I guess STWF won't be an option. Fighters on the other hand have more flexibility with feats.

So basically 20% off all off handed attacks per attack sequence which is for GTWF about 3 or is it 4 attacks minus 20%?
Not 20% damage off, simply 20% fewer off hand attacks.

Currently, with GTWF you get an off hand attack for each main hand attack you make. With the proposed change you will only have an 80% chance of getting an off hand attack when you make a main hand attack.

Hmmm, I'll put it in number terms, that may make it easier.

Currently, let's say your barbarian, while under the effects of the Haste spell, is making 105 main hand attacks and 105 off hand attacks per minute.

With the proposed change, you will still be making your full 105 main hand attacks per minute, but you'll only be making 84 (which is 0.8*105) off hand attacks per minute.

That is going to wind up being slightly less than a 10% DPS loss overall for your TWF characters.

Brother_Solar

05-30-2010, 01:24 AM

Assuming a monk in wind 4 and full twf feats, and assuming I've read Eladrin correctly, and assuming a specific exception to these rules for ToD hasn't been made... then a monk hitting ToD has a 74% chance of hitting for 1000, a 18% chance of hitting for 500, and a 8% chance of hitting for 1500 (avg 950 for 50ki).

I wouldn't get hopes up too high for this just yet. Currently, ToD operates differently than the standard ki strikes as it actually breaks your attack sequence so it will only hit once (rather than allowing it a "hook" attack roll as well). Eladrin seemed non-to-sure about how it would operate with the double strike mechanic.

If they impliment the DS mechanic on the preview server, then I'm sure extensive testing will be done on our end to check it out. Until then, I'm going to maintain my reservation about the possibilities.

Erekose

05-30-2010, 01:26 AM

Not 20% damage off, simply 20% fewer off hand attacks.

Currently, with GTWF you get an off hand attack for each main hand attack you make. With the proposed change you will only have an 80% chance of getting an off hand attack when you make a main hand attack.

Hmmm, I'll put it in number terms, that may make it easier.

Currently, let's say your barbarian, while under the effects of the Haste spell, is making 105 main hand attacks and 105 off hand attacks per minute.

With the proposed change, you will still be making your full 105 main hand attacks per minute, but you'll only be making 84 (which is 0.8*105) off hand attacks per minute.

That is going to wind up being slightly less than a 10% DPS loss overall for your TWF characters.

Gotcha. Great explanation. I do apologize. I have never invested the time to understand the underlying mechanics of the game. I only have a very general understanding. Thanks again.

So to compensate builds who loose 10% they could increase the amount of damage for off hand attacks. It seems that this problem is really about a CPU crunching a long sequence of numbers very frequently, so don't change the string of off hand numbers just make one of the existing variables higher in the off for those affected.

westudi

05-30-2010, 01:27 AM

Most TWF classes/builds (rogue falls into this category too) would be losing 10% DPS. I don't see that as reason enough to throw in the towel, but your opinion may differ.

I admittedly didn't read the whole thread, but I was planning on TRing him to a paladin. It seemed like dual-wielding paladins were going to take a substantial hit. Maybe I misunderstand what I read. At any rate, there is no reason to get too upset until we see these proposed changes in action.

Garth_of_Sarlona

05-30-2010, 01:31 AM

I wouldn't get hopes up too high for this just yet. Currently, ToD operates differently than the standard ki strikes as it actually breaks your attack sequence so it will only hit once (rather than allowing it a "hook" attack roll as well). Eladrin seemed non-to-sure about how it would operate with the double strike mechanic.

If they impliment the DS mechanic on the preview server, then I'm sure extensive testing will be done on our end to check it out. Until then, I'm going to maintain my reservation about the possibilities.

very true, I wouldn't get my hopes up either, but it could potentially be a silver lining to the twf nerf cloud. It's possible that if Eladrin decides that it breaks the combat chain then double strike would still remains on the one handed attack, meaning a 10% chance of double strike 1000 damage jackpot, increasing the average damage of a ToD to 550.

Eladrin this is not the post you're looking for... /waves hands

Garth

Calebro

05-30-2010, 01:32 AM

Souless

05-30-2010, 01:32 AM

?

Because regardless of any other factors, barbarians generally produce more DPS and hatred than any other character class ?

This is totally unrelated to issues of 2HF versus 2WF ...

Based on this answer...my response is remove the barb class from the game...thus eliminating the DPS lag problem....

Perseu

05-30-2010, 01:34 AM

I´m probably the most unqualified person to raise my voice here. I´m not a heavy player, i´m not a build expecialist, even know right how it really will modify the game, but i consider myself the model of the average V.I.P costumer of this company. I play 1 hour or 2 3 or 5 times for week and i expend 15 to 50 dolars every month in this game becouse it is a nostalgic thing to me, this remember me my teenage and now that i´m more than 30 years old i don´t have more time to my D&D fun and even the possiblity of find a group to play. I´m not alone, mostly of the players that i talked untill today have more than 30 and gladly expend this money (and we just don´t expend more becouse your DDOstore is terrible) becouse this game is very mutch like the real thing beside the part of the "role playing" thing. We use this game reading the dialogs in the quests and fell like if we are back at the old times.
Maybe i´m wrong, but i think that you guys are aiming at the other group, that ones are Free to play or just pay the regular V.I.P for some months than buy some packs as "the twelve" and "Amarath" and disturb all you developers and business mans to make their game faster and better.
So... becouse of this free players that have a lot of time to get here and say hell about the lag of this 3 or 4 raids... you guys will do a lot of changes that will transform a really good game, that is very mutch like the real one, in some bizarre monster game; and if you try adapt this no sense doble strike that has no logical explanation to this game just to compensate other thing... well thats is exactly what it will become.
Well, if this is the real thing and this is what this company is looking for i will cancel my account right when this update be release and i see that it´s not like was before, like a real representation of my old table game, and i think there´s more of me out there, that have no time to be here and complain about this, and this is the only reason why i´m here wasting my time and not just waiting to see what it will become and if come to be what i dislike i just turn off the computer and cancel my account.
I really hope that you guys look carfully to your real market share and see who you are listen.

P.S ---> I´m really sorry if ofend anyone and about my poor english, becouse this is not my mother language and i´m tired becouse here is more than 2 in the morning.

Roziel_Longblade

05-30-2010, 01:38 AM

I like the addition of STWF. It forces builders to make hard decisions.

I like that wind stance is now a % double attack.

I like that distinct flavor of double attack vs OH procs.

What I may have missed it how the 2hf feats affect 2h wpns now. Does it still grant glancing blow damage while stationary or something else? Does it do absolutely no glancing damage when moving or 'twitching"?

ripperj

05-30-2010, 01:45 AM

Brother_Solar

05-30-2010, 01:46 AM

So to compensate builds who loose 10% they could increase the amount of damage for off hand attacks. It seems that this problem is really about a CPU crunching a long sequence of numbers very frequently, so don't change the string of off hand numbers just make one of the existing variables higher in the off for those affected.
Well, therein lies the other issue. The developers (or, if not "developers" then at least Eladrin has mentioned it) of the opinion that TWF builds are doing too much damage over THF builds. They seem to believe that a 10% DPS reduction to TWF will put the different build types back to where they should be in relation to eachother.

I haven't done an in depth study between THF vs. TWF with "standard gear" yet, so I don't know where to stand on that issue just now. I'm inclined to give the developers the benefit of the doubt until I've run a number of calculations.

They're aiming for two birds with one stone. It's hard to say how effective the rock will be at hitting each of the birds.

Calebro

05-30-2010, 01:51 AM

They're aiming for two birds with one stone. It's hard to say how effective the rock will be at hitting each of the birds.

They are actually two separate stones, that look like one stone when put together.
The first is a reduction of the number of physics/disatnce checks by automatically assuming the target is in range for the off hand.
The second is a change from Feats checks every attack to a flat percentile chance for the off hand to proc.

Chuutritt

05-30-2010, 01:54 AM

Have to see how it all works out. If the changes result in the cookie cutter FOTM mele types being brought closer to par with straight up level 20 melee types it will be a good thing. If you give up something or similar value to get what your obtaining from splitting classes I see this as a good thing, as it is the game seems to excessively favor certain types of mixed builds. My main concern is whether this might hurt certain pure builds too much and make the FOTM even more preferable. In particular, I'm concerned that pure rogue builds might take a big hit here. Monsters and Exploiters, etc I'm not too worried about as they are already somewhat out of whack.

Angelus_dead

05-30-2010, 01:55 AM

I like the addition of STWF. It forces builders to make hard decisions.
Hard decisions like "Don't be a TWF Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Favored Soul, or Monk". And that's a good thing?

ripperj

05-30-2010, 02:02 AM

Hard decisions like "Don't be a TWF Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Favored Soul, or Monk". And that's a good thing?

as it sits now, non of those classes would be able to get it due to BAB restrictions,

Havenor

05-30-2010, 02:04 AM

I´m probably the most unqualified person to raise my voice here..../snip...becouse this game is very mutch like the real thing beside the part of the "role playing" thing. We use this game reading the dialogs in the quests and fell like if we are back at the old times.
Maybe i´m wrong, but i think that you guys are aiming at the other group, that ones are Free to play or just pay the regular V.I.P for some months than buy some packs as "the twelve" and "Amarath" and disturb all you developers and business mans to make their game faster and better.
So... becouse of this free players that have a lot of time to get here and say hell about the lag of this 3 or 4 raids... you guys will do a lot of changes that will transform a really good game, that is very mutch like the real one, in some bizarre monster game; and if you try adapt this no sense doble strike that has no logical explanation to this game just to compensate other thing... well thats is exactly what it will become.
Well, if this is the real thing and this is what this company is looking for i will cancel my account right when this update be release and i see that it´s not like was before, like a real representation of my old table game, and i think there´s more of me out there, that have no time to be here and complain about this, and this is the only reason why i´m here wasting my time and not just waiting to see what it will become and if come to be what i dislike i just turn off the computer and cancel my account.
I really hope that you guys look carfully to your real market share and see who you are listen.

P.S ---> I´m really sorry if ofend anyone and about my poor english, becouse this is not my mother language and i´m tired becouse here is more than 2 in the morning.

Well, if what you are upset about is this change not resembling PnP D&D, please tell me when any class in D&D, from any edition, was able to attack more than 60 times per minute. My main experience is with AD&D, and i do remember that a round was 1 minute (divided into 10 Segments of 6 seconds each), during which time most classes got to attack once. You were semi-tough if you got to attack twice in the even numbered rounds, and the truly badass got up to 3 attacks a minute with main-hand, and 1 more if TWF for a blinding swingspeed of 1 attack every 15 seconds, but at a significant penalty (unless you were using Traits and were ambidextrous). I know they sped things up in later editions, but still, attacking at faster than 1 second per swing is a far cry from the PnP you are so nostalgic about.

countesscrow

05-30-2010, 02:04 AM

eonfreon

05-30-2010, 02:07 AM

as it sits now, non of those classes would be able to get it due to BAB restrictions,

Yes. And A_D's point is why is that a good thing? Specifically why should it be; either be a full TWF melee OR be a Warchanter, Rogue, Favored Soul, etc. and not be a full TWF melee type?

78mackson

05-30-2010, 02:08 AM

Angelus_dead

05-30-2010, 02:10 AM

as it sits now, non of those classes would be able to get it due to BAB restrictions,
Plus half of the existing TWF characters of those classes couldn't get STWF due to either dexterity or feat slots. To get 17 dex is tough for many guys; but 19 dex is barely possible.

Or a finesse character would hit the dex naturally, but a nonhuman Rogue has 7 feat slots. GTWF, PA, IC, and Finesse already leave just one, which mostly goes for Toughness but can be Skill Focus. If STWF is added (and the BAB requirement isn't prohibitive) then that means all seven of the Rogue's feat slots go to merely the baseline function of "Standard attacks with my weapons". There's zero room for even a sliver of interesting customization, whether for special attack manuevers (Cleave, Sap, Slicing Blow, Hamstring) or defensive and utility bonuses.

A dual-wielding Paladin would be in the same situation, except with khopesh instead of finesse.

Roziel_Longblade

05-30-2010, 02:31 AM

Yes. And A_D's point is why is that a good thing? Specifically why should it be; either be a full TWF melee OR be a Warchanter, Rogue, Favored Soul, etc. and not be a full TWF melee type? It will be tough for any class to muster the feats for STWF except for fighters. Barbs, Pallies, and Rangers will all need to give up something to get it. Bards, Rogues and other 3/4BAB types will need to deal with 80% OH or consider multiclassing. If you already have a pure, 3/4BAB class, 2wf build I can understand the frustration at getting a dps hit.

DDO might consider lowering the BAB for the feat and/or change the TR feat of fighter to +x BAB so 3/4 BAB classes that TR from fighter have a shot at the feat. A tweak like that would only be to make a smooth transition for some builds.

That being said, I dont think that STWF would a build maker or breaker.

Souless

05-30-2010, 02:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It is a separate issue, yes.
BUT
They also thought of a way to further reduce lag slightly by changing the dynamics of exactly how TWF works. So the nerf was because it needed it, as shown by this part of Eldarin's post:

This, to me, makes it obvious that they intended to nerf it anyway at some point.
So the fact that they thought of a way to do that by also reducing lag was just gravy.

This is where I have an issue....Where is the extreem dominance to which u speak of occuring?

It has already been stated in this thread that THF have the advantage at lower levels because the TWF's lack the feats to support the build.....

At shroud levels the twf's catch up (they say in this thread).....

I say maybe......but the extreme dominance over two handed fighting I am just not seeing. 2HF do just fine. Prove me wrong if u can...but I doubt it.....I have seen too many 2HF's kickin tail and taking names...

And ealier I spoke of the ESOS, in the grps that I run with...that is the weapon barbs are grinding for....and posses....so to discount it on some future nerf...just like twitch, is silly. The game is being played with both...what is...is....

I have even heard commented while short-manning the epic dragon.."Oh we have 3 ESOS's in grp...we'll be fine." when asked do we think we have enough dps.

So I take issue with this "extreme dominance"...I have NEVER heard in groups....Oh we have 3 barbs using min2/lit2 khop's we'll be fine.

So i just say: prove that twf dominates 2hf at any stage of the game...

And all this has nothing to do with the lag issue. I say eliminate the necessary physics check to eliminate lag (if that will actually work), I don't care if my off-hand sword hits an already dead/moved/whatever monster....just don't make my grinded for items usless/weakened/minimalized/whatever as it appears the devs are going to do.

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Spectyr/Vampir/Xindao/Richgirl

Ollathir

05-30-2010, 02:34 AM

assuming I read Eladrin's post right, if you proc on your main hand then you also proc on any additional (either offhand or double strike) attacks as well. If you're spending Ki then you're guaranteed the ki attack on your main hand and also potentially getting it on offhand and double strike.

Assuming a monk in wind 4 and full twf feats, and assuming I've read Eladrin correctly, and assuming a specific exception to these rules for ToD hasn't been made... then a monk hitting ToD has a 74% chance of hitting for 1000, a 18% chance of hitting for 500, and a 8% chance of hitting for 1500 (avg 950 for 50ki).

Garth

May be the case, but it seems more likely to me that when this goes live ToD wont proc in the offhand, and will only proc at 10%(or basically next to no) chance with Double Strike bonus.

zorander6

05-30-2010, 02:37 AM

This may be a dumb question but why not offload some of the calculations to the client side rather than server side? Ok, get rid of the extra calc for in range, let the client side roll and then decide to proc the second hand in TWF instead of the server doing so. Just feed the server more compiled numbers rather than having the server do all the work. Granted on slower computers that will cause problems but a few extra calcs on my end won't hurt anything I don't think.....

chubbs99

05-30-2010, 02:37 AM

Not possible given the d20 system. With the values you suggested everyone else with slightly better than "standard" gear will pretty much be auto-hitting. GH alone will cover the gap. Add in bard songs and other buffs and half of the d20 is already covered.

Thats not necessarily true if they do it right. A good minimum to hit by level 20 is what (assuming full DPS class),

BAB 20
Str +7
GH +4
Bard +4-+8 (so, say +6)
Monk Walk on the sun +1
Rage spell +1
Haste +1
+5 Weapon +5

giving you a chain of 45/45/50/55/55. Plus the d20 roll.

What I'm saying is, then increase trash mob AC to around 47. So you have to roll a 3 or better which comes up 90% of the time.

Red name bosses around 52 AC. Meaning unless you crit on your first 2 hits they will miss, and then a 90% chance on your third attack, and 2 auto hits (assuming no 1's). giving an over all. This would also bring usefulness to confirm critical. As the feat power critial alone is +4, this would give you an confirmation roll of 49, meaning a 4 or better is needed to confirm, or 80% chance.

For Purple Raid bosses, AC should be about 57. Again No hits with first 2 swings, but a 60% chance to confirm crit (with Power Crit), a 65% chance to hit with your third attack, and a 90% chance with your last 2 attacks.

