Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Bracosius]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

Make STWF necessary for TWF to be viable and then count the cash as everyone has to reincarnate to make their character viable.

I could definitly see this happening, seems to fit perfectly with Turbine's current business direction.

[Siskel]

I think one main thing to consider is that this will bring S&B users out of uselessness.

TWF was king. Then ESoS came along. Nowhere did S&B users get enough help to matter. This change would allow that. Dropping TWF a bit brings it closer in line. Fixing ESoS (as we all assume MUST happen) will help as well. But with these changes the disaprities between S&B users will be felt much less, making them viable once again.

Maybe the shield proficiency feats need to add free shield attacks like the proposed change to twf adds a chance to proc your offhand attack.

[difasja]

I've spent three years spec-ing out all my TWF toons, I have five of them. I have do not have the time to re-spec; I'm a VIP and always have been a paying customer. If this happens and my toons are significantly less effective it will make the game less fun for me, and there will be a very good chance that I will leave the game. Think twice about this; strongly urge you to find another way to fix this issue.
Sincerely

[Cortho]

Before you make such sweeping changes to combat styles, you might want to add the ability to deconstruct green steel weapons(to recover used ingredients), I have around 10-11 20th lvl melee types that may need to change from twf to thf depending on how this works out, with nearly 500 shroud runs, dont want to run 500 more to re-equip them again. thx

[Razcar]

For a fighter with TWF, based on PnP, and the feats/enhancements in DDO, it appears I should get 7 attacks per cycle. These are 4 Base, +1 for fighting with two weapons (not the TWF feat), +1 for ITWF, and +1 for GTWF. If you are a Tempest 3, you get one additional attack when dual wielding.

Just to check, I ran my level 18 Tempest into the Vale to find some test subjects. By all appearances, he still only attacks 7 times per cycle.
Forget about PnP when it comes to attack sequence in DDO. We don't have rounds here. You do four attacks in a cycle before you start the animation again. When you use TWF, you add off-hand "hooks" that are not visible in the animation.

With GTWF you add a total of four hooks to the four animated attacks in the chain. With Tempest III you add a total of five hooks. So in an animation sequence on your character you would do four visible animations, but nine actual attacks.

[R0cksteady]

Make STWF necessary for TWF to be viable and then count the cash as everyone has to reincarnate to make their character viable.

I could definitly see this happening, seems to fit perfectly with Turbine's current business direction.

Well, they're already going to have everyone reincarnating their fighters, since they were barely able to match the DPS of a tempest or a barb in the first place. imagine the profits, 4 of those new +5 heart of woods per fighter.

[TiranBlade]

First of all, if I am reading the functions of this correctly between Double Attack and Two Weapon Fighting it turns into a fuction like this.

Four attacks per round normally after a certin base attack amount, then double attack gives you a chance to gain a second attack per attack you would normally get, then you throw in two weapon fighting and you get a proc chance for each of those main attacks so.

So here is my question.

If you have a chance for both Double Attacks and Off Weapon Attacks then it is possible to have up to 16 attacks in a single attack sequence?

If this where ture then it would actually be a boon to melee combatants of all types. Sure there is an initial nerf, but as you gain in ability it become a lot more.
_________________________________________________

Also second, the suggestion to handle the Two Weapon Fighting line with the +15% on all the Two Weapon Feats, I think will make both the players happy and provide a closer to pen and paper set up.



CONSTANTS
B(Base Proc Rate) = 20%
TWF(Two Weapon Fighting) = 15%
ITWF(Improved Two Weapon Fighting) = 15%
GTWF(Greater Two Weapon Fighting) = 15%
RTI(Ranger Tempest I) = 10%
RTII(Ranger Tempest II) = 10%
RTIII(Ranger Tempest III) = 10%
LWS(Lesser Wind Stance) = 5%
WS(Wind Stance) = 5%
GWS(Greater Wind Stance) = 5%
UWS(Ultimate Wind Stance) = 5%

BASE LINE
B + TWF = 35%
B+ TWF + ITWF = 50%
B + TWF + ITWF + GTWF= 65 %

TEMPEST LINE
B + RTI + TWF + ITWF = 60%
B + RTI + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 75%
B + RTI + RTII + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 85%
B + RTI + RTII + RTIII + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 95%

WIND STANCE LINE
B + LWS = 25%
B + LWS + WS = 30%
B + LWS + WS + GWS = 35%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS = 40%
B + LWS + TWF = 40%
B + LWS + WS + TWF = 45%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + TWF = 50%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS + TWF = 55%
B + LWS + TWF + ITWF = 55%
B + LWS + WS + TWF + ITWF = 60%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + TWF + ITWF = 65%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS + TWF + ITWF = 70%
B + LWS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 70%
B + LWS + WS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 75%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 80%
B + LWS + WS + GWS + UWS + TWF + ITWF + GTWF = 85%


If I read my numbers correctly from combining the requirements of class levels you should not be able to exceed 100% at all and it also will allow players to combine the Tempest Line and and the Wind Stance line more effectively.

[Oran_Lathor]

Sorry if this has been asked, but I couldn't bring myself to read all 40 pages:

Does tempest get a chance to double strike (in lieu of its speed boost) in this system, or no?

I realize that tempest is supposed to get a higher off-hand proc rate than other dual wielders.


My gut instinct on reading this is that it nerfs twf too much. I really don't think my tempest 3 is outperforming equally geared frenzied berserkers/kensai 3s so much (if at all).

[Gratch]

Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.


Though you have a point... the post you quoted has 6 points. 6 > 1.

My guild of character builders and I need a better explanation of why it's okay for THF and TWF to be even DPS wise vs. a single target given the points above. i.e., why the nerf? You can enact the physics change without the nerf or at least with less of it than the current ~20% proposed.

And sadly, I would say in most cases your versatility argument only applies to trash. If I'm hitting Velah/Sulo/raid bosses... I mostly just want pure DPS... as most of the versatile fx (like imp destruction, weighted, smantle, etc) either don't apply to raid bosses or don't need to be applied every (other) hit. In fact there's a number of DPS cases where I wish there was no versatility and I had two duplicates of the main hand weapon.

[Phoenix818]

So, when I noticed how many pages this was, I skipped a lot. Forgive me if I say something already said.

Overall, the changes look good. I don't have a problem with TWF having to chance to trigger on each swing. It honestly makes more sense anyway, one of my Dragon magazines around here somewhere says that's how it was GOING to work in Pen and Paper except that it slowed the game down too much. You keep trying to get a MEANINGFUL swing in with the off-hand and only succeed part of the time (more often with better TWF skill).

The only issue I have is with Rogues. Most of my rogues are not damage-optimized anyway, but usually are TWF to have a chance to drop mobs with a single swing, to eliminate sentries and summoners from Stealth before the party closes to melee. It rarely works, but that's sorta the POINT of a rogue having Hide and Move Silent, you know?

My proposed change addresses this from both a mechanics and flavor-oriented point of view:

"True" sneak attacks (against a helpless opponent, against an opponent that is unaware of the rogue) should give a 100% chance to proc the off-hand. You created the opportunity by attacking someone who can't defend themselves.

"Distraction" sneak attacks (flanks, feints, stunned opponents) should increase the proc chance a significant amount (maybe in the range of 15-30%) and possibly give a slight chance to double-strike with the main hand. You get more opportunities when you're trained in the art of attacking distracted opponents. (the slight chance for double-strike could be added to true sneak attacks as well)


This would allow for TWF to be brought closer to THF in overall DPS (it should still lead, barring that ONE SWORD, but won't be so far ahead) while still allowing Rogues to gain an advantage over opponents who can't defeat their stealth or don't pay enough attention to the rogue in their midst.

[sephiroth1084]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.
I don't know if including another feat to take in a chain that is already somewhat costly, and is getting nerfed, is the way to go. For one, paladins are already ending up getting shafted to a degree here, while adding another feat that needs taking just to shore up these changes would hurt them, and rogues, bards and combat-casters (whether arcane or divine), much more so than rangers, monks or fighters.

[Visty]

considering this thread im afraid of going to bed today (germany, 23:52 here)
as once i wake up this thread will have like 50 more pages...and reading all those wont be possible.....aaargh

€dit: lol a whole new page while typing this post and its not even a long one

[Siskel]

Is the DPS lag problem why we are not seeing new raids? If this was fixed, would that open the possibility for more raids being introduced. I am beginning to suspect that the lag issue is holding back content. Could be the reason why we are seeing less new high level content as DPS appears to be an end game issue.

[IronClan]

Oh, you mean the last GOOD edition of D&D :)

Or AD&D :)

[Khelden]

That's untrue. I have plenty of characters that go THF because it's the best DPS option available with limited investment.

For example... when making a favored soul, I long considered going human.. or elf... or warforged. I eventually went warforged in part because their favored weapon, greatsword, was far more useful than a longsword or scimitar without 3 feats spent.

In another example, i had a non-ranger archer. He used falchions because you simply can't afford to take the entire bow line and the entire TWF line.

In short, THF requires nothing in investment, and still gives a good amount of DPS. So THF has those uses.

Secondly, you can invest in THF in the same was as you invest in TWF... and it becomes more powerful. The highest DPS tanks in the game are all currently THF. They tend to have higher HP totals due to less stat investment.

Tone the martyrdom complex down a notch.
Hum, TWF line and THF line are the same. OTWF is not a critical feat at all.

While you are right about the fact that THF provide good amount of DPS with low investment, this also applies to TWF. I could try THF Fighter with a Greensteel GA along with a TWF Fighter with 1 Greensteel Khopesh and 1 Holy Khopesh of PG +3, my TWF would deliver roughly the same DPS than my THF did. Thing is, to improve my THF, weapon-wise, I had to get an epic SoS, while on my TWF, I could just get another GS weapon, which would improve my DPS again.

I'd like you to prove what you are saying, that a fully geared THF will outDPS a fully geared TWF. From all the DPS ladders which have been made and that I looked at, it has never been the case.

However, I wish to keep one of your point here: THF line is less of a must-have than TWF line, and this should not be. THF and TWF lines should BOTH be a must-have for any real melee class [depending on your focus, TWF or THF]. Not having one of these feat line should severely harm the melee capacities of a character.

[donblas]

I wonder what happens in situations like with my Rogue/ranger where the off-hand is 4 better to hit than the main hand?

[Batman78]

everyone grumbling has no idea how its going to affect anything, because it has not been implemented yet. The only thing you have is a vague idea about a nebulous proposition that has yet to be tested or analyzed on any basis other than paper scribbles so far. You've no idea of regulatory confines or dictations from higher executives that may inhibit the overall ability and options present to the developers, developers are not the ones who chose how to implement things in this game, executives are. You want to grumble about better servers and more options? maybe before berating the already hassled consumer relations staff, you should sit down and write a letter to the new WB executive in charge of their digital games? If getting a new server and fixing this easy was an option, I believe they would do it, why would someone take a harder approach than they had to? If this is a difficult thing to do, its because they are being given limited options and yet are STILL trying to make the customers happy, its not because they dislike us or have some vendetta, that's just foolish philosophy.

[Creeper]

Ah yes here we are at the turning point.

All the quantity based moaning on the forums about fixing the lag, and being peeved that nothing is being done about it. Now when something is being done about it, people are gnashing their teeth at it before they have even had a taste. The level of backpedaling is so huge, you could generate a years worth of electricity from the breeze it creates alone.

This issue has been cried about on open forums since the Shroud came out, and the moaning hasnt stopped. And now, we are justifying leaving everything alone because its just 3 raids that are affected?

Wasnt it 3 raids or less that have been affected, like, this entire time? The entire time, 2.5 years or so, up until present, people have been going off their chains on the forums spinning epic tales about how the lag is so hampering the game.

But now, when they propose their fix, its just a mere paltry 3 raids, all because its been determined that the level of DPS calcs that have to be made is a large contributing factor in the lag.

The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them. This is what happens when mountains are made from molehills. The fix is just another mountain.

I am reserving my judgement for when this is tested. Maybe I will have the same opinion as you, and maybe I will not. Until then, heres your nerfed TWF.


But Eladrin has asked that we give feedback, so everyone is. Now, if you want to reserve judgement until it's tested then do it, but don't come on here and belittle those who want to tackle this BEFORE testing, as we have been asked.

This:


The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them.


No, they don't get to lie in them. They/We all want DPS lag to be fixed. They/We all want it to be fixed in a way that isn't game breaking. So no one has made any "bed" yet, let alone slept in it. That is what we are trying to do here. Give feedback on the proposed "lag fix" that we asked for (and don't regret asking for because it needs to be fixed) so that it ends up being a positive change for the game.


What exactly do you know, before a single test has been run on the changes?

Nothing.

Answer: No more or less than you do.

[Razor19]

It is has been said, but let me say it again, you will infuriate a lot of your high level gamers. The very group that has invested the time, MONEY and effort into building those uber toons with all their uber gear causing all the calculation overhead. These are the people who are your core VIP and premium accounts that spend money on getting all the bling to make themselves just that little bit more uber. It seems to me this is just like shooting yourself in the foot and saying it is a good thing.

TWF is better than THF, currently, less so since the THF updates in the last mod, but it also takes a many more resources (feats, stats, AP enhancement) to get there. This change will basically cause all new builds to go THF by default. Why bother with TWF if the best you can hope for is to equal the dps of THF?

I suggest that the easiest way to overcome your lag issues is upgrade your hardware and/or your telecom. I suspect the increased lag is more related to the 1 million new players you have making computation demands on the servers rather than a fault in the game mechanics.

[RobbinB]

So along with the "nerf" coming to TWF how about adding a 10% double-strike chance for a fighter's shield if they have the improved shield bash feat. Maybe even a 5% base chance of shield double strike all the time.

3 cheers for sword-and-board.

(I didn't read through all the replies to this thread, in case someone else already suggested something similar.)

[GottDDO]

I've spent three years spec-ing out all my TWF toons, I have five of them. I have do not have the time to re-spec; I'm a VIP and always have been a paying customer. If this happens and my toons are significantly less effective it will make the game less fun for me, and there will be a very good chance that I will leave the game. Think twice about this; strongly urge you to find another way to fix this issue.
Sincerely

This pretty much sums up what a lot of people are saying.

Do this then, Turbine: Boost all dps except for TWF and increase mob hp.


Of course, that won't work. All the TWFers will be upset that they aren't doing more damage than everyone else and will whine anyway.

[timewalker]

personally i do not like the look of these new changes, its seems to me like its moving away from the *close/real time approximation* to D&D rules to a completely new system. That and this game is known for a great combat system, so i would hate to see that changed.

although personally i have been saying for a while now that melee dmg needs major nurfing....as do mob hp's. hell if you cut melee dmg down but a percentage say 50% *just a number, need to find the right one that works* and then cut monster hp down a equal amount that would bring ranged and spell nuking back into play without really changing melee % damage at all, your eSOS swing would still take the same chunk out of the same monster. the real trick then would be to find the percentage that would not put spell/ranged ahead of melee as they should be a bit behind due to safety of ranged just not the fraction of damage they are now.

i play a TR'ed monk as my main and even though it would hurt me i would like to see a bit of melee nurfing, as long as the overinflated hps are nurfed too. but im not sure i like this idea as a "lag fix"

[Sharzade]

Ah yes here we are at the turning point.

All the quantity based moaning on the forums about fixing the lag, and being peeved that nothing is being done about it. Now when something is being done about it, people are gnashing their teeth at it before they have even had a taste. The level of backpedaling is so huge, you could generate a years worth of electricity from the breeze it creates alone.

This issue has been cried about on open forums since the Shroud came out, and the moaning hasnt stopped. And now, we are justifying leaving everything alone because its just 3 raids that are affected?

Wasnt it 3 raids or less that have been affected, like, this entire time? The entire time, 2.5 years or so, up until present, people have been going off their chains on the forums spinning epic tales about how the lag is so hampering the game.

But now, when they propose their fix, its just a mere paltry 3 raids, all because its been determined that the level of DPS calcs that have to be made is a large contributing factor in the lag.

The people who ranted, moaned, and complained about the lag the entire time made your beds, now you get to lie in them. This is what happens when mountains are made from molehills. The fix is just another mountain.

I am reserving my judgement for when this is tested. Maybe I will have the same opinion as you, and maybe I will not. Until then, heres your nerfed TWF.

http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2000/gu_20000828.jpg

Very nicely put. I agree, all that carrying on about OMG fix the lag has finally paid off - Turbine heard us loud and clear - and we're getting the fix either this way or via a redo of Greensteel. It seems that we can't have our cake and eat it too.

Speaking just for myself, I've got 6 highbie characters that TWF, and I'm okay with adapting to the change.

By fixing lag, we're getting something we asked for. Maybe they'll put a bit of sugar on it somehow, just to help the medicine go down. :) Though fixing lag is pretty sweet!

Sharzei
:p :D

[rosu]

One issue I have is that pure fighters finally got some love with regards to dps. Now with that heavy reduction to the capstone...hey a pure fighter should be able to crank out the numbers so why only a 55% on the off hand. Seems to me that a capstone should grant a little better enhancement. IMO pure fighters should be just under barbs in terms of THF dps should they choose to spec them and should be just under tempests for TWF dps. 30% is a huge difference.

[Calebro]

It's a nice thought, but I don't really see how.

Or are you really thinking that people are going to say... hey, we just had our DPS slashed 22%... may as well make it 45% and gain +7 AC!

Before:
S&B: 110% DPS with capstone
TWF: 220% with capstone

Now:
S&B: 110% with capstone
TWF: 165% with capstone

Yes, I think the DR and AC implications make this viable once again.


Maybe the shield proficiency feats need to add free shield attacks like the proposed change to twf adds a chance to proc your offhand attack.


Add this, and BANG! S&B just became completely viable with these changes, while keeping TWF and THF still good choices.

[Syntax42]

I read the first post and didn't look for any math in further posts.

This suggestion seems like it won't solve anything, other than to nerf two-weapon fighting DPS.

Here is my simplified logic...

Current live TWF swing (assuming Greater TWF feat and player is in range):
1. Check range on main hand.
2. Perform to-hit roll.
3. If miss, skip to 4. Otherwise, calculate damage.
4. In .15 seconds, check range on off-hand.
5. Perform to-hit roll.
6. If miss, end calculations. Otherwise, calculate damage.

Proposed system for TWF:
1. Check range on main hand.
2. Perform to-hit roll.
3. If miss, skip to 4. Otherwise, calculate damage.
4. Perform off-hand roll chance. End calculations if roll failed.
5. Perform to-hit roll.
6. If miss, end calculations. Otherwise, calculate damage.


