Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SquelchHU]

So, you were responding to him, but you quoted me???


Since the rogue in question wan't using ranged, but TWFing in fact, mind telling us how he pulled Suulo's agro off Shade, not once, but 3-4 times, considering " that doesn't happen " according to your posts, and the posts of several others in this thread???

I'm not going to go following that quote chain all the way back to figure it out. But he was talking about a ranged attacker pulling aggro, and then you responded to that and called me out about it. So yes I quoted you, who quoted a ranged post to point out that ranged has buggy aggro mechanics. And this is why we need quote trees to make ongoing discussions easier to follow.

[Drfirewater79]

ROTFLMAO. I completely missed that post.


FYI to Krag;

If your rogue isn't around 375-400ish HP ( or more ) at cap, you've done something very, very wrong.

And I sure most clerics would appreciate you staying out of their parties all together.

I have to agree ... its not hard to get 400 hps .... in windstance on my monk (-2 con)
I have 402 hps ... with a base of 14 (dex wisdom to max then reduced 2 dex and 2 wisdom to increase str and con cause i decided 2 ac wasnt worth the lack of hps) and even before that build design when i was pure dex and wisdom base 8 con i still had 330 hps

really there is something wrong if at lvl 20 you dont have more then 300 hps unless you a caster or even worse an acrane trickster with no shroud items (my AT build has only 240 hps i think i would have to double check to know for sure)

[Arlathen]

It's Live on Lama NOW !!!

Hmm, shame. This is the first time I'm missing being a VIP for Lama access.

Well, I've delivered my input, still awaiting to see what the current template of changes is going to be. I've seen the updated table with no STWF (of which I'm very happy, btw).

I wonder if we'll get another round to offer some constructive feedback once Eladrin nearly finishes the proposed changes.

[Drfirewater79]

acrane trickster with no shroud items (my AT build has only 240 hps i think i would have to double check to know for sure)

double checked my ddo and i have 306 (and the ability to use full heal scrolls) on my trickster build

[Drfirewater79]

It's Live on Lama NOW !!!

sweet cant wait to get home .... need to get my character uploaded .... oh oh oh time to test the monk and caster again ....

if combat sucks at least i can enjoy my pale master right?

[Drfirewater79]

So why not just test out this change by itself and see how it affects performance before making such a radical change to the combat system?

cause that is how turbine gets down ...

Turbine's rick james @#$#@

[SquelchHU]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906&highlight=relative+twf
This may not have been updated recently, but take a look at the top dps in the list and see how many of the 400+ builds are tempest rangers (6 splash or18). Now, how many of those also include rogue as a major contribution? All those builds will get hit along with the ranger, so they'll all drop in effectiveness. Tempest3 ranger dps may fall by 15%, but all others will drop by ~10% or more as well, leaving the relative positions unchanged. And after all that it will still be above THF.

And the top of the list is 600+. As I said. And it hasn't been updated recently, nor does it contain non TWF based characters.

But more to the point...

466.8 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1, w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +15% (exploiter) < Position is dependent on short term effects. Namely, 2:30 of haste boost.
418.2 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , (exploiter) < What you get without haste boosts.
431.8 … warforged , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored ,

Any of those numbers sound impressive to you? They're alright, but impressive? (by comparison, Monks are 433)

[Baahb3]

You've run with me, I'm not maxed out but I've got a good build and I'm a competent player. I can tell you right now my Tempest III does NOT do as much damage as TWF kensais and barb regardless of style. I'm basing this on the only valid test, combat and who gets the aggro. Rangers are NOT top DPS and don't need this nerf. We do not hit as hard as fighters or barbs, we need out swing-speed to stay close.

IMO rangers don't need to be close to fighters and barbarians DPS wise. Rangers should have to trade DPS for versatility.

Skills, evasion, self healing, spells are a few things that rangers trade for DPS. To ask for or expect to get all of this AND still be near the top of the DPS charts is just being greedy.

[Strype.McClaine]

I'm intrigued by the changes, and will reserve judgement until testing with my own two hands, however.

Talking about the invisible elephant in the room, thief-acrobat quarterstaff rogues.
Acrobat I gives a 10% speed boost....
Acrobat II gives 20% speed boost.....

Currently in the live environment I see NOTHING in terms of a difference acrobat 1 and 2 (from the speed side)
Is this going to stay the same?
Is Acrobat II working as intended?

Sure, I'm not talking about the best of the best elite builds, but this is a fun viable build that kinda skulks in the shadows with a big stick.

Just wondering.

[grodon9999]

IMO rangers don't need to be close to fighters and barbarians DPS wise. Rangers should have to trade DPS for versatility.

Skills, evasion, self healing, spells are a few things that rangers trade for DPS. To ask for or expect to get all of this AND still be near the top of the DPS charts is just being greedy.


We're NOT close now unless that barb/fighter is a GIMP.

[Consumer]

And the top of the list is 600+. As I said. And it hasn't been updated recently, nor does it contain non TWF based characters.

But more to the point...

466.8 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1, w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +15% (exploiter) < Position is dependent on short term effects. Namely, 2:30 of haste boost.
418.2 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , (exploiter) < What you get without haste boosts.
431.8 … warforged , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored ,

Any of those numbers sound impressive to you? They're alright, but impressive? (by comparison, Monks are 433)

You can take those numbers a whole lot higher if you properly gear those builds for DPS.

[Baahb3]

We're NOT close now unless that barb/fighter is a GIMP.

But rangers are not near the bottom either, they are definately above mid tier, more so against their favored enemies. And with the limited types of monsters in this game you can cover nearly all of the ones used in end game adventures.

The rangers position is established and well respected DPS wise, that position will not change once this is put into place.

[bobbryan2]

You can take those numbers a whole lot higher if you properly gear those builds for DPS.

What?

[grodon9999]

But rangers are not near the bottom either, they are definately above mid tier, more so against their favored enemies. And with the limited types of monsters in this game you can cover nearly all of the ones used in end game adventures.

We're a full BAB class. We are the BOTTOM of full BAB classes. Where should we be? Rogues do more damage.

Regarding FEs, only if you swap feats often can you cover everything. With epic (and hopefully new content) it's not "Dungeons and Devils" anymore



The rangers position is established and well respected DPS wise, that position will not change once this is put into place.

The status quo right now is fine, this fouls it up.

[Valindria]

I'm intrigued by the changes, and will reserve judgement until testing with my own two hands, however.

Talking about the invisible elephant in the room, thief-acrobat quarterstaff rogues.
Acrobat I gives a 10% speed boost....
Acrobat II gives 20% speed boost.....

Currently in the live environment I see NOTHING in terms of a difference acrobat 1 and 2 (from the speed side)
Is this going to stay the same?
Is Acrobat II working as intended?

Sure, I'm not talking about the best of the best elite builds, but this is a fun viable build that kinda skulks in the shadows with a big stick.

Just wondering.

I thought it was 5% and 10% for a total of 15% at Acro II?

[Consumer]

What?

Not only are the numbers old but the gear used is also old and will not contain items such as the redscale docent and +7 str items.

[Baahb3]

We're a full BAB class. We are the BOTTOM of full BAB classes. Where should we be? Rogues do more damage.

Rangers should be the bottom of the full BAB classes for DPS. There is just way too much diversity to claim otherwise. I would argue that Paladins are at the bottom but that is for another day. And as for Rogues doing more damage, not to pour some salt on this but, IMO they should, they don't have nearly the class features or saves that rangers do.



Regarding FEs, only if you swap feats often can you cover everything. With epic (and hopefully new content) it's not "Dungeons and Devils" anymore

The status quo right now is fine, this fouls it up.

For the raids that are being discussed in this thread, Shroud and ToD being the main two, their FEs cannot be ignored.

[Cyr]

For the raids that are being discussed in this thread, Shroud and ToD being the main two, their FEs cannot be ignored.

Uh huh. They have made epic since those came out. Add undead, drow, gnolls, constructs, and dragons to that short list. That's a lot of different enemies there.

[bobbryan2]

Not only are the numbers old but the gear used is also old and will not contain items such as the redscale docent and +7 str items.

It's kinda irrelevant unless those items benefit some class splits more than others.

[bobbryan2]

For the raids that are being discussed in this thread, Shroud and ToD being the main two, their FEs cannot be ignored.

Why are we going to discuss those 2 raids? Ranger DPS and DPS lag are two completely different topics. It's silly to think that rangers should get a larger nerf than everyone else simply because they can do moderate damage in two raids, one of which is almost 2 years old.

[bobbryan2]

Uh huh. They have made epic since those came out. Add undead, drow, gnolls, constructs, and dragons to that short list. That's a lot of different enemies there.

Humans, Orcs, Giant, Reptile, Vermin... and those are just epic red names that come to mind.

[Cyr]

Humans, Orcs, Giant, Reptile, Vermin... and those are just epic red names that come to mind.

Yeah, I was trying to keep my list to the most prevelent/important :)

[Cyr]

It's kinda irrelevant unless those items benefit some class splits more than others.

Well some do. For example any static increase in str. benefits any split that uses THF over TWF unless the TWF split has a 100% off hand hook chance. Also double strike benefits THF and the same applies to str scaling also. On the flip side red dragon armor adds a on hit boost for both weapons so it benefits TWF more.

[Sir_Chonas]

I've been afk for the past month and have missed this thing in its entirety. . .


Can someone please break this down into how much more difficult it's going to be to true reincarnate a monk 3x, paladin 3x, and fighter 2x?