As I said, when Raising the Mob AC, an HP reduction should follow suit, This way battle should take just as long, and just as many resources are used keeping the fight the same difficulty. Logically then, there is no real loss in loosing a few hits every attack sequence since those few won't matter in the long run. This should also slow down the long flood of numbers the server has to calculate reducing the chance to see DPS lag.

Merlocke

05-30-2010, 02:50 AM

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

What about the madstone boots 20% attack-speed boost? will that be changed as well?

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game ............ and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.

No one wants to lose attacks are you serious?
Most people I play with they dont want to feel like they are attacking in slow motion.

Every melee loves the haste spell and abilities that stack with haste help to increase attack speed/DPS. Taking these away will make DDO melee combat slow-paced more boring and last longer!

TiranBlade

05-30-2010, 02:52 AM

These are serious questions for Eladrin and the Dev team that I think if they would implement it would cause a shift of opinion in the changes being handled on the matter of altering the fuction of Two Weapon Fighting and have more people join onto the combat system changes, as they would be easier to implement with the changes being made to the system.

1. Verstile Weapon Property: With the changes currently being planned, would it be possible to open up the option of the Verstile Weapon property? This property would allow a player to automatically wield a single One Handed Weapon with the Verstile Weapon property as Two Handed for the purposes of damage as long as they use nothing in thier Off Hand. Examples of Versitle Weapons would include the Bastard Sword and the Dwarven War Axe.

2. Double Weapon Property: With the changes currently being planned, would it be possible to open up the option of the Double Weapon property? This property would allow a player to automatically wield a Double Weapon as a single weapon that fuctions as Two Weapons for the purposes of Two Weapon Fighting. In effect allowing that specific single weapon to proc Off Hand attacks as well as being the Main Hand weapon. A weapon with this property though would not gain 1 and 1/2 times strength modifier on the Main Hand attack. Example of a Double Weapon would be Quarterstaff (Double), an altered version of the Quarterstaff, leaving the original quarterstaff to become Quarterstaff (Two Handed).

3. Finesse Weapon Property: With the introduction of properties, would it be possible to open up the option of the Finesse Weapon proterty? Though redundant of the current fuction of the Rapier, it would allow a clear understanding that a weapon with this property can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. On this note you could introduce this function if you wish to add weapons listed from D&D v.3.5 suppliments, such as the Elven Courtblade Sword from Races of the Wild, you could introduce the One Handed Finesse Weapon and the Two Handed Finesse Weapon Properties, to allow a greater ability to add more content to the game.

***A note on these properties, they do not function as Enchantments but as part of the weapon as normal, similar to the Light Weapon, One Handed Weapon, and Two Handed Weapon discriptions.

These are some ideas if I saw happen, and if I am understanding the way you are recoding the combat system, all of these would be possible aside from the Finesse Weapon property which is already running in the game currently, though without a solid name to signify it.

UPDATE: I have created a Suggestion Forum Thread for discussion of this idea. I would like to hear player opinion of this idea on this thread or in my New Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2994243#post2994243).

Thank you,
TiranBlade

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 02:54 AM

I just don't want to feel like I have to have only a twohanded option for melee.

The amount whereby 2WF specialists will be affected is being somewhat exaggerated by some people in this thread, as far as I can see.

For example, the fact that Fighters will be able to compete with Rangers in the 2WF area is more of a (needed) boost for Fighters than a Rangers nerf. There is no reason at all why Fighters should not be able to attain top-notch 2WF capabilities.

Those who will be most affected are people with a Ranger 6 splash with an otherwise non-mêlée focused character class, which is actually a LOT of people -- so that it's understandable that so many people are overreacting.

vVAnjilaVv

05-30-2010, 02:54 AM

What about the madstone boots 20% attack-speed boost? will that be changed as well?

No one wants to lose attacks are you serious?
Most people I play with they dont want to feel like they are attacking in slow motion.

Every melee loves the haste spell and abilities that stack with haste help to increase attack speed/DPS. Taking these away will make DDO melee combat slow-paced more boring and last longer!

I'm not sure it is going to be anything that drastic......I mean we saw the debacle of how much they slowed attack speed when they brought in grazing hits....that didn't last long at all...neither will this if it's too extreme....at least I hope so.

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 03:03 AM

The consensus is that my Assassin III rogue will lose mutliple vorpals and about 20-25% of her offhand hits, which in my case means fewer radiance blinding hits and fewer auto-crits, which sucks my DPS down even further. For what benefit, again? Unless this is incorrect, I'll take the lag, thanks. I'm a casual p2p player, so I don't know all the stats, calculations, etc. What I'll know is that if I'm not as useful in a party, I'll never be allowed in an epic raid again.

I could TR, but then my two multi-shard GS rapiers would be useless, along with half my gear (rogue-centric stuff like assassin and mechanic set). If I'm going to have to start over, it might as well be with another MMO that hasn't pushed my toon out the door yet. Again, only saying that if this is truly the nerf it sounds like. Someone post some good news? Or maybe something that shows a little more information on the difference for rogues besides lumping us into "other".

In the longer run, that toon will still be viable even in a worst-case scenario, if you can manage to have enough patience to wait for a level 24 cap increase, which should provide you with access to the STWF, if needed.

More short term, people playing Rogues should campaign and demand clarifications that the whole character class won't get itself nerfed for mêlée.

GottDDO

05-30-2010, 03:04 AM

as it sits now, non of those classes would be able to get it due to BAB restrictions,

Why? Because you can't get the best TWF feats? Give me a break... Those classes shouldn't be TWF masters.

Tabun

05-30-2010, 03:04 AM

Again I sit here reading this and its the same ending..... The Devs dont care about the grind we went through to get here its already $$$$ in the bank it is the new $$ they are after. I cant wait to give up all my melees and play only clerics and casters ............................ this is a nerf and yeah dont get too attached to your ESOS you know thats going to get nerfed, they want you to use vorpals and **** to minimize dps lag. epic fail

Tabun

05-30-2010, 03:06 AM

GottDDO

05-30-2010, 03:07 AM

~WickedWendigo

05-30-2010, 03:08 AM

well there goes my idea for big stick, tanking 8 lvls of monk for the windstance II, Im actually half tempted to leave again and go play star wars.

Soleran

05-30-2010, 03:08 AM

Why? Because you can't get the best TWF feats? Give me a break... Those classes shouldn't be TWF masters.

Why wouldn't a centered monk not be a twf master as well, heck especially with handwraps nothing is impeding their attacks.

grodon9999

05-30-2010, 03:13 AM

For example, the fact that Fighters will be able to compete with Rangers in the 2WF area is more of a (needed) boost for Fighters than a Rangers nerf. There is no reason at all why Fighters should not be able to attain top-notch 2WF capabilities.

Fighters do more damage than Rangers in TWF. What are you talking about?

GottDDO

05-30-2010, 03:13 AM

Why wouldn't a centered monk not be a twf master as well, heck especially with handwraps nothing is impeding their attacks.

Monks aren't a full BAB class. The have a lot of bonuses and utility. They should never have equality in melee to Fighters and Barbarians, especially Barbarians.

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 03:15 AM

Based on this answer...my response is remove the barb class from the game...thus eliminating the DPS lag problem....

:)

It takes no longer to process a 500 point crit than a 85 point one, but Harry will unhappier with the 500 damage than the 85 ;)

Soleran

05-30-2010, 03:17 AM

Monks aren't a full BAB class. The have a lot of bonuses and utility. They should never have equality in melee to Fighters and Barbarians, especially Barbarians.

I fail to see how you justify that position simply by stating x and y deserve more when that's already the case today before the changes as far as dps is concerned.

Also used the example of being centered with flurry of blows not with every weapon.

duncangolden

05-30-2010, 03:19 AM

Alright, some thoughts here (over 70-some pages now, yikes. First chance I got to get at this thread long enough to post in it (due to work)).
Number one. The physics check piggybacking makes sense to me. All good there (in theory, heh)

Number two. With my two main characters being a mainly dex based rogue/monk acro AC monkey(using staffs and twf both), and an unarmed finesse monk (light side), I am not liking the direction the twf "adjustment" is taking us. Like many others, the main draws for me to DDO are its fast pace (in combat), and the D&D tie.

Number three. Agro control is messed up enough as it is, currently, and now we are looking at adding Double strike. This is going to really play havoc with intimitanks (but I guess, from recent design directions, the only valuable avoidance is DR). It is also going to play havoc with at least one raid. "Prepping" pillars in VoN 6 is going to become a really chancy endeavour if this goes through.

In all, thanks for soliciting feedback regarding this. My opinion is ONLY make the physics detection change, without adding Double Strike and without "adjusting" TWF.

Just my two cents

toughguyjoe

05-30-2010, 03:20 AM

Monks aren't a full BAB class. The have a lot of bonuses and utility. They should never have equality in melee to Fighters and Barbarians, especially Barbarians.

No one is asking for "Equality" What we're asking for is for some people to step away from PNP in some aspects, as it does directly relate to Video Game mechanics.

In PNP a Monk gets Flurry of blows, and potentially makes many many attacks per round. What better way to simulate that than to allow a Monk to gain Superior Two Weapon Fighting?

Tabun

05-30-2010, 03:20 AM

Again you bring up epics, so I assume you mean ESoS.
Again I tell you that you KNOW it needs a nerf and therefore shouldn't be considered.
And if you'd have read the thread, you'd know from the multiple times that I've said it, the majority of my melee toons are TWFers.

why would an item you HAVE to grind to get and not get one lucky pull to aquire need a nerf? please tell me ??!!!!!!!!!!

Tabun

05-30-2010, 03:23 AM

Tabun

05-30-2010, 03:24 AM

well there goes my idea for big stick, tanking 8 lvls of monk for the windstance II, Im actually half tempted to leave again and go play star wars.

you are not alone

Angelus_dead

05-30-2010, 03:27 AM

well there goes my idea for big stick, tanking 8 lvls of monk for the windstance II, Im actually half tempted to leave again and go play star wars.
Uh, the new changes will make quarterstaff a relatively better choice for someone with monk levels than it is currently. Windstance will provide a doublestrike bonus that benefits the staff fully, but only gives a partial boost to handwraps or kama.

Maybe you're assuming that since you didn't see Windstance II on the list then Windstance II will have a zero bonus. That just wouldn't make sense.

Merlocke

05-30-2010, 03:32 AM

I cant wait to give up all my melees and play only clerics and casters

Yep only one toon to focus TRing on now i guess, rest will be shroud/epic shard drones.

....and yeah dont get too attached to your ESOS you know thats going to get nerfed, they want you to use vorpals and **** to minimize dps lag. epic fail

LMAO :D

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 03:33 AM

Fighters do more damage than Rangers in TWF. What are you talking about?

Currently, this depends somewhat on your character creation and development skills, whereas it will be easier for the more casual gamers to make a competitive 2WF Fighter if the proposed changes are implemented.

toughguyjoe

05-30-2010, 03:41 AM

they want you to use vorpals and **** to minimize dps lag. epic fail

Epic WIN for Handees "Power 5 Pally Brigade"

Chuutritt

05-30-2010, 03:47 AM

No offense, but ever since capstones was raised pure builds are the FOTM... and pure builds are the true min/maxers..

No offense taken, but I disagree. Taking a mix of classes to get much improved armor class via a monk wisdom bonus, to be able to use heal scrolls, have minishot, get extra attack speed, strikes me as a lot more of a min/maxer than some barb, rogue, monk or ftr getting a capstone.

GottDDO

05-30-2010, 03:53 AM

No one is asking for "Equality" What we're asking for is for some people to step away from PNP in some aspects, as it does directly relate to Video Game mechanics.

In PNP a Monk gets Flurry of blows, and potentially makes many many attacks per round. What better way to simulate that than to allow a Monk to gain Superior Two Weapon Fighting?

I'm not talking about equality, and I'm not one of those PnP guys.

In any MMO you play, there's a balance between classes that are pure melee and those with utility/survivability. Fighters and Barbarians should have more melee competence, due to having less utility/survivability.

zealous

05-30-2010, 03:53 AM

Well, let me add on a small suggestion to further fix the twitching problem.

THF grants a glancing blow on the first and second moving attack animation right? Well, just simply remove the glancing blow off that first attack. Then moving isn't nearly so good because you're losing another glancing blow.

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

???

I think is a numbers game... icing on the cake so to say... your frenzied berzerker goes in and hits mob with a 500+ crit and then a little glance on some surrounding mob on a procing glance ... believe was borrow told me a while back people like numbers and wish to see the hits and plenty of them... was when I was *****ing bout BaB and to-hit purposes when most things hit on a two raid buffed ... anyway the glance proc is added gravy and not quite as significant as a proc on a twf build... when you're doing 60 a swing (500+ a crit) with a big axe and the glances are little less than half is shoving in more of the the big numbers are what's attractive on that barb... adding the extra swing in every 2 seconds is what they persue then. So come many mob glance but on one mob twitch.

A "icing" composing some 10-20% of the single target dps of a twitching 2h barb.

Removing glancing blows on moving attack will affect 2h twitch more than a 20% reduction of off-hand blows will affect 2wf.

"It's only small numbers" so exactly as you say, people tend not to notice. ;)

NuclearCoffee

05-30-2010, 03:59 AM

???????

Auran82

05-30-2010, 04:01 AM

What I am seeing here is that we have a flat tire (dps lag)

They propose to use the physics calculation to work out whether you are in range of an enemy from the main hand attack for the offhand attack as well, thus cutting down some of the messier calculations (repair flat tire)

Then, while we're at it, lets completely rip the guts out of the combat system away from a set attack chain (ie - Full round attack in PnP, you know what attacks you get) to some % based system (lets replace the engine while we're at it)

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 04:03 AM

No offense taken, but I disagree. Taking a mix of classes to get much improved armor class via a monk wisdom bonus, to be able to use heal scrolls, have minishot, get extra attack speed, strikes me as a lot more of a min/maxer than some barb, rogue, monk or ftr getting a capstone.

It's two different styles of minimax, that I think of as Munchkin versus Monty Haul :)

It's fairly hard to make a toon that's both Munchkin *and* Monty Haul, but NOT impossible ;)

toughguyjoe

05-30-2010, 04:04 AM

I'm not talking about equality, and I'm not one of those PnP guys.

In any MMO you play, there's a balance between classes that are pure melee and those with utility/survivability. Fighters and Barbarians should have more melee competence, due to having less utility/survivability.

Heres the problem. Monks are pure Melee.

Jendrak

05-30-2010, 04:06 AM

I don't even know where to begin.......

My first reaction was ohhh great here we go again remembering the brillant idea to mess with attack speed which left some TWF build slightly slower and screwed quarterstaff users.

Now after lookng at the tables and trying to read about 60+ posts before I went blind I gotta say I'm still not to impressed.

Now I understand this is gonnabe tricky to fix but since the lag is suffered primarily at high end "espically in high level raids". I'm very wary of a system that does nothing to address the problem at high level aside from a promise that it well help because the system will handle it better. I'm just not seeing how giving the same high end characters the same attacks with a chance of more is going to decrease the lag.

If you are dead set on doing this I would strongly suggest waiting until mod 7 or even 8 to make sure it is working perfectly.

I almost quit completly after the half-assed nerf that left my character playing like he was swimming through concrete. If it happens again because someone makes the decision to rush it through for mod 5 I think I may not be the only one quitting forever.

Basically, just make **** sure it's properly tested and tweaked before you put it in.

Brennie

05-30-2010, 04:06 AM

The amount whereby 2WF specialists will be affected is being somewhat exaggerated by some people in this thread, as far as I can see.

For example, the fact that Fighters will be able to compete with Rangers in the 2WF area is more of a (needed) boost for Fighters than a Rangers nerf. There is no reason at all why Fighters should not be able to attain top-notch 2WF capabilities.

Those who will be most affected are people with a Ranger 6 splash with an otherwise non-mêlée focused character class, which is actually a LOT of people -- so that it's understandable that so many people are overreacting.

Fighters can already compete with rangers for TWF. Rangers get Tempest, and the ability to make extra attacks/attack faster, while fighters have weapon specializations, kensai, fighter capstone, strength enhancements, a truckload of feats, and fighter haste boost to make them attack fast and hit *hard*.

The proposed change allows fighters to not only have all their current bonuses, but also attack faster/more often then a tempest ranger. The problem i have with this is that the main major benefit of the Tempest PrE is having more two-weapon attacks and faster two weapon attacks. With the proposed changes, any character with STWF will have only 5% less double strike chance than a tempest ranger, but just as many offhand attacks. Fighters and paladins will actually have 5% MORE double strike chance with just as many offhand attacks.

For a pure ranger who skips the Tempest line entirely, they need only to invest in a single feat, STWF, to gain the major benefits of Tempest I and II! I don't see how this can be considered anything other than a huge nerf to tempest rangers.