Looks like about the same amount of processing to me. They just replaced step 4 with a roll chance instead of range check. This proposed system for TWF doesn't seem like it will solve any lag issues.

Instead, try putting some processing tasks on the client instead of the server. For example, range-checks, line-of-sight, and field-of-view could all be done by the clients. This would decrease server load while increasing player enjoyment of the experience, instead of frustrating them with constant misses while chasing a fleeing enemy. Periodic anti-cheat checks done by the server could detect extreme erroneous actions performed by players using disallowed software.

[Angelus_dead]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.
Please don't bring STWF as a feat (unless you add more feat slots too). If it's a class-independent enhancement that uses GTWF as a prereq that could be OK.

Also acceptable would be STWF as a bonus feature of GTWF that activates when you have BAB 16 and either Dex 19 or Ranger16. (Although you'd have to grant a free Heart of Wood to non-ranger TWF characters whose dex is insufficient).

Forcing TWF characters to devote yet another feat slot to adequate use of their weapon style is boring and removes opportunities for interesting customizations.

[Shiler]

I dont understand tbh.

As for now its quite easy.
You have normal attack speed 100%.

If you have no TWF feats and you have equiped two weapons you have standard penalties to attack, and you attack speed is 100%.
if you other TWF feats your attack speed remains the same anonly penalties are lwoered + you get attack speed in 3rd, 2nd, and first attack sequence [ TWF, GTW, ITW w/e order it is]
If you were tempest ranger with tod set you got +1 attack in 3rd attack sequence [ total 2/2/3 = 7]

If your hasted you get +15% enhancement attack speed.
If your tempest ranger I you get +10% competence attack speed.
If your 20th fighter you get +10% Competence attack speed.
If you have zeal you get 10% sacred attack speed.
If your in Wind stance you get X enchanted/X insight % to attack speed?
If you use attack speed enchantments you get 15/20/25/30% attack speed.

After the change.. it's.. i dont get it;/

fighter 20, Zeal and Tempest ranger get some kind of chance to get double attack from main hand, everyone useing 2 weapons get 20% chance to get off hand attack proc with goes up with enchantments/feats.

Questions:
Will haste give bigger chance to get double attack from main hand/and off hand or not?

why you just wont change it to a nice multiplier to dmg.
Change all attack speed bonuses to one number by which the first number in the dmg sequence [ the weapon dice+str] are multipied.
SO hasted fighter with capstone would get (1,1 * 1,15) times the dmg from his weapons.
ETC.
OR just making weapon proc numbers static?
[ I can live with pure good or shroud weapons doing only set amount of dmg [ like 4 on each d6 now]


+ From what i understand now it will be one roll on main hand for the % to do second time the damage, then roll on off hand proc chance + dmg.
So now its like that :
THF barb hasted gets 115 attack and dmg calcs+ grazing hits
TWF tempest 3 ranger hasted in same time gets 125 main/125 off hand attack and dmg calcs

After your changes: [ assuming 15% haste will go as 15% main hand double hit chance]
THF will get 100 attack speed and dmg calculations. + 100 calcs of double hit +15 attack and dmg calcs for double hit?
And TWF tempest ranger 3 hasted:
100 attack and dmg calcs of main hand + 100 proc chnce for double attack from main hand + 25 calcs of attack and dmg from main hand double attack + 100 calculations on off hand proc chance + 85 calculations on attack and dmg from off hand ?

I really dont get why you want more rolls.
[ Or i totaly dont understand whats going on;./]

[dragonofsteel2]

Im not for that changes at all, but all those ppl saying that "twf is not much dps more", "twf needs more stats investment", "twf needs 3 feats" etc make me laugh. 80% of all melee chars in game r twf, and they all should be saints, they r real martyrs, almost no benefits but they still roll twf chars. Its ridiculous.
In what would u put that few more stat points ? More wis for rangers perhaps ? Or maybe more int and wis for rogues ? Please, we all know that those points r needed in dex anyway, for to-hit with bow, for reflex saves. Stop fool yourselves that u make any sacrifice and u got only "litlle more dps"
im all against that changes, its a nerf for THF aswell (btw try to make twitch attack with such lag), i just cant stand hypocrisy and/or stupidity.



Hmm reality been playing and leveling my THF not my TWF anymore. Plan and simple he does more damage, is IT just the SOS that makes it so, maybe. Though do enjoy the idea of twf. Second I do not like the change because it nerfing the damage of TWF, I do not believe its not a issue this second. Last if really was lag they should do whole sale nerf, this way you can readjust all dps. If THF needs little push give to them, but give use real numbers not these freaking math gensis on forum pages. I am sorry, I like to see the true in game hard numbers for once. Might some of these people be close or right, yeah. Though all can be wrong, because they do not understand all the rule sets Trubine is using to calc the dps.


Prove to me this will fix the lag in a way that is worth even doing the nerf. Sorry I do not blindly trust anyone. I want hardcore proof it does what you say. Been promise lag fix after lag fix and all that happens is the lag gets worse. When do you lose trust?


80% or TWF is this base on fact are a number you pull out of your bum? Not saying its false or true but back your statments up. (I do not believe that the dps between two weapon fighting builds and two hand fighting builds is that much different as of now)


Can that change sure, depends on weapons and other things coming out, but as of know the best weapon in game is a THF weapon. Til that changes they are king of dps. Is TWF better dps with a weapon that similar, maybe might be way better in fact. Though with these conditions that exist at this moment "NO TWF IS WEAKER", so dam right THF is better choose at the moment.

[R0cksteady]

Will people who spent time and resources making GS weapons get their ingredients back? I'd like to make something useful for my cleric instead of keeping useless Kopeshes on my fighter.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content).

......

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)





It's been said before, but I'm weighing in: in no way does this attempt at lag require a nerf of twf dps. That's obviously a separate balance issue, period. If TWF does more damage, it costs more: more resources (2x the weapons) more feats, more enhancements, and more stats (unless you go ranger, but then, rangers are designed for light armor boosted by dex, and have situational ranged dps which is also dex dependent. They also don't get strength enhancements to boost damage rolls.)

I'm new to this game, and was enjoying it enough to buy lots of points and lots of packs. It seemed like while yes, there's been plenty of FOTM's, since nerfed, there was no "right" way. But then I'm told that finesse builds are simply sad at endgame content, and that progressively everything has been trending to slot melee into first a nice, little str-based pigeonhole, and now, to one weapon only, since why on earth are you going to put that much effort into swinging two, and not come out at least somewhat ahead? I really thought this game was different, that balance wasn't some kind of endless whack-a-mole nerf-fest. I really hope I'm right, and I have one question i'm hoping can be commented on:

If speed increases are the problem for your engine/hardware, why can't you simply translate the attack portion of all haste/boost effects into additional attacks that are ALL piggybacked, without reducing damage? If you feel that TWF vs THF has balance issues, then why can't that be looked at on its own merit? Because if your goal is to make something that requires no trade-offs in terms of feats or stats equal to something that requires you to plan your entire build around it, that is manifestly wrong.

EDIT: Nasty thought, but while piggybacking physics checks is going to reduce the overhead a certain amount, there's no need to reduce damage in such a huge way unless your actual goal IS to push everyone to playing THF, which is half the weapons and weapon stats/effects to worry about. Say it ain't so, Joe.

[Cortho]

Will people who spent time and resources making GS weapons get their ingredients back? I'd like to make something useful for my cleric instead of keeping useless Kopeshes on my fighter.

/agree

[Timjc86]

Maybe the shield proficiency feats need to add free shield attacks like the proposed change to twf adds a chance to proc your offhand attack.

That's very interesting....

[IronClan]

Eladrin have you considered slightly slowing down all combat (before you guys roast me hear me out, not talking about much) or highly dense combat a few ticks so you effectively have more CPU cycles for every round of combat, effectively upgrading your hardware without changing it? I should think just slowing the whole thing down a TINY amount would get significant benefits... Might not even need to make it slow enough that anyone can tell the difference without using side by side Youtube videos to "a/b" compare. I'm not talking about going from 200 swings a minute to 100... maybe 200 to 180.

[Angelus_dead]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.
Tossing out two more little ideas that could be used to adjust the balance between styles:
ITWF: In addition to the other benefits, your offhand strength damage bonus becomes 75%.
GTWF: In addition to the other benefits, your offhand strength damage bonus becomes 100%.

(Note that those changes would benefit TWF characters less if they're finesse)

Offhand attacks: Give TWF characters a toggle icon so they can get something like glancing blows. You have a chance for an extra attack on one nearby enemy who is not your main target, and only if that swing didn't attack the main target with offhand. That extra attack uses the offhand weapon and cannot crit or sneak attack, but is otherwise normal.

(That change would bring TWF and THF closer together in effectiveness when there are multiple monsters)

[moops]

TWF was king. .

I keep seeing you say that 2WF is/was King. . .

Then why, oh why--do so many LFMs exclude Rangers, Monks & Rogues?

And why do so many Raid LFMs never take a Rogue or a Monk, and will not take more than ONE ranger? Why are all 3 classes excluded from so many EPIC LFMS?

I am wondering if a lot of the positive posts here are from people who do not play end game content, or are very new players like that one guys is so pro nerf.

An Aside, Do the Devs even play at high levels to see what is going on? Do they watch to see how long some of these PUG LFMs take to form? Do they think that making 3 Viable Classes--Barb, FVS & Sorc--these LFMs will fill faster?

The combat system is what attracted me to this game as well as the customization of characters--sadly both of these will be going out the door. Whats the point of doing a specialty build if no one will take you into their groups? Or join one that you form?

[bobbryan2]

Before:
S&B: 110% DPS with capstone
TWF: 220% with capstone

Now:
S&B: 110% with capstone
TWF: 165% with capstone

Yes, I think the DR and AC implications make this viable once again.




Add this, and BANG! S&B just became completely viable with these changes, while keeping TWF and THF still good choices.

Nice thoughts, but it's just not accurate. There really are no AC or DR implications. The problem with S&B is that for most characters, equipping a shield wouldn't grant any increased survivability.

Once again... it's a false balance. Just like between the 18/1/1 and the 20 barbarian. People say it's ok for 18/1/1s to do less damage than the barbarian, because they are more survivable.

Just like people say that less DPS is ok because shields increase survivability. But they only do that in extremely specific situations. If people were using a shield before... they may have caught up a little... but if they were using a shield before they'd all but given up on meaningful DPS anyway.

[Cashiry]

Will people who spent time and resources making GS weapons get their ingredients back? I'd like to make something useful for my cleric instead of keeping useless Kopeshes on my fighter.

or this idea

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251278

[Musashiclaw]

I love the combat in DDO. I love playing my TWF and My Monk. These proposed changes could have a major change in how i feel about my favorite toons and in the end how I feel about DDO.

Swinging a GAxe or any other 2H is pretty lame looking but swinging two weapons is pretty **** cool.

Is this really just about the lag? If it is then couldnt we find a better answer to solve this than nerfing and ****ing off the most played weaponset in game?(this is a guess but i see more twf than thf)

Just thinking about this nerf changes my mind about playing tonite because of all the time I have spent over the last 5 months building my toons.

[bobbryan2]

or this idea

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251278

Wouldn't help the people who made 2 dwarven axes get the ingredients from the second axe back.

[Therilith]

I just noticed this threat. I was in disagreement, but generally sympathetic to the dev's plight, until I saw this.

Threatening to destroy something your paying customers have worked so hard to develop, then pulling back that threat to replace it with a threat against, what, the ONLY THING IN THE GAME that your paying customers have worked on harder than the first thing..... is just poor salesmanship.

If you see every potential nerf as someone threatening you I don't see how you could possibly play an MMO without going insane.

[Cashiry]

Wouldn't help the people who made 2 dwarven axes get the ingredients from the second axe back.

agree, but it would be a step to ease the pain in making THW's for those converting to THF

[krud]

TWF currently, two swings - one main hand, one off hand:

2 Physics checks

2 Attack rolls

TWF proposed, two swings - one main hand, one off hand (assuming you proc your off hand):

1 Physics check

2 Attack rolls

1 percentage roll (to determine off hand proc)


So, 4 rolls/calculations in either case...

But wait, if you don't proc your off hand then it's one less calculation!

That's worth giving up 0-50% of your DPS, right?

Wrong.
They could always use your initial attack roll when determining proc percentage (kinda like a critical hit). Each 5% increment = 1 on a d20.

[Angelus_dead]

So along with the "nerf" coming to TWF how about adding a 10% double-strike chance for a fighter's shield if they have the improved shield bash feat.
...
(I didn't read through all the replies to this thread, in case someone else already suggested something similar.)
That type of thing has been suggested for years, but not in this thread.

Here's a related suggestion:
As per the D&D rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities), give Rogues another special ability option called "Opportunist", which provides +10% Double Strike against enemies who were most-recently damaged by someone aside from you. (Longer and older version of that suggestion (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=242241))

[R0cksteady]

or this idea

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251278

That would be fine, if I planned on making something for my fighter. But it's pointless, I'm not going to bother with it anymore. I'd rather have ingredients for my cleric or the sorc I'm planning. Maybe eventually I'll roll a Barbarian and go THF, but for now I'm just throwing the fighter out. Shame, because it's been reincarnated and in the process fo leveling back up. But it's built for TWF, because I like TWF, and now that that's going to be gimped I'd rather not do melee. Besides, I'm not a fan of Barbs, rolled one before and didn't like it. now that fighters are useless, I'd rather just transfer those ingredients over and forget about it. If I even continue playing the game.

[Calebro]

Nice thoughts, but it's just not accurate. There really are no AC or DR implications. The problem with S&B is that for most characters, equipping a shield wouldn't grant any increased survivability.

Once again... it's a false balance. Just like between the 18/1/1 and the 20 barbarian. People say it's ok for 18/1/1s to do less damage than the barbarian, because they are more survivable.

Just like people say that less DPS is ok because shields increase survivability. But they only do that in extremely specific situations. If people were using a shield before... they may have caught up a little... but if they were using a shield before they'd all but given up on meaningful DPS anyway.

But I'm not talking about the maxed out, most uber, optimized characters we can make, like so many of the posters here seem to be. I'm talking about it being close enough that it's an OPTION again.
So that if you see a fighter with a shield, your first instinct isn't *gimp* without previously knowing the player. Maybe your first instinct will still be *less than optimized* but that isn't an auto-decline like S&B is now.

[Raiderone]

This would buff fighters and barbs, and put rangers further behind the curve though.

But Rangers will be hitting 85% compared to 55% offhand.

[bobbryan2]

But I'm not talking about the maxed out, most uber, optimized characters we can make, like so many of the posters here seem to be. I'm talking about it being close enough that it's an OPTION again.
So that if you see a fighter with a shield, your first instinct isn't *gimp* without previously knowing the player. Maybe your first instinct will still be *less than optimized* but that isn't an auto-decline like S&B is now.

Yes... the gap is closer. No, the gap hasn't closed enough to have that response. You're talking about a gap that's currently three times as large as the proposed nerf being talked about here.

That illustrates just how big a deal this change is... not how insignificant the gap between S&B and TWF is.

[Naash]

The Kensai fighter is supposed to be a blade master... yet he receives the same offhand attack chance as a twf paladin?

How about a 5% per tier offhand attack chance for Kensai I II III... or something to that equivalent.

I realize tempest rangers are supposed to be the twf masters...but they shouldn't be that far ahead of a fighter who is specialty trained with one weapon and one form.



Eladrin,a percentage progression for Double Hit tied to Kensai I,II & III makes much more sense than tying it to the capstone.
Paladins can cast Zeal well before 20th level and get the added effect of possibly 3 smites proccing from 1 initial one(TWF).
Tempest Rangers and Monks get a progression to increase the percentage of the offhand hits.
So why does a Kensai Fighter have to wait for 20th level to get back some of the dps lost from the offhand?

Perhaps a boost to the seeker effect on the capstone could replace the 10% double hit bonus.

[Calebro]

But Rangers will be hitting 85% compared to 55% offhand.

He's talking about THF Fighters and Barbs vs. TWF Rangers.

[shadosatblackphoenix]

Eladrin have you considered slightly slowing down all combat (before you guys roast me hear me out, not talking about much) or highly dense combat a few ticks so you effectively have more CPU cycles for every round of combat, effectively upgrading your hardware without changing it? I should think just slowing the whole thing down a TINY amount would get significant benefits... Might not even need to make it slow enough that anyone can tell the difference without using side by side Youtube videos to "a/b" compare. I'm not talking about going from 200 swings a minute to 100... maybe 200 to 180.

This. As it is, combat goes -way- too fast in DDO. When I play my monk, i honestly cannot read the damage numbers as they scroll, and I usually see the "killing blow" several -seconds- after the mob is dead. Its NOT because I lag, but because the already fast scrolling numbers cannot keep up at their current speed. Its honestly nuts. There's no reason I should be getting a billion attacks per second. Just slow down everything a notch.

We pretty much know this would work, because you can already counter DPS lags by slowing down when fighting in raids. Stop attacking for a few seconds, lag goes away.

Further, its basically impossible to hit a moving mob, because by the time you see yourself hitting, on the server the mob is already a step in front of you, so if the point of the complex collision detection system DDO uses was for real time, realistic combat, it failed anyhow. Dumb it down. Make it that the range/direction detection is refreshed less often (so even if a mob moves a bit Ill still hit it AND the server will not have as much to do).

This will have as a nice side effect of allowing more interesting strategies and allowing us to appreciate what is happening and react to it better. The Baldurs Gate way of "you die in 1/2 a second or everything else dies in 1/4th" doesn't have to apply here. It is supposed to be the online version of a very slow paced table top game. It just needs to be fast enough to please the (big) part of the player base that has severe ADD and no medication, and no faster.

Its the second time in a very short timespawn that Turbine threatens to take out a bulldozer to fix an unrelated problem (Nerfing DC-based arcanes as a whole just to help with Air Elemental mechanic...), that honestly if this went through (even though it doesn't affect me directly, as I play primarly casters, except for a monk that didn't hit 20 yet), I'd heavily reconsider playing this, because my characters may very well be next.

I'm not against strategic, small scale nerfing to make the game more fun, but this is just plain stupid. And lets not get on how it could affect several abilities like assassinate and Stunning Fist that proc on both the main and offhand (evening out their lack luster landing rate in end game).