[bobbryan2]

Well some do. For example any static increase in str. benefits any split that uses THF over TWF unless the TWF split has a 100% off hand hook chance. Also double strike benefits THF and the same applies to str scaling also. On the flip side red dragon armor adds a on hit boost for both weapons so it benefits TWF more.

Yes... but that is a list of entirely TWF characters. So new gear doesn't change the breakdown at all.

[Baahb3]

Uh huh. They have made epic since those came out. Add undead, drow, gnolls, constructs, and dragons to that short list. That's a lot of different enemies there.

I don't know too many rangers that don't have undead or constructs on their FE list.

Undead, Giants, Evil Outsiders, Constructs, Elementals seem to be the most common from what I have read and heard and have on mine.

There are others true but I don't see getting gnolls or drow for just a few quests would be worth it.

[Cyr]

I don't know too many rangers that don't have undead or constructs on their FE list.

Undead, Giants, Evil Outsiders, Constructs, Elementals seem to be the most common from what I have read and heard.

There are others true but I don't see getting gnolls or drow for just a few quests would be worth it.

I think that is the point. FE does not cover everything you fight at end game anymore due to epics adding more variety to the mobs you face.

[Invalid_50]

Here are some other ideas to reduce lag.

Chop up the servers with an axe.

Give all raid bosses 1 hit point.

Remove all classes from the game except for Barbarians Wizards and Clerics.

Remove all multi classing (you can no longer be a Barbarian/Wizard/Cleric)

What? these changes are absurd because they fundamentally change core aspects of your game in favor of a reduction in lag? ok, well maybe then we should focus on reducing lag without changing fundamental aspects of your game!

you guys JUST got finished allowing us to put frost and icy burst on nearly every darn weapon in our inventories...which adds yet another dice roll to our attacks and in theory increases this "DPS lag". Does the left hand know what the right hand is doing?

I mean really...say it out loud and listen to how silly it sounds. We are going to reduce dps lag by reducing dps.

Don't do this; please stop making or suggesting to make fundamental changes to your game with the premise that it is to help with lag (See dungeon alert). If the suggestion is dumb, then it is dumb, regardless of what it is supposed to "fix" (See dungeon alert).

[Baahb3]

Humans, Orcs, Giant, Reptile, Vermin... and those are just epic red names that come to mind.

Sorry but Reptile, vermin, orcs...really? You will have to try harder to convince me that FEs are not a big benifit in this game due to the low variety of creature types.

There are plenty of types but they are rare and not worth selecting as a FE.

[bobbryan2]

Sorry but Reptile, vermin, orcs...really? You will have to try harder to convince me that FEs are not a big benifit in this game due to the low variety of creature types.

There are plenty of types but they are rare and not worth selecting as a FE.

Your argument is 4 updates too old.

[Tomalon]

So Lama is up and has the change to TWF.

I went over there and did some ruff testing.

On live my tempest Tommygunz does 10 attacks in one full chain of swings animation.

On Lama, with the change in place, he now only does 8 in the same swing animation.
so ruff testing shows a 20% drop in DPS output due to 2 less attacks.

now keep in mind that i could not tell from the combat log if any of the 8 attacks were double strikes. It either doesnt say or i didnt get any in my test.

Also this was a very small ruff test i did. But i have to say if a 20% drop in TWF dps is intended.....im not very happy.

El its time you sat down and figured out a way to fix the lag with out nerfing the game. Every attempt you have made in the last 2yrs to try and fix the lag in game has been to slow it down. dungeon alert, slow the ppl down as the go thru a quest= failure to fix any lag. I guessing this change will have little effect on the lag also. Not sure if you lack the ability to test the lag (properly) on your end or the coding skill required or maybe you are doing the best with the tools given to you. but **** man nerfs are not always the answer. and i hear you guys had another method to try on ML but you choose to go this route instead of even giving the other any proper testing at all? *** Anyways i got off my topic abit ranting.

[Invalid_50]

So Lama is up and has the change to TWF.

I went over there and did some ruff testing.

On live my tempest Tommygunz does 10 attacks in one full chain of swings animation.

On Lama, with the change in place, he now only does 8 in the same swing animation.
so ruff testing shows a 20% drop in DPS output due to 2 less attacks.

now keep in mind that i could not tell from the combat log if any of the 8 attacks were double strikes. It either doesnt say or i didnt get any in my test.

Also this was a very small ruff test i did. But i have to say if a 20% drop in TWF dps is intended.....im not very happy.

El its time you sat down and figured out a way to fix the lag with out nerfing the game. Every attempt you have made in the last 2yrs to try and fix the lag in game has been to slow it down. dungeon alert, slow the ppl down as the go thru a quest= failure to fix any lag. I guessing this change will have little effect on the lag also. Not sure if you lack the ability to test the lag (properly) on your end or the coding skill required or maybe you are doing the best with the tools given to you. but **** man nerfs are not always the answer. and i hear you guys had another method to try on ML but you choose to go this route instead of even giving the other any proper testing at all? *** Anyways i got off my topic abit ranting.

I hear you man.

It's like fixing the traffic problem on the freeways by changing the speedlimit to 5 mph. it may fix the traffic problem, but it also defeats the whole purpose of taking the freeway in the first place.

[Grendyll]

The nerf train just keeps on rolling.

Epic SoS changed from x4 to x3 (but base damage increased from 4d6 to 5d6).

Weighted 5% weapons changed to 3% proc chance and DC 33 fort save to resist the stun.

I guess if the only remaining advantage of 2WF is the rapid application of "on-hit" effects, they can just nerf all those effects!

[Baahb3]

I think that is the point. FE does not cover everything you fight at end game anymore due to epics adding more variety to the mobs you face.

Von1 = Giants
Von2 = not worth mentioning
Von3 = Red named Troll, Boss-Construct/Outsider, drow may be useful here
Von4 = Constructs
Von5 = no one I know runs this on epic
Von6 = Djinns-Ousiders, Velah = Ok you have me there

Wiz King = Undead
Chains = Gnolls, 1 quest of which is not run very much at all
OOB = Drow would be useful here but is anyone really having a problem with this.
ADQ1 = Again, don't know too many that run this fully on epic, mainly just scroll farming but the boss is an outsider
ADQ2 = Oustsider

As for the sentinal pack, I have not heard of too many running this but here yes you are correct, Humans and Orcs aplenty.

Again I state, the most common FEs are seen in nearly all epics right now. And when they release Gianthold as epic, giants show up again.

[krud]

You can take those numbers a whole lot higher if you properly gear those builds for DPS.
Well then it looks like it's about time someone starts a thread where we can all agree on what "properly geared for dps" means. A thread like gfunk's for all melee styles affected by this so we can make comparisons among top melee dps on a level playing field.

Everyone has their own idea, using every obscure buff available to one-up everyone else's numbers, forgetting that everyone else also has access to the exact same stuff.

[Chuutritt]

And I agree Bandy, there's no doubt that people at this point seem to DPS centric, it seems that more peopel find it more fun to hit stuff harder than the next guy as oppossed to using the varying other skills of the classes. Part of that is because many of those skills simply aren't time effective or all that important in most quests. It's certainly a design problem, because as soon as you start making various abilities TOO important, at least from anal-uber-gamer perspective, you start limiting the party make-up for those quests.

Putting together various clues, such as the conversation not long ago about possible changes to fortification, and I think Eladrin's commernts or possibly from another Dev, about tying in some other skils into mob fortification damaging effects by PC's, might hint at the direction they're heading overall. And that's an attempt to start making it more beneficial for players to use and pay attention to some fo the varying skill/abilities fo the variuos classes as oppossed to what it is now..... I can do 143.2345 damage yahoo.... I'm the awesome uber gamer. At this point in most cases that's the most important thing, and to many people the ONLY important thing. Due to the current overall game design, I don't neccesarily blame them.

But looking at what's been said, and putting it altogether.. There's likely mroe things tied into all of this.....

Agreed, the game will be much more interesting when intelligent gameplay is brought more to the fore and the zerging DPS style is retired to the rear. Until then we will jus have the powergaming zergers racing each other to do more DPS and bore themselves and others into the next game to come along so they can take out the tape measure and compare with each other how uber they are.

[bobbryan2]

Agreed, the game will be much more interesting when intelligent gameplay is brought more to the fore and the zerging DPS style is retired to the rear. Until then we will jus have the powergaming zergers racing each other to do more DPS and bore themselves and others into the next game to come along so they can take out the tape measure and compare with each other how uber they are.

Um... currently zerging IS intelligent gameplay. Maybe you're wanting a different game.

[Chuutritt]

Um... currently zerging IS intelligent gameplay. Maybe you're wanting a different game.

I certain situations yes, in others its like Run Forest Run!

[Consumer]

The way I have the DPS leaderboard atm is:

Epic SoS Fighter - 574.44
Tempest Rogue - 542.29
12/6/2 Egomaniac - 532.29
12/6/2 Monster - 526.24
Epic SoS Barb - 500.19
Khopesh Fighter - 487.42
WF 18/2 Ranger/Fighter - 486.6
WF Fighter GA - 466.22
WF THF Barb GA - 441.2
WF TWF Barb - 436.76

Massive massive drop from previous numbers.

[Pyromaniac]

Sigh, more nerfs...this should help grow the veteran player base. Well I've invested quite a bit of cash lately on gaming and none of its going to go to DDO.

Good luck with the nerfs, I'm done with this thread.

[Gornin]

I think that AD and Borro0 are on to something about the loss of options. (Don't tell them I said so please. :D)

STWF or not, this proposed change reduces options.

Real quick, please raise your hand if you have a dex build you still play? Bueller?...