Fighters will likely be the least effected by this proposed change, as they need only one extra feat in teh TWF line to have essentially the same TWF they have now. Lower BaB classes will lose out on an offhand attack, and Tempest Rangers will lose out on an offhand attack *and* 10% attack speed for the benefit of 5% double strike

TiranBlade

05-30-2010, 04:07 AM

Heres the problem. Monks are pure Melee.

Actually monks are skilled-melee with a touch of defensive enhancing class features.

donotdirect1

05-30-2010, 04:17 AM

Think there has been enough discussion yet developers?

General consensus, you've turned the world upside down.

My suggestion remains. If you want the servers to do less work, use more static numbers per attack chain.

We solved PnP time by doing the same thing. Not reducing the number of attacks by basically giving all things displacement from our off hand.

To those of you who are up in arms about superior two weapon fighting not granted to BAB 15 classes, I understand why you would be upset. The fact remains that BAB is a huge score that really is the base for all prestige classes and all of the best feats, that shouldn't change. But also, we shouldn't be gaining a phantom miss on off hand attacks for no real reason, when it's not built into the system that everything we play is.

Monks could use a nifty capstone and prestige enhancements, I'm going to have to agree on that. Especially if STWF is made and they do not qualify. Flurry of blows, while being a good example, isn't really STWF. They should gain something different, and not quite equal. Honestly, if we are keeping haste boosts around, monks should get them the same as fighters.

toughguyjoe

05-30-2010, 04:17 AM

Actually monks are skilled-melee with a touch of defensive enhancing class features.

*edit* I'll come back to this when i'm not having keyboard face. What i wrote hardly sounded english to me once i re-read it

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 04:23 AM

Fighters can already compete with rangers for TWF. Rangers get Tempest, and the ability to make extra attacks/attack faster, while fighters have weapon specializations, kensai, fighter capstone, strength enhancements, a truckload of feats, and fighter haste boost to make them attack fast and hit *hard*.

Well sure, but I'm not thinking about 20th level single-class toons *only* :) I guess I should have clarified that earlier, to avoid confusion.

For a pure ranger who skips the Tempest line entirely, they need only to invest in a single feat, STWF, to gain the major benefits of Tempest I and II! I don't see how this can be considered anything other than a huge nerf to tempest rangers.

Well, I dunno -- High-level Rangers will still be able to purchase the STWF feat, although it remains very unclear how the devs might be planning on making this useful for them. STWF = the current Tempest II is useful for us to visualise what STWF will do, but it does not help us visualise how the attack speeds of a maxed out endgame Tempest Ranger will be affected in real terms, after all testing has been completed.

I can certainly see that STWF is intended to provide fighter types with attack speeds equivalent to Tempest II, but it would seem clear to me that Tempest III and purchasing STWF should provide some sort of attack speed bonuses to endgame Rangers as compared to Tempest II/other STWF.

Fighters will likely be the least effected by this proposed change, as they need only one extra feat in teh TWF line to have essentially the same TWF they have now. Lower BaB classes will lose out on an offhand attack, and Tempest Rangers will lose out on an offhand attack *and* 10% attack speed for the benefit of 5% double strike

I do agree that Fighters will be the least affected, which I'd hoped would have been implicit in my argument here :)

Annosirus

05-30-2010, 04:25 AM

Just another thought on this subject, I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not. First off, I am new to the game so this won't affect me either way as I don't know the difference. However, by reading the posts on this subject two things are clear. First, fix the lag on high end raids. Second, there is a mixed reaction to changing the mechanics for dual wielding characters. For the lag, what about splitting up how the server processes the game? If you split it into two sections, one part governing the lower level content, say lvl 1-14 then have a second part governing the high end content (CD 15-20) to reduce the strain on the server. Then add more memory to each side that should reduce if not eliminate the lag. Now to the new mechanics proposed for dual wielding characters. If the lag is fixed by my above suggestion then don't change anything. If my above suggestion is impossible to make happen or does not fix the problem after being attempted then I say do whatever needs to be done to eliminate the lag. As long as the newly proposed mechanics still offer critical hits and apply all other modifiers to the off-hand weapon that are applied to the main hand weapon. I believe that if you have devoted enough feat and enhancement points into this style than it should be just like wielding with two main hands. Thanks!

Kace

05-30-2010, 04:30 AM

I think the big problem with the Nerf is tied to one of the big allures of this type of game, the thrill of progression.
Having invested so much personal capital in climbing those last few rungs, regression becomes terribly painful, especially when there is no avenue to regain one's previous majesty. I suspect a leading cause of the ragequit.
My thesis is that this is unrelated to the intrinsic value of the product post-bat. This leads to the rub. Any nerf will do great harm to the experience of current nerf-ees. Leaving things unbalanced or using power creep will harm the experience of future easy touches. The obvious solution is to dissemble and give misleading reports to your superiors about a miraculous vapor solution and quietly slip out the back. Vigil Games is hiring:)

Soleran

05-30-2010, 04:42 AM

In any MMO you play, there's a balance between classes that are pure melee and those with utility/survivability. Fighters and Barbarians should have more melee competence, due to having less utility/survivability.

Barbs and Fighters aren't lacking in suvivability at all, last time I checked those are 99% of the time tanking and topping dps, try doing a raid without barbs and fighters and instead insert all monks to replace them and epic fail where you can replace the monk(insert rogue too unless rogues are disabling trap bosses) with the other 2.

The balance between barbs, fighters and monks(insert rogue or ranger here as well) having utility is that nearly all monk utility can be gained with minimal loss with gear changing for situations while the same cannot be said for switching out barb and fighter survivability(hp at 20) and dps vs monks and bosses.

In all MMO that I have played when you start to hit 20 and raid and do harder content all that matters is hp and dps and how to keep that up.

Anyway in as far as the last twf line is concerned they should make sure to keep those things in mind.

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 04:48 AM

As long as the newly proposed mechanics still offer critical hits and apply all other modifiers to the off-hand weapon that are applied to the main hand weapon. I believe that if you have devoted enough feat and enhancement points into this style than it should be just like wielding with two main hands. Thanks!

That's pretty much how things worked in AD&D, with the limitation that either your off-hand weapon needed to be smaller than your mainhand weapon, or you were dual wielding two small weapons like daggers (but not two shortswords for example). Longsword or bastard sword/shortsword combo was popular.

This was changed to the 3rd Edition system ; basically because it was overpowered, particularly when combined with the AD&D version of haste which doubled ALL of your attacks :D

Merlocke

05-30-2010, 05:03 AM

The proposed change allows fighters to not only have all their current bonuses, but also attack faster/more often then a tempest ranger. The problem i have with this is that the main major benefit of the Tempest PrE is having more two-weapon attacks and faster two weapon attacks. With the proposed changes, any character with STWF will have only 5% less double strike chance than a tempest ranger, but just as many offhand attacks. Fighters and paladins will actually have 5% MORE double strike chance with just as many offhand attacks.

For a pure ranger who skips the Tempest line entirely, they need only to invest in a single feat, STWF, to gain the major benefits of Tempest I and II! I don't see how this can be considered anything other than a huge nerf to tempest rangers.

Tempest Rangers will lose out on an offhand attack *and* 10% attack speed for the benefit of 5% double strike

this is what ive been saying...Dodge/Mobility/Spring attk for that? Really?

Consumer

05-30-2010, 05:15 AM

I can certainly see that STWF is intended to provide fighter types with attack speeds equivalent to Tempest II, but it would seem clear to me that Tempest III and purchasing STWF should provide some sort of attack speed bonuses to endgame Rangers as compared to Tempest II/other STWF.

As others have pointed outline not only do Fighters far outstrip ranger TWF DPS, they also get many more attacks per minute due to Fighter haste boost.

Below 20th level this is also true, by level 12 a pure Fighter has up to 3 str from enhancements, 7 30% Haste boosts and power surge along with multiple specialization feats and enhancements, there is no comparison.

As others have said it seems it will be much better for turbine if they do not include the % proc chance for the offhand in this update.

Irinis

05-30-2010, 05:16 AM

In any MMO you play, there's a balance between classes that are pure melee and those with utility/survivability. Fighters and Barbarians should have more melee competence, due to having less utility/survivability.

In epics, 800hp is survivability, and Monk AC "survivability" means nothing. So by your reasoning, Monks should get more DPS.

Or maybe the devs should make EVERY highlevel quest have AOE stuns so people feel they have to take a gimp along just for antistun.

These changes would only be okay if they massively rebalance the entire game. Gut the HP of mobs, especially on epic, etc. Epics are already a borefest.

I suspect the changes may be necessary to bring out something like epic greensteel however. If you make weapons too overpowered the only logical response is to nerf the attacks themselves. That way you can still give the player the illusion that they have amazing DPS only by having the uberest weapons.

bryntian5

05-30-2010, 05:30 AM

No. Lag and nerf bat have be a seperate issue.

Visty

05-30-2010, 05:31 AM

Asymetric_War

05-30-2010, 05:53 AM

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.

<snip>

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

So in other words, Rogues will get screwed hard. As if we weren't screwed badly enough already by our low hit dice, lack of toughness enhancements, lack of feats, and the fact that the traps are so wussy most parties just run straight through them and don't need a rog to disable unless they're after bonus xp. Now you're going to nerf the one thing we're really good at - DPS - in order to give the barbarians yet another advantage.

Sure we attack faster then barbarians or fighters. WE'RE SUPPOSED TOO. That's our payback for being squishier then any other melee class and having a lower BAB! What you propose is to take away all the benefits of that trade while leaving all the costs intact. And that's just plain a crappy deal.

I've played this game since launch and I've given you hundreds of dollars over the years but there's a limit to how much more i'll pay if you continue to nerf my toons. As it is my multiclass builds get no PRE's and miss out on the ToD gear's bonuses that for some bizarre reason only benefits people with 18 or more levels in a single class. I mean seriously, ***? Are you people stupid? Don't you realize that the ability to multiclass and customize toons is the single best thing DDO has going for it and is the ONLY reason that folks like me are still playing after all these years? If I wanted to play a game where I'm stuck in a single class I'd play WoW or EQII or any of the other clones out there. (sorry for the tangent but ****!) Now to add insult to injury you're going to gut my my dps for a negligible reduction in lag!

Go ahead and use a single proximity check, that's fine. you can even give people a chance for a double attack on their main hand - I've got no objections! But keep your hands off my attack speed.

irivan

05-30-2010, 05:57 AM

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

.................................................. .................................
---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk 100% 70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed) 110% 60%
14 Pal/6 Rng 110% 65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk 100% 90%

---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

I have given this a lot of thought, i am not an alarmist, I try really hard not to overreact to Turbines changes, and generally take all things DDO with a grain of salt, the only things that set me off are the conspiracy theorists and boy's that have cried wolf so many times.

That being said, i feel that these changes are unfair and will not accomplish the goals which the DDO team is setting out to achieve.

The reduction of Lag.

My claim is based on the culture of the game. Presently all this will achieve is the re-rolling of a lot of Characters, people will go with the flow and the game based calculation will be back through the roof in no time.

most people will not even buy their Heart of wood either, they will likely spend some dungeon tokens and get one for free, so turbine will not even likely make any money with it either.

To me this will likely end up just being one more giant inconvenience for some players, some will quit, some will adjust, etc.

Considering Turbine is not hurting for membership at the moment and the desire to see a drop in math processes on the server threatening to quit wont change their mind.

So i would like Eladrin to pass my comment on to the upper echelon if you will, i would like them to open their bank account and invest in more resources to reduce lag, meaning more servers, like for example bring back some of the old servers and that we lost during the server merges, thin the worlds out a little more and leave the game engine alone.

I feel like this is being done because Turbine does not want to invest in additional resources and is seeking to work with what resources they have, thus shifting the burden of solving their performance issues on to their customer base.

This may be thought of as sound business, but in the end, it is the kind of thing that leaves some players with a longer term bad taste in their mouth, and a disbelief that a person can go about attempting to invest hours of their time into a character with out having the very basis of it being tampered with by the game host.

That is when hopelessness sets in, and eyes start to set on other gaming horizons.

Me personally i will play this game until something better comes along, but with this kind of mechanical insolvency it wont be long before the competition provides something i want to pay for.

So in the end i am siding against any proposed change to game mechanics, I explicitly ask that you do not do this and leave it as is, and seek greater back end resources to solve your game based performance issues.

Thank you.

Visty

05-30-2010, 05:58 AM

I have given this a lot of thought, i am not an alarmist, I try really hard not to overreact to Turbines changes, and generally take all things DDO with a grain of salt, the only things that set me off are the conspiracy theorists and boy's that have cried wolf so many times.

That being said, i feel that these changes are unfair and will not accomplish the goals which the DDO team is setting out to achieve.

The reduction of Lag.

My claim is based on the culture of the game. Presently all this will achieve is the re-rolling of a lot of Characters, people will go with the flow and the game based calculation will be back through the roof in no time.

most people will not even buy their Heart of wood either, they will likely spend some dungeon tokens and get one for free, so turbine will not even likely make any money with it either.

To me this will likely end up just being one more giant inconvenience for some players, some will quit, some will adjust, etc.

Considering Turbine is not hurting for membership at the moment and the desire to see a drop in math processes on the server threatening to quit wont change their mind.

So i would like Eladrin to pass my comment on to the upper echelon if you will, i would like them to open their bank account and invest in more resources to reduce lag, meaning more servers, like for example bring back some of the old servers and that we lost during the server merges, thin the worlds out a little more and leave the game engine alone.

I feel like this is being done because Turbine does not want to invest in additional resources and is seeking to work with what resources they have, thus shifting the burden of solving their performance issues on to their customer base.

This may be thought of as sound business, but in the end, it is the kind of thing that leaves some players with a longer term bad taste in their mouth, and a disbelief that a person can go about attempting to invest hours of their time into a character with out having the very basis of it being tampered with by the game host.

That is when hopelessness sets in, and eyes start to set on other gaming horizons.

Me personally i will play this game until something better comes along, but with this kind of mechanical insolvency it wont be long before the competition provides something i want to pay for.

So in the end i am siding against any proposed change to game mechanics, I explicitly ask that you do not do this and leave it as is, and seek greater back end resources to solve your game based performance issues.

Thank you.

another of those posts which think the twf nerf is hidden as lag fix

its not

eladrin said its a nerf cause twf is so overpowered

Asymetric_War

05-30-2010, 06:00 AM

irivan

05-30-2010, 06:08 AM

another of those posts which think the twf nerf is hidden as lag fix

its not

eladrin said its a nerf cause twf is so overpowered

Visty i know you are not an idiot, this is exactly what he said, in the very first sentence, where the hell did you contrive that translation from?

Originally Posted by Eladrin
"One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content)"

How am i misinterpreting that?

Krag

05-30-2010, 06:10 AM

eladrin said its a nerf cause twf is so overpowered

He can't be serious, can he?
I mean, it happens too often that THF barbarians are declined because they deal so little damage. And every time leader feels the need for more DPS, they uncheck every class icon but monk, rogue, ranger and paladin. Right?

zealous

05-30-2010, 06:10 AM

currently its twf > thf (twitching) > thf >> s&b
with the change it will be [thf (twitching) >]* twf ~ thf >> s&b

(*as twitching gets a small nerf too it shouldnt be there actually, but i put it there to show the point)

with the changes thf and twf will be alot better balanced then it is currently. thats also why glancing blows while mocing got removed

its not a nerf, its a overall game balance
2wf in general loose less than 10%, glancing blows is in general more than 10% for 2h twitch.

But aye it's not generally a nerf, as long as they don't add sup. 2wf.

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:11 AM

Visty i know you are not an idiot, this is exactly what he said, in the very first sentence, where the hell did you contrive that translation from?

Originally Posted by Eladrin
"One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content)"

How am i misinterpreting that?

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)
emphasis mine

Brannigan

05-30-2010, 06:11 AM

Eladrin,

Aside from TR will you be rushing the 'alignment' change item through for the same time this wil go live for those that do not want to TR but need an alignment change to be able to Greater Ress to alter thier characters that will need to be changed to allow for the TWF changes, example being 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 monk - that wanted to change to 12 fighter / 6 barb / 2 rogue following the changes and needs to lose the lawful to take barb as ranger no longer gives speed etc.

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:12 AM

... as ranger no longer gives speed etc.

ranger still gives speed

irivan

05-30-2010, 06:14 AM

And to continue my reasoning,

Wouldn't reducing the number of attacks over time actually increase the number of calculations it takes to swing and kill the monster?

I mean if the over arching issue here is, total calculations, and there are far to many being performed, isn't the real issue with Monster hit points?

If you lose an attack, trying to kill said monster is still going to require X attacks to get the job done, meaning the same number of dice rolls (math being performed to determine hit and damage, and further additional math being performed to determine the new double strike metric?