Once again, Turbine seems to want us to only play Frenzied barbarians that hit 3 abilities then hold down the button. ::YAWN::

[Calebro]

Yes... the gap is closer. No, the gap hasn't closed enough to have that response. You're talking about a gap that's currently three times as large as the proposed nerf being talked about here.

That illustrates just how big a deal this change is... not how insignificant the gap between S&B and TWF is.

But that's exactly my point. With how big that gap was, something surely needed to be done. This addresses part of that problem, and I'm hoping it makes it to live (assuming it works as intended).

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I'm cool with some of the speed changes swapping to doublestrike. Even though they don't really affect me; if they did it sounds fair.

I'm all for bringing the fighting styles closer together.

Removing the unnecessary physics check sounds great.

I'm not sure about the change to TWF. For starters, it's a deviation from D&D. But, less attacks is okay.
It's probably easier for noobs to the D&D rules to know what's going on with the changes...
And maybe it'll make the entire TWF chain no longer seem necessary...

I guess, there are two issues.
First, it's a deviation from core D&D.
Second, TWF is now getting less attacks than before, reducing DPS.

If your goal here is to nerf TWF DPS, then I can't argue.
And I think it's still in the spirit of the feat, and possibly adapts it to a more real-time system.

... I think I just talked myself into accepting it :p.

[Angelus_dead]

If the game uses a simple RNG the computation is relatively quick, but we will see anomalies where multiple calls to the RNG do not produce a uniform distribution.
There will be no statistically detectable anomaly if they use fast RNG functions that have been published for over a decade.

[Shade]

Haven't seen anyone talk about this yet:
So the goal of these changes is both to reduce the dps lag caused by twf/monk.. And to reduce TWF dps a bit to balance it more towards THF.

Because most endgame players know if you take 5 TWF into say VoN6 epic and they all attack the dragon, DPS lag is 99% gaurenteed, the dragon will not appear to be moving and thus predicting the breath is difficult and often leads to lag deaths.

Vs 5, 6,7 or even more players with THF in the same area and no twf.. You will almost never see any lag.

So the problem is twf. Almost exclusively. Sure THF causes calculations too, but ones that the servers have proven to be able to keep up with for the most part, so no nerfs are needed.

Yet..

You thross in a direct nerf to THF as well?!?!

Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.
I don't see the purpose of this. If your trying to bring TWF dps down cloase to THF, why are you also nerfing THF?

The big draw for me and Im sure a lot of players is the fast pacced active combat of the game. THF - with the GTHF feat allows you to keep moving and attack numerious enemies at once, to help draw agro off you party, and do some (not much) aoe damage as well. Most players understand that doing this to a big pack of mosnters while standing still just plain doesn't work as the enemies move too fast and your attack range ismply even very long while standing still.

That just isn't any fun.

Why directly nerf GTHF's ability to deal damage to many enemies while moving?

It seems to me these changes impact the fighter the most, especially the TWF fighter, but also nerf the THF one.. And to top it off for fighters - it makes hte GTHF feat almost entirely worthless, since the primary reason to take it is to add that glancing blow attack while moving.
Fighters would become a stronger class if DDO had more and better feats. Rightnow they suffer a bit as a class because most of the best feat easily fit into the 7/8 feat profile of classes like Rogues, Paladins and Barbarians who get no bonus feats. This change will only make it worse ,as they could safely drop GTHF without any big loss.

So it's a nerf. Not one that will help dps lag, not one that will help balance, and not one that anyone asked for. Why do it?

If the idea is to somewher reduce THF AOE dmg output because you feel the nerfs being done to TWF are too severe to "even" it out.. Why go with such an EXTREME approach. As this change goes from "some aoe damage while moving" to "ZERO, None at all ever AOE dmg while moving".. Rather extreme nerf. If glancing blows were to be nerfed like TWF, they should at least get some smaller chance to proc some damage while moving, and not have it entirely taken away without cause.

[bobbryan2]

But that's exactly my point. With how big that gap was, something surely needed to be done. This addresses part of that problem, and I'm hoping it makes it to live (assuming it works as intended).

S&B needed help, sure. But this isn't the way to do it. A better way would have been a concurrent nerf to THF and TWF with a subsequent % decrease of monster HP.

Simply nerfing offhand proc rates is a terrible way to rebalance things.

I'd rather them gut the greensteel system than these changes as proposed. Surely there's a way to make greensteel more efficient.... like simply having each tier increase the base damage of the weapon with less often bigger numbers (like lightning strikes)

[Souless]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 90% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing, while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 75% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread ( http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2374594&postcount=5) - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk 100% 70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed) 110% 60%
14 Pal/6 Rng 110% 65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk 100% 90%


This is a twf nerf plain and simple......

The DPS lag is on the server side...logical solution is to upgrade the server.

Additionally this increases the power of an already OVERPOWERED two handed fighting build with the EIPC SOS (also OVERPOWERED) as to make these toons more desirable melee types... I don't want the game to go back to the days of *if ur not a barb ur not in the grp* AND this WILL happen if you nerf twf.....

A better solution is to NOT have ur server calculate twh probabilities wich WILL cause a different type of lag, have ur server piggyback the damage output. Have ur sever in large grps simply apply all the effects in 1 number. Or have player feedback become secondary...as lag increases have the feedback to the players decrease and not eliminate the effects.

Additionally when striking at 1 opponent (ie main raid boss where most of the lag occurs) elliminate glacing blows completely..there is after all only 1 opponent to hit. Also u could eliminate glacing strikes completely and NOT affect the players (this will just affect the mobs) which YOU guys put in as a way to NERF ac builds.

In short this is a complete nerf...explain it anyway you want but if it looks like sh**, smells like sh**, chances are it is sh**!!!

So here is my 2 cents....fix your problems without nerfing MY builds please!

The Bycher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Vampir/Spectyr/Xindao/Richgirl

[Eladrin]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

[Visty]

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

that would bring it more back to pnp, id prefer this version (even the fact that you considered what i suggested is awesome :) )

[bobbryan2]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

Still do not think STWF is a good idea. If you're going to require even MORE investment... there needs to be a distinct DPS advantage with TWF over THF.

[Cortho]

Instead of changing the entire combat system, and nerfing many toons, just slow down everything by 10%, monsters and characters.

[Coldin]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80% * Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

But what if a Monk has Air Stance VI and Superior TWF?

Do they deal 110% off-hand attacks? What would 110% off-hand attacks be?

Edit: Gah. Didn't see that Windstance turned into a Doublestrike instead.

[GwenJynx]

Please do not add STWF. This will require even more investment and unfairly punish Rogues who will never be able to take the feat without splashing.

[Khelden]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%
I don't think STWF should be added. It's only going to make the TWF population cry more to have better DPS.

[Visty]

But what if a Monk has Air Stance VI and Superior TWF?

Do they deal 110% off-hand attacks? What would 110% off-hand attacks be?

80+20=100

not sure where you got the extra 10% from

[R0cksteady]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

Well, that leaves TWF fighters with some comparability to Tempest rangers, which is good. Fighter haste should put fighters ahead in DPS, and un fighter-hasted should keep them behind. Like it does now. And this looks like it'll do just that. I'm glad, because I'd sooner stop playing a melee character than respec and regrind for gs ingredients to make up for a silly nerf.

It's good to see our opinions are heard.

[Calebro]

Still do not think STWF is a good idea. If you're going to require even MORE investment... there needs to be a distinct DPS advantage with TWF over THF.
I agree with this statement.

[Angelus_dead]

* Only when wielding two weapons.
Funny, so a Tempest3 with a single Vorpal Longsword can vorpal faster with an offhand club than with a shield... no problem.


This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses
Funny that Wind Stance just flipped its bias from kama/shortswords to quarterstaff.


and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.
I suppose you were already typing this out when the numerous complaints against changing TWF into a four-feat (five or six counting khopesh+otwf) combat style were posted. The D&D rules for feat slots just don't give enough room for getting STWF or not to be a fun decision.

PS. If you want to get THF and TWF closer together, it's possible to work from the other direction and buff the number of glancing blows or the chance of special weapon effects.

[Khelden]

I would strongly suggest addressing one problem at a time.

1st the lag, THEN the TWF-THF balance... Addressing many problems at once has never been a good strategy.

[Isssssa]

We're considering modifications to the bonuses the feats grant, and possibly even bringing back STWF.

This would be a bad idea because TWF build that were already tight on feats lose out even more.

If you want to implement a change like this, make sure it doesn't change the balance of dps. Right now a THF and TWF build can do fairly similar dps. I haven't ran the numbers, but I have a feeling an overall drop in DPS will occur.

Also, the change in zeal means a 10% decrease in DPS for THF paladins. There needs to be something added to what the spell will now do to make up for this nerf to THF builds.

As a general rule, customers will be mad if a change is made to decrease their abilities. A better way to approach this would be to keep the alacrity there as it is. I dont have my game availble to double check, but its something like 2/3, 3/4 and 4/5 main hand attacks with TWF, ITWF and GTWF respectively get the 2nd hand attack. Couldn't the alacrity remain and a 67%, 75% and 80% chance for the 2nd swing proc be added instead. This changes the calculations but keeps the damage output the same as it was previously.

[Borror0]

Finally read through it all. Took me an hour and a half, but I've done it.

Okay, now, onto my feedback:
The idea to reduce collision tests and to change most attack bonuses into hooks is a good one. Keep it.

The proposed change also contains an unnecessary but easily justifiable nerf to TWF. Omit it for now. Instead, use values that do not nerf anyone's DPS. While the goal is commendable, changes that try to fix several issues at a time never go well past the players. Grazing hits are a good example of this: it tried to address several issue at once and very few people actually got it, and most posters actually viewed "fixing many things at once" as one of grazing hits flaws.

Even though the nerf in question would probably result into an improvement of game balance, the community's perception of the change matters a lot.

That does not mean you should not nerf TWF into a future update. In fact, you probably should but the key phrase here is "in a future update" - not now. Use this opportunity to buy Turbine some good will credits from the playerbase and announce that "based on feedback" you have decided to modify the values so that the change "would not result in a DPS loss for TWF characters." A lot of veterans believe that Turbine does not listen to them, and here is an opportunity to prove them wrong. Push the nerf to a latter update and let us digest the change to attack rates first. Smaller pills are easier to swallow.

Another positive aspect of separating the nerf from the lag fix is that, in the event the lag fix does not address the lag, you'll have avoided a lot of unnecessary hate. Like JayDubya said earlier (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2989632#post2989632) in the thread, "if you make these changes, and the DPS lag doesn't go away. Then you get a lot of really angry people."

I get it. You are going to nerf my character into oblivion.
Can I have a free Heart of Wood and Greensteel deconstruction?
Talking about player frustration management, you'll notice that there are a lot of comments like this thorough the thread. This is why many others and I have stressed - and still stress - the importance of easily affordable respec mechanism. DDO's current approach to them is completely backward. Instead of being easily affordable, most of them can only be done by spending real world money.

Allowing players to adapt to changes you make would help in reducing the frustration caused by nerfs. On the other hand, asking them to pay you with their hard earned money for a change that you made will most likely anger them furthermore.

We 2weaponers have to grind twice as much to reach our dps levels, and there should be a significant upside to it, especially considering someone with a 2hander and ZERO feats is about 90% effective in that style, while someone with no feats is about -25% as effective as someone with all 3 feats while using 2 weapons.
I think that the grind pint is an important one that has not been brought up often enough. It's not healthy for a game to have a fighting style that is better simply because it requires more grinding. However, it's equally not healthy to have a fighting style that is as good as the others but requires twice more grinding.

Ideally, it would be best if one-handed weapon dropped somewhere between two or thee times more often than two-handed weapons so that the demand for the two would be similar. As for crafted weapons, like Green Steel, two-handed weapon should require twice the number of incredients than one-handed weapons so that the griding would remain comparable.

[Chai]

So it's a nerf. Not one that will help dps lag, not one that will help balance, and not one that anyone asked for. Why do it?



Arent you like, the champion of "twitching" which is moving slightly in order to increase the attack rate animation at the cost of AB which doesnt even matter because youre so well geared?

I think you CAN see why.

[R0cksteady]

Wait, does this mean STWF would be a free feat? Just a BAB requirement, or will there be a higher dex requirement?

[Temko]

I don't think STWF should be added. It's only going to make the TWF population cry more to have better DPS.

TWF already has better DPS - at least, i can out DPS any THF against any single mob,and my **** procs more.

edit:

actually

STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%

100/100
105/120

a BOOST in dps? :D

[eeeeeee]

I think soul tells it best when it comes to making a complicated solution to a simple problem....the sos is not overpowered hes lying it took me 35 ev1 runs to get the seal Die SOUL

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Eladrin - thanks a lot for listening, I need to do some math on the new table but it looks much much better - maybe only a 5-10% nerf to tempest 3 and wind 4 - but a 100% reduction in physics calculations.

Garth

[kruggar]

i have a question.

im fighting against two enemies close to each other and im a twf.

i hit the one im targeted and i got the proc change for off hand attack, but my first attack killed the first enemie.

how do u solve the colision issue to see if im in range for the off hand to hit the second attack?

or the off-hand attack will be lost in this case?

[kamimitsu]

I realize I'm late to the discussion and my comments may get lost in the tide, but I feel the need to put in my 2 copper.

First off, I'm not sure the sky is falling down. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how it plays out, as some randomization might make combat more interesting ::gasp::

However, I do have one small suggestion (forgive me if it has been covered, but I had to skim a very long thread). In any animation that clearly makes two simultaneous attacks (running and attacking with TWF, rogue Stealth attacks, etc.), you might consider guaranteeing off-hand procs. The animation clearly makes two attacks, and these attacks are already at significantly reduced speed. This has the added benefit of ensuring that Assassins can still double assassinate (just like in the movies) without the risk of alerting one of a pair. Attack inconsistency and stealth don't mix well, which makes Shiz a sad monkey.

EDIT: after reading the post above mine, now I'm wondering how the collision detection will react to a successful Assassinate. Will any remaining attacks just be lost? If so, then please consider leaving 2 detection checks for simultaneous attack animations.

[Khelden]

TWF already has better DPS - at least, i can out DPS any THF against any single mob,and my **** procs more.
Huh, you did not read my other posts? I keep saying TWF is unbalanced compared to THF, it is way stronger at the moment lol.

[zed1]

With these proposed changes, does the fighter capstone only provide a 10% chance to double strike when TWF? (It is hard to tell from the original post.) If so, that is a major nerf to all pure fighters regardless of fighting style. The benefit to TWF is minimal, and the current benefit to THF has been removed.

I'm all for reducing lag, but this re-balancing effort goes too far IMHO. Most of my characters will need to be tossed, TRed, or the concepts reworked. The whole thing is more than a little depressing. If the plan was to reduce lag by keeping players from wanting to log in and play: this change = epic win.

Edit:
Latest numbers by Eladrin seem much more balanced. Also, as Visty confirms, THF-style still gets double strike chance so no real change to the capstone. In other news: sky does not fall.

[Wurmwood]

So from my understanding, if you were to have a Greater two weapon fighting ranger and he rolled to hit (+15 or whatever) and the server says "ok, that's a hit" there will be an 80% chance that that "hit" does double damage? or does it roll again for the 2nd hits damage which is an automatic hit. And all the while your toon will still be doing the twf weapon animation correct? If that's the case, he has to finish the animation to do another attack right? Will that not slow things down? And basically require people to drink haste pots like they had a mouth full of salt?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

or the off-hand attack will be lost in this case?

yes - I think in the case where the main hand kills the mob, because a second physics calculation is not being carried out on the second mob, the off hand attack is lost in this case. Only really an issue for when you are attacking several low hitpoint mobs.

Bumping this (it was mentioned once earlier in the thread too) in case Eladrin missed this while reading the other 800 posts.

Garth

[le_goat]

Maybe, instead of slowing twf for everyone, you could slow the the raid boss encounters matrix style,just the ones with lag.

[Naash]

Eladrin,
Like the amended proposal much better but at least think about breaking Alacrity up into a progression for Kensai I,II & III.

[Siskel]

i have a question.

im fighting against two enemies close to each other and im a twf.

i hit the one im targeted and i got the proc change for off hand attack, but my first attack killed the first enemie.

how do u solve the colision issue to see if im in range for the off hand to hit the second attack?

or the off-hand attack will be lost in this case?

I asked the same question earlier and have not seen a response.

[vVAnjilaVv]

So once again the vicious circle begins.....one playstyle is being nerfed because another feels that their play style is weak in comparison.

Quests will now take longer to complete because TWF won't be as effective....but the THF can walk away bragging that thier kill count is higher than it used to be.

/facepalm

About the lag issue, seriously, DA didn't help much at all.....I am no coding or game development expert here....but with all the increased revenue you guys are seeing can't you just upgrade your systems and call this latest "lag fix" what it really is......

controlling the playstyles of this game.

I finally get my pure monk to level 20 and just love how fun it is to play only to be told that in short time my monk will be doing less DPS.......

I have an idea!!!!...leave TWF alone....upgrade your hardware and give THF a boost somewhere.....while your at it, drop DA as well.

[Ethias]

Please don't bring back STWF. This would penalize classes which are very short on feats, especially DW melee clerics/FvS, which already need to splash fighter levels to have even some metamagic with all the twf required.

[Temko]

Huh, you did not read my other posts? I keep saying TWF is unbalanced compared to THF, it is way stronger at the moment lol.

30 pages of thread. brain not contain it all :P

but, i belive that a lot of th TWF will get a healty nerf to lower numbers wile te ACTUAL TWF classes get that boost (Rangers ffs!)

[Visty]

With these proposed changes, does the fighter capstone only provide a 10% chance to double strike when TWF? (It is hard to tell from the original post.) If so, that is a major nerf to all pure fighters regardless of fighting style. The benefit to TWF is minimal, and the current benefit to THF has been removed.

I'm all for reducing lag, but this re-balancing effort goes too far IMHO. Most of my characters will need to be tossed, TRed, or the concepts reworked. The whole thing is more than a little depressing. If the plan was to reduce lag by keeping players from wanting to log in and play: this change = epic win.

fighter capstone and zeal applys to all styles, only tempest 3 needs 2 weapons

[Towrn]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%


These numbers look a great deal better than the first ones I saw.

Still would like to test it, because if it has 0 effect on dps lag, then there really isn't much point, now is there?

[Souless]

[QUOTE=Shade;2990775]Haven't seen anyone talk about this yet:
So the goal of these changes is both to reduce the dps lag caused by twf/monk.. And to reduce TWF dps a bit to balance it more towards THF.