/tentatively raises hand - My rogue/ranger

[redoubt]

Not only are the numbers old but the gear used is also old and will not contain items such as the redscale docent and +7 str items.

holy **** batman! my drow dex build ranger is required to have an epic docent now!

Everyone keeps talking about how this nerfs perfect builds and epic players... what about the rest of us?

[redoubt]

Well some do. For example any static increase in str. benefits any split that uses THF over TWF unless the TWF split has a 100% off hand hook chance. Also double strike benefits THF and the same applies to str scaling also. On the flip side red dragon armor adds a on hit boost for both weapons so it benefits TWF more.

not on a finesse build...

[Steiner-Davion]

Having listened to the discussion regarding this system change on DDOCast Episode 169, I haveto agree with Samius that this new system is overly complicated.

If the number one problem that the Devs are trying to address is to reduce or eliminate DPS Lag, then I have to ask ask why replace a complex system calculation intensive system with another? I do understand the need to adjustthe power of TWF in comparison to S&B and THF, but hat should be handled seperately. Attack one problem at a time, with one variable to see if the change/variable contributes to the solution/proves your theory.

[LIST=1]
The change to using one Physics check makes sense.
Removing the physics check and replacing it with another check, no matter how light the resource requirement is makes no sense.
Samius proposed a defined combat round time period, and X number of attacks would happen within that time period. Speed boosts, which have been defined as a large part of the DPS problem would be simplified by adding Y number of attacks per round, or by decreasing the combat round duration for that character (this might pose difficulties later though). THe example he used was Haste, the PNP version of the spell grants 1 additional attack/round. Easy to do with his proposal. You now get X+1 attack/round. Attacking with Two Weapons would grant additional attacks per round with the off hand, or additional attacks every set duration (which could be determined based upon the TWF feats the character has).
All this information could be cached or "Permanently" written to the character and only updated when their TWF Feats are changed. At that point the information is in the cache is overwritten and this happens when the performance requirements for sever to slient communication is low and no lag. and things move along as normal.


Other things to consider:
[LIST=1]
Even though the resource requirements for a % based calculation are low, either the server or client has to calculate that % and transmit it to the other computer. Packet loss can still occur. Or whatever other concerns about an extra calcuation are still present to some degree. Just decrease the number of calclations needed period. KISS = Keep It simple Stupid. The more parts to a moving object, the more places things can go wrong. Less = More.

BAB order. In PNP your first attack was at your lowest BAB value. You got additional attacks every time your BAB hit a multiple of 5. Again this makes things simple a Fighter, Ranger or Paladin between the levels of 1-4 would get 1 attack per round with their main hand. At Level 5, they would get 2, one at +5 and one at +1.
Additionally in order to make use of your additional attacks/per you had to stand still and make a full round attack action. But if you moved you would still get the benefit of your highest BAB value, while loosing out on your additional attacks.

In DDO if I am not mistaken you start out using your highest BAB value for your first attack, and each additional attack uses lower and lower BAB values as determined by your class and leve (and other modifiers, but the number of attacks is based upon you class/level BAB values). This benefits the Twitch approach to combat, where moving is a better option than standing still.

The proposed change to glancing blows with THF seems to try to combine the two approachs, where you only get additonal attack, or Glancing blwos by standing still, while still using your highest BAB value.

[Gornin]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.

Look at my builds. Several are not standard, nor optimized, but they still perform well enough at endgame that they are acceptable in raids and epics. This will hurt most of my builds to the point I will have to finally suck it up and TR, or at minimum, LR them to one of 2 acceptable builds, and that sucks. A lot.

[Steiner-Davion]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.


QFT.

Your second and third paragraphs are dead on!

[Borror0]

Ah, because the more logical interpertation of the post is not.
My interpretation of the post is the logical one; yours is the more intuitive one. The paragraph first reads as if Eladrin is saying that DPS and lag are tied, that it's not only about detection checks. However, that would directly conflict with what he has claimed previously. Logic obliges to find an interpretation where there is no contradiction.

What part of nerfing GS weapons would change the number of physics checks? It would only change the dps calculations
I don't know if Green Steel's design cause a greater load or not. Do you?

How can you possibly think that anyone had a problem with reducing physical collision detections by piggybacking on the main-hand.
Knowing that lag is less important than avoiding a nerf is useful feedback as, if the change to procs alters the feel of the game in a negative way, it might help them to pick the alternative the playerbase prefer. Remember the combat change of patch 1. Numbers are not everything; feel matters too. No one was nerfed in the first version of the change, but people didn't like it because it didn't play as well as it did before so they changed it again to keep the feel we like. It required to nerf Haste.

[smatt]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.

Look at my builds. Several are not standard, nor optimized, but they still perform well enough at endgame that they are acceptable in raids and epics. This will hurt most of my builds to the point I will have to finally suck it up and TR, or at minimum, LR them to one of 2 acceptable builds, and that sucks. A lot.


Some good feedback here... For me personally, I can always work around anyking of nerf or change... So what... Adjust, firgure it out, keeps the game intersting in my eyes. But the "FEEL" of playing the game is very important to me..... As someone else said, the orginal combat changes in Update 1 drove me nuts. Swinging in molases was not fun... They found a better way. Without testing it's hard to say what this will do to each and every build out there. wWithin the big piture.... No matter what they change if it plays poorly.. It's a fail... And that's what will be important to MOST players, you know the vast majority who don't come to the forums...... Everything else is a big MEH...

[Shiler]

Question
Do you still get double attacks with TWF while moving forward/backward?
Or its % chance in there too?

[Ollathir]

Extreme dominance is realistically not the case. You simply dont look to load your party with TWF's for end game content. Currently if your goal is for maximum DPS, you grind the hell out Vons and get an ESoS, if your already a THF an your not lucky enough or able to run it enough, GS GA, GS GS, GS GC work pretty well for you, situationally better that an ESoS. Not once has it been mentioned by anyone of merit that any change to ESoS will be forthcoming, until such time, get over it, its here to stay and should be included in the discussion of balancing.


wow. So if I want to win a lottery or pull some nice loot I need to post the opposite here more often.

[Ollathir]

Having listened to the discussion regarding this system change on DDOCast Episode 169, I haveto agree with Samius that this new system is overly complicated.

If the number one problem that the Devs are trying to address is to reduce or eliminate DPS Lag, then I have to ask ask why replace a complex system calculation intensive system with another? I do understand the need to adjustthe power of TWF in comparison to S&B and THF, but hat should be handled seperately. Attack one problem at a time, with one variable to see if the change/variable contributes to the solution/proves your theory.


The change to using one Physics check makes sense.
Removing the physics check and replacing it with another check, no matter how light the resource requirement is makes no sense.
Samius proposed a defined combat round time period, and X number of attacks would happen within that time period. Speed boosts, which have been defined as a large part of the DPS problem would be simplified by adding Y number of attacks per round, or by decreasing the combat round duration for that character (this might pose difficulties later though). THe example he used was Haste, the PNP version of the spell grants 1 additional attack/round. Easy to do with his proposal. You now get X+1 attack/round. Attacking with Two Weapons would grant additional attacks per round with the off hand, or additional attacks every set duration (which could be determined based upon the TWF feats the character has).
All this information could be cached or "Permanently" written to the character and only updated when their TWF Feats are changed. At that point the information is in the cache is overwritten and this happens when the performance requirements for sever to slient communication is low and no lag. and things move along as normal.


Other things to consider:

Even though the resource requirements for a % based calculation are low, either the server or client has to calculate that % and transmit it to the other computer. Packet loss can still occur. Or whatever other concerns about an extra calcuation are still present to some degree. Just decrease the number of calclations needed period. KISS = Keep It simple Stupid. The more parts to a moving object, the more places things can go wrong. Less = More.

BAB order. In PNP your first attack was at your lowest BAB value. You got additional attacks every time your BAB hit a multiple of 5. Again this makes things simple a Fighter, Ranger or Paladin between the levels of 1-4 would get 1 attack per round with their main hand. At Level 5, they would get 2, one at +5 and one at +1.
Additionally in order to make use of your additional attacks/per you had to stand still and make a full round attack action. But if you moved you would still get the benefit of your highest BAB value, while loosing out on your additional attacks.

In DDO if I am not mistaken you start out using your highest BAB value for your first attack, and each additional attack uses lower and lower BAB values as determined by your class and leve (and other modifiers, but the number of attacks is based upon you class/level BAB values). This benefits the Twitch approach to combat, where moving is a better option than standing still.

The proposed change to glancing blows with THF seems to try to combine the two approachs, where you only get additonal attack, or Glancing blwos by standing still, while still using your highest BAB value.

fixed

[FluffyCalico]

So why do so many of you insist that all classes should be able to take ALL the good feats? Leaving the fighters with 2-3 feat slots that are near worthless or used on extra toughness. There are supposed to be tons of good feats. Feats are completely screwed up until a human fighter can completely fill his feat list with good feats. We need more good feats. For those of you saying but x class can't fit y feat in their feat tree...good they aren't supposed to have all the good ones. Why would fighters be special because of all their feats if every class could take all the good ones?

[Meetch1972]

The more I read this thread, the more I think: what about weapon proc immunities? Sure, DPS is important a lot of the time, but when it comes to Red/Purple boss fights, it's ALL about DPS. Why?

Well the boss is immune to my wounding/weakening/etc weapons. A CR X boss is immune where a CR X trash mob in another area/quest isn't. Why?

Presumably because the boss fight would be over too soon without the immunity. So throw 10k hp at the boss, make them immune to all but holy/bane damage (and a couple of other effects like destruction and curse) and make DPS the way to draw out a fight. That seems to have been the logic so far. But does the immunity have to be a COMPLETE immunity?