This is starting to seem like worse of an idea the more i think about it.

Consumer

05-30-2010, 06:14 AM

currently its twf > thf (twitching) > thf >> s&b
with the change it will be [thf (twitching) >]* twf ~ thf >> s&b

(*as twitching gets a small nerf too it shouldnt be there actually, but i put it there to show the point)

with the changes thf and twf will be alot better balanced then it is currently. thats also why glancing blows while mocing got removed

its not a nerf, its a overall game balance

currently (with epic sos)
twitch->twf->thf AA->s&b

currently (without epic sos and xuum)
twf->twitch->thf AA->s&b

will be (with epic sos)
STWF->twitch->GTWF->THF AA->s&b

will be (wihout epic sos and xuum)
STWF->GTWF->twitch->THF AA->s&b

No glancing blows while moving is not a small nerf, it can be over 50+ DPS loss and will make twitch and AA almost equal.

svinja

05-30-2010, 06:17 AM

estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route.

Well TWF is a lot more "expensive" to build a character for than THF. I sacrificed a lot on my paladin (for example, I started with 12 constitution and 14 strength) to be able to have enough dexterity, and you also absolutely need the feats.

So this means I could have went THF and spent all those points and feats elsewhere? There is absolutely no incentive for any character that doesn't get the feats for free to dual wield if this is true.

irivan

05-30-2010, 06:19 AM

emphasis mine

I guess my assumption about you was wrong.

He clearly says:

"We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them."

You are making the assumption that the statement below means that this is the reason for their proposed change, but it does not say that here. That simply means that they are acknowledging the potential damage to some characters, and making a justification statement saying that if this is done it will result in more balance.

"I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)"

Merlocke

05-30-2010, 06:26 AM

ranger still gives speed

Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

Tempest I attk speed is removed. dodge/mobility/spring attk for what now, lol a doublestrike 5% chance

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:35 AM

Tempest I attk speed is removed. dodge/mobility/spring attk for what now, lol a doublestrike 5% chance

tempest I gives 10% offhand proc

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:36 AM

I guess my assumption about you was wrong.

He clearly says:

"We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them."

You are making the assumption that the statement below means that this is the reason for their proposed change, but it does not say that here. That simply means that they are acknowledging the potential damage to some characters, and making a justification statement saying that if this is done it will result in more balance.

"I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)"

Go back to grade school Grammar.
ok, now go back and read the first 60 pages of this thread, esp the posts from the devs which clearly say that there are 2 seperate things in the OP: fixing lag and nerfing twf

LunaCee

05-30-2010, 06:45 AM

The only concern I have for TWF offhand fix that is incoming... is oddly enough for my wizard. Do I still get auto hit on offhand attacks without the feats against a held target I just put the blue rings of death on or FtS'd?

Honestly that would be the biggest setback for me, having the offhand pick just not even land while smacking down something I've put into auto-critical. Using melee damage to finish something off is rather useful at times...

Verengor

05-30-2010, 06:45 AM

No clue if the following points have been raised (I did not read the full thread):

1) The fighter capstone currently effects TWF, THF and S&B. Will the capstone for THF and S&B fighting stiles be changed to double attack aswell?

2) Many people reported a hidden attack speed increase with the barbarian capstone will this be adjusted or fixed (if not intended)?

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:46 AM

Visty i know you are not an idiot,

I guess my assumption about you was wrong.

I have an idea, Visty, Neg rep me more, and as much as you possibly can in the future as well.

I do not give a rats ***

As we spoke the other day, rep has 0000 meaning to me, in fact neg repping me only gets my posts noticed more quickly by the moderators, and since i have said nothing actually offensive the end result will be in my benefit, my posts being read by the moderators, that is something i want, so rep away.

PS i have been following this whole topic very closely, and i know as any grade schooler would know exactly what was intended when this was posted, and any additionally buts and ifs since then are simple attempts to justify their original intention, which is to help lag.

Get a clue.

noo, you said nothing offensive, you just called me an idiot and in your last post again you said im stupid

Merlocke

05-30-2010, 06:47 AM

tempest I gives 10% offhand proc

But why would you even take tempest PrE when you can just use one feat for STWF.

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:47 AM

No clue if the following points have been raised (I did not read the full thread):

1) The fighter capstone currently effects TWF, THF and S&B. Will the capstone for THF and S&B fighting stiles be changed to double attack aswell?

as its just one capstone and not 3 differants, everyone will get the 10% doublestrike

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:49 AM

But why would you even take tempest PrE when you can just use one feat for STWF.

because tempest I leads to tempest III for 5% doublestrike

also its not sure if stwf is really coming

irivan

05-30-2010, 06:50 AM

noo, you said nothing offensive, you just called me an idiot and in your last post again you said im stupid

If you are assuming that i have insulted you then your are elevating your status with me. If i was going to call you stupid, i would have.

No, this is a self fulfilling prophecy that you have about yourself.

Good luck with that, i cant help you there.

And quit attempting to derail this thread, or i will have to report you for forum abuse.

take your troll attempt some where else.

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:52 AM

If you are assuming that i have insulted you that your are elevating your status with me. If i was going to call you stupid, i would have.

No, this is a self fulfilling prophecy that you have about yourself.

Good luck with that, i cant help you there.

And quit attempting to derail this thread, or i will have to report you for forum abuse.

take your troll attempt some where else.

as you started the derailment i have nothing to fear

and thw twf nerf is still not related to the lag fix

irivan

05-30-2010, 06:57 AM

as you started the derailment i have nothing to fear

and thw twf nerf is still not related to the lag fix

No you are wrong again, i came here with a reply to Eladrin's oringal post, here is your reply to me.

"another of those posts which think the twf nerf is hidden as lag fix

its not

eladrin said its a nerf cause twf is so overpowered"

You came after me waving your banner of misinformation about the original post intention, thus attempting from the start to both derail the thread, and to also insult me by creating the obfuscation that me and everyone else who has correctly interpreted the thread as being one of "them".

No you started this, now own up to it.

However i am suspecting you cannot.

Isolani

05-30-2010, 06:57 AM

Visty

05-30-2010, 06:59 AM

No you are wrong again, i came here with a reply to Eladrin's oringal post, here is your reply to me.

"another of those posts which think the twf nerf is hidden as lag fix

its not

eladrin said its a nerf cause twf is so overpowered"

You came after me waving your banner of misinformation about the original post intention, thus attempting from the start to both derail the thread, and to also insult me by creating the obfuscation that me and everyone else who has correctly interpreted the thread as being one of "them".

No you started this, now own up to it.

However i am suspecting you cannot.

correcting someone =/= derailment

go ahead, report my posts, yours will go too

irivan

05-30-2010, 07:01 AM

correcting someone =/= derailment

go ahead, report my posts, yours will go too

Oh dont worry its already been done.

Dont go around jabbing at people thinking you wont get jabbed back.

Merlocke

05-30-2010, 07:02 AM

So Rgrs are really going to waste 3 feats for 5% chance for a doublestrike and lose:

Tempest I: 10% competence bonus to attk speed
Tempest III: additional free attack in your attack chain

/fail

Visty

05-30-2010, 07:03 AM

So Rgrs are really going to waste 3 feats for 5% chance for a doublestrike and lose:

Tempest I: 10% competence bonus to attk speed
Tempest III: additional free attack in your attack chain

/fail

that is IF stwf come in game and IF the numbers wont change anymore

vVAnjilaVv

05-30-2010, 07:19 AM

HEY!!!!!

WHY DON'T YOU GUYS TAKE A BIG STEP BACK AND CHILL OUT!!!!!

THIS HASN'T EVEN HAPPENED YET.

Constructive critism will be read by the mods.....a 100+ page thread of bashing back and forth will be ignored and then they will release it un-tweaked and we will have to wait an additional amount of days for them to correct it because nobody wants to be civil.

Really...if TURBINE were a superior intelligence species monitoring earthlings to see if they were worth associating with...I think we would be passed over.

*ducks for cover from the neg rep mephits*

Honestly I cannot believe the cube has not been by for this feast by now.....it must be REALLLY hungry if it would want more than this.

Isolani

05-30-2010, 07:22 AM

Didn't read all of this, it's too much...so the gist of it is that I should reroll a pure barbarian, fighter, or caster because anything else is getting hosed?

vVAnjilaVv

05-30-2010, 07:22 AM

Visty

05-30-2010, 07:24 AM

oh and irivan, heres the proof that you are wrong and the devs indeed say its a nerf, page 22 of this thread

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3535/twfnerf.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/twfnerf.jpg/)

could quote it as the part which eladrin quoted wouldnt be in my quote

and anjila, well said
most ppl dont realise that those numbers arent set in stone yet and everything could still change

vVAnjilaVv

05-30-2010, 07:24 AM

Didn't read all of this, it's too much...so the gist of it is that I should reroll a pure barbarian, fighter, or caster because anything else is getting hosed?

The gist of it is really that nothing has happened yet......just roll something and have fun until this takes place.....just be prepared to maybe re-spec or simply don't go all out with it until this is resolved.

--ChaosTheory--

05-30-2010, 07:24 AM

Changing two weapon fighting to require yet another feat sounds like a no go to me. It already takes 4 of a characters 7 base feats to take the full chain which puts it roughly on par with two handed fighting (3), and ranged fighting (4). Moving it up to 5 (~70% of a toons available feats) is far to much.

Borror0

05-30-2010, 07:26 AM

Somebody probably suggested this elsewhere in the 1800+ posts, but if excessive die rolling is part of the lag problem why not just remove a lot of it by making weapon effects do a flat amount of damage instead of having a die roll for each effect. Frost does +3 cold damage, etc. Would remove a ton of calculating, and wouldn't be much change in people's dps if you make the flat number roughly the average of what one of those effects does randomly now.
The problem is not "excessive dice rolls." As Eladrin has already explained (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2990567#post2990567), rolling a dice is about the lightest operation there is. What was taxing on the server was physics detection check, which is why they get cut by more than a half in Eladrin's proposed change.

What you suggest wouldn't reduce lag in any meaningful way.

vVAnjilaVv

05-30-2010, 07:27 AM

and anjila, well said
most ppl dont realise that those numbers arent set in stone yet and everything could still change

TY...and I for one fully admit that I am pretty embarrassed by how I first reacted to this announcement. When I look back on it, Turbine has NEVER made a change so colossal to this game that it made me wanna quit.

They either change it around to be more suitable or they make other options.......you can all cry wolf all you want, but the fact of the matter is right now the only thing in the courtyard is a timid squirrel.

vVAnjilaVv

05-30-2010, 07:30 AM

Maybe...just maybe...and I do not know if this would be feasible of too over-powering......TWF....the first feat will be given free as long as you meet certain pre-reqs in your build.

Or maybe WF will be a granted feat to all classes.

vVAnjilaVv

05-30-2010, 07:32 AM

The problem is not "excessive dice rolls." As Eladrin has already explained (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2990567#post2990567), rolling a dice is about the lightest operation there is. What was taxing on the server was physics detection check, which is why they get cut by more than a half in Eladrin's proposed change.

What you suggest wouldn't reduce lag in any meaningful way.

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

Visty

05-30-2010, 07:33 AM

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

jep

the removal of the physic detection for the offhand is against the lag

the rest is the nerf

Razcar

05-30-2010, 07:41 AM

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.
It's about when you swing a weapon and the system checks if the target is in range of that swing or not. Now it checks for every attack, and for TWF there's double the amount of checks compared to THF. That is kind of silly, since all of the TWF "extra" attacks, the "hooks" are already baked in to the "normal" animations.

So when you swing with a TWF weapon you are doing two attacks for each visible animation (if you have Greater TWF), one visible, one hidden. But the system does a range check for each attack. This takes a lot of resources, especially with the speed that we are attacking.

Borror0

05-30-2010, 07:43 AM

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.
When we attack, the server checks if our weapon physically touches the monster or if it is too far away. That is the calculation that is very taxing. So, what Eladrin wants to do is to reduce the number of times the server has to make that verification. He does that in two ways:
1. Making the off-hand weapon use the same check as the main hand.
2. Replacing attack rate by procs.

The first part reduces the lag because TWF characters do twice less physical detection checks. The main hand will still verify if the monster is hit but then the off-hand weapon will "piggyback" on that verification instead of checking if the mosnter has not moved in the last 0.15 seconds. The second part requires less physical detection checks because the faster we attack, the more checks are require whereas procs don't require checks.

It's the verification that the hit did physically connect that causes lag, because it's a complicated calculation.

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 07:51 AM

So if i get the devs right: we implement this as DA didn´t work?

So we get DA removed sicne it´s not removing lagg? :D

Seriously thou, i know that it was mentioned by Eladrin that they working around new server hardware and implementing this instead.

Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads.

This means that we will not get new server hardware and instead a nerfbat (well not the biggest bat around but still), so i guess the revenue from the influx of new players isn´t enough, and since it´s not a new game whom ever decides where the cash goes does not want to invest in it hardware-wise.

Only the future will tell how (if we get this implemented) it will make the gameplay feel, but i feel like it´s another step away from the original rules (yeah i know this is not D&D), futhermore it will still make a dice roll on the 10% (when it occurs) so it´s not going to be that often but the acctual roll will still be there, i know the collision will be removed but the dice roll will not go away.

Borror0

05-30-2010, 07:54 AM

So if i get the devs right: we implement this as DA didn´t work?
You got it wrong. It's: DA worked; now, let's fix DPS lag.

This means that we will not get new server hardware and instead a nerfbat
No. It means "Instead of changing Green Steel, we're changing how TWF works."

Boromirs

05-30-2010, 07:56 AM

Hrm, this may not get implemented judging from the mass amount of negative feedback. I happen to agree, but again Im open to a change ONLY if it's not too harsh and other weapon styles recieve equal changes to their playstyles as well. All of this should be done in tandem and not in any staggered implementation.

BTW, the second chart IS too harsh since for levels 1-19 you are looking at severe diminished attack power 100% main-hand 60% off-hand. And thats at the higher levels. The majority of the time you're looking at 100% mainhand 40% off hand... way way way too harsh.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 07:58 AM

So in other words, Rogues will get screwed hard. As if we weren't screwed badly enough already by our low hit dice, lack of toughness enhancements, lack of feats, and the fact that the traps are so wussy most parties just run straight through them and don't need a rog to disable unless they're after bonus xp. Now you're going to nerf the one thing we're really good at - DPS - in order to give the barbarians yet another advantage.
You betcha. +1.
The problem source seems to be that our game designers does not seem to understand basic cost - benefit relations. This is how it looks like they reason:

A grinds 24 large Shroud ingredients. B grinds 48 large Shroud ingredients. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
A has 800 hit points. B has 400 hit points. Both should have the same offense.
A needs high STR and CON. B needs high STR, DEX, and CON. Both should have the same offense.
A gets his DPS by right-clicking. B gets his DPS by manoeuvring, Diplomacy, positioning, waiting. Both should have the same offense.

Visty

05-30-2010, 08:00 AM

You betcha. +1.
The problem source seems to me be is that game designers does not seem to understand basic cost - benefit relations. This seems to be how they reason:

A grinds 24 large Shroud ingredients. B grinds 48 large Shroud ingredients. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
A has 800 hit points. B has 400 hit points. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
A needs high STR and CON. B needs high STR, DEX, and CON. Both should have the same offense (DPS).

dont forget that B gets more attacks then A

magnus1

05-30-2010, 08:06 AM

sounds like my already not capable rogue has been shot in the off hand. cant do epic now maybe cant do elite. fewer teams will want me. sounds like a typical nerf! carry on with your well placed game mechanics! makes going free to play even easier. thanks for making the decision easy turbine!

Razcar

05-30-2010, 08:10 AM

dont forget that B gets more attacks then A
That matters when you can e.g. vorpal or stat damage to kill opponents. That is not possible in high-level play, or not possible at all anymore, so that advantage is null and void.

Imnisc

05-30-2010, 08:11 AM

So if i get the devs right: we implement this as DA didn´t work?

So we get DA removed sicne it´s not removing lagg? :D

Seriously thou, i know that it was mentioned by Eladrin that they working around new server hardware and implementing this instead.

This means that we will not get new server hardware and instead a nerfbat (well not the biggest bat around but still), so i guess the revenue from the influx of new players isn´t enough, and since it´s not a new game whom ever decides where the cash goes does not want to invest in it hardware-wise.

Only the future will tell how (if we get this implemented) it will make the gameplay feel, but i feel like it´s another step away from the original rules (yeah i know this is not D&D), futhermore it will still make a dice roll on the 10% (when it occurs) so it´s not going to be that often but the acctual roll will still be there, i know the collision will be removed but the dice roll will not go away.

Maybe you misunderstand, heavy load equipment means weapons with lots of procs (ie greensteel) not server hw.
Apologies if I misunderstood your misunderstanding :D

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 08:11 AM

You got it wrong. It's: DA worked; now, let's fix DPS lag.