Vs 5, 6,7 or even more players with THF in the same area and no twf.. You will almost never see any lag.

So the problem is twf. Almost exclusively. Sure THF causes calculations too, but ones that the servers have proven to be able to keep up with for the most part, so no nerfs are needed.

Yet..

You thross in a direct nerf to THF as well?!?!

I don't see the purpose of this. If your trying to bring TWF dps down cloase to THF, why are you also nerfing THF?

Why directly nerf GTHF's ability to deal damage to many enemies while moving?

So it's a nerf. Not one that will help dps lag, not one that will help balance, and not one that anyone asked for. Why do it?

If this were the case, why are so many player clammering after the epic sos?

If TWF was so much better that THF. Why are endgame players building barbs WF fvs for the epic sos.

I have heard of crit numbers that are just crazy commin off the sos.

Also I have seen the lag come with multiple THF beating on the dragon. additionally, she blows fire if a player dc's as well. I can't say that the THF's were alone as I was in there fighting also and i have a TWF build. What I can say is against the djinn's on the bases i have seen more THF pull agro then TWF's. so what does that tell you about dps?

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Vampir/Spectyr/Xindao/Richgirl

[Cortho]

Why do such a complicated fix, when all combat could be slowed just a little to fix everything.

[Seelowe]

Paladins can cast Zeal well before 20th level and get the added effect of possibly 3 smites proccing from 1 initial one(TWF).

please do not even try to make a positive example out of paladins. dual wielding paladins are being severly gimped by this change as these builds are pretty much built around the dual smiting/divine sacrifice damage. they got 2 smite numbers out of 1 smite "charge". now, instead of 100% extra smite you get a minimal chance at a 2nd main hit and a severely nerfed chance at the previously automatic 2nd smite in your attack sequence.
p.s.: you need 14 lvls of paladin for your 1st lvl 4 spell btw

[Borror0]

Tempest III +5%*
I agree with the others who have spoken against (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251248&page=40) adding STWF. The number of feat slots available are just too few for this to be a good idea.

With that said, if you are going to add STWF, shouldn't Tempest III get STWF for free? As far as I can remember, that has always have been the design goal behind Tempest III and it even lasted after STWf got axes. "The additional attacks gained at tier III are identical to what we originally had planned for (the not-in-the-game) Superior Two Weapon Fighting," as you said last year (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168667). Otherwise, wouldn't low-dexterity rangers get hit pretty hard?

[Gobbothegreen]

30 pages of thread. brain not contain it all :P

but, i belive that a lot of th TWF will get a healty nerf to lower numbers wile te ACTUAL TWF classes get that boost (Rangers ffs!)

if anythingwouldnt rangers be the ones hit hardest by the nerf?

110% main 137.5% off hand down to 105%/100%

Vs for a fighter

110%main 110% off hand to 110%/80%

[Shade]

Arent you like, the champion of "twitching" which is moving slightly in order to increase the attack rate animation at the cost of AB which doesnt even matter because youre so well geared?

I think you CAN see why.

I am not anymore so then any other good player. It is a simple fighting style that thousands of players can easily perform.

I also do not see the correlation. None of these changes will change how I play.

Infact the double-strike chance that fighters will get, and that warchanters will eventually give will only further increase the gap in using that style vs not using it.

What this nerf is exactly as I explained, THF AOE DPS. And there is no reason for it. Read my post more carefully.

If Eladrin's purpose was to reduce single target dps while moving (what your referring too) He could of done it in a much more direct way that would really upset me and many many other players - The devs clearly understand the fun of the combat systems active style and benefit from moving, to consider taking full advantage of taht an "exploit" its just plain foolish.

What he's proposing doesn't effect that much at all.

With the epic sword of shadows complete lack of bonus effects, and rather minimal damage glancing blows do, using the stepping attack will STILL provide an increase to overall DPS. So again, this is not what you think it is.

What it does nerf for me:
Nerfs my ability to play a strong tank in a scenario with allot of enemies. Since I do not use the intimdate skill much at all.. I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies. I considered this a important and fair ability unique to THF players, and I don't see a fair reason to nerf it.

[RobbinB]

Nice thoughts, but it's just not accurate. There really are no AC or DR implications. The problem with S&B is that for most characters, equipping a shield wouldn't grant any increased survivability.

A couple of intelligent moves by Turbine to make shields more worthwhile in non-turtle mode and an address of the narrow 'ac window' problems could change this.
Once again... it's a false balance. Just like between the 18/1/1 and the 20 barbarian. People say it's ok for 18/1/1s to do less damage than the barbarian, because they are more survivable.

Strange...what I heard is that you can't do damage if you're dead.

Just like people say that less DPS is ok because shields increase survivability. But they only do that in extremely specific situations. If people were using a shield before... they may have caught up a little... but if they were using a shield before they'd all but given up on meaningful DPS anyway.

Less dps is ok if it grants increased survivability. Just not 50% dps...that's too extreme. Many raids don't require maximal dps - controlled dps is far more important. And if you need max dps to succeed at non-raid questing, then either you suck extremely hard or you are limiting yourself to running elite amrath and reavers refuge content solo - in which case I bow to your uberness.

[tokenghost]

Ok. Spent an hour on a post with a lot of quotes and responses in it ... then tried to preview it and it all disappeared... so this one is going to be shorter.

Eladrin, thanks for asking for feedback, hopefully you can actually listen to what we're saying...

Here's what I think based on what I've seen in the thread.

1. This is a nerf to 2wf wrapped up with a "lag fix" bow. I don't like that at all. If you're going to nerf something, give us a little courtesy spit and do it.

2. I haven't seen anyone saying "don't change the physics!" but I have to agree with everyone that has said "don't change the physics AND 2wf at the same time!" Change the physics. If it reduces lag even a little, count it as a success and move on to another step.

3. I'd rather see babysteps toward a better game rather than a headlong off a cliff that takes 2/3rd of the toons in the game into a respec or reroll descision.

4. The 2wf change affects EVERYTHING. Greensteel crafting, feat decisions, build options, levelling, game balance, DT choices, party composition, even ranged combat, and probably more things I can't think of quickly... I'd say that's one drastic change to have any kind of narrow time window[really want to quote that post but can't find it atm].

[edit - knew I would forget something]
5. Condensing the damage rolls to 1d6 roll for all d6 dmg, etc. sounds to me like another one of those little fixes that could be done without affecting anything else except the lag.

So, to sum up, my response to this:

Please, take your time and do it right, and please don't do this all in one go as it was proposed.

[donotdirect1]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

Am I for adding yet another feat requirement to two weapon fighting JUST for it to be without missing attacks.

No. Phantom attacks you just miss out on because of what exactly? If you are saying that you are "mysteriously missing because of no opportunity" you are basically saying "all mobs now have partial concealment, but only from your off hand."

You wanted it to slow down lag? You're really just making the nerf hit lower level characters, making it harder to level, while many people are TRing. This, in my opinion, is going to hurt your base players.

Making less rolls and checks? That's a no brainer. As I mentioned, we do that in PnP all the time. Making static damage totals for the attack chain works far better, and is far more in line with PnP. Not missed opportunity for attacks for no reason.

Misses are for displacement effects, armor class, to hit, and misc modifiers. That's the core, why add in a new miss feature? There is enough working in combat.

Have lag? Get static.

Simplify the numbers and it'll do less work.

Think of things in rounds, like it ought to be.

[Boromirs]

I don't think STWF should be added. It's only going to make the TWF population cry more to have better DPS.

Thats the Nerf though. From what Im reading about Eladrin's modified numbers is that essentially with STWF (I assume this is Supreme Two weapon Fighting - wasn't here for that) it would minimize the considerable nerfage to total of 210% rather then the current 220% (given zeal or alacrity). This is still heavy in terms of a nerf, and paladins will still be screwed (feat starved class) however, if the THF weapon changes (about no glancing blows during movement) get implemented AND I see SOME lag mitigation I say it's a fair trade.

Also, I say it's a fair trade because it brings BOTH THF and TWF closer in-line with S&B. If S&B gets a good boost I would say close to perfection in terms of balance.

To Eladrin,

Still work with the numbers but I think you just cooled A LOT of people's heads from crazy insanity to muted rage.

[The_Wolf]

Ok, I'm fine with the lag fix. Of course, we need to take these issues separately... the lag fix has nothing to do with the DPS of TWF. Turbine can link the weapons to the main attack and get rid of the second physics collision without changing anything. Damage rolls could be done using an average number instead of random if they wanted to get rid of all those rolls.

Instead, they feel DPS of TWF is overpowered... now, I have a hard time buying this to some degree. My main character is an assassin build 18/2 rogue/pally. I certainly do a good deal of damage. But I pale in comparison to characters that can solo Raids or Epics. What's more overpowered? A TWF who does 25% more damage than a THF or someone that solos Epics?

Now... onto this damage reduction. If Turbine is set on it, I did like an earlier post I read about factoring Dex into the chance of having a secondary attack. Another thought - Why not factor in weapon size as well? Logically, it would seem a dagger would have an easier time "finding an opening" than someone dual-wielding longswords.

That way, the people who choose to dual-wield can still do so, by giving up some damage in the form of having to sacrifice weapon damage.

I also think people should have the opportunity to respec/reroll whatever if these changes go through. Many have spent 100s of hours grinding for the perfect weapons only to have those off-hand weapons half as useful now. There should be compensation (Maybe even the mentioned ability to "de-combine" GS).

[Gobbothegreen]

I am not anymore so then any other good player. It is a simple fighting style that thousands of plays can easily perform.

I also do not see the corrolation. None of these changes will change how I play.

Infact the doublestrike chance warchanters will evnetually give will only further increase the gap in using that style vs not using it.

What this nerf is exactly as I explained, THF AOE DPS. And there is no reason for it. Read my post more carefully.

If Eladrin's purpose was to reduce single target dps while moving (what your refering too) He could of done it in a much more direct way that would really upset me and many many other players - The devs clearly understand the fun of the combat systems active style and benefit from moving, to consider taking full advantage of taht an "exploit" its just plain foolish.

What he's proposing doesn't effect that much at all.

With the epic sword of shadows complete lack of bonus effects, and rather minimal damage glancing blows do, using the stepping attack will STILL provide an increase to overall DPS. So again, this is not what you think it is.

What it does nerf for me:
Nerfs my ability to play a strong tank in a scenario with allot of enemies. Since I do not use the intimdate skill much at all.. I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies. I considered this a important and fair ability unique to THF players, and I don't see a fair reason to nerf it.


So they nerfed twitching? whats the big deal, not like we have been seeing it comign for a while, im surprised it took this long for the big nerf.

So if you want to do that Aoe damage dont twitch.

[Eladrin]

I agree with the others who have spoken against (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251248&page=40) adding STWF. The number of feat slots available are just too few for this to be a good idea.
I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


With that said, if you are going to add STWF, shouldn't Tempest III get STWF for free? As far as I can remember, that has always have been the design goal behind Tempest III and it even lasted after STWf got axes. "The additional attacks gained at tier III are identical to what we originally had planned for (the not-in-the-game) Superior Two Weapon Fighting," as you said last year (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168667). Otherwise, wouldn't low-dexterity rangers get hit pretty hard?
Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

[Khelden]

Thats the Nerf though. From what Im reading about Eladrin's modified numbers is that essentially with STWF (I assume this is Supreme Two weapon Fighting - wasn't here for that) it would minimize the considerable nerfage to total of 210% rather then the current 220% (given zeal or alacrity). This is still heavy in terms of a nerf, and paladins will still be screwed (feat starved class) however, if the THF weapon changes (about no glancing blows during movement) get implemented AND I see SOME lag mitigation I say it's a fair trade.

Also, I say it's a fair trade because it brings BOTH THF and TWF closer in-line with S&B. If S&B gets a good boost I would say close to perfection in terms of balance.

To Eladrin,

Still work with the numbers but I think you just cooled A LOT of people's heads from crazy insanity to muted rage.
The problem is that THF would have 3 feats and TWF would have 4 feats... Considering how many class are feat starved, it would beat down a good deal of possible builds and would give an excuse for TWF to cry for a DPS INCREASE [not stay like they are, but an increase from now].

THF and TWF should be the same with some minor difference... For exemple, THF could do more DPS [slightly], while TWF would be better for effects proc.

[Vynnt]

The new numbers are a lot better, imo.

I would still consider putting the 10% alacrity bonuses for doublestrike on off hand as well as main hand. It makes more sense. Before, 10% alacrity gave a speed bonus to both hands, now its only giving a damage bonus to one hand.

I somewhat support STWF. This balances weapon finesse more to match the damage of str based twf.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Hey.....well I think it should be obvious why this is being done right.......nerf a couple playstyles which makes people reconsider their builds and maybe opt for buying hearts of wood.

Look now the brand new +5 hearts of wood (which I am actually quite happy about trying...but besides that) are being offered for a limited time!....yeah right :rolleyes: just like the +2 tomes were.....Turbine will do this, see how many people will buy the new hearts of wood and see how many people will turn their multiclass split into a pure build because it will be more advantageous and more appealing now that they can change 5 levels in one shot.

Yes....it is nearing the tinfoil hat with this theory...but come on....love how all of this happens to get announced on the same day with a little buttering up of the loot tables the day before to make us less annoyed.

I would bet in a few months or less the +5 hearts will become permanent and they will need to think of a new "lag reducer" to sell a new item that is stated as limited time only but becomes permanent a short time later.

And I do still recall someone officially stating the store was not going to have a direct impact on gameplay.

[R0cksteady]

I'm on board with the static damage change instead. Wouldn't effect overall DPS, and would reduce the lag. Just give us the average of current damage output. Anything 1d6 would do 3.5 average damage. Just round I guess, up or down I'm sure wouldn't make a big difference compared to the change this topic is about. Should reduce lag quite a bit, without unbalancing classes.

[Calebro]

Considering the fairly radical nature of the changes, and the timeliness with which the Compendium gets updated :rolleyes:, might I suggest that you post a sticky in the Combat Forum (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181) once all of this gets nailed down?

[Chai]

I am not anymore so then any other good player. It is a simple fighting style that thousands of players can easily perform.

I also do not see the correlation. None of these changes will change how I play.

Infact the double-strike chance that fighters will get, and that warchanters will eventually give will only further increase the gap in using that style vs not using it.

What this nerf is exactly as I explained, THF AOE DPS. And there is no reason for it. Read my post more carefully.

If Eladrin's purpose was to reduce single target dps while moving (what your referring too) He could of done it in a much more direct way that would really upset me and many many other players - The devs clearly understand the fun of the combat systems active style and benefit from moving, to consider taking full advantage of taht an "exploit" its just plain foolish.

What he's proposing doesn't effect that much at all.

With the epic sword of shadows complete lack of bonus effects, and rather minimal damage glancing blows do, using the stepping attack will STILL provide an increase to overall DPS. So again, this is not what you think it is.

What it does nerf for me:
Nerfs my ability to play a strong tank in a scenario with allot of enemies. Since I do not use the intimdate skill much at all.. I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies. I considered this a important and fair ability unique to THF players, and I don't see a fair reason to nerf it.

The correlation is that it was not an intended play style. I play a high end barbarian, and understand what it is versus regular attack animation. I have also seen the numbers crunched in your threads.

[Naash]

please do not even try to make a positive example out of paladins. dual wielding paladins are being severly gimped by this change as these builds are pretty much built around the dual smiting/divine sacrifice damage. they got 2 smite numbers out of 1 smite "charge". now, instead of 100% extra smite you get a minimal chance at a 2nd main hit and a severely nerfed chance at the previously automatic 2nd smite in your attack sequence.
p.s.: you need 14 lvls of paladin for your 1st lvl 4 spell btw

Was well aware of how this would affect twf Pallys(have one)but was simply making the point that Fighters(have 3) have to wait until the capstone to get a little dps back(before Eladrin's amended proposal).
p.s.:14 levels of paladin is well before 20 levels of fighter(especially when tr'ing).

[Alintalkin]

Out of curiosity anyone know what the bab requirement for STWF is? If it is over 15 that would be a bad thing as then monks and rogues couldn't get it when they are two classes that largely benefit from TWF (HW being best DPS for monks and rogues hitting sneak attacks)

[Batman78]

to all those advocating static damage, Eladrin has already stated that the rolls for the actual damage are not the issue. The randomizer for rolls is not very load intensive where as the collision test is, so reducing the thing that puts no load on the processor doesn't solve anything. Also I reiterate I seriously doubt they are against putting in new servers and getting new toys to play with, but its not their call, developers do what they are told.

[Shade]

The correlation is that it was not an intended play style. I play a high end barbarian, and understand what it is versus regular attack animation. I have also seen the numbers crunched in your threads.

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent. Nor will these changes have a big impact on that.

Directly nerfing them from doing "some aoe damage" to "zero aoe dmg" is a big deal.

Gathering up the attention of many foes, and sometimes to the detriment of the party by waking up fascinated foes always seems like an important and intended part of the two handed fighting style to me. I very much doubt the devs disagree with that.

All I'm reaidng here is people that really don't like the way I play the game want my game to be nerfed because they play the game differently then me (and it's not happening here, no matter how hard you scream). Discrimination at it's finest. I could care less of what you think of my play style and I don't think this is even a proper topic to discuss it. I certainly won't make any remakrs about yours.

[Galacticus]

Call me crazy, but I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations, several of them.

Isn't this just going to make it worse?

Remember, I'm no coder so I don't fully know the implications, but it just doesn't feel like it's going to fix anything, to me. It also will reduce twf damage across the board, while simultaneously not fixing the problem.

Feel free to explain to me why I'm wrong, if I am.

/signed

+1 rep

[Dylos_Moon]

Out of curiosity anyone know what the bab requirement for STWF is? If it is over 15 that would be a bad thing as then monks and rogues couldn't get it when they are two classes that largely benefit from TWF (HW being best DPS for monks and rogues hitting sneak attacks)

It is 15, but Rogues and Monks still cant take it.

The last feat a pure rogue or pure monk gets is at BAB 13 (if your last level is fighter, you can get STWF)
Btw, new numbers look much better, 80% for 3 feats seems a lot better then 55% especially for those of us who are not fighters, rangers, or monks.

[Coldin]

Forgot to give feedback!

I like these new numbers a bit better. I suppose TWF is still getting a small nerf since players simply won't attack as fast under this system.

Windstance IV monks are still a bit behind where they once were, but it does seem better that they get the bonus to main hand attacks rather than off-hands.

[zed1]

fighter capstone and zeal applys to all styles, only tempest 3 needs 2 weapons

Gotcha. I started writing my post before Eladrin's latest numbers.