Perhaps on a level playing field TWF SHOULD DO LESS DPS than THF in general- but this would be offset by the increased number of weapon effect procs that TWF could throw at the boss. My dual puncturing rapiers should most certainly occasionally drain a constitution point, but us potential boss-slayers aren't immune to this!

I'd suggest something like this to level the playing field a bit:
* letting bosses have restoration potions/spells/abilities with suitable concentration checks but remove the blanket immunity altogether, or
* making the PC roll an extra attack roll against the boss' AC, or if balance requires it, AC + 10, or require that confirmation to be a 20, or give them a resist roll, or whatever, to get the effect through once in a while - and just as with players the boss stats would regen over time during the fight.

With either of the above, boss' max HP could be lowered along with overall DPS totals. The high attack rate toons could live with their lowered attack rates and even damage since they would actually be capable of whittling down boss stats in a way at least similar to trash mobs.

Think of the elation if someone actually managed to vorpal the boss with the odds of confirming such a thing set to many thousands to one against! "Hmmm... do we do the charm/whittle thing with the Hound, or do we charge it and hope someone gets lucky - but probably wipe?" "Uh oh, the trash mobs have trashed the rest of the party. I'm the barb, the hound will spot me at any moment. Switch to vorpal and CHEEAARRRRRRRRGE!" If it works... :)

Yes it would need to be balanced/tuned, but it immediately removes the importance of pure DPS party members, while not making them useless at the same time. Worth thinking about?

[testing1234]

TWF has always been weak at low lvls now TWF feats are even more essential doubt anyone will even consider using TWF under BaB11 when they can take GTWF.
this is a significant nerf for a low BaB class like rogue (bard-cleric-fvs) they cant start using TWF until lvl15.

at low lvls TWF actually need a boost the TWF feats should, according to me, be made more powerful at the low end not equal.
not
twf 20% should be 30%
itwf 20% should be 30%
gtwf 20% should be 10%
even with these changes people specced for TWF would still likely do better dps low lvls using a 2h weapon, if u got +tohit for dualweapon powerattack would be much more effective anyhow

can change the % but i think the ratio of boost from TWF ITWF and GTWF should be like that. am aware the dex requirement needed for GTWF makes a expensive feat to take but for a dps build i could not see Not taking this feat even if it was low % boost.

EDIT:still dont like the whole new sytem but if it is coming id like developers to tweak it like this

[Borror0]

So why do so many of you insist that all classes should be able to take ALL the good feats?
No one claimed that.

The argument is that choices ought to be meaningful, and that it wouldn't happen under STWF because they are too obvious.

[Deified]

So this makes a twitching THF with Zeal/Fighter Capstone the fastest swinger in the game, eh?

[R0cksteady]

So this makes a twitching THF with Zeal/Fighter Capstone the fastest swinger in the game, eh?

Basically.

[Deified]

Basically.
I might not be the smartest fellow on DDO, but someone wielding a SoS shouldn't be swinging faster than a Tempest.

[Keridan]

So I was hoping that when our feedback was requested, it actually meant something. Now it definitely feels like a tactic to try and ease us into what was already decided. Posting this on the Friday before a long weekend left plenty of time to get over 120 pages of response. In those pages, there were many great ideas to use as alternatives and a resounding preference not to see the nerf as it was designed originally. What we got was some small concessions, most ideas and questions ignored, and the whole thing implemented on test without so much as another comment from the devs. There have been two full business days this week and we were told that Eldarin was catching up, but then nothing.

This is disappointing and disheartening. The devs may not agree with us or even be listening, but more response shouldn't be too much to ask. It seems to be the same "We were right and you just don't understand." approach that was applied to DA and the other nerfs mentioned repeatedly.

Edit: I have not actually gone to test server yet, but am basing that on a couple earlier posts that it's being tested. Can anyone confirm that? I'd feel silly if I posted incorrect information.

Turns out we do understand. Collectively, this group has more gaming experience than the dev team for any 10 games put together. We've seen hundreds of games fail and even a few succeed. I alone have been playing some form of MMO for well over 15 years. I also have a pretty decent resume as a software designer (tho my game writing experience is less than my professional software). I'm sure I'm not only not alone, but probably far from the most experienced and knowledgeable in this area.

I'm not saying you have to do what we suggest, but how about responding to the feedback you requested? It's your game, we just pay the salary and bills. I myself worry that the silence from the devs comes across as either not caring, or worse yet, confirmation of the "paranoid" theories put forth in this thread and others.

As stated before, this nerf doesn't even affect any of my primary toons. It's the approach and tactics that bother me far more than the change itself. There is a huge and terribly obvious bias towards making sure everyone grinds more and doesn't find a way around that grind. Yuck. Grind is expected in an MMO. It's part of life. But grind burn is something to be considered. It's something I worry about whenever starting another game after so many years.

When I came here to give it a shot and read up a little on the history of the game, I found primary changes to be DA (which you defend, but it could have been done better and smarter and I think you realize that). I also read about TR, which is one of the worst grind-to-reward ratios I've ever seen. I could name others and many folks have throughout this thread.

This game has some very innovative ideas and approaches to gaming. They seem to be fewer instead of more as time goes on, but they are still there and this is still a great game. How about improving on the original content and approaches instead of worrying about those who have figured out a way to speed up the grind a bit?

Sorry for the long-winded complaint, but I have followed this thread carefully since it was only 2 pages long and hoped so very much for it not to be what I expected. Unfortunately, I feel let down.

[Zaal]

just slow down the overall combat system and don't nerf anything.

if a hypothetical battle normally takes a minute, add 10% and have said battle take a minute, 6 seconds.

then maybe scale xp by say 5% to compensate for extra battle time.

[IronClan]

What we got was some small concessions, most ideas and questions ignored, and the whole thing implemented on test without so much as another comment from the devs. There have been two full business days this week and we were told that Eldarin was catching up, but then nothing.

bah here I was zipping though the last couple pages trying to catch up with my hyperscroll wheel in freespin mode, watching for a yellow name, and all I needed to do was read the last post :(

So it's already on the test server? I'm disapointed too... I read and kept up with this thread for roughly 2000 odd posts since is started but can't be arsed to read the last 20-30 odd pages due to the amount of repetition of falsehoods by people who apparently couldn't read the OP. Such as the idea that it's a nerf disguised as a lag fix, to trick us, or those who say upgrade the servers instead of nerfing TWF etc. when the nerf has been stated in the OP as PRIMARILY due to balance reasons. And only a little due to lag (to slightly lower the number of attacks, and to allow them to put in double strike to replace speed boosts such as Tempest I. Then there were the stupid thread derails from people with personal agendas...

It would be a wonder if (after reading all that) the Devs don't become somewhat disillusioned themselves...

[Souless]

Wow! I finally reached the end of this thread....and this will be my last post....Testing is occuring on lamania....

About the lag: Several ppl in this thread have posed what seem like resonable ideas (other than TWF) both for why lag (flying swords in P4, Shadow fiends in p2) is created and how to eliminate it (allow us to select the off switch on the who page, remove the combat log from the direct communication link, 1 physical check for stationary mobs) Now after 160+ pages I'm sorry that I don't remember ur names or quote you directly...that in no way diminishes these suggestions as apparently viable...Eladrin???

About the nerf: I am sorry for all of u gamers who have neither the time, toons, or inclination to grind for gear (in either TWF or THF ESOS) but because u don't should not give u the right to cry: Balance.....to use an analagy..I think what is happening here is very similar to the Sword of Truth novles written by Terry Goodkind.

Basically, what occurs is the masses, in this case THF pulling down the indivduals TWF By stating that they should not shine nor be better TWF simply becase we can't THF.

And I find myself thinking of the main character's response to this form of hypocrasy....*Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it.* I am thinking of the death of my twf builds....I am thinking you can only kill me once...I'm thinking.....

The Bytcher~

[Keridan]

Tried to edit my last post, but it's not showing up on my screen with the new section. I based my comment that it's in testing on a couple of earlier posts. Can anyone confirm that? I would feel silly if I'm posting incorrect information.

[eonfreon]

Knowing that lag is less important than avoiding a nerf is useful feedback as, if the change to procs alters the feel of the game in a negative way, it might help them to pick the alternative the playerbase prefer. Remember the combat change of patch 1. Numbers are not everything; feel matters too. No one was nerfed in the first version of the change, but people didn't like it because it didn't play as well as it did before so they changed it again to keep the feel we like. It required to nerf Haste.

I really don't know why I'm wasting my time. I really think at this point you've shown that your "above average reading skills" are actually above average rationalization skills.

Once again I'll ask you the question you've evaded just for the heck of it; how can you think that anyone has any problem with the fact that the offhand collision check is now piggybacked to the main hand? Since that is not a nerf to DPS, how can it be construed as a preference of lag over DPS?
Remember the removal of the offhand collision check and the addition of the offhand proc chance are not the same thing.

So your "logical interpretation" is anything but, because you're still arguing that the Devs are not trying to imply that the TWF nerf is also required to "fix DPS lag" overall. And yet that is what is implied. The "players prefer their DPS over a smoother play experience" is pretty clear. My reading skills are quite above average too. And I can spot contradictions without trying to rationalize them.

Whether it be the "intuitive" interpretation or the "logical" interpretation, it's all an interpretation until the Devs spell it out. And then you may be either right or you may be wrong. And if you're wrong, then really I guess you've proven that Eladrin truly didn't realize how "stupid some people can be".