No. It means "Instead of changing Green Steel, we're changing how TWF works."

Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment.

So the lagg issues we still have on the server is fixed, since when? I had the usual 11:00-13:00 lagg on thelanis today and did experiance some rubberbanding in house p while lvling my midbe. DA sure fixed lagg :rolleyes:

So this means: we are not changing green steel?

If so, instal new server-hardware and don´t go ahead with this change untill we have tested the new hadrware.

Grecan

05-30-2010, 08:11 AM

The size of this thread is too much for me to read now, i read just a little amount of posts, but tracked all of Eladrin's posts and wanted to make a point regarding this one:

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Edit: There's also many, many posts in this thread that I haven't replied directly to.

I understand by this that the Dev team has a limited time frame to make the changes.

What i simply want to say is, if the time is not enough to make the job done right, try to expand the time frame.

I personally would prefer a job well done in more time than expected, than a work poorly done within the originally estimated time limits.

Think of it like the last server maintenence DDO went through... Making the game work right was impervious to time frames ;)

Scraap

05-30-2010, 08:11 AM

So this is basically all about attack animations as far as the lag issue goes, aside from the intended nerf?...sorry if I am being dense.

From a design perspective, yes and no... to use an analogy:

You point at me from arms length across the room.
In order for the engine to tell whether you poke me with your finger, it has to check with it's physics subsystem whether your arm instead is hitting any of the object in that room, be it a table, chair ect ect.

Furthermore, we're talking predicting behavior over a period of time as well (0.15 seconds, to be exact)

So initially, the engine was having to check over everything in the room twice during a 0.15 second interval.

Removing purely the second raycast (you pointing your finger) makes the assumption that during that 0.15 seconds, you didn't move, I didn't move, and Fred wasn't over for tea (because we all know you don't get between an Illithid and his Earl Gray) and decided to move between us, so for that second strike, without any other checks or probabilities we'd have to assume that everything is nailed down for that 0.15 seconds.

So I can see, to a degree, the need to balance out the over-striking potential with a probability method to account for the notion that you might shift a bit, or I might, or Fred might get the munchies at a bad time. (Which is why previously I'd brought up the notion of checking to see if folks are moving or not during that second swing fake-check). Of course, it would seem that the notion got taken a bit farther than that to a full-on re-balance. Should be interesting to see if any emphasis is put on bringing AC back up to respectable levels if they're going to stick with a damage lowering across the board for Dex builds.

Not an apologist, not terribly happy with it myself. But the logic is fairly simple to follow this end. (Of course, I work with physics systems among other things for a living, so hopefully none of that was unintentionally arcane. if so, that I will apologize for.)

Hutoth

05-30-2010, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Razcar http://cdn.content.turbine.com/sites/forums.ddo.com/images/buttons/red/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2994481#post2994481)
You betcha. +1.

The problem source seems to me be is that game designers does not seem to understand basic cost - benefit relations. This seems to be how they reason:

A grinds 24 large Shroud ingredients. B grinds 48 large Shroud ingredients. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
A has 800 hit points. B has 400 hit points. Both should have the same offense (DPS).
A needs high STR and CON. B needs high STR, DEX, and CON. Both should have the same offense (DPS).

dont forget that B gets more attacks then A

I think that consideration is accounted for as Razcar is talking overall DPS.

Visty

05-30-2010, 08:13 AM

That matters when you can e.g. vorpal or stat damage to kill opponents. That is not possible in high-level play, or not possible at all anymore, so that advantage is null and void.

80% more lightning strikes is null and void?

vorpal and stat damage arent the only effects which will trigger more often then on a thf

Visty

05-30-2010, 08:14 AM

So the lagg issues we still have on the server is fixed, since when? I had the usual 11:00-13:00 lagg on thelanis today and did experiance some rubberbanding in house p while lvling my midbe. DA sure fixed lagg :rolleyes:

So this means: we are not changing green steel?

If so, instal new server-hardware and don´t go ahead with this change untill we have tested the new hadrware.

DA did fix lag
it fixed the pathing lag

what you experiance is either dps lag, server lag, your-machine-sucks lag or one of the other srouces of lag, but NOT pathing lag...DA removed that

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 08:19 AM

DA did fix lag
it fixed the pathing lag

what you experiance is either dps lag, server lag, your-machine-sucks lag or one of the other srouces of lag, but NOT pathing lag...DA removed that

Well not server lagg so let´s fix that, if this do fix it then i am a happy monkey.

As for the others reasons: dps-lagg while duoing midlvl stuff in house p = no, rigg is fine so is my optical line.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 08:28 AM

tempest I gives 10% offhand proc
Come on Vist, you're a smart guy. How the hell can you be defending this? You know that Tempest 1 gave 10% bonus to all attacks. The nerfed Tempest 1 gives 10% bonus to off hand attacks only. Off hand attacks get half the strength bonus. So the bonus goes from a +10% to DPS, to maybe 3-4% bonus to overall DPS.

I'm sad to say I lost respect for you by your defense of these illogical, sweeping and unfair game changes.

Visty

05-30-2010, 08:32 AM

Come on Vist, you're a smart guy. How the hell can you be defending this? You know that Tempest 1 gave 10% bonus to all attacks. The nerfed Tempest 1 gives 10% bonus to off hand attacks only. Off hand attacks get half the strength bonus. So the bonus goes from a +10% to DPS, to maybe 3-4% bonus to overall DPS.

I'm sad to say I lost respect for you by your defense of these illogical, sweeping and unfair game changes.

am i defending them?
maybe
but the post you quoted was just coreccting the post which was quoted in the one you quoted (what a sentance)
he said tempest I has no speed boost anymore which is wrong. 10% more offhand attacks IS a speed boost jjust in a differant way

also these changes arent illogical or unfair once you understand them

it happens to balance twf with thf
sure, they could have boosted thf too but that would just be a powercreep spiral and wouldnt end well

they did the right move with this

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 08:33 AM

Visty i know you are not an idiot, this is exactly what he said, in the very first sentence, where the hell did you contrive that translation from?

Originally Posted by Eladrin
"One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content)"

How am i misinterpreting that?

It has been well established in this thread that lowering the proc rate of the offhand attack from 100% down to whatever is not for the purpose of lag decrease, but for the purpose of lowering the numbers of offhand attacks for any toons except for 2WF specialists.

The same mechanic is being proposed to try and reduce lag AND to reduce the dominance of 2WF in this game.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 08:33 AM

80% more lightning strikes is null and void?

vorpal and stat damage arent the only effects which will trigger more often then on a thfAs Hutoth said above, I meant overall DPS, over time.

But anyway, you think it is all right then that we ditch all our crafted weapons and craft lightening II weapons instead, if we didn't have it before? Please send me the ings Vist, my character names are in my sig.

Visty

05-30-2010, 08:35 AM

As Hutoth said above, I meant overall DPS, over time.

But anyway, you think it is all right then that we ditch all our crafted weapons and craft lightening II weapons instead, if we didn't have it before? Please send me the ings Vist, my character names are in my sig.

sorry, wrong server :)

and lightning strike was just an example
twf also gets 80% more holy, holy burst, shocking burst, and al lthe other effects

Borror0

05-30-2010, 08:35 AM

So the lagg issues we still have on the server is fixed, since when? I had the usual 11:00-13:00 lagg on thelanis today and did experiance some rubberbanding in house p while lvling my midbe. DA sure fixed lagg :rolleyes:
There are many sources of lag. Simply because you address one does not mean you addressed them all.

If so, instal new server-hardware and don´t go ahead with this change untill we have tested the new hadrware.
What a novel idea! I have no idea why I didn't think of that!

Think about it. If new hardware was a realistic approach, don't you think they would have done it?

/snip
I'm pretty sure Razcar was sarcastic.

Visty

05-30-2010, 08:37 AM

I'm pretty sure Razcar was sarcastic.
but he had no sarcasm smily (this one ;))

Razcar

05-30-2010, 08:43 AM

but he had no sarcasm smily (this one ;))Go out and have a jeagerschnitzel and a nice cold weissbier instead mate if you are bored. Because you are just playing devil's advocate and being antagonistic for the hell of it.
Hmm now I got hungry.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 08:48 AM

it happens to balance twf with thf
And they shouldn't be balanced, because they do not cost the same. If you pay 10 000 € for your car you shouldn't expect the same quality and performance as if you pay 20 000 €. (Unless you buy a Skoda ;))

Visty

05-30-2010, 08:52 AM

And they shouldn't be balanced, because they do not cost the same. If you pay 10 000 € for your car you shouldn't expect the same quality and performance as if you pay 20 000 €. (Unless you buy a Skoda ;))

if they would hold true to pnp then thf would be superior to twf already even with the 3 feat cost twf has

so id say you can be lucky that they threw you* a bone :)

*not you as you but you as general twflers which complain here

Boromirs

05-30-2010, 08:59 AM

if they would hold true to pnp then thf would be superior to twf already even with the 3 feat cost twf has

so id say you can be lucky that they threw you* a bone :)

*not you as you but you as general twflers which complain here

That doesn't matter, what matters is that the current system of TWF being superior has already LONG AGO been implemented and many many people have bought/built gear and invested time leveling/RL money etc. to get their characters where they are. To SUDDENLY change the rules of the game on them is not only unfair, but downright sinister.

Visty

05-30-2010, 09:02 AM

That doesn't matter, what matters is that the current system of TWF being superior has already LONG AGO been implemented and many many people have bought/built gear and invested time leveling/RL money etc. to get their characters where they are. To SUDDENLY change the rules of the game on them is not only unfair, but downright sinister.

for how a long time did ppl build batman builds with fullplate and evasion again just to have turbine change evasion?

ppl cried back then, ppl cry now

its the same thing

2 months after its through everyone adopted do it and we all will be fine again

Yazzman

05-30-2010, 09:06 AM

Well, obviously the only solution is to go back to basics and introduce turn-based combat. Yay for attacks of opportunity!

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 09:09 AM

There are many sources of lag. Simply because you address one does not mean you addressed them all.

What a novel idea! I have no idea why I didn't think of that!

Think about it. If new hardware was a realistic approach, don't you think they would have done it?

Well not server lagg so let´s fix that, if this do fix it then i am a happy monkey.

I haven´t seen any feedback on questioning the server-hardware from anyone with the knowlage, so yes untill i see something along thoose lines i will suggest that, and YES i know there are many sources of lagg m8e *sigh* (including bad hardware).

As i said in my posts only time will tell how this will affect the combat, if they implement this, untill then we can only calculate and speculate with the info released.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 09:09 AM

if they would hold true to pnp then thf would be superior to twf already even with the 3 feat cost twf has

so id say you can be lucky that they threw you* a bone :)

*not you as you but you as general twflers which complain here
Don't come dragging with the "D&D clause". Not much, rules-wise, from D&D matter here any more. This is Spart..., sorry, DDO.

The gist of it is this:

estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route.
Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.

Boromirs

05-30-2010, 09:11 AM

for how a long time did ppl build batman builds with fullplate and evasion again just to have turbine change evasion?

ppl cried back then, ppl cry now

its the same thing

2 months after its through everyone adopted do it and we all will be fine again

I really don't think thats true this time around. There is a difference altering one single feat and COMPLETELY gutting the old combat system. This affects everyone across the board that ever uses a weapon. Hence, the 100 pages of crying thats pouring out.

Again, Turbine can do this right but personally if they are thinking about implementing it as is they need to give everyone who is TWF...

1.) FREE one time deconstruction on all their green steel equipment, possible buyback of 2 items from players at full base value. (although I've collected a dozen or more ultra valuable TWF weapons).

2.) FREE complete feat respec.

3.) FREE stat changes.

Now, the Devs believe that their changes are fair and balanced, if so, they have nothing to worry about the above three FREE items ever being used. However, if this is not the case then the player has the option to switch out. Overall, this is the MOST FAIREST option available for people currently.

I mean come on?! You are totally altering your game's combat system (THE central part of a MMO) in mid-life and you expect people to NOT want a character overhaul? Turbine needs to think and be smart, such a drastic change needs drastic compensation.

I hope Eladrin will address this issue after the memorial day weekend is up.

Boromirs

05-30-2010, 09:16 AM

Don't come dragging with the "D&D clause". Not much, rules-wise, from D&D matter here any more. This is Spart..., sorry, DDO.

The gist of it is this:

Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.

I can answer that.

A.) Someone on the dev team has a real liking for THF, it's obvious, I mean look at the monstrosity eSoS.

B.) They see this as killing 2 birds with 1 stone. They realize that yes TWF does cause lag and they can get rid of it by nerfing it (plus the above).

C.) Eladrin or some of the key devs don't really play the game and see this as more a job (check in and check out) and thus is removed from any other considerations...like the extreme investment requirements of TWF relative to THF. (although I seriously doubt this, but hey you never know when dealing with these big companies).

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 09:20 AM

As others have pointed outline not only do Fighters far outstrip ranger TWF DPS, they also get many more attacks per minute due to Fighter haste boost.

Below 20th level this is also true, by level 12 a pure Fighter has up to 3 str from enhancements, 7 30% Haste boosts and power surge along with multiple specialization feats and enhancements, there is no comparison.

hmmmm OK, I've never really built a full STR-based DPS Ranger, and my Kensai 2WF is still too low level, and awaiting the next Update for more level up, so I'll concede that I don't have only 100% full understanding of these questions from an end game perspective, although I have pointed out aready that I'm not just thinking of pure builds, and not just about higher levels.

As others have said it seems it will be much better for turbine if they do not include the % proc chance for the offhand in this update.

... nevertheless, I can't find that I'm against this proposed change. Providing a good balance between the various combat styles is an absolute *imperative* if they are going to prepare this game for the Epic levels...

The biggest negative consequences will be that Rogues will generally speaking lose even more effectiveness, which is btw caused by a deep design problem in D&D, and that some people will feel that they have spent whole packets of Shroud ingredients on bad purchases.

Concerning Rogues, there absolutely HAS to be some effort by the Devs to ensure that they don't get left behind, starting here and now, with these 2WF changes.

I say Rogues, and not Clerics, FvS, Bard -- because these other classes have other powers that make up for loss of DPS, "merely" requiring a shift of focus or something ; Rogues have no such safety net.

Concerning ingredients expenditure, well it just sucks plain and simple, and I'm unhappy about it, even though I will not be personally affected by it (because my only toon that *will* get the 2WF nerf good and proper is also too thick to understand the concepts involved here, and will just carry on regardless).

Visty

05-30-2010, 09:21 AM

Don't come dragging with the "D&D clause". Not much, rules-wise, from D&D matter here any more. This is Spart..., sorry, DDO.

The gist of it is this:

Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.

yes to all but the feat thing. thf has 3 feats too

but some balance should still be there
curently if you want highest dps, its twf or sorcerer
soon we will have the option again if thf or twf

twf still has some advanteges ofer thf like higher ac, reflex, balance and the possibility to more weapon effects
thf has to decide if they want 30% healing amp or ac+4
twf just takes both

Visty

05-30-2010, 09:23 AM

Rogues have no such safety net.

rogues have trap disableing :p

Krag

05-30-2010, 09:23 AM

I say Rogues, and not Clerics, FvS, Bard -- because these other classes have other powers that make up for loss of DPS, "merely" requiring a shift of focus or something ; Rogues have no such safety net.

There is no difference.
Cleric, FvS -> healbots
Bard -> buffbot
Rogue -> trapmonkey

None of them need dps to be useful.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 09:31 AM

twf still has some advanteges ofer thf like higher ac, reflex, balance and the possibility to more weapon effects
thf has to decide if they want 30% healing amp or ac+4
twf just takes bothThat's not entirely true over all, since Epic weapons (and Epic seems to be the way the devs will go with all new content) have two upgrade slots for THF weapons where one handed weapons have one slot.

But for GS, it is true. But it is too weak a bonus to start to outweigh all the costs and disadvantages, and it will be the only bonus. That TWF has 16 items slots when THF has 15 is does not start to balance the additional costs. Especially when you can put many effects on each item slot (like Dragontouched armour).

TWF has to do more damage. Now it does, but not by a very large margin (it used to be, but not anymore after they boosted THF). It should be kept that way, or we will be playing in Crazytown instead of Stormreach.

Scraap

05-30-2010, 09:32 AM

The biggest negative consequences will be that Rogues will generally speaking lose even more effectiveness, which is btw caused by a deep design problem in D&D, and that some people will feel that they have spent whole packets of Shroud ingredients on bad purchases.

Concerning Rogues, there absolutely HAS to be some effort by the Devs to ensure that they don't get left behind, starting here and now, with these 2WF changes.

I say Rogues, and not Clerics, FvS, Bard -- because these other classes have other powers that make up for loss of DPS, "merely" requiring a shift of focus or something ; Rogues have no such safety net.