[Dark_Helmet]

I think that the grind pint is an important one that has not been brought up often enough. It's not healthy for a game to have a fighting style that is better simply because it requires more grinding. However, it's equally not healthy to have a fighting style that is as good as the others but requires twice more grinding.

Ideally, it would be best if one-handed weapon dropped somewhere between two or thee times more often than two-handed weapons so that the demand for the two would be similar. As for crafted weapons, like Green Steel, two-handed weapon should require twice the number of incredients than one-handed weapons so that the griding would remain comparable.

Sorry, but I find it too complex having to grind more to be able to craft a larger weapon than a smaller. So a dagger should be 1/4 the cost of a greatsword? Should halflings grind 1/2 the amount for armor?

I think re-grinding to change your existing equipment is an important point, but don't change the existing crafting based on size of weapons or how you would wield them.

[gott_ist_tot]

It seems we have evolved an interesting sub-thread comparing TWF and THF and ways to make these balanced in respect to each other. Something many feel, it seems, should be done.

Let me say one thing. Balancing THF and TWF is a matter so important we should not have this done as a side effect of 'fixing lag'. As the 'lag' fixing will be a main concern here, and the resulting twf/thf rebalancing deserves a fix on its own. Which may not be possible in the future, as this may break 'the fix' it'll be reliant on!

[Chai]

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent.

Directly nerfing them from doing "some aoe damage" to "zero aoe dmg" is a big deal.

Gathering up the attention of many foes, and sometimes to the detriment of the party by waking up fascinated foes always seems like an important and intended part of the two handed fighting style to me. I very much doubt the devs disagree with that.

Im not qualified? LOL

I am as qualified as you are.

And I still believe you can clearly see why they are nerfing it. Maybe you dont agree with it, but you can clearly see it.

The devs dont disagree with it, they just weighed the point you made about the intended AOE damage against the unintended playstyle of twitching and made a decision. Its a decision you and many others disagree with, but its a decision nonetheless.

[Cyr]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

Translated does this mean that tempest 2 does not stack with STWF. This is an important question, because it means no double strikes on the off hand hook. It also means that Tempest 1-2 splashes will not really grant any benefit to TWF speed which is a very major change from before.

In other words, normal = 20% and +20% per TWF feat and with STWF you have 100%....

[Alintalkin]

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent.

Directly nerfing them from doing "some aoe damage" to "zero aoe dmg" is a big deal.

Gathering up the attention of many foes, and sometimes to the detriment of the party by waking up fascinated foes always seems like an important and intended part of the two handed fighting style to me. I very much doubt the devs disagree with that.

I have to agree with shade here. You would have to be a Dev to tell us that it was not suppose to be used. Movement is a key advantage in THF that is almost a reason to take it in and of itself. Twitch fighting, simply put, I see as a trade off, faster attack for less of an attack bonus. It had it own bit of fairness, and it usually falls apart in lag situations.


Edit: Oh and on the subject of STWF: I prefer it to be implemented then not, better to have a option then no option at all.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'm on board with the static damage change instead. Wouldn't effect overall DPS, and would reduce the lag. Just give us the average of current damage output. Anything 1d6 would do 3.5 average damage. Just round I guess, up or down I'm sure wouldn't make a big difference compared to the change this topic is about. Should reduce lag quite a bit, without unbalancing classes.

And so would end any claim that this game had anything to do with D&D.

[Galacticus]

Instead of trying to fix the lag with something that doesnt' cause it how about reducing the size of the raid party to 10 from 12 and adjusting the mobs HP to compensate. Or does the dungeon scaling system do that already. In a smaller
raid party, which I have part of there is minimal to no lag and we've been able
to complete the raid even if we had 6 in group without any difficulty.

Reduce the amount of dungeon AOEs and spawns. There's alot going on in the
background in TOD for instance that adds to the lag besides TWFs. Ex. 15
shadowfiends chasing or caster around.

But to do this without giving the paying customer compensation for all
the invested time and effort ex. like deconstruction, will be cruel and will turn
off alot of players, myself included.

[Brennie]

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.


My question is - What happens to a Tempest II or III ranger who takes STWF? 120% chance to proc offhand weapon? Does STWF constitute a completely wasted feat on a ranger then (or does 120% offhand proc give some kind of benefit?)

In my estimation, any player unfamiliar with the new system might take STWF simply because it is a two-weapon fighting feat, which intuitively would mean it makes two weapon fighting character better! And on a ranger, this seems like it would have even less benefit than say, skill focus: swim

A quick and easy fix is making tempest II give STWF feat for free *instead* of 10% offhand proc bonus (Effectively giving the same benefit under a different name to prevent weird stacking). Whether this would cause problems giving level 12 rangers a feat that only level 16 full BaB characters can get is debatable.

EDIT: Except that STWF gives 20% and Tempest 2 gives 10%... So a Tempest II would end up with 110% proc chance >_> but if everythign over 100% doesn't matter anyway (Effectively a 100% cap) then it will still be a net gain of 10%

Also, i do petition to leave STWF out of it. It will put TWF Bards and Rogues and FvS and possibly, but probably not, monks much farther behind full BaB TWFers.

[Chai]

I have to agree with shade here. You would have to be a Dev to tell us that it was not suppose to be used. Movement is a key advantage in THF that is almost a reason to take it in and of itself. Twitch fighting, simply put, I see as a trade off, faster attack for less of an attack bonus. It had it own bit of fairness, and it usually falls apart in lag situations.

While I understand what you are saying, I think the Devs ACTIONS are speaking louder than WORDS when voicing their stances on issues, which is clearly the case here.

[kailiea]

I'll toss out a semi-wacky idea, which would not maintain the existing game balance:
Make the chance for offhand attacks with the TWF feat series somehow dependent on actual current dexterity.

There's a lot of interesting implications, blah blah, I won't distract from this thread by elaborating on them all. It could be said that high dexterity is not currently useful enough in melee, and it would be interesting to let characters with very good dex gain the same TWF benefits as the Tempest line gets (maybe with the restriction that it'll only work with finessable weapons, meaning no khopeshes)

I don't post often but this idea I can get behind. I think that a dex based rogue or fighter with a 40+ dex shouldn't miss 45 percent of the time just because they aren't a tempest 3. Our stat choices should actually mean something sorta like they do in PnP, otherwise whats the point of even having them.

[Souless]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

This is another type of nerf......

NERF the muticlass builds.....that is what this is....

the fact that you r defending this nerf means it is comming...... and wasting my time with feedback

have the % increase with the levels of tempest ranger, kensi ftr, whatever.....is just another way to nerf muticlass builds as well....since all of my melee toons (with the exception of monk) are muticlass builds you are impacting my entire game experience.

I have suffered through your nerf's before...and i probabaly will be able to fix this nerf as well...it is just extreemly frustrating to have my builds get nerfed again and again....

guess its time to change all my races to WF pick up an epic sos and stand in line with the other cookie cutter toons and call it a day....

The Bytcher~

[Borror0]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.
Would you mind sharing your reasoning with us, so we can agree or disagree with it? :)

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.
Okay. It was not clear in the table, since you didn't precise it didn't stack.

If you are to add STWF in, Tempest II seems like a good place. Tempest II is quite meh at the moment.

[Ethias]

Ideally, it would be best if one-handed weapon dropped somewhere between two or thee times more often than two-handed weapons so that the demand for the two would be similar. As for crafted weapons, like Green Steel, two-handed weapon should require twice the number of incredients than one-handed weapons so that the griding would remain comparable.

If we are using today's costs, I'd rather see a decrease in cost of one handers, rather than an increase in cost of 2handers.

[Aspenor]

http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/trapper_s_forum/MoreCowbell.jpg

[Krell]

I'm all for reducing lag although I will say as much as some complain about it on the forums, I don't see it much myself. At worst I don't see people swinging at Harry but we still beat him down, get our heals, and finish the quest. If making some physics changes helps, I'm all for it.

The problem I see is trying to roll a play style balance into this change at the same time. I'm sure the proposed physics changes could be rolled in with numbers that on average would maintain the current play style balance.

As you have seen from other unrelated threads, players get most upset when they feel their time has been wasted, and the level of dissatisfaction is usually directly proportional to the amount of time they feel has been wasted.

The desire to make TWF and THF roughly equal seems flawed considering the larger investment required. I'll quote a previous post below for details. To draw the connection to wasted time, consider what the average player with one or more TWF characters is thinking.

- I could have made a THF character instead and only had to farm shroud for one tier 3 weapon instead of two. My considerable shroud farming time has been wasted.

- I could have made a TWF character with more strength because of no TWF pre-reqs, better to hit because of no off hand penalty, more inventory, and more feats to play with. My time leveling and equiping my TWF characters feels wasted.

Personally, the increased number of magical item slots as a TWF benefit doesn't mean much to me or people I regularly play with. I created TWF characters for the highest DPS and would like to think the considerable investment in time was worth the results compared to other classes. If I could have achieved the same results in half the time, I would feel like my time was wasted.

I have many other characters for non-dps purposes so I'm not saying that DPS is all that matters. My point is that if players feel they could have achieved the same results with THF with much less of an investment than TWF as a result of these changes, they will feel a considerable amount of their time has been wasted.

A lot of game mechanics with Feats, Enhancements, and Equipment is based on the idea that a bigger investment results in a higher value. With these changes I don't believe there is a substantial enough value in TWF over THF considering the investment required. Factor in the number of players that have invested in TWF characters and you have a lot of people unhappy over what they perceive as wasted time.

I suggest factoring the human nature into this change because perception is reality.


Quote:
Why would the goal be to get TWF and THF close to each other? Why would anyone put in the bigger investment to get TWF if it not better than THF?

TWF requires dexterity and strength, while THF only needs strength.
TWF has a penalty on attack rolls, while THF does not.
THF has more damage against groups, while TWF has no such bonus.
TWF requires obtaining twice the number of weapons, which closely equates to twice the Shroud runs.
TWF requires devoting twice the inventory slots to weapons.
TWF loses more of the effectiveness if you don't have all three feats.

TWF has some advantages too, such as an increased number of magical item slots available for customization (since we don't currently put more treasure effects on two handed weapons), and potentially more versatility.

[Brennie]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

But this does not prevent a Tempest II ranger from taking the STWF feat for exactly 0% additional benefit. Unless Tempest II locks out access to the STWF feat.

[Ethias]

Would it be possible to roll STWF into the other TWF feats instead?

[krud]

Your not qualified to say that.

Attacks while moving are a core intrinsic part of the game that will always be a part of the game. What we're talking about is nothing more then playing the game and making use of that feature to it's fullest extent. Nor will these changes have a big impact on that.

But most "twitch" based fighting styles have some kind of basis in the rules, e.g. shot on the run, spring attack, flanking enhancements, etc. THF twitch on the other hand is simply taking advantage of some animation quirks to get more attacks. Not much different than the hop, skip, and jump bug that was in game long ago, imo.

[Boromirs]

For those of you saying the original numbers were bonkers way too severe (which they were) I think this was a under-promise, listen/compromise, bring out ACTUAL proposal type of deal. Im pretty sure their PRIMARY intention was to nerf TWF (and to a lesser extent THF through twitching) secondary might be lag mitigation (but for only 3 quests???)

So, the numbers we are seeing now are the actual numbers the devs hashed out to deal with TWF. I really don't care as long as THF gets nerf'd alongside (ESPECIALLY eSoS ...YOU MUST NERF THAT WEAPON). ... and boost S&B please they need a ton of love.

[testing1234]

got a small idea not sure if its "great" but its extremely targeted against the few instances were you have dps lagg shroud and tod.

very simple give the bosses in tod/shroud either teleport or short time invisibility/incorporeal at even intervals. hardly a ideal solution but it adress only the very few raids were you have dps lagg.
if boss is invisible or 100% incorporeal he could still be attacking while immune to all melee damage.

if the trouble is only on the mad high hp raid bosses we see the dps lagg why not nerf or boost them instead of players? i doubt the raid bosses will complain as much

[Aspenor]

For those of you saying the original numbers were bonkers way too severe (which they were) I think this was a under-promise, listen/compromise, bring out ACTUAL proposal type of deal. Im pretty sure their PRIMARY intention was to nerf TWF (and to a lesser extent THF through twitching) secondary might be lag mitigation (but for only 3 quests???)

So, the numbers we are seeing now are the actual numbers the devs hashed out to deal with TWF. I really don't care as long as THF gets nerf'd alongside (ESPECIALLY eSoS ...YOU MUST NERF THAT WEAPON). ... and boost S&B please they need a ton of love.

I must respectfully disagree on the "nerf ESOS" sentiment.

[Visty]

got a small idea not sure if its "great" but its extremely targeted against the few instances were you have dps lagg shroud and tod.

very simple give the bosses in tod/shroud either teleport or short time invisibility/incorporeal at even intervals. hardly a ideal solution but it adress only the very few raids were you have dps lagg.
if boss is invisible or 100% incorporeal he could still be attacking while immune to all melee damage.

if the trouble is only on the mad high hp raid bosses we see the dps lagg why not nerf or boost them instead of players? i doubt the raid bosses will complain as much

this would kill the raids for those which dont have the dps to cause dps lag

[Angelus_dead]

I have to agree with shade here. You would have to be a Dev to tell us that it was not suppose to be used.
All it takes is a little common sense. Simply imagine you were a developer suggesting adding the effect to the game mechanics, and try to make it to the end of the sentence with a straight face.

[Borror0]

If we are using today's costs, I'd rather see a decrease in cost of one handers, rather than an increase in cost of 2handers.
It would be much simpler to double the number of ingredients required for two-handers' recipes and also double the drop rate of each ingredients. You would arrive at the same result but it wouldn't require a complete redesign of all recipes.

[Arvess]

I don't really like the concept of this change. I would support piggybacking the offhand physics check on the main hand check. This is a role playing game so abstraction is a given. And the physics check is a behind the scenes calculation.

So considering all the previous information in this thread, what would haste do? If the intent is to slow down the rate of attacks by increasing proc rates of another (off-hand) attack, is the 5% extra that alacrity, zeal and windstance really breaking the system? Who doesn't beat on the red dude without haste pretty much the entire time? What would the end effect be? You get a few less offhand attacks because the offhand has been randomized to include a 25% reduction and a few people lose their 5-7% stacking attack speed?

It took me a few tries to get into DDO. One thing I liked about this game was the combat system. It seemed real and immediate without being overly realistic. If, in real life, I pick up a single weapon, I have a good measure of control on that weapon. When I put something in my offhand, I don't have the same power and accuracy. The game mechanics makes sense to me in this way. If I invest time to train a skill like fighting with both hands, I expect the efficiency and prowess of the attack to get better. I don't expect to randomly proc extra attacks. Especially in my main hand.

Dungeons and Dragons is first and foremost a role playing game. Good role playing is about telling stories. Every character goes from newborn weakling to something else. Sometimes its uberness and sometimes its a gimpy dead end. But each attribute, each skill, each feat tells the story of how that character grew. It reflects the choices that were made. Did she become more dexterous at the cost of tremendous strength? The original feats were built from this concept of developing character which is why a lot of them are rarely picked. To switch feats from character development to a game mechanic fix is a move in the opposite direction.

[Aspenor]

All it takes is a little common sense. Simply imagine you were a developer suggesting adding the effect to the game mechanics, and try to make it to the end of the sentence with a straight face.

Indeed. It's essentially no different than the "tap a button on your keyboard while tapping your attack button to swing twice as fast" bug that was around so long ago.

[maddmatt70]

I disagree with several other posters and feel stwf should be and actually should have always been implemented. I am a little concerned on what that would mean from a respec (if 19 dex were required) i.e. I don't feel it would be right to force a bunch of characters to reroll, but if it is just another feat that is required then I am onboard. Fighters and rangers historically are the twf characters in ddo and this feat benefits those classes. A rogue has the detriment of less attacks which is accurate with the way pnp works.

I find this alternative suggestion by Eladrin strange in that I am not sure how this helps lag or at least helps the lag very much at all which was a part of the rationale put forth for this change originally. A 100% proc rate is not that much different from how things works now.

[R0cksteady]

I'm REALLY hoping STWF will only require 17 dex.

[Cashiry]

I find this alternative suggestion by Eladrin strange in that I am not sure how this helps lag or at least helps the lag very much at all which was a part of the rationale put forth for this change originally. A 100% proc rate is not that much different from how things works now.


I was thinking the same thing... If this is in fact a way to improve lag? why is the option there for 100% proc..

If this is in fact a way to lower TWF DPS in disquise of fixing DPS lag, I would say just come out and say we want to NERF TWF.

Don't make the same mistake you did with Dungeon Alert, I get more Lag from DA then I do from anything else. More spells/procs occuring from DA Lags the system.
and no, I don't zerg.

[jcdy10101010]

why not just use the proper equipment to handle the dps lag issues. with my twf builds i have a wepon in my off hand cause i want it to proc as well as my with my main.

[Ethias]

It would be much simpler to double the number of ingredients required for two-handers' recipes and also double the drop rate of each ingredients. You would arrive at the same result but it wouldn't require a complete redesign of all recipes.

Doubling ingredients would accomplish the same thing, you're right. I missed that in your post; my apologies. That would be an easier solution, yeah.

I would also like to echo that changing the way respecs work in this game would make this change, and any other, much easier to swallow.

[kruggar]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

but why spend 3 feats to go tempest igf u can spend one and have almost the same benefits ?

[Borror0]

A 100% proc rate is not that much different from how things works now.
"Some things are very light, performance-wise. 'Chance to proc' is one of the lightest calculations available. Actually, even those chance to proc checks are improvements, since it's no longer checking your feats constantly, but instead looking at a cached value."

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2990567#post2990567

[Ethias]

I was thinking the same thing... If this is in fact a way to improve lag? why is the option there for 100% proc..

If this is in fact a way to lower TWF DPS in disquise of fixing DPS lag, I would say just come out and say we want to NERF TWF. Don't make the same mistake you did with Dungeon Alert

If you go back to the initial post:


Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack

I assume piggybacking at 100% is still better than the current system

edit: doh, got beaten to it.

[Coldin]

Ick. All this talk of doubling shroud ingredients to make Two Handed weapons is a bit insane in my opinion. Wouldn't this make going TWF better than THF simply because even while you're working on the second weapon, you still have the first to play with.

[Angelus_dead]

Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.
...
A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack
...
It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements
An interesting side note:
Will the attacks made as part of Cleave (and similar abilities) include the standard chances for offhand strikes, double strike, and glancing blows?