The fact of the matter is:
We all know that the initial change of the collision check should have some effect on DPS lag or "attack lag" or whatever. And that this change has no effect in and of itself to lower DPS.

We also can infer that less hits and the damage rolls (aka DPS by the offhand) may also decrease DPS.
And we all know that the Devs want to nerf TWF DPS, because it's too "far superior" to other styles (which means vs. THF because that's the only other viable style).

Now, I really have little problem with the latest numbers presented. Others may think it's not enough because they want "balance", but I think it's okay, if I have to swallow that pill, and that's as far as I'll go.

If you really think that TWF is "overpowered" in EPIC then you are living in a different world then me. AND that's the freaking Endgame they've shoved down our throats.

Oh yes, I know, they'll lower MOB hit points and AC and to-hits. Great, then I want to see it go hand in hand with the changes. I would've had more faith if Grazing Hits had ever realized lower MOB to-hits rather then simply been a way to chip away at High AC characters, because MOB to-hits went way up in Epic, not down. So why should I believe that MOB HP will go down until it actually does?

I'll see what happens in LLama. And of course I'll deal with whatever comes. Even if that includes deleting or relegating characters to "bank status".

Anyway, I'm going to go play the game. I'll check back later to see if you've answered my main question or evaded it once again. Here, in case your reading skills need a hand, is the question again:
How can you think that anyone has any problem with the fact that the offhand collision check is now piggybacked to the main hand? Since that is not a nerf to DPS, how can it be construed as a preference of lag over DPS?
Remember the removal of the offhand collision check and the addition of the offhand proc chance are not the same thing.

[Baahb3]

just slow down the overall combat system and don't nerf anything.

if a hypothetical battle normally takes a minute, add 10% and have said battle take a minute, 6 seconds.

then maybe scale xp by say 5% to compensate for extra battle time.

They tried that once and the result was an agonizingly slow combat, much more so for lower level characters. I don't think they will slow down the attack animations again.

[Borror0]

I really think at this point you've shown that your "above average reading skills" are actually above average rationalization skills.
I'm not sure why you expect me to reply to a post that is written on that tone.

[eonfreon]

I'm not sure why you expect me to reply to a post that is written on that tone.

LOL. But you did respond, you threw your ability to neg rep at it.
I really figured you might answer. But someone who talks about how stupid others are, how poor other people's reading skills are, and how above average your reading skills are, I would have at least hoped you weren't petty enough to neg rep. But hey, what the heck, it'll soon be negated by the pos rep I got.
Yes, my "tone" was "derogatory" because you don't answer the question. You could ignore it, but instead you create rationalizations.

I understand your desire to do "damage control" for Turbine, I really do. After all, they are doing what you feel is fair. But the fact of the matter is Turbine never answered the question if "collision checks are piggybacked and reduce those calculations, are additional DPS reductions needed as well, or are they separate".
Why would the changes need to be reverted (the piggyback check on the main hand) if the offhand chance to proc is removed. Or is that what Turbine meant? That they'll keep the collision check but revert the offhand proc, which will have no effect on DPS and then they'll have to look at other ways to reduce DPS. So are they saying that DPS = lag, and that we'll have to do less DPS? Does that mean that MOBS will have to have less HP or is the design that we'll have to take that much longer to kill MOBS?

Hah, Neg rep for being as snarky to you as you are to the rest of us. Quite sweet. I'll try to make my tone more acceptable to you ;).

[RJBsComputer]

All the numbers you are throwing up are great, but are a little out of context when not being able to see the decision tree that they are set in. One way I think that could help is to pig back more of the RNDs for the main hand to the off hand with fixed percentages across the board on everything. For example:

X= Main Hand To-Hit
X+Y= Main Hand and Off Hand To-Hit
Z= To-Hit RND

If X+Y>=Z then Compute Main Hand + Off Hand dps
Else If X>= Z then Compute Main Hand dps

But if you do this, you well have to make changes in the number of feats and enchancements that classes can choose to keep things at a more or less at the same level they are at now. The fix numbers for combat can be computed and save at leveling and when enchancements are added. Then you just have to compute the to-hit roll and then just use a decision tree to find how many hits happen to compute dps. However; how big is computing dps. Does this slow run time too? That is another question that needs to be looked at and streamed line also.

You seem to be forgetting that Rogues are also a major TWF build and alot of them splashing some ranger and monk into them also. I really think that an overall overhaul to streamline the RNDs and decision trees in the combat area is needed more than trying to put a band-aid on it by changing a few classes as oppose to all the classes.

I can put up with lag if there is a solid and well thought out attack at removing unneed code. If this is done in a way that does not damage the flavor and feel of the game.

[~Tago_Bane]

so basically a lv 20 rogue post update 5 with the three TWF feats will attack at a slower rate, then a lv20 rogue without any of the TWF feats pre update 5 (100%/80%vs 100%/100%) and to top it all off, all the boasts you can get with other features in the game (haste, tempest, figher cap) only indirectly increase the rate of attacks based off of a proc percentage increase that doesn't improve while weilding two wpns.

Don't you think such a drastic change in the base mechanics of the game is gonna cut your customer base in half? I mean seriously, the people actually looking forward to this change have some backwards assumption that TWF is overpowered (clearly never healed a TOD) that is obviously based off of the fact that THF is underpowred (let's not forget that THF requires no feats or dex score to obtain). And the people speaking out against it have spent time and money in building and equiping their toons. How long do you think they are gonna put up with this change that overrides their current investments?

[Tom_Hunters]

ouch i just find that my 2HF pally will lose glancing blows while running and under Zeal...

how sad

[zealous]

Say you're a game designer on a new game and you want to convince others to add that feature into the game, how do you explain to them that "twitching" would be a beneficial to gameplay? Please describe how the mechanism would work first, too.

If you were a doctor and wanted to convince your patient with a bleeding wound that stuffing the wound with mouldy bread would make them better, how do you explain it to them?

This isn't the case of a new game and a new feature. It's the case of what is. What we have is a large group of players having spent time with the feature saying that it makes the game more fun.



The best I could come up with, personally, is this:

I would fire you on the spot. But then again, you're not being quite honest since you're not trying to "sell" twitch but rather present twitch in a bad light.



"I would like to add another feature to the game called 'Oscillation Acceleration.'

Not a very good convincing name, I'd call it "Real combat".



Whenever a character moves slightly back and forth, he gains a +10% bonus to attack speed that it cannot have if standing still.

This is not quite how twitch works. You might get that impression if your only experience is from watching the vids of Shade etc. Generally while twitching, rocking back and forth would be counterproductive since maneuvering into a advantageous position would be beneficial.

Look up a player that really can twitch on the move, or just take a moment to think about how much you can move between the swings of the moving attack, or try it out yourself.



Despite being counterintuitive

Actually, it's quite intuitive. Have you tried swinging a heavy object using only your arms?
Try it. Now try doing it while rotating your upper body while keeping the position of your feet locked. Then try doing it while rotating your entire body, and your feet e.g. by raising the heels from the ground. And finally take a step and swing.

It's about shifting balance and creating momentum, that's easier if you move a bit.



and a bit goofy,

Actually, apart from the axe moving flick o da wrist attack, it doesn't look that bad, kinda similar to the fourth standing animation, way better than the third standing animation.



I think it would be good for the game because it rewards players with the skills

Rewarding skill should be good, yah?



and patience to perform this overly repetitive act, over and over again.

It is more repetetive than holding the autoattack button? No it isn't.
Twitch requires some measure of timing, to make it work well and be fun you need to use the time of the moving attack to maneuver. It is highly variable though it is limited by your timing since missing the beat will launch you into the slower parts of the standing chain.



Gameplay test will show that most players don't like it, but they are not the targeted demographic.

I have seen accounts of players not quite being able to do it. The majority of accounts have been from players saying that it's more fun and makes the game more enjoyable.

Some people might not care for grinding the shroud, some people might not care for learning to twitch.

It is quite easy to get a grasp of the basics, just carry a 2h weapon and practice a few swings while waiting for player x to get back from his bio/arrive at the quest/join the group. Actually making it work in dynamic combat is a whole different beast, that takes some time but it's fun once you learn it.



It's aimed at very hardcore players, who will like being special - having both the patience and skill to do something most would not do."

That's just silly. I'm casual, I can twitch.



I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.
If twitching was like that aye, however, it is not.



The number is voluntarily off because Aesop said "twitching" should be "effective and a benefit without decimating the competition" so I put a number so would be closer to the ballpark she'd be aiming for, rather than the current number (whatever it is).
Wrong. That number is acctually fairly close though possibly a overestimation.

With glancing blows while moving, twitching brings a too large benefit. Without it though it is fairly close.

Twitching grants a ~25% attack speed advantage, glancing blows grants 0.3 times (base damage +30). So +15% base damage + 4.5 + effects for twitching.
---
You are really missing the important point though. Irregardless of attack speed increase or not. Twitching makes it possible to maneuver without loosing efficiency. If you're 2wf or S&B, moving in any way generally results in a loss of efficiency. This is bad since one of DDOs greatest strengths is the dynamic combat.

Say you're a game designer on a new game and you want to convince others to add that feature into the game, how do you explain to them that "standing still" would be a beneficial to gameplay? Please describe how the mechanism would work first, too.

"I would like to add another feature to the game called 'Inertia Acceleration.'

I know we have this engine supporting dynamic combat with movement, reactions etc. But my idea is to make standing still advantageous so the game becomes more boring. ;)

[stz]

If you were...

win.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't know if Green Steel's design cause a greater load or not. Do you?
Player testing has strongly indicated that it does. Eladrin's comment about possibly needing to change greensteel is reinforcement.