Really hoping they use the current aoe system as a baseline for trap-laying there, as in cast-on the fly, rather than some of the other mechanic abilities that leave you stuck in place. That would help a bit. (admittedly, that's for the one flavor, though I do seem to recall all rogues getting the feat free at level 4, so even a 2d6 spike damage trap would help a bit there as far as unique, flavored sources of damage. Still Cautiously optimistic on that front, but this from a player that tried pure rogue for months before going into a mixed with arcane preference, so take that for what you will)

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 09:32 AM

There is no difference.
Cleric, FvS -> healbots
Bard -> buffbot
Rogue -> trapmonkey

None of them need dps to be useful.

There are only a mere handful of quests in the game where trapmonkeying is anything like being essential in any way whatsoever, and there are a whole bunch of quests with no traps at all.

And, just as a personal thing : "Cleric, FvS -> healbots" ; you've obviously never grouped with my Clerics :D

Nightorb

05-30-2010, 09:33 AM

for how a long time did ppl build batman builds with fullplate and evasion again just to have turbine change evasion?

ppl cried back then, ppl cry now

its the same thing

2 months after its through everyone adopted do it and we all will be fine again

People cried then because they were spending RL time and money on something they enjoyed playing and i stress REAL LIFE time and money. Now unless you are rich and have an extraordinary monthly disposable income, or have a fantastic job where the pay gives you an extraordinary monthly disposable income, (in which case you wouldnt have time to play anyways), this is how they choose to spend what time and money they have on their own form of escapism (i.e. enjoyment). They have a right to think they are being screwed e.g. i spent 15$ amonth on this game for past 2 yrs and whatever amount in ddo pointts to build a character i like playing and worked hard to level to where it is,.....and now your going to change all i have worked and paid for without benefit to me for all my hard work and effort. Let me put it another way they are paying for the benefit of being screwed, it dosnt sound good to me.

Let me add also im not against changes to the system just these changes. I used to fight with two full weight swords in re-enactment circles and its hard, however they do get more attacks in with less damage the overall effect though is equal sure one hit from a great sword will take you down but so will four hits from two weapons out of 6 attacks.

EDIT: most probably after two months all those who have spent the time and money will have left the game entirely ?
What if most of the ones who left were subscribers ?
If that happened would turbine really want to lose what seems to be 50% of subscribers unhappy with said changes?

The above edit are not my views just questions i have quickly constructed.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 09:33 AM

There is no difference.
Cleric, FvS -> healbots
Bard -> buffbot
Rogue -> trapmonkey

None of them need dps to be useful.
But you are wrong. Everyone wants buffs and heals. No one wants a trap disabler.

Sydril

05-30-2010, 09:35 AM

I have a concern about how these changes will affect two weapon fighting for lower base attack bonus classes.

Right now a rogue, bard or caster with improved two weapon fighting gets an off hand attack in the middle on the animation chain with a +5 bonus to hit. many of these lower bab classes really rely on that hit bonus on epic and higher ac mobs.

reducing that guaranteed attack to a chance to attack lowers these characters ability to hit armor classes in addition to their reduced chance to proc attacks.

These changes will hit these lower bab classes even harder as a result and make a number of currently viable builds practically unplayable.

I'm not sure if this has been addressed elsewhere as this thread has become quite a monster.

WirelessJoe

05-30-2010, 09:36 AM

In the longer run, that toon will still be viable even in a worst-case scenario, if you can manage to have enough patience to wait for a level 24 cap increase, which should provide you with access to the STWF, if needed.

More short term, people playing Rogues should campaign and demand clarifications that the whole character class won't get itself nerfed for mêlée.

Thanks for the reply. Again, it looks like my 10% fewer hits is going to result in a lot more than an 10% reduction in my DPS, as I will be blinding less often and each subsequent hit will be missing the critical modifier.

Here's where I'm really going to show my ignorance: how many people are (for example) doing a shroud run at any one time on each server (or even more generally, how many strikes does a server have to calculate at any one time)? Can't be more than a few hundred (or a few thousand in the second example)...so they're saying that decreasing the calculations on a few hunderd people is going to reduce the lag? How maths-intensive is that? Seems like a couple new proccesors and some RAM could handle the load they're talking about releiving by gimping half the classes. Turbine's got a huge new paying userbase; can't they afford a couple more racks?

Razcar

05-30-2010, 09:37 AM

yes to all but the feat thing. thf has 3 feats too
Two things here - OTWF, and THF is less disadvantaged DPS wise by not taking the full chain compared to TWF.

William_the_Bat

05-30-2010, 09:38 AM

Not having had the time to read 98 pages of this... has anyone actually run the numbers and determined that you can build a top DPS THF that will out-damage the current top damage TWF once the new system is implemented?

I was under the impression that it'll just be closer, but if you spend the 4(!) feats, you'll still come out on top.

Nobody seems to be complaining that zeal or fighter capstone won't be as effective with THF anymore (I'm assuming a double strike will not proc a second glancing blow or an offhand attack, so zeal and the fighter capstone, and the occasional wind staff monk are nerfed as much as TWF in general)

Normally, I'd be annoyed at having my beloved paladin nerfed (I'd get over it, and no, I wouldn't rant on the forums), but the thought of a third exalted smite proc per click if I'm lucky (four if I'm wrong about the doublestrike proccing an offhand attack) really sounds like a lot of fun.

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 09:39 AM

TWF has to do more damage. Now it does, but not by a very large margin (it used to be, but not anymore after they boosted THF). It should be kept that way, or we will be playing in Crazytown instead of Stormreach.

This = +1 sir

And may i add i think they should try to find another way to deal with the "dps" lagg.

Why i say this is the "dps" lagg starts even b4 you start beating on stuff in ToD and Shroud and VoD.
(anyone ever had lagg at the buffing shrine b4 entering VoD? -if not then gz, anyone had lagg inside ToD b4 the fighting starts? -if not gz, anyone had lagg once enterd shroud b4 is´t entrance portal? -if not then gz)

zealous

05-30-2010, 09:48 AM

Don't come dragging with the "D&D clause". Not much, rules-wise, from D&D matter here any more. This is Spart..., sorry, DDO.

The gist of it is this:

Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.
Would you mind showing some numbers supporting your claim that twf and non-twitch 2h has damage numbers extremely close to each other?

If we don't include "the momentary insanity" I just can't get what you are talking about.

Take a look at http://community.codemasters.com/forum/classes-general-discussion-399/393789-few-dps-calculations-shed-some-light-onto-whats-best-mod-10-a.html.

Reduce 2H numbers with 10% due to barb capstone bug.
Reduce every 2H by glancing blow damage/average damage. (>10%)

Reduce 2wf numbers except rangers by 10%.

It's not a nerf to 2wf if they don't add STWF, if they do it's a nerf to rangers and a buff to classes able to spare a feat.

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 09:49 AM

Here's where I'm really going to show my ignorance: how many people are (for example) doing a shroud run at any one time on each server (or even more generally, how many strikes does a server have to calculate at any one time)? Can't be more than a few hundred (or a few thousand in the second example)...so they're saying that decreasing the calculations on a few hunderd people is going to reduce the lag? How maths-intensive is that? Seems like a couple new proccesors and some RAM could handle the load they're talking about releiving by gimping half the classes. Turbine's got a huge new paying userbase; can't they afford a couple more racks?

The Devs have pointed out a few times somewhere way waay WAAAAAAAYYY above up-thread that the DPS lag is not hardware/server related, and I can actually confirm that they are telling the truth about this.

I play in Europe, which has a VERY low population on each server, and we *still* get the DPS lag in the same places as in US, even when there may be fewer than 50 people online at the time.

Technically speaking, at least from what I have understood from Eladrin's explanations, it's a software-related networking issue, where the software is unable to properly synchronise and manage various computer to computer communications in certain scenarios, and especially where 12 client computers and 1 server need to be talking with each other during certain very heavy processing tasks requiring realtime responses from each machine networking into the instances -- for example : 12 people beating Harry up with the maximum amounts of DPS that they can physically manage on their uber-twinked endgame toons and more 2WF than you can shake a stick at.

SquelchHU

05-30-2010, 09:50 AM

Exactly, do it by the book so it has a chance to work as part of the whole system.
The problem was caused by not following the book in the first place, why not do that now?

Every deviation from core rules has caused some issue down the line but the response is always to introduce some new half-assed system on top.

Why not use the ruleset you have paid for? Your role should be implementing not inventing, then when the hordes scream for your blood after nerf X you can just point to the Book ;)

Because using the 3.5 rules, as written would cause infinitely more problems than even the worst of the 'house rules' employed here.

Here's a short review of what would happen if this game straight up used 3.5 rules:

Everyone is a Cleric or a Wizard. Druids too, if they're ever added. People MIGHT take a Sorcerer or a Favored Soul if they're feeling generous.

But all those other classes like ya know, most of em? Worthless.

You thought Mod 4 was bad? Hehehe... wait till you see the whole game like that.

Not that the whole game would last very long, since you'd level cap in one hour (after all, killing 13 mobs/level doesn't take long for a party of 4, the only reason PnP combat is long is manual dice rolls), cap all viable toons in a lazy Sunday, and then not even use the rest of your ten day free trial because you're already done!

But look at it this way! Even though you don't know what you're wishing for, you're still getting it. After all, all of the following are true to PnP:

THF is the only valid melee style.
Rangers have two styles, but they both suck, so no one cares.
Lol Monks. Just. Lol. Monks.

So you should be happy right now you're getting your way... and then you should realize what a terrible idea that is, and stuff that evil genie back in his itty bitty living space.

SquelchHU

05-30-2010, 09:57 AM

for how a long time did ppl build batman builds with fullplate and evasion again just to have turbine change evasion?

ppl cried back then, ppl cry now

its the same thing

2 months after its through everyone adopted do it and we all will be fine again

Batman nerf = change from mithril fullplate to mithril breastplate. Net loss? 1 AC.

There is no comparison (not to mention that even if you had to completely reroll to make that work for some reason, it was a level 10 with no raid loot so not hard to replace).

And you're seriously comparing something that probably won't result in the loss of a level 10 raid loot less character with something that probably will result in the loss of multiple level 20 raid looted and tomed out characters? Really? Those are the same to you?

Consumer

05-30-2010, 09:59 AM

Not having had the time to read 98 pages of this... has anyone actually run the numbers and determined that you can build a top DPS THF that will out-damage the current top damage TWF once the new system is implemented?

Using AO/Yargore or whoevers most recent DPS calculator:

Pure TWF Fighter specced for max DPS including max DPS equipment against trash (5 minutes) -> 589.24

Pure THF Fighter (epic sos) same rules as above -> 677.84

Visty

05-30-2010, 10:03 AM

Batman nerf = change from mithril fullplate to mithril breastplate. Net loss? 1 AC.

There is no comparison (not to mention that even if you had to completely reroll to make that work for some reason, it was a level 10 with no raid loot so not hard to replace).

And you're seriously comparing something that probably won't result in the loss of a level 10 raid loot less character with something that probably will result in the loss of multiple level 20 raid looted and tomed out characters? Really? Those are the same to you?

considering twf looses only about 8% overall dps, yes i am comparing them

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 10:03 AM

The Devs have pointed out a few times somewhere way waay WAAAAAAAYYY above up-thread that the DPS lag is not hardware/server related, and I can actually confirm that they are telling the truth about this.

I play in Europe, which has a VERY low population on each server, and we *still* get the DPS lag in the same places as in US, even when there may be fewer than 50 people online at the time.

Nat, i played on the Eu servers with 15 capped toons and i never had any lagg close to this (with the exception of the subterain, when the VoD+hound raid was released and that was due to the **** teleporting devils), tbh i never lagged in shroud etc the only person i know that did was running on a virgin connection from the outsikrts of hillbilly U.K.

This was with full dps twinkage dualwielders only in grp.

*Disclaimer: This was pre DA and pre ToD+there were more people playing bk then (on keeper)*

WirelessJoe

05-30-2010, 10:04 AM

The Devs have pointed out a few times somewhere way waay WAAAAAAAYYY above up-thread that the DPS lag is not hardware/server related, and I can actually confirm that they are telling the truth about this.

I play in Europe, which has a VERY low population on each server, and we *still* get the DPS lag in the same places as in US, even when there may be fewer than 50 people online at the time.

Technically speaking, at least from what I have understood from Eladrin's explanations, it's a software-related networking issue, where the software is unable to properly synchronise and manage various computer to computer communications in certain scenarios, and especially where 12 client computers and 1 server need to be talking with each other during certain very heavy processing tasks requiring realtime responses from each machine networking into the instances -- for example : 12 people beating Harry up with the maximum amounts of DPS that they can physically manage on their uber-twinked endgame toons and more 2WF than you can shake a stick at.

Thanks again; and that sounds just as bad: fixing a software issue not by fixing the software, but by changing the rules to match what the software can handle.

BurningDownTheHouse

05-30-2010, 10:05 AM

Using AO/Yargore or whoevers most recent DPS calculator:

Pure TWF Fighter specced for max DPS including max DPS equipment against trash (5 minutes) -> 589.24

Pure THF Fighter (epic sos) same rules as above -> 677.84

You do know that epic sos is the exception here, right?
A very small percentage of the THF builds have it.
Greensteel is much more wide spread.

You should use the same version of weapon you used for the TWF calculation in order for the comparison to be valid.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 10:05 AM

I can answer that.

A.) Someone on the dev team has a real liking for THF, it's obvious, I mean look at the monstrosity eSoS.
Nah, I think that all they see and care about is that TWF is stealing more of their CPU cycles than THF is. Even with the proposed changes. That is why they want to nerf it, and want it to become less popular. They do not care about players' grinding or quitting or whatever, that's for the finance department to worry about.

And on a similar note, I would bet a lot of money that not one DDO dev has ever grinded out a tier III weapon in the Shroud on a production server. Not one, ever. I'm sure they care a lot about this game, but in an entirely different way than a player cares about it. Which is perfectly understandable. They made it. We play it.

Garth_of_Sarlona

05-30-2010, 10:06 AM

If someone here actually bothers to do the calculations rather than just complaining (Maybe MrCow can step in here...?) - I think you will find that assuming you are able to take stwf or tempest II, the dps loss is around 10% in total.

This matches the dps loss that barbarians will get when their precious bugged capstone loses the 10% alacrity, and to be honest I would be surprised if Eladrin doesn't nerf the eSoS given the feedback here (and his comment in the OP). Eladrin said in his OP that he believes this will bring twf and thf into line, so I'm sure he's done a lot of calculations (he after all knows all the proc rates of everything, and probably is able to see all the statistics of player items/stats/combat logs and all sorts of useful dev things that - things we mostly have to guess). I'm inclined to believe him.

So really this is just a nerf to general combat dps across all classes (except perhaps the kensai thf, which seems to be getting a relative buff).

The classes that get hit the most are the feat starved ones (e.g. melee fvs/clerics) and those without full bab (e.g. rogues, monks), but even those ones are only being hit with maybe a 15% dps loss.

This change, combined with a 10% reduction in mob hit points would make little to no difference to gameplay, in fact given it took the player community several weeks (months?) to even realize that barbarian capstone was bugged, how many people here would have actually noticed if Eladrin had just thrown this into the game without telling anyone? I bet the cries of 'omg the lag is fixed' (Assuming the lag fix does work!) would drown the cries of 'omg I noticed that 10% of the time I do not get a dice roll for my offhand attack in my combat log that I can't even export/save anyway'.

There seems to be a lot of hysteria in this thread (and I've read every post so far), and the number of decent suggestions dropped off to pretty much 0 around page 40.

Garth

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 10:08 AM

Nat, i played on the Eu servers with 15 capped toons and i never had any lagg close to this

Well, we're getting it now.

You know, thinking about it, it may have cropped up only relatively recently because the European servers are now almost exclusively inhabited by powergamers, contrary to the situation even 4-6 months ago ... :D

WirelessJoe

05-30-2010, 10:09 AM

considering twf looses only about 8% overall dps, yes i am comparing them

I thought the established calculation was 10%, as in 20% in the off hand? In any case, as I posted before, with fewer crits from my off hand, that makes 20% fewer radience blinding opportunities, which means more than a 8-10% reduction in DPS for me due to missing the auto-crit numbers for each subsequent swing. I know that's a more limited subset than what's generally been discussed, but it's the entire "other" in Eladrin's little calculation box.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 10:09 AM

Would you mind showing some numbers supporting your claim that twf and non-twitch 2h has damage numbers extremely close to each other?

If we don't include "the momentary insanity" I just can't get what you are talking about.

Dude, ask Eladrin. It's his quote. That they will become (not are by the way) "Extremely close". And he should know better than our reversed engineered spread sheets do, don't you think?

Consumer

05-30-2010, 10:11 AM

You do know that epic sos is the exception here, right?
A very small percentage of the THF builds have it.
Greensteel is much more wide spread.