Hopefully the answer is yes, because those features become relatively weaker as the character gains bonuses to the rate of normal attacks (as evaluated here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=211259)). In addition, I suspect that Cleave (and the Great, Supreme, and Whirlwind variants) would remain underpowered even after that buff, so it could be given an additional +25% Doublestrike during the action.

(As a sanity check for if Cleave is good enough, activating Cleave with two monsters in range should never reduce your total damage output to less than you'd have gotten attacking normally)

[Gol]

I'm very against adding STWF for the following reasons:

1) It's meant to be an epic feat, and all arguments about power aside, characters don't get epic feats till level 21.
2) 19 Dex. You'd break soooo many builds it's not even funny.
3) 16 BAB req. 3/4 BAB classes simply cannot qualify without splashing Fighter levels at the end of their build. 1/2 BAB classes have no chance of ever qualifying. They already have to splash Fighter at the end just for GTWF.

[Galacticus]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

What you're still saying is we're going to nerf you.

Change the amount of things goin on in the background and you'll solve the problem.
I remember clearly when you had the marketplace tent event the instances were filled
with dozens of toons and constant spawns...the lag was the worst I've ever experienced in my gaming life.
You're not going to fix anything with what you're doing just nerfing...

A NERF IS A NERF IS A NERF!!!!

[Coldin]

I'm very against adding STWF for the following reasons:

1) It's meant to be an epic feat, and all arguments about power aside, characters don't get epic feats till level 21.
2) 19 Dex. You'd break soooo many builds it's not even funny.
3) 16 BAB req. 3/4 BAB classes simply cannot qualify without splashing Fighter levels at the end of their build. 1/2 BAB classes have no chance of ever qualifying. They already have to splash Fighter at the end just for ITWF.

They could always change the pre-reqs.

But yeah. Assuming they were the same, a pure monk would never have 100% off hand attacks.

[Angelus_dead]

I disagree with several other posters and feel stwf should be and actually should have always been implemented. I am a little concerned on what that would mean from a respec (if 19 dex were required) i.e. I don't feel it would be right to force a bunch of characters to reroll, but if it is just another feat that is required then I am onboard.
Why would you want to nerf Rogues?

[AMDarkwolf]

not to flame, but wouldn't it be a 'less stupid' approach to have the client 'figure' the damage, then upload it as a set value? As it is all the damage is calculated server side, then spat out at all the players, with each 'part' of the damage displayed separately, (Which is why turning off those options WILL reduce the lag, u just do not 'process' it)

Just make clients get damage from each 'proc' gather them up and send it to the server, which sends it back to display to everyone, might not be pretty, but seeing '100 damage' might be better than '5 slash, 15 acid, 30 shock--- etc'

[suitepotato]

This still remains the same as DA. Aside from DA not actually doing anything about lag, even if it had, it would be the same as your car not being able to do the proper highway speed, so you instead merely drive on the secondary roads (side streets) instead of fixing the car. This is the same thing. Instead of fixing the problem of the hardware and its architecture not scaling correctly, reduce what is done with the hardware. This is going well beyond mere optimization of how things get done, to changing WHAT gets done.

You don't quit a job twenty miles away because your car gets a problem and can only reliably make a five mile trip, you get the car fixed. The point is to play the game the way the game is designed, not redesign the game around underperforming architecture.

[Borror0]

Wouldn't this make going TWF better than THF simply because even while you're working on the second weapon, you still have the first to play with.
To a certain extent, it would but the end goal is more important than the progress in most people's. People tend to be more resentful that someone had to grind less for equal benefits or are more powerful than they could ever be. It's not flawless but it's a significant improvement IMO.

[Mister_Peace]

I'm left wiht no fast way to gather agro on a large group of enemies.

Doesn't FB require the Cleave feat?

[Nezichiend]

Cool, I already got a seal and a scroll for the epic SoS. I guess I will TR my awesome twf barbarian, that I love to play (a lot) into a cookie cutter wf pure thf barb. Please, NO.
I am usually cool with big updates (I have never complained about DA unless someone was being dumb). This.... This is something I am getting VERY upset over. Why don't you just make 1 (one, one, ONE) physics check instead of nerfing? Right now you are making 1 check, and 0.15 seconds later, making ANOTHER ONE. Who is going to move in 0.15 seconds? Especially a raid boss, where this happens the most? Why don't you just do the smart thing and make 1 check per MH swing, and just ASSUME that the monster is there for the OH.

[zealous]

Indeed. It's essentially no different than the "tap a button on your keyboard while tapping your attack button to swing twice as fast" bug that was around so long ago.
Ah, but there is a major difference. Tapping the button was dead easy, twitching requires timing and is made more difficult by actually being in combat.

I was originally very sceptical to it but after trying it through a char or two I must say that it's one of the best things in the game, purely on account of making combat more fluent and fun.

Twitching also brings ddo closer to PnP, bear with me...
PnP: Multiple attacks with decreasing attack bonus. Higher damage per round against low ac foes.
DDO: Twitching gives higher number of attacks at the cost of attack bonus, same as PnP. The main benefit is that you can take 5foot steps without suffering loss of attacks.
---
Regarding the change I can kind of digest the changed numbers. 2wf will suffer a slight decreas bringing it close to non-twitch 2h, more notable for classes where 2wf has pronounced advantages. At the same time twitching will loose glancing blows bringing it closer to non-twitch and staying ~proportional to 2wf.
Gut feeling only, will crunch numbers when/if I get the time.

The notable thing for me is that I think I'll go "omg thass so kewl" more from seeing double strikes and getting streaks of off hand procs compared to the relative same same of holding the attack button.

Same tactic as the haste change in first presenting a horrendous version before presenting the real version? =)

[Ebondevil]

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

First of all I should say I don't as yet have a TWF character but I am thinking of having one in the future, I was actually looking forward to building one in Mod 5.

That said, my gut feeling on this is that it's a terrible Idea, from experience with proc based combat in other games it doesn't work well, the randomness is annoying and the way it currently looks to be laid out will leave TWF at lower levels virtually useless if 4 in 5 off hand attacks are guaranteed to miss, new players gut feelings on TWF will be that it's not worth it and are less likely to persue the option. Even with the Two Weapon Fighting feat 60% of the off hand attacks will be automatic misses for no apparent reason.

Not to get into too many mechanical details, but from your post it seems to me that the problems are the collision detection, so rather than doing something drastic, just have the off hand attack piggyback off the mainhand attack for the collision detection, reducing the calculations needed for it drastically.

Having the off hand weapon only having a chance of hitting, followed by the normal attack roll would seem to just add more code crunching in rather than reducing it, which makes it sounds like you're attempting to Nerf TWF rather than fix the lag problem.

As I understand it from what you've said, For each Main Hand attack Followed by an Off Hand attack you get the following:

Current Calculations required:
Main Hand Collision Detection, Main Hand Attack Check, Main Hand Damage Rolls, Off Hand Collision detection, Off Hand Attack Check, Off Hand Damage Rolls
Up to 8.

Proposed Calculations required:
Main Hand Collision Detection, Main Hand Attack Check, Main Hand Damage Rolls, Off Hand Proc Check, Off Hand Attack Check, Off Hand Damage Check.
Up to 8.

What I propose:
Main Hand Collision Detection, Main Hand Attack Check, Main Hand Damage Rolls, Off Hand Attack Check, Off Hand Damage Check.
Up to 7.

Personally I feel Proc based is bad, and that there's no real need for a second Collision detection check, if the Main Hand is within the collision zone then the off hand should be as well.

However, the speed boosts would become less required since the off hand collision detection is no longer required so the speed boosts previously mentioned could also in theory be removed. But that should really be a separate matter.

[Quijonsith]

First, monks aren't the fastest attackers. Rogues and Fighters both get 30% attack speed boosts which put them WAY ahead of monks much of the time. And while I don't know what a twitching acrobat on haste boost wearing madstones gets for attacks per second with a staff, I know it's really high. Regardless "DPS" lag happens with all barbarians in shroud, this clearly has NOTHING to do with monks OR TWF.

Second, as for optimization, a monk strikes a little over 4 attacks per second typically. The number of floating point operations, even unoptimized and in 3 dimensions to calculate if the two objects are in range for the strike to land can be counted on one hand. With the number of operations of a server being counted in the GFLOPS thinking that cutting down on a few operations per second will have any significant impact is misguided to say the least.

Third, it's not impacting the server the way you think it is. If you've both kited in and meleed in part 2 of ToD you'd know that being any distance away from the melee gives you a dramatically different experience than being on the platform with the melee group. It's not the instance choking. It's not the server choking.

Fourth, why the lag in part 1 of shroud going up the steps to the chests after the final, NW portal is broken? Everyone gets it. Maybe you should look at that instead of jumping on the "DPS lag" that, while a catchy term, is only something that people who don't understand software could believe is a problem.

BTW, fix the zone/character changing memory leak problem that is causing the majority of the game crashes. It's been pointed out to you in the forums for months now. Fix the bloody thing.

I have to agree whole heartedly with oweieie here. I've kited part 2 of ToD on my monk a number of times and every time I do I experience zero, that's right ZERO, lag, but every time I'm in melee in the same part there's huge lag and it's worse the more dps we have, especially with more barbarians. It has nothing to do with TWF or monks.

[Alintalkin]

I'm very against adding STWF for the following reasons:

1) It's meant to be an epic feat, and all arguments about power aside, characters don't get epic feats till level 21.
2) 19 Dex. You'd break soooo many builds it's not even funny.
3) 16 BAB req. 3/4 BAB classes simply cannot qualify without splashing Fighter levels at the end of their build. 1/2 BAB classes have no chance of ever qualifying. They already have to splash Fighter at the end just for ITWF.

If they are keeping it as they said they would it would be as posted here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1448752#post1448752 which states that the Bab requirement would be 15, though I still agree on the overall unfairness of the idea of STWF with 1/2 Bab classes and 19 dex

Edit: My apologies, realized that 3/4 BAB classes won't have a feat at a lvl when they have 15 Bab and therefore be unable to get it scratch that. This is all bad news with STWF.

[maddmatt70]

Why would you want to nerf Rogues?

Oh they can improve the rogue pres to the FB and Kensai quality level nothing is stopping them from doing so. Quite honestly the assasin pre even with 3d6 more SA damage is substandard in DDO and the mechanic and acrobat are both shoddy. In pnp a rogue can only get to bab 15 by staying pure and hence miss that last attack which stwf would account for.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Okay.
I don't see the point in changing form the current function to the percentages, in reagrds to TWF.

Alacrity and Physics checks I'm already agreed upon. But why change to percentages?

[Daehawk]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

I think this table is fine. If you want every MH = Every OH get STWF. If you're fine with just 80% or a feat starved class get just GTWF like you normally have been and you'll be fine.

This would also give the Monks the double strike that they are wanting right now. Tempest would get a 5%, Monks/Fighters/Paladins getting 10% double strike.

[Brennie]

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

More problems:

Currently a level 20 tempest ranger has +10% attack speed and +1 extra offhand a attack, while a level 20 fighter has just a +10% extra attack speed. So a 20 ranger should, in theory, be one-offhand-attack's worth better at TWF than a 20 fighter.

Level 20 Fighter with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF = 10% double strike/100% offhand proc

Level 20 Ranger with Tempest III = 5% double strike/100% offhand proc.

As you can see, the fighter is a BETTER TWF than the ranger! This, i think, is a problem

Other comparisons -

20 Ranger Arcane Archer with STWF (1 feat investment, easily attainble with archer dex high enough to meet preq) = 0% double strike/100% offhand (Only 5% double strike behind a tempest ranger, losing only sheild bonus and to hit bonus, which not many people care about in late game anyway... but with pretty spectacular archer abilities to back them up, and no wasting 4 feats to get tempest III)

20 Rogue (Or other 3/4 BaB class) with TWF, ITWF, GTWF = 0% double strike/80% offhand proc (Fighters and rogues used to have the same offhand attack amount, fighters can now get potentially 20% more)

EDIT - Suggestion: Abandon STWF. Let all non-ranger tempests cap their offhand proc rate at 80%. This will bring fighters back in line with rogues, will seperate Arcane Archers melee from Tempest Melee, and will make Tempest the best Two Weapon Fighters again.

[Delacroix21]

I want to see both "instinctive feedback" as well as actual gameplay feedback once it his Lamannia. I can't say when Lamannia will be going live with these changes (that's beyond my control), but I figured better to get this out early.


Correct.

This is still a dps NERF to MONKS, when compared to rangers and other TWF characters. Why does tempest outhit monks in wind stance iv? They used to be tied at +10% stackable haste (the extra attack at tempest 3 hardly warrants a 25% boost over monks!).


Monk unarmed is allready the lowest dps there is! This honestly needs to be adjusted!


In addition... tying the "off-hand" procs to wind stance alone is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea! Right now Wind Stance is only 10% (when hasted) faster then the other stances, with this change it will be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ahead of the other stances! Just make wind stance a 25% Enhancement bonus to attack speed, so (vs haste) it only remains 10% above the other stances.

[Xyfiel]

So this is how we increase ranged dps?:p

[Angelus_dead]

the way it currently looks to be laid out will leave TWF at lower levels virtually useless if 4 in 5 off hand attacks are guaranteed to miss
Hi, TWF is already virtually useless at low levels for that reason.


new players gut feelings on TWF will be that it's not worth it and are less likely to persue the option.
New players do not generally notice, partly because they don't have enough experience with how much damage they could be getting from other styles.

[jcdy10101010]

death to the warchanter

[Chai]

not to flame, but wouldn't it be a 'less stupid' approach to have the client 'figure' the damage, then upload it as a set value? As it is all the damage is calculated server side, then spat out at all the players, with each 'part' of the damage displayed separately, (Which is why turning off those options WILL reduce the lag, u just do not 'process' it)

Just make clients get damage from each 'proc' gather them up and send it to the server, which sends it back to display to everyone, might not be pretty, but seeing '100 damage' might be better than '5 slash, 15 acid, 30 shock--- etc'

How many ways can we figure out how to exploit client side damage calcs?

We got people who figured out how to "spaz" and "twitch" to increase their attack speed animation at the cost of AB which doesnt even matter when well geared enough. I think there should be an office pool to see how long it would take for someone to exploit this type of thing counting from the minute its implemented.

By the way, we are measuring in picaseconds for the pool. 5 bucks gets you in.

[QuantumFX]

So Eladrin,

Will the unarmed animation be scaled back?

Fun thought: Could Damage action boosts be converted to a +# to damage and a similar +% to doublestrikes? (Ex. Barb Damage Boost IV becomes +5 Damage/+5% chance to proc a doublestrike.)

[TiranBlade]

While I will say, I do like the Idea of the System and it's function (Almost the same system basis for Everquest for Dual Wield, except DW was a skill set the higher the skill the more your off hand would proc). This is fundamentaly game changing and in a way, while I won't be one of them, it will cause many people to leave or quit.

Also, from what I can see Superior Two Weapon Fighting is going to function just like Perfect Two Weapon Fighting from Epic Level Handbook/Complete Warrior giving you that 4th off hand attack to your character, or for those who know it from Neverwinter Nights 2 where it gives you more attacks as you gain a higher number of attacks in a round.

I honestly think Superior is an excelent Solution. Because in the Pen and Paper game you only get a Max of 3 Off Hand Attacks pre-Epic. Giving you a feat to gain a forth is and excellent solution.

My issue though is, I don't like the Idea of the game straying too far away from the Pen and Paper game.

Question 1 for the Devs: If you can code a bypass into the coding which gave you a 100% chance to proc on a certin attack sequence while having a certain feat wouldn't you not have to have the physics check?

Question 2 for the Devs: Even if you recode the game to a proc squence to remove the physics check, in order to proc wouldn't the game still need to make physics check to determine if you have a weapon in your off hand in order for the game to register the ability to gain a proc roll?

Example: Main Hand Attack End(go to Determine Off Hand Proc) -> Determine Off Hand Proc(Physics Check Off Hand Weapon(If (TRUE: Then go to Proc Possible),(NO: Then go to Off Hand End)-> Proc Possible -> Proc Roll(Roll % and Add Mod)

I know this isn't a completely accurate account of how your coding works but it seems that you would still have to make the check, also I haven't done coding in about 4 or so years so I may be out of line in this assumption, correct me if I am please.

[mehlinda]

I haven't come close to reading all the posts in this thread but I am told by people who write code who also play DDO that 1's and 2's and zeros never change and that "DPS" lag is a myth..that in fact the lag is caused by all the motion and graphics concentrated in one area and having to be sent to 12 different computers is what causes the lag..in areas of raids where people are not all bunched up in one exact spot fighting I rarely experience any lag and the explanations I got make sense..to me this all seems like another form of re-balancing classes and such like removing barbarian crit rage and such.

I will refrain from real comment until I see the result of implementation..but I would like to know if Turbine will roll this back some or in part if it doesn't actually solve the lag issue.

[Chai]

I haven't come close to reading all the posts in this thread but I am told by people who write code who also play DDO that 1's and 2's and zeros never change and that "DPS" lag is a myth..that in fact the lag is caused by all the motion and graphics concentrated in one area and having to be sent to 12 different computers is what causes the lag..in areas of raids where people are not all bunched up in one exact spot fighting I rarely experience any lag and the explanations I got make sense..to me this all seems like another form of re-balancing classes and such like removing barbarian crit rage and such.

I will refrain from real comment until I see the result of implementation..but I would like to know if Turbine will roll this back some or in part if it doesn't actually solve the lag issue.

If this was true, the lag would not be happening in the same places at the same times for everyone. People play this game on a wide range of systems with a wide variety of video cards, and if what you are saying is correct, then we wouldnt all be lagging to the point where each one of us only sees our own toon attacking in raids, and only when the high melee DPS is being laid down.

[Coldin]

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80% * Only when wielding two weapons.

More problems:

Currently a level 20 tempest ranger has +10% attack speed and +1 extra offhand a attack, while a level 20 fighter has just a +10% extra attack speed. So a 20 ranger should, in theory, be one-offhand-attack's worth better at TWF than a 20 fighter.

Level 20 Fighter with TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF = 10% double strike/100% offhand proc

Level 20 Ranger with Tempest III = 5% double strike/100% offhand proc.