However, there is no good technical reason why greensteel would have any effect- if it does matter, it must be because of improper programming that can be corrected without touching the game design.

[Calebro]

so basically a lv 20 rogue post update 5 with the three TWF feats will attack at a slower rate, then a lv20 rogue without any of the TWF feats pre update 5 (100%/80%vs 100%/100%)

This is just flat out incorrect.
If you're going to rant, having your facts straight would really help.

[Dazalarian]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.

Look at my builds. Several are not standard, nor optimized, but they still perform well enough at endgame that they are acceptable in raids and epics. This will hurt most of my builds to the point I will have to finally suck it up and TR, or at minimum, LR them to one of 2 acceptable builds, and that sucks. A lot.

This is spot on, every word of it.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Camarde]

Shroud with high twf dps not always lag, your problem is too improve your server.
TWF is better against 1 single target, THF is better agaisnt several target.
TWF cost more stat,feat and gear, THF is easier to do and stuff.
Things are balanced IMO stop to nerf things for no reason.
DA was an epic fail to fix lag but a great success to decrease the fun.
This change will be the same.
This will be a reduction to the variety of build viable, that have already been seriously reduce.
Nerf everythings that is good dont make sense, balanced the game by giving different option to all build.
Change things without giving a free and easy to rebuild stuff and character, TR take lot of time, GS cant be deconstructed.

Bad changes.

[Blktom]

My opinion....

Monks do not have the Fighter BAB in 3.5, so remove the 'balanced BAB'. Let them keep the stances and strikes.

Increase the GTWF feat Dex requirment to 19, like in table top.

These are the 3 main fighting types... All 3 of these styles should be balanced in DDO like they are balanced in 3.5.

THW- 1 swing for bigger damage, no shield
TWF- 2 swings = THW damage, but both have to hit. Reduced BAB and no Shield.
Sword and Board- 1 swing for half the THF damage, +7-9 AC from Shield.

Obviously, if your using a THW with your Ranger, your not using your strengths, but the 4 'fighter' classes are all based on these 3 styles of combat. In this game, people make different styles than I might list, but that is personal preference. What I list are the 'classic' styles with each type.


Ranger...
Cons: d8 HD, Light Armor, care about 4 stats
Pros: TWF with no Dex requirment, spells, 6 skill points per lvl
Melee fighting style: TWF

Barb...
Cons: Medium armor, Rage gives a -2(plus) to AC
Pros: d12 HD, 4 skill points per lvl, Rage
Melee fighting style: THW

Fighter...
Cons: 2 Skill points per lvl
Pros: Feats, special fighter only feats, Heavy Armor, Tower Shield
Melee fighting style: All three

Paladin...
Cons: 2skill points per lvl, care about 5 stats
Pros: Spells, Heavy Armor, Smite & LOH, Grace
Melee fighting style: Sword and Board

As you can see, all should be balanced. They should be as balanced in DDO as they are in D&D 3.5.

[Obrezze]

Why not put better hardware?

It costs a bit but will work better ;)

Nerfing TWF sucks too much

[Macushi]

Why not put better hardware?
Nerfing TWF sucks too much

Rewrite combat mechanics?
Get better servers - speed to the traffic?

The game is working just fine in Europe, basically no lag that matters.
So....you have it there, why mess it up here?

[Razcar]

holy **** batman! my drow dex build ranger is required to have an epic docent now!It should fit, with enough vaseline & violence

[Aesop]

So, after a little thought, completely negating Glancing Blows on moving seems like a bad idea to me.

Instead can we just reduce the chance of a glancing blow while moving instead?

I know it already has 50% chance... but can we lower that further?

Can we drop that down to 25% chance instead?

can we toss in a few buffs to this update to balance the feeling of NERF... I mean I don't really mind most of the nerfs over all, but I also like the idea that other styles may become more viable. Simply nerfing THF and TWF doesn't make S&B actually more viable, it actually makes it so you need more TWF or THF to maintain current output.

or something like that ;)

Also adding in a few buffs would ease the tension a little.

Consider using the Proc chance to add Shield Bash attacks to the normal attack chain. Also consider adding Shield Block on hit Proc chance :D

Aesop

[Sinni]

This it 5-th time I read Eladrins post. Not even a word about eSoS nerf. Much less in the next update.

Do you want to discuss that again? :D

[krogyy]

as it seems that STWF made it on Lamnia i would like to suggest a tweak of that feat:

make the prerequisites GTWF and either 15 BAB or 19 dex

this will make it accessible to all full BAB classes AND finesse builds.
as it should be, imho

[lordic]

Let me see if i understand correctly, before a paladin (or fighter) with full twf line would have 100% of off hand attacks and now 55%? so, you are nerfing off hand attacks 45% for the paladin (or fighter)
Besides, the 10% double attack now will only affect the main hand, before a 10% attack speed increased main hand and off hand attack speed... i m ok with consolidating check for lag controlling, but why the nerf?

Full twf should have 100% off hand attacks, and double attack chance should procs for main hand and off hand (depending on how many twf feats the char has, so for a full twf char it will proc for both attacks 100%)

Keep ranger tempest bonus a 10% to double attack as paladin zeal and fighter capstone, if you want you can give extra 5% for tempest II and III...

ranger tempests have less hp then pallys and ftrs...do you think they shouldnt get like a increased dps output or something?if not who in their right mind would make a ranger?

[R0cksteady]

as it seems that STWF made it on Lamnia i would like to suggest a tweak of that feat:

make the prerequisites GTWF and either 15 BAB or 19 dex

this will make it accessible to all full BAB classes AND finesse builds.
as it should be, imho

I would sign this petition. Would hate to have to put MORE points into dex than I already have to for GTWF. So this would be good for fighters who have better places to put points than dex, and good for rogues and monks that don't have the BAB but could build for finesse builds.

[R0cksteady]

ranger tempests have less hp then pallys and ftrs...do you think they shouldnt get like a increased dps output or something?if not who in their right mind would make a ranger?

Rangers get spells over fighters for self buffing, AND versatility to make them good with bows while still optimizing DPS with TWF.

[Scraap]

The more I read this thread, the more I think: what about weapon proc immunities? Sure, DPS is important a lot of the time, but when it comes to Red/Purple boss fights, it's ALL about DPS. Why?

Well the boss is immune to my wounding/weakening/etc weapons. A CR X boss is immune where a CR X trash mob in another area/quest isn't. Why?

Presumably because the boss fight would be over too soon without the immunity. So throw 10k hp at the boss, make them immune to all but holy/bane damage (and a couple of other effects like destruction and curse) and make DPS the way to draw out a fight. That seems to have been the logic so far. But does the immunity have to be a COMPLETE immunity?

Perhaps on a level playing field TWF SHOULD DO LESS DPS than THF in general- but this would be offset by the increased number of weapon effect procs that TWF could throw at the boss. My dual puncturing rapiers should most certainly occasionally drain a constitution point, but us potential boss-slayers aren't immune to this!

I'd suggest something like this to level the playing field a bit:
* letting bosses have restoration potions/spells/abilities with suitable concentration checks but remove the blanket immunity altogether, or
* making the PC roll an extra attack roll against the boss' AC, or if balance requires it, AC + 10, or require that confirmation to be a 20, or give them a resist roll, or whatever, to get the effect through once in a while - and just as with players the boss stats would regen over time during the fight.

With either of the above, boss' max HP could be lowered along with overall DPS totals. The high attack rate toons could live with their lowered attack rates and even damage since they would actually be capable of whittling down boss stats in a way at least similar to trash mobs.

Think of the elation if someone actually managed to vorpal the boss with the odds of confirming such a thing set to many thousands to one against! "Hmmm... do we do the charm/whittle thing with the Hound, or do we charge it and hope someone gets lucky - but probably wipe?" "Uh oh, the trash mobs have trashed the rest of the party. I'm the barb, the hound will spot me at any moment. Switch to vorpal and CHEEAARRRRRRRRGE!" If it works... :)

Yes it would need to be balanced/tuned, but it immediately removes the importance of pure DPS party members, while not making them useless at the same time. Worth thinking about?

Not to fall back on a meme-of-the-month, but THIS^^^^ I'd spend APs to up proc DCs in a new york minute if it gave a *chance* to be generally usefull as an alternative to 'just keep smashy with big stick till makey hurty thing fall down'

[Dim_Mak]

I wonder, if this "update" ever gets in a place..are we going to need to re-roll or rebuild or what???
and I really can't believe that it's all about the "lag"....
i really invested too much in some of my toons to be nerfed over night.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I wonder, if this "update" ever gets in a place..are we going to need to re-roll or rebuild or what???
and I really can't believe that it's all about the "lag"....
i really invested too much in some of my toons to be nerfed over night.

This is probably not going to necessitate re-rolling your toons. It will be an across the board change, everyone gets effected. TWF and THF damage numbers are simply being brought closer together. Let the 'leets cry it out...

[grodon9999]

The game is working just fine in Europe, basically no lag that matters.
So....you have it there, why mess it up here?

Does Europe have 1 million players?

[Krag]

Do you want to discuss that again? :D

At this point I only want to discuss one thing:
What is the best feat choice for arcane archer?

[Dazalarian]

Does Europe have 1 million players?

If you believe the US servers have 1 million players, I got a nice bridge for sale as well. US servers have 1 million accounts and that is a big difference.

Cheers,
-Daz

[grodon9999]

If you believe the US servers have 1 million players, I got a nice bridge for sale as well. US servers have 1 million accounts and that is a big difference.