You should use the same version of weapon you used for the TWF calculation in order for the comparison to be valid.

I would but the resulting THF numbers are embarrassing.

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 10:12 AM

Well, we're getting it now.

You know, thinking about it, it may have cropped up only relatively recently because the European servers are now almost exclusively inhabited by powergamers, contrary to the situation even 4-6 months ago ... :D

SoZ for ot but: The *real* powergamers either left for the U.S or are gone (all except Blafs and he doesn´t count due to his stubbornes). Last time i talked to Blafs he also mentioned your running your über clr but now trd :rolleyes: powergamers yeah right.

Again soz for OT.

BurningDownTheHouse

05-30-2010, 10:15 AM

I would but the resulting THF numbers are embarrassing.

And that means that all the uproar about this nerf is rather silly.
We all knew that epic sos was the best weapon in the game.

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 10:20 AM

SoZ for ot but: The *real* powergamers either left for the U.S or are gone (all except Blafs and he doesn´t count due to his stubbornes). Last time i talked to Blafs he also mentioned your running your über clr but now trd :rolleyes: powergamers yeah right.

Again soz for OT.

I'm unsurprised at such comments LOL

There are virtually zero casual players and a mere trickle of occasional noobs on the European servers, your sarcasm notwithstanding. <<< This is NOT a good thing, ofc.

The point is that we are currently getting DPS lag on our very unpopulated servers, no matter what your past experiences there may have been like.

Borror0

05-30-2010, 10:20 AM

The gist of it is this:

Do you, Vist, agree that TWF costs more in grinding time and reources than THF, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in stat allocation, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF costs more in feats, yes or no?
Do you agree that TWF also has a built in to-hit disadvantage?

Then why on earth should the "damage output... be extremely close to each other"?
Riddle me that.
The balance between THF and TWF needs a lot of work, and I don't only mean DPS. I mean that, unless several changes are made to different aspect of the combat styles, they cannot be balanced. Like you said, TWF costs a lot more in time and build points from the player.

The problem is that:

TWF cannot neatly superior simply because it requires twice the grind.
The stat allocation penalty is not significant for certain build, for whom TWF would be obviously superior if given greater DPS.
TWF cannot neatly superior simply because it has a to-hit disadvantage. Superior, yes, but the gap cannot be too large.

Eventually, they have to start somewhere. Depending on what Eladrin means by "extremely close" it could be the first step of many toward a semblance of balance. Under the current design, either will be neatly superior to the other.

Angelus_dead

05-30-2010, 10:20 AM

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.
Another problem with the STWF feat that I haven't seen spelled-out yet is how it would be strongly biased in favor of True Reincarnated characters. The presumed dexterity requirement for STWF would make the nerf much bigger for 28 point characters, while leaving 34s or 36s best able to stay close to their current offhand attack ratio.

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

Auran82

05-30-2010, 10:27 AM

Another problem with the STWF feat that I haven't seen spelled-out yet is how it would be strongly biased in favor of True Reincarnated characters. The presumed dexterity requirement for STWF would make the nerf much bigger for 28 point characters, while leaving 34s or 36s best able to stay close to their current offhand attack ratio.

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

Maybe the release of STWF will be coupled with the release of +5 Dex tomes in the store.

If all these changes go ahead, I personally just hope that they get the rest of the balancing right, mob hp etc.

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 10:27 AM

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

The D&D prereq for GTWF is 19 Dex too, but we have 17 for it in DDO.

We can *hope* that they will continue this way for STWF...

Coldin

05-30-2010, 10:29 AM

In regards to STWF, I think it's best that it doesn't get implemented. At least not any time soon.

Rogues, monks, and bards aren't going to be able to take it unless they multiclass. And as explained by someone else earlier, any Tempest Ranger would probably be better off simply getting STWF than paying the heavy cost for Tempest I+II+III.

STWF is probably best left off as a feat to implement should Epic levels ever come.

Consumer

05-30-2010, 10:30 AM

Another problem with the STWF feat that I haven't seen spelled-out yet is how it would be strongly biased in favor of True Reincarnated characters. The presumed dexterity requirement for STWF would make the nerf much bigger for 28 point characters, while leaving 34s or 36s best able to stay close to their current offhand attack ratio.

For a non-finesse character to qualify for GTWF is already pretty tough, and causes a noticeable drop in other stats. Just take a look at a TWF Paladin built with 28 points! The 19 dexterity of STWF would be even harder to reach, and pretty much take it from "expensive" to "prohibitive".

It would make Drow and Elves more popular for DPS toons in some cases though.

Tamerlane

05-30-2010, 10:30 AM

there are a few ideas that are still coming up that i wanted to comment on.

1) some people keep suggesting that they would prefer a slow down in speed rather than a loss in the number of attacks per chain. I want to remind everyone that when haste was changed recently, that is exactly what they tried to do, and so many people complained and threatened to quit that they had to go back and speed things up again. I dont see that as being viable as a solution. it wasnt the first time they tried it.

2) in order for "haste" effects to remain at the same rate of effect, they would need to be applied to the main and offhand at the same rate. a 10% "haste effect" would need 10% mainhand doublestrike and a 10% increase to offhand attacks to maintain an overall 10% increase in attacks. This would allow wind stance to continue to increase attacks for staff wielders, etc.

3) the argument is being made that TWF is being unfairly hit by this change because guaranteed offhand attacks are being traded for chances to attack, thus lowering the overall dps of a style that deserves to be the best because it already costs more to use. Suggesting that something should stay the same just because it "has always been that way" isnt a very solid argument. Also, when the overwhelming majority of people choose TWF as their primary form of dps it should be easy to see that the value (power) of TWF currently is more then its investment (cost in feats) and is comparatively overpowered. additionally it has been stated that changing it from a static chain to a chance to proc offhand attacks (even if that chance where 100%) would help reduce computational overhead because it would be checking a chached number instead of doing a check against your feat list.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 10:32 AM

The classes that get hit the most are the feat starved ones (e.g. melee fvs/clerics) and those without full bab (e.g. rogues, monks), but even those ones are only being hit with maybe a 15% dps loss.
....
There seems to be a lot of hysteria in this thread (and I've read every post so far), and the number of decent suggestions dropped off to pretty much 0 around page 40.
So you think 15% DPS loss, just like that, to a already weak class is nothing? A class that has no other realistic option than to use TWF? Okay.

SquelchHU

05-30-2010, 10:33 AM

considering twf looses only about 8% overall dps, yes i am comparing them

What class 'only' loses 8%? It's not Rangers, for sure.

And given that 8% dps is about 4 times more than you get from basic +2 tome to +4 tome, and people grind for months for those even a 'mere' 8% is still cause for concern (read: nerdrage).

Whereas 1 AC is well... one AC. How much does 1 AC matter in Elite CO6? Answer: Somewhat, but not 8%, and while AC helps AC isn't the primary reason for bringing one. Even if the answer is 'very', losing a level 10 with no raid gear is what? One day off work?

Show me how you get a level 20 decked out in raid gear within one day of character creation and you'll have a valid point. Until then, you are wrong.

Tabun

05-30-2010, 10:34 AM

I bet the cries of 'omg the lag is fixed' (Assuming the lag fix does work!)

Garth

at least you recognize the promises of the past have not worked ................

Galacticus

05-30-2010, 10:37 AM

No, the nerf will not solve lag issues. The nerf was never intended to solve lag issues. This is what some of you are having a hard time understanding after 75 pages.
Ignore the TWF nerf as a means to reduce lag. It is completely separate.

And yes, we are certainly talking about game sweeping changed to many toons, but the changes are needed.
As has been said many times, TWF was unmatched until ESoS showed up. The fact that so many toons now build their entire concept around the idea that they'll one day have it is testament to the fact that it's overpowered.
Remove it from the equation.
That leaves TWF as King again. But it still needs a nerf.

The original idea accomplished that goal. The new numbers, unfortunately, do not.
It's a step in the right direction, but we're far from done.

This change is a good thing, but IMO it isn't good enough. I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I actually preferred the original numbers.

and you don't seem to understand that if you nerf TWF and reduce the DPS output why then would I ever build one again since it cost me 2x ingredients, more feat. to get the most out of it, backpack space, bank space and grind.

You equal TWF and THF it's easier to choose THF if both are the same there's no justification to chose TWF.

zealous

05-30-2010, 10:39 AM

Dude, ask Eladrin. It's his quote. "Extremely close". And he should know better than our reversed engineered spread sheets do, don't you think?
Raz, you're swedish so based on that alone I assume you're not only gawdly handsome but also rather smart. ;)

Do you not find a certain lack of critical evaluation on your part? :)

Does that "extremely close" represent
a average of level 1-20?
ddo population (lvl7ish green f2p)?
theoretical max?
min/maxed 36pt as well as premade path 28pter?
casual/power gamer?
the chars the devs have?

estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

Notice the bolded part?

There are already level ranges/situations etc. where 2wf and 2h are close, there are level/ranges and situations where 2h is better, there are level ranges/situations where 2wf is better. I don't see anything with the propsed changes suggesting that this would change.

And regarding those spreadsheets, I am quite confident that they are accurate enough.

There was a vast gap between no-twitch 2h and twitch 2h/2wf, with the change the gap will be smaller, this is a good thing.

I get it though, I went on a "oh no they've killed half my min/maxed to death exploit every weakness in the system imba killahs before they even made it from paper and into game...again" nerdrage rampage when I first read about the changes.

Juss sayin, keep it cool, think objectively, take a breather and relax. :)

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 10:39 AM

What class 'only' loses 8%? It's not Rangers, for sure.

IIRC, the point has been made by ... someone ... that 20% loss of offhand attacks translates to 10% fewer attacks overall -- readjusted to 8% DPS loss as such, factoring in that you have a slightly higher miss chance and do less damage, especially, with your off-hand weapon. Or something along those lines. I *think* that a pocket calculator may have been involved in the proceedings :)

Visty

05-30-2010, 10:39 AM

I thought the established calculation was 10%, as in 20% in the off hand? In any case, as I posted before, with fewer crits from my off hand, that makes 20% fewer radience blinding opportunities, which means more than a 8-10% reduction in DPS for me due to missing the auto-crit numbers for each subsequent swing. I know that's a more limited subset than what's generally been discussed, but it's the entire "other" in Eladrin's little calculation box.

yeah, rogues get the shaft abit but we never know what turbine will bring out to bring them back

Visty

05-30-2010, 10:42 AM

What class 'only' loses 8%? It's not Rangers, for sure.

And given that 8% dps is about 4 times more than you get from basic +2 tome to +4 tome, and people grind for months for those even a 'mere' 8% is still cause for concern (read: nerdrage).

Whereas 1 AC is well... one AC. How much does 1 AC matter in Elite CO6? Answer: Somewhat, but not 8%, and while AC helps AC isn't the primary reason for bringing one. Even if the answer is 'very', losing a level 10 with no raid gear is what? One day off work?

Show me how you get a level 20 decked out in raid gear within one day of character creation and you'll have a valid point. Until then, you are wrong.

more ac is more ac. for that reason we see all those monk splashs, to reach some ac to avoiding a few hits

and its more then 1 ac anyway, cause you need 17dex for gtw
the thf will have 8 dex
that alone is a differance of +4ac

what you and alot are also missin: not only twf losses some damage, thf does too. and yet you see only 1 person rambling about that
if twf isnt overpowered yet, then why are 80% of the players using it?

Razcar

05-30-2010, 10:46 AM

Juss sayin, keep it cool, think objectively, take a breather and relax. :)What ****es me off is their constant picking on, or total negligence off, rogues. Nerd rage, you betcha, classic MMO class-balance nerd rage at that.

Razcar

05-30-2010, 10:48 AM

yeah, rogues get the shaft abit but we never know what turbine will bring out to bring them back
2d6 fire damage traps, working like the Symbol spells, set in advance with the trap disable animation. Time for rogues to collectively don the Nike's and join Heaven's Gate.

Visty

05-30-2010, 10:49 AM

2d6 fire damage traps, working like the Symbol spells, set in advance with the trap disable animation.

so the balance is still there, why the complaints :D

Jastron

05-30-2010, 10:50 AM

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 10:52 AM

They do mess up Bards aswell wich for me is a BIG issue, i do not like the idea of beeing a backup-healer and a flowersniffer. Unless they change bard songs so it gives full BAB this will be a bad idea for a dualwielding bard.

SquelchHU

05-30-2010, 10:52 AM

IIRC, the point has been made by ... someone ... that 20% loss of offhand attacks translates to 10% fewer attacks overall -- readjusted to 8% DPS loss as such, factoring in that you have a slightly higher miss chance and do less damage, especially, with your off-hand weapon. Or something along those lines. I *think* that a pocket calculator may have been involved in the proceedings :)

Which was probably based on the erroneous assumption you started at 100% when in fact anyone with a speed boost (Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, Rangers, Paladins) start at 110% and Tempests get even higher on the offhand.

So your sarcasm aside, you are probably wrong. But without knowing the exact example it is hard to tell.

more ac is more ac. for that reason we see all those monk splashs, to reach some ac to avoiding a few hits

and its more then 1 ac anyway, cause you need 17dex for gtw
the thf will have 8 dex
that alone is a differance of +4ac

what you and alot are also missin: not only twf losses some damage, thf does too. and yet you see only 1 person rambling about that
if twf isnt overpowered yet, then why are 80% of the players using it?

You see a lot of monk dips for 3 reasons:

1: It gives a lot more than 1 AC. When AC actually mattered, this was meaningful.
2: They're Rangers. Ranger 19 and 20 really doesn't do much for non ranged characters... which is to say it really doesn't do much.
3: It's either that or Fighter 1, and Monk 1 gives more even if you ignore AC.

AC is also an almost boolean stat. There are only 18 numbers that matter. Yes, 18. Not 20. Anything equal to mob to hit + 2 or lower might as well be 0 for all the difference it is making (none) as you will be hit on a 2 regardless. Anything greater than mob to hit + 19 might as well be mob to hit + 20, because the rest isn't helping you to be hit on 20s.

So that's mob to hit + 3-20. Any lower doesn't matter, and any higher doesn't matter. Because of that the fact a THF 'loses' 4 AC is really quite irrelevant, as they've already fallen off the random number generator. The fact they spent those eight build points on Str/Con instead of Dex and those three feats on something else however is extremely relevant.

You don't hear people complaining about THF because... let's see... They lost glancing blows on movement and that's about it? 10% alacrity is identical to 10% double strike when only using one weapon in every way except you swing slower.

And where are these 80% TWFers? Maybe back in the days of WoP, but now? I see a whole lot of two handed weapons and not all of them are black greatswords. Yes, every Ranger and Rogue and Monk will be a TWF, and probably the Paladins too for double smites. But the Fighters, Barbarians, etc that have become really quite common now that Turbine has pushed everyone towards them for several mods? I can't remember the last time I seen a TWF Barb, and TWF Fighters are extremely rare.

Galacticus

05-30-2010, 10:53 AM

I'm not going to get into this again, but barring ESoS (which NEEDS a nerf and thus shouldn't be counted in this scenario), and twitching (which was never intended and is also getting a nerf), TWF is superior to THF in most cases.

Do you even play this game?

Natashaelle

05-30-2010, 10:54 AM

So your sarcasm aside, you are probably wrong.

erm, it's NOT *my* idea, and it feels wrong to me as well.

Don't squelch the messenger :D

Dworkin_of_Amber

05-30-2010, 10:59 AM

Eladrin,

I admit that I have skimmed this incredibly long thread, and not read all of the posts, but something I saw a few times mentioned caught my eye.

If the overall effort is to reduce lag, then what about turning off Combat Feedback by default. Yes, calculations are more CPU intensive than more text transmissions, and I don't know how much overhead all that Combat Feedback really is, but every little bit can help, right? Add under Option --> UI Options, "Turn on Combat Feedback". That has to give at least a 5% reduction in the data transmitted to the average client, and even more so for TWF or FB THF builds.

A few other thoughts:

I agree with many others: Please do NOT add STWF back into the game. I think it complicates things too much, and really hits the 3/4 BAB classes the hardest.

I am not sure what I think on the whole change thing. I know on paper it sounds like it could be really bad, but I will reserve judgement until I actually play it.

I must have missed a post somewhere, but what is this about nerfing THF to not hit while moving? I know that you must have concerns over twitch-THF, but the attack chain is too slow, and yes, many THF characters have more than sufficient +To Hit to not need the progressive attack bonus. And this does not require all Epic and Crafted gear. My current L11 WF FB I am levelling can twitch-THF most of the time, and rarely miss, and if I do start missing, Ok, I stand still. But Aggro control is such a big deal in this game, and with the way that monster AI, Aggro and Intimidate work, THF non-Fighters NEED a way to pull and keep aggro, and sometimes this means attacking on the run. Need a better example, ok, run those new quests inside the Twelve with the Kobolds (can't remember the name, but the one with the Black Dragon)... run it going THF and try NOT moving when fighting Kobolds, and you will see how current implementations of monster AI will require you to move and attack... or go to almost any quest with archers or other ranged mobs. Please don't hit THF with these changes?!?!?