As you can see, the fighter is a BETTER TWF than the ranger! This, i think, is a problem

Other comparisons -

20 Ranger Arcane Archer with STWF (1 feat investment, easily attainble with archer dex high enough to meet preq) = 0% double strike/100% offhand (Only 5% double strike behind a tempest ranger, losing only sheild bonus and to hit bonus, which not many people care about in late game anyway... but with pretty spectacular archer abilities to back them up, and no wasting 4 feats to get tempest III)

20 Rogue (Or other 3/4 BaB class) with TWF, ITWF, GTWF = 0% double strike/80% offhand proc (Fighters and rogues used to have the same offhand attack amount, fighters can now get potentially 20% more)

EDIT - Suggestion: Abandon STWF. Let all non-ranger tempests cap their offhand proc rate at 80%. This will bring fighters back in line with rogues, will seperate Arcane Archers melee from Tempest Melee, and will make Tempest the best Two Weapon Fighters again.

*shrug* No reason why a fighter can't be a better TWF than a ranger. Rangers get a bunch of other nice things like spells and favored enemies.

Rogues are a bit screwed in all of this. Though I'd rather see rogues improved in damage in other ways, like boosting sneak attack as a whole to really turn them into burst DPS characters.

[Chai]

While I will say, I do like the Idea of the System and it's function (Almost the same system basis for Everquest for Dual Wield, except DW was a skill set the higher the skill the more your off hand would proc). This is fundamentaly game changing and in a way, while I won't be one of them, it will cause many people to leave or quit.



No one will leave or quit, or if they do it will be a small quantity. This is proven by all the other feedback threads with large amounts of disagreement, where people stayed. Read: WoP nerf, and F2P implementation. Lots of threats of leaving the game, and very few keeping the promise.

[lord_of_rage]

My question with STWF is what will the dex requirement be? I remeber when it was proposed originally it was a 19 base dex. Will that still be the case? Or will you reduce it to a 17 or 18 dex. I know most people have been building a 15 dex with a +2 tome for itwf and gtwf. If you do add stwf I request that you keep it to an 18 dex max. It will allow most of the player base to hit it with a simple +3 tome vs having to by a respec to aquire the feat, and reduce other stats. Paladins who are already extremely stat intensive would become even more so with a 19 base dex requirement.

As a paladin player I was worried. The new numbers dont look as bad. It just means I dont take extend and take STWF instead. Im cool with that but with a 4 feat requirement please dont impose a daunting dex requirement on top of the high costs that twf already is. If you do keep the latest proposed numbers and make stwf more easily aquired I will be more than happy to keep my favorite characters twf. Thank you.

[Angelus_dead]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.
That's like presenting TWF characters with a choice between a nerf to their damage or to their feat slots. It begs the question of if nerfing them was a good idea in the first place.

EDIT:
Look at how reducing offhand DPS and adding a feat to get it back would effect the various classes:
Tempest Ranger: Hardly noticeable.
Fighter: Low effect, because there weren't enough combat feats to start with. But he must reincarnate for more dex.
Barbarian: Harsh, because it's tough to open a feat slot.
Paladin: Tougher still, because raising dex is harder for this MAD class.
Rogue, Bard, Monk, Cleric, FVS: They're hardest hit, because even if they could somehow open a feat slot they don't meet the BAB.

TWF using Rogues, Bards, Clerics, Favs, and Monks are already underpowered offensively compared to characters like Fighter and Tempest Ranger. It would not make sense to nerf them harder than the others.

[TiranBlade]

No one will leave or quit, or if they do it will be a small quantity. This is proven by all the other feedback threads with large amounts of disagreement, where people stayed. Read: WoP nerf, and F2P implementation. Lots of threats of leaving the game, and very few keeping the promise.

Ah, wasn't sure or not, I have always heard storys about people who left a game over such a fundamental change.

Also, as someone who has played the Tempest build possibilities in v.3.5, would it not be appropriate to add a Fighter Tempest PrE to the fighter instead of Implementing the STWF feat another possible approach?

[Batman78]

The fact that TWF is on par with THF at all is not like PnP, at least not 3.5, in PnP 3.5 Twf was FAR behind 2HF in terms of damage dealt per round and could only be optimal under stringent feat requirements, class choices AND basically fell to add on damage that went to both hands or was per round damage and on all attacks. The fact that 2hf is better is more pnp than anything that is represented right now and you're kidding yourself if "twitch" fighting has any basis in pnp, show me any feat or fighting style where an extra attack is present when you "jump" to the side, any Wotc commissioned feat at all, show it to me. The less attacks at higher levels by offhand also is on par with pnp because the to hit bonus becomes very small in PnP even with add on to hit components if fighting with two weapons. That was a major complaint in 3.5 and was changed in 4th edition, so all the bring it back to PnP arguments need to stop, because abstractly this change is closer than it is now.

[Axelza]

This would ruin my build that Ive been working so hard on leveling , I have a 3monk 17rog acrobat.

Would it ruin my build totaly ?

[Delacroix21]

As part of this "Combat Feedback" will we see an Improvement in Unarmed attacks while moving?


As it stands now, you can literally be pressed right up to a monster while moving and still see NO DIE ROLLS when attacking unarmed. Will this be addressed?

[hydra_ex]

The fact that TWF is on par with THF at all is not like PnP, at least not 3.5, in PnP 3.5 Twf was FAR behind 2HF in terms of damage dealt per round and could only be optimal under stringent feat requirements, class choices AND basically fell to add on damage that went to both hands or was per round damage and on all attacks. The fact that 2hf is better is more pnp than anything that is represented right now and you're kidding yourself if "twitch" fighting has any basis in pnp, show me any feat or fighting style where an extra attack is present when you "jump" to the side, any Wotc commissioned feat at all, show it to me. The less attacks at higher levels by offhand also is on par with pnp because the to hit bonus becomes very small in PnP even with add on to hit components if fighting with two weapons. That was a major complaint in 3.5 and was changed in 4th edition, so all the bring it back to PnP arguments need to stop, because abstractly this change is closer than it is now.

DDO is not PnP. Your argument is invalid.

Just to add in my opinion, I'm against STWF, but the new numbers seem much better to me; twitch THF gets a nerf too, and so does TWF, although not to the same extent.

By my rough calculations, you should expect to loose between under 10% to slightly over 15% of your current DPS, depending on your class.

Things which decrease your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 10% end:
OH attacks dealing less damage than MH attacks.
Lack of special abilities. Less complicated tends to make DPS loss less.


Things which increase your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 15% end:
Haste boost. You gain more OH attacks with haste boost if you have more OH attacks.
More equal MH and OH damage (poor rogues).
Smites, and other abilities which can hit twice. Less chance for double smites = bad.

[Chai]

My question with STWF is what will the dex requirement be? I remeber when it was proposed originally it was a 19 base dex. Will that still be the case? Or will you reduce it to a 17 or 18 dex. I know most people have been building a 15 dex with a +2 tome for itwf and gtwf. If you do add stwf I request that you keep it to an 18 dex max. It will allow most of the player base to hit it with a simple +3 tome vs having to by a respec to aquire the feat, and reduce other stats. Paladins who are already extremely stat intensive would become even more so with a 19 base dex requirement.

As a paladin player I was worried. The new numbers dont look as bad. It just means I dont take extend and take STWF instead. Im cool with that but with a 4 feat requirement please dont impose a daunting dex requirement on top of the high costs that twf already is. If you do keep the latest proposed numbers and make stwf more easily aquired I will be more than happy to keep my favorite characters twf. Thank you.

Its 19 base dex in the book game, as well as 16 BAB, which means it will be a level 18 feat for just about everyone taking it except those with fighter levels. Even though monks get their flurry to even off their BAB to 20, this does not qualify them for feats as they are still 3/4, so no STWF for rogues monks cleric FvS and bards.

In the book game, its an epic feat, so those classes would have 16 BAB at level 22.

[eeeeeee]

Why must we take things that are black and white and make them grey, we have endured the lag and we shall continue to endure until you do this mod and cause people who have spend months looting and making min2s whos builds now lose to rngrs. can we refund our gs :) ill settle for just scales

[Gurbatonden_Puggh]

Huh, I don't know about other servers, but on Cannith I've never [well, rarely] run epics with another THF, with reason: they are bad.

I play THF and knows that I am on the wrong side, but I LIKE to play THF.

If TWF can't accept to be on the same level than THF, it's their problems. Unless you're a barbarian, THF is gimped. Many people plays this way, they accepted to be less effective than TWF but STILL play THF because they like it. Now, if both are even, it's a blessing.

Dude every post you have made has been I want you to change TWF because I am a THF fighting dude and I am gimped....so please nerf everyone one else because I am too lazy or not smart enough to fix my toon....I have known alot of folks who play THF and are not gimped, so this leads me to believe it has to do with player and or build. How many toons you have that will be affected by this? If your main was a monk you would not be as supportive I think.

TWF need more gear,have less points to spread around and then are only margainly beter the THF...if they were equal WHAT REASON WOULD THERE BE TO PLAY A TWF? What don't you GET!?!?!

[SirShen]

They are so going to bring this in even if we dont want it, just like they did with DA.

[Brennie]

*shrug* No reason why a fighter can't be a better TWF than a ranger. Rangers get a bunch of other nice things like spells and favored enemies.

Rogues are a bit screwed in all of this. Though I'd rather see rogues improved in damage in other ways, like boosting sneak attack as a whole to really turn them into burst DPS characters.

Rangers do get other things, but more/faster two-weapon fighting attacks is the key reason to BE a tempest ranger. Without more/faster two weapon fighting, the only advantage of being a tempest ranger is sheild bonus and reduction of two-weapon-fighting penalties (Neither of which matter to a high level player).

An Arcane Archer who invests in STWF would be only *slightly* behind a tempest ranger for two-weapon fighting ability, while packing ranged craziness for when it proves useful.

Fighters also get a lot of stuff, like Kensai, Weapon Specialization, strength enhancements, class toughness, more HPs, heavier armor, a bajillion bonus feats, and a melee helpful capstone. i was leaving that out of my post, just to do a simple "how many attacks each build can get" comparison... but tossing in the extras, fighters pull out even *more* ahead.

All i'm saying is that STWF strips tempest rangers of their biggest advantage, turning them from "One of the most awesome PrE's" into "Ew, dont' take that one, yuo can do better with AA or a TWF Fighter/Paladin"

[daniel7]

Like it's been stated before, perhaps now would be a good time to allow people to dismantle their greensteel weopons.

My rogue is currently capped on her 2nd life as an acrobat twf. The only reason why I didn't try out a staff wielding build was because I already had greensteel rapiers.

The game has changed alot over the years and more changes to enhancements and combat coming soon. Now would be good time to allow us to desconstruct our greensteel.

[Yshkabibble]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but in order to restrict the number of calculations made how about reducing the number of rolls for weapon damage by assigning an average value. That is to say:

A weapon that does d6 of a certain type of damage now does 3.5 when you are in a raid zone.

You could even use that for the base weapon damage or use an average for weapons that proc on crits. This could reduce the computations that are going on when you have so many weapons flying. Sure you would not get the spectacular results but things on average should still work out.

[le_goat]

cut off the head

because the tooth hurts.

[Cetus]

Would it be reasonable to implement the doublestrike mechanism as a TWF feature exclusively? They would function as a THF for the purposes of physical detection and the server would be able to keep up with it as if it were a bunch of THF'ers in the party.

Any dps reduction that may follow can be corrected with a percentage.

And leave THF'ers as they are now along with the glancing blow mechanism.

[Gercho]

The need of stwf will be a further nerf for feat starved classes, so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue will be able to afford it, even if they could cover other prerequisites... and you are still nerfing paladins and fighters twf (zeal and alacrity are half as effective as used to be).

BTW is funny that shade in every thread in the forum brags how thf fb is the highest dps in the game, and in this thread justifies nerfing twf to bring it to the level of thf, but says that thf should be left untouched

[mehlinda]

It has nothing to do with our systems ability to read the info coming in insomuch as their equipment cannot accurately send it all out to 12 different sources..it only occurs in spots where there is a large concentration of feed .. I don't know anything about code or servers myself..I am only repeating what I am told from people who do..but i bet there are people who do know reading this thread.

[TiranBlade]

Its 19 base dex in the book game, as well as 16 BAB, which means it will be a level 18 feat for just about everyone taking it except those with fighter levels. Even though monks get their flurry to even off their BAB to 20, this does not qualify them for feats as they are still 3/4, so no STWF for rogues monks cleric FvS and bards.

In the book game, its an epic feat, so those classes would have 16 BAB at level 22.

Actually in the Books it's called Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, requires you to be level 21 and have a 25 Dex, and after level 20 you don't gain more attacks due to Base Attack, because starting at 21st level you gain Epic Base Attack Bonus which stacks but doesn't continue your nomral base attack bonus.

[The_Phenx]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

I am in favor of STWF being brought back in to essentially leave things where they are. It gives an advantage to fighters since they have SO many feats to spread around... Which means only tempest rangers and purpose built fighters will have s***...fighters with a much heavier investment.

BUT...doesn't this essentially put things right back to where we are? Or is it that the lesser feat having classes will only be at GTWF and therefore there will be a partial 20% drop across the board?

[Chai]

It has nothing to do with our systems ability to read the info coming in insomuch as their equipment cannot accurately send it all out to 12 different sources..it only occurs in spots where there is a large concentration of feed .. I don't know anything about code or servers myself..I am only repeating what I am told from people who do..but i bet there are people who do know reading this thread.

Youre right, there are, and most of them dont even agree with eachother. heh.

The ones who do know are the ones who coded this game.

[Persnoody]

So u guys are planning on making a cross classed monk better then a full monk? what the hell... im already gettin tired of people taking a whatever/2monk over a 20 monk... i mean come on and now u plan on making that more apparent? that is so messed up, wind monks are the masters of twf.

Oh and for unarmed dmg there really isnt an off hand, since wraps are a 2hw there should be no nerf to off hand attacks (with handwraps)

While we are talkin bout updates, why the hell do monks get to use short swords and long swords before u guys introduce gs handwraps? u knew it had to be comin and im sure its been mentioned already...Why! would a monk want to use a short sword when unarmed dmg or far greater, there isnt much of a difference from a kama to a short sword, figured since we dont get gs then letin monks use a few named items will make up for it?

[Cetus]

The need of stwf will be a further nerf for feat starved classes, so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue will be able to afford it, even if they could cover other prerequisites... and you are still nerfing paladins and fighters twf (zeal and alacrity are half as effective as used to be).

BTW is funny that shade in every thread in the forum brags how thf fb is the highest dps in the game, and in this thread justifies nerfing twf to bring it to the level of thf, but says that thf should be left untouched


I am a strong proponent of leaving the THF system untouched, the problem with lag is the surplus if information coming from TWF that the server can't handle. THF have nothing to do with this, just change the TWF combat system to be more of a THF mechanism in terms of the doublestrike implementation, and let THF be...

[Therilith]

If this is in fact a way to lower TWF DPS in disquise of fixing DPS lag, I would say just come out and say we want to NERF TWF.

They did.

[Quijonsith]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

I'm not sure I understand how wind IV, zeal, and alacrity will work with GTWF in this chart. When you say 'the bottom rows assume the person has GTWF' then does that mean the 80% off hand is only coming from the GTWF feat and the only bonus from say wind IV is 10% increase in main hand attacks and 10% chance to double strike?

If I understand that correctly a monk in wind IV with that proposal isn't nearly as far behind now as the would have been in the initial suggestion. If this actually does help lag then the above chart is much much better and something i could live with and have no regret about it.

You show a breakdown of tempest I, II, and III. How would wind I-III breakdown for this? Would it be the same as the insight bonuses to speed we have now? As per the entry in the compendium: 2.5% insight bonus per wind stance tier up to the 10% at wind IV.

The more I look at your chart the more I think I understand it and I must say I'm on board for this if it does help lag. It is a very reasonable nerf compared to the first proposal.

[stockwizard5]

This is really far too complicated a change for what you are looking to do. This has the fundamental effect of changing the balance between all TWF builds and to be honest - I don't think the team really has a solid grip on what the changes really do.

I know this is way early in the process but stuff like replacing 12 levels and 3 feats with one feat is so drastic as to obilterate huge swaths of builds (and not by a little).

I am all for DPS lag reduction (it sucks) but I would look in two areas that effect performance more than mechanics first:

1. Change the way the combat log works (turning it off should not effect dps lag and it does)
2. Change the way bonuses are applied to reduce the number of effects (e.g. force ritual adds +1 to base weapon rather than new effect).

Start with the stuff that doesn't make fundamental change to everything first!

[Shmuel]

Most of my fighter-type characters are twf.

I do understand the need to make changes to mechanics to reduce lag, and will not be horribly angry about that per say BUT:

I do think, and always have thought, that when changes are made to game mechanics then some attempt to allow players who have invested significant time and effort in building toons and acquiring gear based on the mechanics being changed to adapt to the changes. In this case, for example, a free LR token and, most importantly, an effort to implement greensteel deconstructions should mitigate these issues for most players.

[Borror0]

The need of stwf will be a further nerf for feat starved classes, so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue will be able to afford it, even if they could cover other prerequisites
Rogues are not supposed to be a feat starved class. Sadly, DDO does not allow them to pick a free feat at level 10, 13, 16 and 19 like in PnP.

[geoffhanna]

Yet...

How much of the problem is the physics detection?

Couldn't you achieve much of the same result by eliminating the second offhand detection (as you are already suggesting) and assuming that the offhand is still in range?

And not change anything else?

[Visty]

I'm not sure I understand how wind IV, zeal, and alacrity will work with GTWF in this chart. When you say 'the bottom rows assume the person has GTWF' then does that mean the 80% off hand is only coming from the GTWF feat and the only bonus from say wind IV is 10% increase in main hand attacks and 10% chance to double strike?

If I understand that correctly a monk in wind IV with that proposal isn't nearly as far behind now as the would have been in the initial suggestion. If this actually does help lag then the above chart is much much better and something i could live with and have no regret about it.

You show a breakdown of tempest I, II, and III. How would wind I-III breakdown for this? Would it be the same as the insight bonuses to speed we have now? As per the entry in the compendium: 2.5% insight bonus per wind stance tier up to the 10% at wind IV.

The more I look at your chart the more I think I understand it and I must say I'm on board for this if it does help lag. It is a very reasonable nerf compared to the first proposal.
yes, windstance only gives a +10% doublestrike chance (and nothing to your mainhand, the 110% there is already includingthe doublestrike 10%)

[Chai]

Rogues are not supposed to be a feat starved class. Sadly, DDO does not allow them to pick a free feat at level 10, 13, 16 and 19 like in PnP.