Cheers,
-Daz

I know there aren't 1 million people on at the same time, but is the server load in Europe the same as the US? it's a legit question.

[Ollathir]

What do I like?

The nerfs.
They show that Turbine isn't afraid to do what has to be done to achieve balance.

Im glad they slowed things down enough for you.


Anyone have any actual feedback on the combat system changes on Lama?

[SquelchHU]

At this point I only want to discuss one thing:
What is the best feat choice for arcane archer?

Improved Kiting. It leads to a super secret awesome capstone.

Don't tell the devs but...

It's the secret to a certain well known Argonian AA's success.

[Krag]

Improved Kiting. It leads to a super secret awesome capstone.

Don't tell the devs but...

It's the secret to a certain well known Argonian AA's success.

Vorpal Strike? :eek:

[grodon9999]

So with the proposed nerfs - about how many attack per minute will a Tempest III get compared to a Ranger 20 who doesn't have Tempest? I want to crunch the numbers and see if an Arcane Archer who melees when Manyshot is down will actually have higher DPS now.

[testing1234]

just come from lammania were i tested the new TWF on my bard (bab15 GTWF)
its a very big nerf, and you do notice the offhand not triggering all the time.
it was intensely frustrating because i noticed each time the offhand did not trigger and had the same feeling as when you keep missing only no way of raising your +tohit.
likely this is something you get used to but short term would have preferd they simply lowered attack speed by 10% none of my characters that misses on a 2 has been fun to play and eventually has been deleted or converted into bank space toon.
lack of adventure packs on lammania prevented a more extensive test so to soon to tell if its TR time and start eSoS grinding, one reason i didnt make it a THF was that i dont like von.
ironic as the bard was orginally THF and TR:ed into TWF.


feel sorry for europe players they get the dps-lagg-fix-nerf without actually having dps lagg issues

edited: on lammania GTWF gives your offhand 80% to hit

[SquelchHU]

So with the proposed nerfs - about how many attack per minute will a Tempest III get compared to a Ranger 20 who doesn't have Tempest? I want to crunch the numbers and see if an Arcane Archer who melees when Manyshot is down will actually have higher DPS now.

105%/80% vs 100%/60%.

Total of -5% main hand, -20% offhand.

[Irked]

My favorite toon was turned into storage space already, because repeaters have no place in endgame, every mob now has blanket immunities to every status effect, and it is impossible to dps with a repeater. So i suffered through building a new twf character just to be able to get into groups. At current my twf build is ranger monk rogue, high ac build using kamas, thinking they would have been needed to keep the ac bonus from monk. After the fact i found out that i did not need to stay centered. So im still under par and now your gonna cut my dps down even more. I already cant do epics, have 0 epic eq, and 0 chance of getting any in the current set. So by all means nerf my dps more, wow is looking dam good.
As a closing statement, i built my characters according to the rules as i knew them, i have never switched my favorite toon due to finding something i enjoy playing more. It is always because turbine makes the toon totaly ineffective and useless. So plz nerf my last useable character so i can just leave ddo and know that there is no point in playing a persistant game that just flat out destroys your work every few months for giggles. All i know is if these changes go live and i dont get 2 true hearts of wood to start over since the rules changed im outa here, ill give my money to blizzard instead.

[Irked]

There are those of us that refuse to make the cookie cutter build needed to accepted in endgame/epic. To date i can count on 1 hand the number of epic missions i have done. My 2 fav characters use repeaters and kamas, not the most powerful weapons but i tried to make due. This latest proposed change will take me from useless in epics, to dont even think about them. All i ask is that u put an epic kama or repeater in the game. or something to off set the nerf for those dual kopesh wielding monsters. Im not 1 of them but your changes will effect me just as much as them. Thanks again for nerfing the non power gamer. I do appreciate being grouped with the power gamers, but i dont belong there.

[grodon9999]

Thanks again for nerfing the non power gamer. I do appreciate being grouped with the power gamers, but i dont belong there.

Truth - the non-power gamers are gonna get screwed worse than anybody

[grodon9999]

105%/80% vs 100%/60%.

Total of -5% main hand, -20% offhand.

If these numbers are right you're better off being an Arcane Archer who switches to melee when Manyshot is off.

[Magusrex777]

The issue I have the most concern with is THF and TWH are going to be extremely close now. It just seems harder to build a TWF fighting character because it has less flexibility. I am a relatively new player. Without 32-builds, Tomes or in game currency I chose to play a Drow KotC TWF Paladin(Thanks Junts) for a number of reasons. I would get my boss beaters for free at level 14 and I could use the stat bonuses of the Drow effectively for Divine Might III and the dex needed for TWF. My build has no flexibility though.

I also have a Dwarven THF 28 point Barbarian build(Thanks Shade) that is very flexible and I can flavor it a number of ways and still be quite effective. I looked into making other 2 weapon fighting melee character and as a new player without tomes, 32 builds or huge amounts of cash, I couldn’t make one. I felt I had a number of THF options at 28 points and the need for half the weapons cut the cash investment needed substantially.

I suggest combining GTWF and ITWF into one feat, if you are going to cut our DPS, give us a feat back we can use on flavor or versatility. I would be happy with the DPS decrease if I could get an extra feat.

[SquelchHU]

If these numbers are right you're better off being an Arcane Archer who switches to melee when Manyshot is off.

Well, given that they are the numbers from the original post the only way they would be wrong is if Eladrin is lying.

And seems I was right. Rangers are dead (you really think people will click accept to Arcane Archers? I'd decline me if I was an Arcane Archer).

[thenalim]

sounds like this could very well cause a massive emigration from ddo. That will probably reduce lag a lot.

[~Geistlich11]

So, I'm somewhat confused. Instead of actually addressing the problem of whatever it is that causes DPS to lag things, DPS is simply going to be lowered to solve the problem?

I'm a relatively new player. I played a little in Beta and didn't like it. I recently returned and I quite enjoy it. The only thing I've disliked so far is that there are so few builds that qualify as "end-game contributors". I hate feeling like I have to drop cash for 32 point builds and make a Khopesh wielding Kensei fighter or a THF Barb to be considered DPS. I play a Monk and while I know my DPS isn't amazing, nor will I ever be in high demand end game, I enjoy playing it.

Nerfing TWF will take an already relatively weak character and make him weaker, and it will force even more people to create one of the (now fewer) sustainable DPS class/feat combinations. This adjustment may solve some problems at the very highest echelon of your player base, but the casual or new player is going to have an even harder time.

[Ollathir]

just come from lammania were i tested the new TWF on my bard (bab15 GTWF)
its a very big nerf, and you do notice the offhand not triggering all the time.
it was intensely frustrating because i noticed each time the offhand did not trigger and had the same feeling as when you keep missing only no way of raising your +tohit.
likely this is something you get used to but short term would have preferd they simply lowered attack speed by 10% none of my characters that misses on a 2 has been fun to play and eventually has been deleted or converted into bank space toon.
lack of adventure packs on lammania prevented a more extensive test so to soon to tell if its TR time and start eSoS grinding, one reason i didnt make it a THF was that i dont like von.
ironic as the bard was orginally THF and TR:ed into TWF.


feel sorry for europe players they get the dps-lagg-fix-nerf without actually having dps lagg issues

edited: on lammania GTWF gives your offhand 80% to hit

Suprised at the miss chance, esp if you have GTWF, not suprised at the game feel. Warchanter by chance? Anything new combat wise for songs?

[Inkblack]

I notice lag in three places.

1 - Subterrane by VoD. If we are to believe the physics checks are the culprit, then it is probably the massive number of players / monsters that are active in that area at once.

2 - ToD part 2. Lots of DPS just like in the other areas of the raid, but also the physics checks of the shadowfiend aura.

3 - Shroud part 4. Lots of DPS like the other areas of the raid, but also the swords running around with their physics checks.

So what's my point? These changes address the physics checks generated by the players, but do NOT address the physics checks generated by the monsters. I would like to know if that side of the DPS lag is being addressed. Maybe the extra checks are just pushing it over the edge, but it seems that the monster side is the real culprit.

Ink

[Ollathir]

I notice lag in three places.

1 - Subterrane by VoD. If we are to believe the physics checks are the culprit, then it is probably the massive number of players / monsters that are active in that area at once.

2 - ToD part 2. Lots of DPS just like in the other areas of the raid, but also the physics checks of the shadowfiend aura.

3 - Shroud part 4. Lots of DPS like the other areas of the raid, but also the swords running around with their physics checks.

So what's my point? These changes address the physics checks generated by the players, but do NOT address the physics checks generated by the monsters. I would like to know if that side of the DPS lag is being addressed. Maybe the extra checks are just pushing it over the edge, but it seems that the monster side is the real culprit.

Ink

Ink is that inside Lama?

[Ollathir]

So, I'm somewhat confused. Instead of actually addressing the problem of whatever it is that causes DPS to lag things, DPS is simply going to be lowered to solve the problem?

I'm a relatively new player. I played a little in Beta and didn't like it. I recently returned and I quite enjoy it. The only thing I've disliked so far is that there are so few builds that qualify as "end-game contributors". I hate feeling like I have to drop cash for 32 point builds and make a Khopesh wielding Kensei fighter or a THF Barb to be considered DPS. I play a Monk and while I know my DPS isn't amazing, nor will I ever be in high demand end game, I enjoy playing it.

Nerfing TWF will take an already relatively weak character and make him weaker, and it will force even more people to create one of the (now fewer) sustainable DPS class/feat combinations. This adjustment may solve some problems at the very highest echelon of your player base, but the casual or new player is going to have an even harder time.