Coldin

05-30-2010, 11:04 AM

A concern of mine, ignoring any possible effects of folks leaving or changing to THF, is let's say they implement this, it does reduce lag, let's be very optimisitc and say by 40% (as not all lag is caused by combat activity)

But as we then take a little longer to complete raids, longer times beating on bosses, and then the server population goes up by another 40%, won't we be in exactly the same spot for lag if not worse, and then Turbine have to consider further changes? Are we just buying a little bit of time here, or will this change end lag caused by DPS even if server populations were to double?

The code needs to be able to scale in some way, say being able to add combat calculation servers for every so many thousands of subscribers. I know we're not supposed to talk about hardware..but what if we got another 500K players due to an ad blitz? Without new hardware could it even be possible to support that? Making short term fixes for lag that have long-term impacts to characters in the game, may not be the best, if they will only help for a short time, and additonal or upgraded hardware is inevitable anyway...just a thought!

That might be an issue if that added 40% of the population were all going and running shrouds.

Just speculation here, but I think the main reason we see DPS lag is because it's a vast amount of information going back and forth between servers and clients all at the same instant. This TWF change seeks to alleviate that problem so the server has less to handle all at once. No matter how powerful the computer is, they can't handle 1000 operations at once, at least not well.

If we just get a simple population increase, then adding more to the server hardware should help compensate. Or better, they'll make new servers for people to play on.

IronClan

05-30-2010, 11:20 AM

Eladrin I am a bit on the fence with the Nerf (back and forth), but I see some valid concerns here that are being lost in the flood of "the sky is falling" posts. You made a statement at one point about TWF becoming "about equal" DPS with THF and that... well...

That can't be the goal...

As a primarily THF focused player even I recognize that TWF sacrifice more for their style, they might need at least one more feat (Oversize TWF) if they need it, and they have higher pre-requisites because Dex for AC is meaningless in high end content (currently)... so the higher Dex for TWF req's is purely there to be able to take the feats and absolutely nothing else... unless the player has rogue skills... or ranged were more attractive.... Or AC worked past mid levels...

Well I realize that many min/max TWF are looking at those with typical min/max tunnel vision (only caring about DPS and nothing else) but as I type them out I realize they are getting something for that higher Dex. Just not what they're focused on/want.

That said perhaps this nerf wouldn't hurt so bad if AC in anything but extreme builds was more relevant after mid levels? (Extreme builds like full tanking DTFP + Leviks tower shield + DoS/Stalwart PrE + Dwarf/Fighter armor enhancements + grindy items, OR AC monk splash wis bonus to AC + high Dex + no armor 8 Armor bracers + uber grindy items)

I know my 6th level Battlecleric is looking at a set of RR +5 Mith full plate with the full on realization that it's the best armor he's going to have for the rest of the game until/Unless I grind for Dragontouched full plate and then that's it... Should a 6th level character be looking at something he can CURRENTLY WEAR as the best or second best armor he will ever put on? This is why S&B is broken, giving up DPS to wear a shield that does you no good past Gianthold...

Galacticus

05-30-2010, 11:22 AM

Since you clearly stated that the lag issue will NOT be fixed by this TWF nerf and you want to balance things out, why not give THF more DPS ability with a free feat. or something to that effect?

Visty

05-30-2010, 11:25 AM

Since you clearly stated that the lag issue will NOT be fixed by this TWF nerf and you want to balance things out, why not give THF more DPS ability with a free feat. or something to that effect?

where would be the difference to the current solution then?
they will both be equal
but the twf nerf doesnt put MORE things onto the server but actually less

thats why just boosting thf isnt reasonable

Calebro

05-30-2010, 11:28 AM

why would an item {eSoS} you HAVE to grind to get and not get one lucky pull to aquire need a nerf? please tell me ??!!!!!!!!!!
I'll say it slowly s o you can follow here.... ready?

Because It Is Overpowered.
I don't care how much grinding it takes to get it, it's too powerful and it needs a nerf.

And to all the people complaining about Tempest I splash nerf, it's not nearly as dramatic as you claim. They still get 2/3 of the TWF feats for free. They still get Bow Str, Rapidshot and Multishot. They still get a dual wielding shield bonus. They still get Favored Enemies.
To claim that any TWFer has to only take a single Feat (which isn't even coming for certain) is ridiculous. Taking Tempest I instead of any other melee class for 6 levels is still Hardly the difference of a single Feat. Period.
Tempest is and has always been front loaded on it's abilities. That's exactly why it was so favored as a splash, because it was TOO powerful compared to other Tier I PrEs.

Now they lose 10% attack speed in the main hand, but keep it in the off hand.
Is that a nerf? Yes.
Was that the point? YES!

To say that all those Tempest I splashes are now gimp is self-centered and short sighted. AS far as I'm concerned, Tempest I is in the same arena as eSoS.

Marcus-Hawkeye

05-30-2010, 11:30 AM

To Eladrin,

I just found this thread, it is extremely long and baby makes it hard to take the time to read it all so if it's been covered I appologize for asking about it again. While I know this is not something people use much, if at all, but does this change affect thrown weapons in the same manner? Specifically, my thrown weapon fighter has the capstone, which is pretty important to have when you are a thrown weapon build. If it does not affect thrown weapons then I've just lost an important enhancement making her even less desirable (which is pretty low on the desirability scale already, understandably).

Also, if it has not been discussed, what about the alacrity items such as the quiver of alacrity and black dragon scale armor?

If these have been answered, could someone point me to the page they are on?

IronClan

05-30-2010, 11:33 AM

But as we then take a little longer to complete raids, longer times beating on bosses, and then the server population goes up by another 40%, won't we be in exactly the same spot for lag if not worse, and then Turbine have to consider further changes?

Reverse this logic... they do nothing and the server population goes up 40% and then people start Lagging fighting everything from Bloodknuckles to the ice flencer in MP (well okay not him he's squishy).

LunaCee

05-30-2010, 11:33 AM

Don't ask for further buffs for THF and the like just so TWF can be left alone. Power creep is a very very evil thing when it hits critical mass. Far better to take the nerf now than to take the emergency nerf later where you don't even get a say.

bradleyforrest

05-30-2010, 11:35 AM

Sometimes there's an opening for an attack and sometimes there isn't.

Isn't that what the attack roll is to determine?

Beethoven

05-30-2010, 11:36 AM

If someone here actually bothers to do the calculations rather than just complaining (Maybe MrCow can step in here...?) - I think you will find that assuming you are able to take stwf or tempest II, the dps loss is around 10% in total.

I believe you are right, Garth, but I don't think stwf should be used as a baseline. I still have strong feelings that while stwf may help on one side it severely breaks things on the other.

/If/ the goal is to bring twf and thf closer in terms of dps it would need to be without stwf for several reasons:
* twf is already a lot more expansive then thf, adding the requirement of yet another feat for them to be comparable (especially one heavy on pre-reqs) creates only the hypothetical possibility of them being close. However, in reality the extra feat and attribute investment required (not to even mention extra grind) would rather create a situation where twf either gets you the attack speed but lack in damage per swing to be comparable or has the damage per swing but lacks the extra number of attacks to make up the difference.
* it'd make the Tempest PrE absurd. 3 feats and 14 APs for 5% double-strike is ridiculous - a deepwood sniper with stwf would be vastly superior to a Tempest (the deepwood sniper would have nearly similar melee capability, 2 more feats to spend, couple more APs and better ranged attacks).

So, I think if we start comparing things we should either:
a) make them using 100% main / 80% offhand for twf (and act as if Eladrin never mentioned stwf) or
b) use stwf numbers but take into account that the tempest pre would require some added benefit to remain feasable or be actually superior (taking into account that toons with the feat will have less feats, less damage to begin with)

Swedishchef

05-30-2010, 11:36 AM

I'll say it slowly s o you can follow here.... ready?

Because It Is Overpowered.
I don't care how much grinding it takes to get it, it's too powerful and it needs a nerf.

And to all the people complaining about Tempest I splash nerf, it's not nearly as dramatic as you claim. They still get 2/3 of the TWF feats for free. They still get Bow Str, Rapidshot and Multishot. They still get a dual wielding shield bonus. They still get Favored Enemies.
To claim that any TWFer has to only take a single Feat (which isn't even coming for certain) is ridiculous. Taking Tempest I instead of any other melee class for 6 levels is still Hardly the difference of a single Feat. Period.
Tempest is and has always been front loaded on it's abilities. That's exactly why it was so favored as a splash, because it was TOO powerful compared to other Tier I PrEs.

Now they lose 10% attack speed in the main hand, but keep it in the off hand.
Is that a nerf? Yes.
Was that the point? YES!

To say that all those Tempest I splashes are now gimp is self-centered and short sighted. AS far as I'm concerned, Tempest I is in the same arena as eSoS.

I do agree with what your are saying to a point but: what about 2wf bards/rogues? Should they be shafted in to: support healing and buffing/trap monkeys just bc the top BAB classes are dualwielding?

I have a solution (i think) you know b4 they added theese **** numbers showing up (crit ex: 155+4+12+9+3) as a **** blur there were no lagg, remove this from game and i bet that it will clear some lagg.
The old days were better in this aspect as we only had the essential number showing up, now with frenzy+brust+crit+blast+holy+force+ what ever it all becomes unreal and blury casuing lagg.

*disclaimer* with green steel and force ritual all was fine at lvl 16 cap, then they started with this *we want ddo to look like a more wow number thing wehn dmging a mobb game* it all went titsup.

Visty

05-30-2010, 11:38 AM

I do agree with what your are saying to a point but: what about 2wf bards/rogues? Should they be shafted in to: support healing and buffing/trap monkeys just bc the top BAB classes are dualwielding?

I have a solution (i think) you know b4 they added theese **** numbers showing up (crit ex: 155+4+12+9+3) as a **** blur there were no lagg, remove this from game and i bet that it will clear some lagg.
The old days were better in this aspect as we only had the essential number showing up, now with frenzy+brust+crit+blast+holy+force+ what ever it all becomes unreal and blury casuing lagg.

*disclaimer* with green steel and force ritual all was fine at lvl 16 cap, then they started with this *we want ddo to look like a more wow number thing wehn dmging a mobb game* it all went titsup.

bards/rogues/meleecasters
all those will loose some of their dps

but you shouldnt forget that they still have spells/songs/traps at their proposel

what do fighters have? or barbs?
you got it, nothing

those classes are about damage
those hybrids dont have their mainfocus on combat, thats why they have a lower bab and wont reach a fighter in power

aax

05-30-2010, 11:40 AM

please please please do NOT decrease attack speed. you guys have reduced attack speed before in the past and it didnt sit well and you guy switched it back. the only good reason for this besides the lag is to make weapons like vorpal less useful.

someone said it best, slow = boring.

lets try to find a way to keep the attack speed while lowering the dps lag issue. for alot of people the fast combat system is what keeps us here.

ChadeLanart

05-30-2010, 11:40 AM

A wise man once told me people are not stupid so you don't take a turd and paint it orange and try to call it a carrot. We built our characters according to the rules . The rules you gave us. We spent hours planning and playing to get them there. In short we lived up to our part. Now you want to change the rules with little to no regard for that. Add to that you have already written the code to do it on the test server. So you are determined to move in that direction. Therefore asking our input is probably more of trying to convince us something is not what you say. If you are going to nerf something have the fortitude to say so. Each player will then decide if they want to stay ( which most of us will as long as the game is not mucked up too much) or if we do not. Those of us that stay are not stupid. I was a supervisor in public safety for more than 30 years. When I had bad news I gave it and my people and I lived though it but I never tryed to tell them it was something it wasn't

Visty

05-30-2010, 11:41 AM

Visty

05-30-2010, 11:42 AM

WirelessJoe

05-30-2010, 11:42 AM

Reverse this logic... they do nothing and the server population goes up 40% and then people start Lagging fighting everything from Bloodknuckles to the ice flencer in MP (well okay not him he's squishy).

Then you add more servers to decrease the pop per server, you don't nerf the people that have been on the server for four years to accomodate new players.

Brother_Solar

05-30-2010, 11:44 AM

Just to run some scenarios to see what kind of difference we're talking about, I picked a level 20 Kensai Fighter with the fighter capstone. This example won't give an accurate representation of other classes, but I had to start somewhere.

Fighter stats
Strength: 46 = 16 Base + 5 Level + 3 Class Enhancements + 6 Gear Enhancement + 3 Exceptional + 3 Tome + 8 Insight (Kensai Power Surge) + 2 Rage Spell
Extra from feats/enhancements (TWF): +8 Dmg, +4 Seeker
Extra from feats/enhancements (THF): +10 Dmg, +8 Seeker, 25% glancing blow effects
Fighter critical accuracy III: +6 to confirm critical rolls
Fighter Capstone
Missing only on a roll of 1
Bloodstone

Weapons (with Kensai 3 critical range)
TWF: 2x Mineral II Kopesh (1d10+5 16-20/x3 Holy, Acid Burst, Acid Blast)
THF: Mineral II Greataxe (3d6+5 18-20/x3 Holy, Acid Burst, Acid Blast)

Hasted Attack Rates (without speed boosts)

Style Attacks per Minute
Current TWF (w/ GTWF) 114 main hand, 114 off hand
Proposed TWF (w/ GTWF) 115 main hand, 84 off hand
Current THF 109
Proposed THF 112
Current THF Twitch 140
Proposed THF Twitch 140

Calculation Results

Style DPS
Current TWF 315.87
Proposed TWF 279.07
Current THF 234.24
Proposed THF 240.69
Current THF Twitch 280.99
Proposed THF Twitch 241.27

So, with the removal of glancing blows while twitching (I actually don't know how twitching works, but I assume, since you don't get glancing blows on your first swing of the attack series, that you won't be getting any glancing blows at all), there will be no point in twitching.

It looks like TWF fighters, due to the loss of the 10% alacrity bonus for off-hand attacks, will be doing 88% of their current DPS. However, this value is still around 16% higher than THF after the changes (which is much closer than the current 35% higher).

Below are the inputs/outputs from my equation. I'd give you the equation itself for documentation purposes, but I think the post is long enough already. Unless you are interested in checking my work, you should probably stop here.

Current Main Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 18
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 114

Calculation Results
X component sum: 45.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 73.47
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 89.65

Average single target DPS = 170.33

Current Off Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 9
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 114

Calculation Results
X component sum: 36.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 60.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 76.6

Average single target DPS = 145.54

Proposed Main Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 18
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 115

Calculation Results
X component sum: 45.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 73.47
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 89.65

Average single target DPS = 171.83

Proposed Off Hand TWF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 9
Weapon Base Damage: 5.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 8
Power Attack Value: 5
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 16-20
Seeker: 10
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 84

Calculation Results
X component sum: 36.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 25%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 60.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 5.5
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7

Total average damage per attack roll = 76.6

Average single target DPS = 107.24

Current THF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 109

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 25.54

Total average damage per attack roll = 128.94

Average single target DPS = 234.24

Proposed THF

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 112

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike with first or second attack: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 25.54

Total average damage per attack roll = 128.94

Average single target DPS = 240.69

Current THF Twitch

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 140

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 17.03

Total average damage per attack roll = 120.43

Average single target DPS = 280.99

Proposed THF Twitch:

Player Inputs
Effective Strength Modifier: 27
Weapon Base Damage: 10.5
Weapon Enhancement: 5
Class Bonuses: 10
Power Attack Value: 10
Bard Song: 4
Weapon Critical Multiplier: 3
Critical Range: 18-20
Seeker: 14
Extra to confirm criticals: 6
Sneak Attack Damage: 0
Glancing Blow Effect Proc Chance: 25%

Enemy Inputs
Enemy Fortification: 0%
Lowest roll required to hit: 1
Enemy Damage Reduction: 0

Applied Effects
Holy (Y: +7)
Acid Burst (Y: +3.5, Z: +11)
Acid Blast (Z: +11, V: +14)

Attack Rate
Attack rolls per minute: 140

Calculation Results
X component sum: 66.5
Y component sum: 10.5
Z component sum: 22
V component sum: 14

Average chance to touch: 95%
Average chance to confirm a critical hit: 100%
Average chance to score a critical hit: 15%
Average chance to score a vorpal strike: 5%

Average damage per attack from X component: 89.43
Average damage per attack from Y component: 9.98
Average damage per attack from Z component: 3.3
Average damage per attack from V component: 0.7
Average damage per attack roll before glancing blows = 103.4
Average damage per attack from glancing blows = 0

Total average damage per attack roll = 103.4

Average single target DPS = 241.27