Yeah they do, but its from the rogue feat list and not from the total list of all feats.

[Xyfiel]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.

[ArkoHighStar]

Yeah they do, but its from the rogue feat list and not from the total list of all feats.

yes but this deviates from pnp rules which allows them to substitute a reg feat for one of the special feats.

[Cetus]

I agree globally on the fact that this setup is far too complex to do us any good, I'd rather deal with some dps lag but still know that i am happy with where my character stands instead of go through the entire headache of bi***ing and complaining.

Again, please leave THF untouched, it is just fine the way it is right now.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Another thing...

This change makes obsolete many DPS characters, throws out years of greensteel grinding, *snip*

Nonsense. Saying that any change to twf dps makes them obsolete is just pure nonsense.

[underlordone]

Ok you whant to to fix lag.. Here it is.


1- Remove the confirm for crit make 20 a 20 let seeker just be for damage on a crit and the feat added damage

2- Lower hp of some of the mobs and give them heavy fort. SO now less damage going out but still going down just as fast.

3- Remove hamsters and get gerbils there a bit more faster :)

I do think those 2 would reduce the lag greatly. Granted I do solo a lot and heavy fort on the mobs that I am trying to kill would stink but if the hp was lowered to make up for it then we should not notice a diff at all.

[IronClan]

This. As it is, combat goes -way- too fast in DDO. When I play my monk, i honestly cannot read the damage numbers as they scroll, and I usually see the "killing blow" several -seconds- after the mob is dead. Its NOT because I lag, but because the already fast scrolling numbers cannot keep up at their current speed. Its honestly nuts. There's no reason I should be getting a billion attacks per second. Just slow down everything a notch.

We pretty much know this would work, because you can already counter DPS lags by slowing down when fighting in raids. Stop attacking for a few seconds, lag goes away.

Well I'm glad someone agrees, I don't think for server overhead reasons that it even needs to be very noticible... even globally lowering the "pulse rate" from 200 BPM to 175 BPM a little over a 10% global combat speed nerf would probalby gain a significant "cusion" of server power and bandwidth...

Basically it would be LESS than the difference between being hasted or not...

I personally would be ok with significantly more slow down than that... even 25% wouldn't bother me (although I'm sure some of the most zerg happy would bitterly complain and leave).

[Cetus]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.


Agreed entirely

[Nevthial]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.


I have a proposition to reduce lag that will allow the system to remain as it has for 3+ years : Raise the minimum system requirements for computers/ graphics cards to actually play. While I understand that players with low end systems may suffer, lag WILL diminish. The game is ALOT bigger than it was when DDO came out. Trying to compensate for archaic hardware on a players end by making massive changes to the combat mechanic isn't the course to take. I know people don't want to hear it, but slow machines on a player's end DO cause lag.

[Calebro]

2- Lower hp of some of the mobs and give them heavy fort. SO now less damage going out but still going down just as fast.

So nerf Rogues again instead? That's part of your answer? :eek:

[Quijonsith]

yes, windstance only gives a +10% doublestrike chance (and nothing to your mainhand, the 110% there is already includingthe doublestrike 10%)

Oh, I get it. So the 110% main hand includes the 10% double strike. That makes more sense. Thanks.

Wow so that means dark monks in wind 4 have a 10% chance to double ToD and shintao monks would have a 10% chance to double smite (if the smite works only on one strike like ToD does) or shintao would have 80% double smites if it lands like paladin smites do now with GTWF.

[Solace183]

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.



I'm just a little confused here (and forgive me if this has been answered... 48 pages is a bit too much to troll through), but if you're a ranger tempest 3 with STWF, does that equate to a 120% offhand chance and 105% mainhand? Or would the Tempest 3 STWF not see any benefit from the extra 20% at all?

If that's the case, having an offhand swing "faster" (or more, as it may be) seems odd... Is there a possibility of applying any bonus over 100% to the main hand? I.E 125% Main 100% Off? (Yes, I realize 25% double strike is probably a bit OPed, and am not proposing this change, just asking mechanic wise).

It's entirely possible there's something I'm missing here, but I wanted to be sure.


***EDIT***

After following the Dev Tracker, I realize that Tempest II "is" STWF...

It sort of seems like a Kensai TWF fighter would then be the "best" TWF character versus Tempest (1 free feat for a ranger PrE which fighters get each 2 levels...)...

Is this not counter-intuitive?

I would like to see. possibly, some benefits to the tempest tree to level the playing field a bit, if this turns out to be the case post number crunch.

[Brennie]

...so while a fighter will allways have stwf, hardly a paladin or rogue ...

Rogues won't be able to take it all unless they a) Multiclass atleast 6 levels of a full BaB class, in order to get BaB 16 by level 18 or b) Take 4 levels of a full BaB class, with fighter being the 4th at level 20 (Assuming STWF is a fighter bonus feat)

So rogues really do get the shaft (Though a 6 tempest ranger/12rogue could pull it off)

[Victor_1]

Cant say for sure till this goes on lamania, and I didnt all of post here.
But if this is going to reduce over all DPS performed by TWF character...

You SHOULD have re-balance HP on mob.
There is no point to keep all of these insane HP on endgame mobs if you reduce player's DPS ability.
Also, will this make huge DPS gap between say, TWF specialized ranger and semi-TWF focused character like warchanter?

I wouldn't mind nerf itself if its necessary to fix DPS lag.
But please, other than changes itself please consider way to maintain balances.
I really hate to see forum gets filled by "non-ranger/fighter/paladin TWF are gimped!" kind of posts.

[Calebro]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.

False.
Currently, a toon with TWF alone does have 100%/100%, but only on his first attack. His following attacks are at 100%/0%, 100%/0% and 100%/0%
This changes them ALL to 100%/40%, which is a marked improvement over what he had previously.

Previously, the more TWF feats you had, the more bang you got for your buck.
Now, you'll still be better with more, but the difference is less so.

This will actually help TWFers that didn't complete the chain (although I'm not sure why you'd go TWF and NOT complete the chain....).

[Quijonsith]

I'm just a little confused here (and forgive me if this has been answered... 48 pages is a bit too much to troll through), but if you're a ranger tempest 3 with STWF, does that equate to a 120% offhand chance and 105% mainhand? Or would the Tempest 3 STWF not see any benefit from the extra 20% at all?

If that's the case, having an offhand swing "faster" (or more, as it may be) seems odd... Is there a possibility of applying any bonus over 100% to the main hand? I.E 125% Main 100% Off? (Yes, I realize 25% double strike is probably a bit OPed, and am not proposing this change, just asking mechanic wise).

It's entirely possible there's something I'm missing here, but I wanted to be sure.

I forgot to ask that myself. What will be the requirements of STWF and will tempests and monks be able to take it?

EDIT: I think I see that you have to have full BAB to get STWF, so pure monks probably won't qualify for it. I'm actually ok with this as it diversifies fighters from 3/4 BAB classes.

[Velexia]

First, monks aren't the fastest attackers. Rogues and Fighters both get 30% attack speed boosts which put them WAY ahead of monks much of the time. And while I don't know what a twitching acrobat on haste boost wearing madstones gets for attacks per second with a staff, I know it's really high. Regardless "DPS" lag happens with all barbarians in shroud, this clearly has NOTHING to do with monks OR TWF.

Second, as for optimization, a monk strikes a little over 4 attacks per second typically. The number of floating point operations, even unoptimized and in 3 dimensions to calculate if the two objects are in range for the strike to land can be counted on one hand. With the number of operations of a server being counted in the GFLOPS thinking that cutting down on a few operations per second will have any significant impact is misguided to say the least.

Third, it's not impacting the server the way you think it is. If you've both kited in and meleed in part 2 of ToD you'd know that being any distance away from the melee gives you a dramatically different experience than being on the platform with the melee group. It's not the instance choking. It's not the server choking.

Fourth, why the lag in part 1 of shroud going up the steps to the chests after the final, NW portal is broken? Everyone gets it. Maybe you should look at that instead of jumping on the "DPS lag" that, while a catchy term, is only something that people who don't understand software could believe is a problem.

BTW, fix the zone/character changing memory leak problem that is causing the majority of the game crashes. It's been pointed out to you in the forums for months now. Fix the bloody thing.

This.

If my Rogue, which is my favorite character, can no longer do her primary objective (DPS) I will find a better game.

[Brennie]

I'm just a little confused here (and forgive me if this has been answered... 48 pages is a bit too much to troll through), but if you're a ranger tempest 3 with STWF, does that equate to a 120% offhand chance and 105% mainhand? Or would the Tempest 3 STWF not see any benefit from the extra 20% at all?

If that's the case, having an offhand swing "faster" (or more, as it may be) seems odd... Is there a possibility of applying any bonus over 100% to the main hand? I.E 125% Main 100% Off? (Yes, I realize 25% double strike is probably a bit OPed, and am not proposing this change, just asking mechanic wise).

It's entirely possible there's something I'm missing here, but I wanted to be sure.

In theory, the offhand proc chance caps at 100%, meaning STWF on a teampest II ranger would be a complete waste. At the very least, I'm hoping tempest II enhancement locks out the STWF feat form being taken

[vVAnjilaVv]

The proposed change will nerf weapon selection for several builds as well as number of "attacks" if the offhand has only a chance to "proc". For example: A multi-class character without the full line of TWF feats, say only TWF, currently has a 100% main/ 100% offhand chances for attacks. If said character was using a cursespewer in main and a paralyzer in offhand( or any combo designed for different and complementary effects) after this change they would actually have to fight longer to see the same result as prior to this. Will this not make combat less enjoyable, and/or increase server load per instance since the fights will last much longer? Or is this designed to force everyone to fight only with THF since it's become super popular with the F2P crowd and will be the only guaranteed method of gaining 100% attack(s) per swing without investing in all the TWF feats/ PRE's and certain classes? This change will pigeonhole builds even more than before, even if unintended.


I have a proposition to reduce lag that will allow the system to remain as it has for 3+ years : Raise the minimum system requirements for computers/ graphics cards to actually play. While I understand that players with low end systems may suffer, lag WILL diminish. The game is ALOT bigger than it was when DDO came out. Trying to compensate for archaic hardware on a players end by making massive changes to the combat mechanic isn't the course to take. I know people don't want to hear it, but slow machines on a player's end DO cause lag.

Well...what I was trying to say was this doesn't seem like a "lag fix" but just another misleading name for a nerf to TWF. Great way to sell hearts of wood. :rolleyes:

[R0cksteady]

In theory, the offhand proc chance caps at 100%, meaning STWF on a teampest II ranger would be a complete waste. At the very least, I'm hoping tempest II enhancement locks out the STWF feat form being taken

Why? if main hand has a chance to proc a double strike and is listed as over 100%, why couldn't the offhand have a chance to proc a double strike if it's over 100%?

[hydra_ex]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.

Wait? In one suggestion, you not only reduced lag, but also improved the difficulty of the game, made it more tactical and thus more fun as well, and partially recycled old content for a bit?

Wow, you rock!

[Borror0]

Yeah they do, but its from the rogue feat list and not from the total list of all feats.
In 3.5 D&D, rogues can select any feat they qualify for instead of their special abilities whereas, in DDO, they are limited to Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery and Slippery Mind which causes them to be feat starved.

[Diib]

The second table posted looks much better, because it allows for more paths to about equal twf numbers, and I strongly support flexibility in character design. That is the core of what makes this game great.

That said I'm very nervous about the idea of adding stwf as a feat. The pnp requirements are high (19! dex), and many builds are already feat starved. Do heroic and legendary builds start getting extra feats?

[Toddlwarren32]

I do commend the devs for stepping up to address this issue. I have played a few other mmos with similar issues and the response was either "oh well, deal" or "upgrade your system". So, my hat's off to you for even attempting a solution.

But is this really the only viable option? Are there other ways to solve lag other than changing the game mechanics?

Seems to me like we are trying to use a bunch of mud to plug up a hole. What next, golf balls?? Maybe a top-hat? I hope that the tests of this fix will shed some more light on this. I really hate to see this change happen. My main toon will definately suffer. Makes me regret sinking real money into making him. Maybe F2P was the way to go...

[Nevthial]

False.
Currently, a toon with TWF alone does have 100%/100%, but only on his first attack. His following attacks are at 100%/0%, 100%/0% and 100%/0%
This changes them ALL to 100%/40%, which is a marked improvement over what he had previously.

Previously, the more TWF feats you had, the more bang you got for your buck.
Now, you'll still be better with more, but the difference is less so.

This will actually help TWFers that didn't complete the chain (although I'm not sure why you'd go TWF and NOT complete the chain....).

Because it is currently a guaranteed 100%/100% with only TWF. Changing something guaranteed to something with only a chance, hurts a character using complementary weapons unless they invest alot heavier into TWF feats and/or certain classes. The first attack sequence is where some builds gain their power. Melee casters, ect. can be hurt badly, thus causing an even further pigeonhole towards playing only certain types of characters.

[Brennie]

Why? if main hand has a chance to proc a double strike and is listed as over 100%, why couldn't the offhand have a chance to proc a double strike if it's over 100%?

They could, but Eladrin said somewhere earlier in here that Tempest 1 + 2 was basically the same as STWF, since they both brought the ranger to 100% offhand.

I believe the implication was that anything over 100% was redundant.

[Nevthial]

Well...what I was trying to say was this doesn't seem like a "lag fix" but just another misleading name for a nerf to TWF. Great way to sell hearts of wood. :rolleyes:

LOL no doubt!

[Velexia]

I realize I'm late to the discussion and my comments may get lost in the tide, but I feel the need to put in my 2 copper.

First off, I'm not sure the sky is falling down. I'm actually looking forward to seeing how it plays out, as some randomization might make combat more interesting ::gasp::

However, I do have one small suggestion (forgive me if it has been covered, but I had to skim a very long thread). In any animation that clearly makes two simultaneous attacks (running and attacking with TWF, rogue Stealth attacks, etc.), you might consider guaranteeing off-hand procs. The animation clearly makes two attacks, and these attacks are already at significantly reduced speed. This has the added benefit of ensuring that Assassins can still double assassinate (just like in the movies) without the risk of alerting one of a pair. Attack inconsistency and stealth don't mix well, which makes Shiz a sad monkey.

EDIT: after reading the post above mine, now I'm wondering how the collision detection will react to a successful Assassinate. Will any remaining attacks just be lost? If so, then please consider leaving 2 detection checks for simultaneous attack animations.

A very good suggestion. Would rep but I ran out today.

[Calebro]

They could, but Eladrin said somewhere earlier in here that Tempest 1 + 2 was basically the same as STWF, since they both brought the ranger to 100% offhand.

I believe the implication was that anything over 100% was redundant.

Correct. The 110% numbers are showing the possibility of a Double Strike with the main hand. The secondary number shows the chances for an offhand strike.
Raising the offhand to higher than 100% is meaningless.

[Chai]

In 3.5 D&D, rogues can select any feat they qualify for instead of their special abilities whereas, in DDO, they are limited to Crippling Strike, Defensive Roll, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery and Slippery Mind which causes them to be feat starved.

Correct, as I stated, only I didnt quote straight from the rules.

[Towrn]

So I thought as a joke to our fearful guild leader and after reading all of these possible proposed changes I would create a new character.

What do you think?

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z103/Towrn/ScreenShot00040.jpg

:D

[transtemporal]

Apologies if this has already been posted, but what are the other candidate solutions for the problem? It seems as if they've already been ranked and prioritised behind the scenes and this is the only option we have, which is really no option at all...

[Auriljr]

why dont tyou Just ban the acounts with twf toons it would be easier

[Brennie]

***EDIT***

After following the Dev Tracker, I realize that Tempest II "is" STWF...

It sort of seems like a Kensai TWF fighter would then be the "best" TWF character versus Tempest (1 free feat for a ranger PrE which fighters get each 2 levels...)...

Is this not counter-intuitive?

I would like to see. possibly, some benefits to the tempest tree to level the playing field a bit, if this turns out to be the case post number crunch.

This is exactly what i said in an earlier post.

While two-weapon fighting fighters and two-weapon fighting ranges each have their advantages, the MIAN advantage of Tempest is that a TWF ranger would attack faster/more often than an equal level TWF fighter.

Now, a TWF 20 fighter with STWF and capstone can get the exact same offhand proc chance as a TWF Tempest III Ranger, but with 5% more double-strike chance! Thus, fighters actually attack faster/more often than tempest rangers!

And more, an Arcane Archer ranger can get the same offhand proc chance with only *1* feat investment (STWF) as a tempest ranger, without wasting 3 feats (Dodge, mobility, spring attack, OTWF), and while still being able to whip out a bow and manyshot +5 slayer arrows at some poor mob.

The new table seems okay-ish, though i'm not completely onboard with the changes, but STWF completely borks the whole deal!

[Maleth]

No, we don't.

There are other ways to fix this. It just seems to me to be a convenient excuse to nerf TWF.

[Smexxy]

Has it been considered, to give Assassins or Rogues in general as they level up, % chances at double strike on sneak attacks?

[Batman78]

DDO is not PnP. Your argument is invalid.

Just to add in my opinion, I'm against STWF, but the new numbers seem much better to me; twitch THF gets a nerf too, and so does TWF, although not to the same extent.

By my rough calculations, you should expect to loose between under 10% to slightly over 15% of your current DPS, depending on your class.

Things which decrease your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 10% end:
OH attacks dealing less damage than MH attacks.
Lack of special abilities. Less complicated tends to make DPS loss less.


Things which increase your DPS loss, and put you closer to the 15% end:
Haste boost. You gain more OH attacks with haste boost if you have more OH attacks.
More equal MH and OH damage (poor rogues).
Smites, and other abilities which can hit twice. Less chance for double smites = bad.


Where in my post did I say ddo was pnp and where did I argue against or for something other than that twitch style has no basis in pnp which is what people were saying it did? Come on, show me where in my post Im arguing something differently, Im all open to your wild and imaginitive interpretation.

[Gelandor]

Just wondering how this would affect a build like Figher 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 with Kensai II, Tempest I, and GTWF?

[hydra_ex]

Where in my post did I say ddo was pnp and where did I argue against or for something other than that twitch style has no basis in pnp which is what people were saying it did? Come on, show me where in my post Im arguing something differently, Im all open to your wild and imaginitive interpretation.

People said that is has a basis in pnp? I might have missed some posts, since they come off so fast, and out of context, you seemed to me, at least, to be arguing that twitch should be nerfed because it has no basis in pnp. I responded under that assumption.

If you wanted to address people who thought it did, then it was my mistake.