It was decided by the developers of the game that TWF was extremely overpowered. This plays well because the pysics check, made .15 sec after the main hand of a TWF supposedly is responsible for a some of the lag. By removing the opportunity to use your offhand with a % based system vs a static number of times, you will generally get fewer chances to use your off-hand, lowering effectiveness of TWF. The removal of the second physics check was to address some but not all issues of lag.

This effects quite a few people across the board. Both new and those that have played for several years equiping and building characters based on the in game mechanics.

The only thing I can suggest is if you can access Lamania, do it. Review the combat situation and feel of gameplay. And post your findings here.

[SkyCry]

So how about not removing glancing blows from THF on the move, but make Spring Attack feat a condition for them?

Also if moving while attacking would not simply give -4 to hit, but was the effective -4 BAB (which would decrease attack speed with the new BAB implementation), then this would also decrease twitch combat. Those who really like twitch combat can invest in the feats and hence the DPS increase from twitch combat would costs something.

[jeremyt]

If speed of attacks is a problem, how about this instead.

1. leave speed mechanics exactly how it is now
2. slow down all melee by 20%
3. reduce mob hp by 20% to compensate

A side effect, spell damage will be more effective but meh. This is fair to all builds, twf, thf, monks, ranger splashed, and everything.

I agree 100% here. The various stages of regaining dps for very particular builds (the fighter capstone, paladin zeal, tempest III, monk wind stance IV) set new benchmarks in the structure of character building that absolutely change the character creation dynamic people have grown to love and invested so much time and REAL MONEY into.

Lets see, my 13 rogue 7 monk WF staff wielder..goes from suboptimal fun flavor build to straight unuseful piker. I spent 25$ real money on a +2 supreme tome for him. I bought monk and WF to create him. I spent many many hours gathering gear for him.

My next favorite toon is WF 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue unarmed. Much the same as above, bought him a +2 everything tome, he also needed WF and monk to exist. These cost me REAL MONEY. I was purchasing these items to play a game system that I anticipated being static and worth investing my REAL MONEY and TIME into. So now that I have a monk that is unable to get later wind stances, my toon i am very proud of and play happily is junk?

I repeat, do not change the d&d character creation system. I am one of those new folks who came round after you went f2p and became the hallmark of your massive cash infusion to the tune of 200+ dollars. I vote no, not just no, but HELL no. I have THFs currently and feel their utility is subpar to TRed folks running dual greensteels at 12..and have yet to taste the glory of epic sos..but i feel the system is currently at a state where small tweaks to existing ENHANCEMENTS and ITEMS will completely balance the system. Nerf epic SoS a bit (and madstone for that matter), create some viable epic TWF options and secondary THF options. And for god sakes, help bring monk balance UP to par and realize this code proposal has such far reaching build killing affects it WILL drive away players.

Will i leave if all the sudden my suboptimal toons become absolutely worthless? I wouldnt be happy. Also, I have read multiple posts calling for LRs (I believe should include tome reimbs), greensteel deconstructs or anything else to mitigate the time and MONEY invested into making toons in the old system work with the new system. WHY? at least field a single response to this very very VERY VERY VERY real concern. your changing the rules, and throwing many people's money and time out the window. If your not offering tools to adapt the old player base to a BRAND NEW SYSTEM, I will leave. I simply cannot afford to spend that much money to see it ****ed on and ignored. Why would I spend more money if you get to change the rules again without following d&d rules or keeping current builds 100% viable.

[Dim_Mak]

I agree 100% here. The various stages of regaining dps for very particular builds (the fighter capstone, paladin zeal, tempest III, monk wind stance IV) set new benchmarks in the structure of character building that absolutely change the character creation dynamic people have grown to love and invested so much time and REAL MONEY into.

Lets see, my 13 rogue 7 monk WF staff wielder..goes from suboptimal fun flavor build to straight unuseful piker. I spent 25$ real money on a +2 supreme tome for him. I bought monk and WF to create him. I spent many many hours gathering gear for him.

My next favorite toon is WF 12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue unarmed. Much the same as above, bought him a +2 everything tome, he also needed WF and monk to exist. These cost me REAL MONEY. I was purchasing these items to play a game system that I anticipated being static and worth investing my REAL MONEY and TIME into. So now that I have a monk that is unable to get later wind stances, my toon i am very proud of and play happily is junk?

I repeat, do not change the d&d character creation system. I am one of those new folks who came round after you went f2p and became the hallmark of your massive cash infusion to the tune of 200+ dollars. I vote no, not just no, but HELL no. I have THFs currently and feel their utility is subpar to TRed folks running dual greensteels at 12..and have yet to taste the glory of epic sos..but i feel the system is currently at a state where small tweaks to existing ENHANCEMENTS and ITEMS will completely balance the system. Nerf epic SoS a bit (and madstone for that matter), create some viable epic TWF options and secondary THF options. And for god sakes, help bring monk balance UP to par and realize this code proposal has such far reaching build killing affects it WILL drive away players.

Will i leave if all the sudden my suboptimal toons become absolutely worthless? I wouldnt be happy. Also, I have read multiple posts calling for LRs (I believe should include tome reimbs), greensteel deconstructs or anything else to mitigate the time and MONEY invested into making toons in the old system work with the new system. WHY? at least field a single response to this very very VERY VERY VERY real concern. your changing the rules, and throwing many people's money and time out the window. If your not offering tools to adapt the old player base to a BRAND NEW SYSTEM, I will leave. I simply cannot afford to spend that much money to see it ****ed on and ignored. Why would I spend more money if you get to change the rules again without following d&d rules or keeping current builds 100% viable.
+1
Couldn't agree more.
This i just making me cancel.

[tasebro]

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks

...and the problem with that, Eladrin, is that many of us are pay-as-you-go players; as such, we pay real US dollars in exchange for specific account in-game benefits/tools manifested via our toon builds; most of said benefits can only be manifested via our toons and in no other way...and being gamers, many of us us choose to invest our resources building optimized toons in order to interact with things in general the way we prefer to , and get the most out of some aspect/feature that we can, in particular by applying those limited resources available in the most advantageous way we can find, given the constraints of the DnD ruleset as adapted. We also then invest real time within the system in developing these raw builds into viable constructs in the pursuit to fullfill as much of the given potential as we can. The devs apparently see the result of TWF (et. al.) as "overpowered", and have moved to thwart our in-game efforts pursuant to same. Thing is, I paid you guys real dollars for specific in-game benefits which you are now arbitrarily degrading (namely: attack speed, and the bonuses to hard stats to that back it up). That means I suffer a significant loss, with no benefit to offset it. That is an inequitable action at best, and fraudulent at worst. The real consequence of that action, and the resulting loss, is all sense of ownership and interactive control over in-game character development and functionality is destroyed for me, the player. The clear indication on your part is that any in-game investment (such as TWF speed boosts) delivering a return that is considered "too good" will be punished with degradation. That is NOT what i paid you guys for here. I gave you guys money with an expectation of actually being able to employ some specific in-game benefit/functionality that is now going away.

I am not alone here in saying that, from your numbers, it is clear this TWF nerf will for sure kill the viability (albeit 'sub-optimal' as it now is) of one of my rather likeable custom builds, and I think it clear that the devs are aware of this, and intent on doing it regardless of the forseeable negative consequences; my favorite custom toon is a very tight TWF build as it is (yet consistent, effective, and fun), and it simply cannot survive the degredation this nerf will force, and there is no way to modify it now "to do something else".
All the money and time I invested in that build will be rendered worthless as of next update.
You are breaking my toon, so what do I get out of this? Do I get compensated for my money and time that is soon-to-be rendered useless?
This latest update 5 nerfing of TWF will screw up my basic interface with how my custom toon works in the game--specifically, my mouse click sends my "request" for the two dice roll checks I am rightly due (one roll right side, the other roll left side)--backed up by that +2 stat tome and feat/skill bonuses I bought--and with this nerf, you guys are taking the dice out of my hands, which disenfranchises me playing my toon, so therefore disenfranchises me playing this game to near full potential; and so therefore decreases the fun factor significantly (by 50 per cent of my dice rolls to be exact, not even counting the loss of the ability to attack two separate targets simultaneously, nor the nerfed secondary attacks, which apparently will start at -5%, -15% effectiveness for the very BEST possible case and rapidly drop from there to "negligible" for the rest of us).
Why should I bother building a custom toon at all? Ergo, why should I send you guys any MORE of my money pursuant to that end, or even refer new players with similar interests in tinkering with builds (instead of warning them off)?

So I ask the question, how exactly does this serve me, the player? How does your breaking my favorite toon fix the problem at hand? Do you have enough of my money and dont need any more? Cuz it looks like that is where we are going here.

There is always an opportunity cost with every decision. The cost on this one is too big, and the benefit highly questionable. You guys need to rethink the consequences of your actions before the damage is done. Don't become another blizzard, inc.
Do not make the mistake of underestimating the negative effect the decision to implement this nerf will have on player interest; I suspect a good portion of devoted, quality players will see it the same way as I do, and I think its pretty clear now that Turbine seriously undervalues player interest manifested in "sense of ownership".

This nerf is exactly the same as a tabletop DnD game master declaring: "...well yes, your PC with TWF should indeed get two dice rolls, but I am only going to let you roll one, then I will TELL you what the second result is, because I am too busy to deal with your 2 dice rolls, so you shall only get just one roll at the same time as everyone else with no speed bonus...".
That is not acceptable, and neither is this TWF nerf.
There is a simple premise here you guys are missing: LET THE DICE DECIDE. Dont take take the dice out of my hands and decide the issue for me--if i was into that sort of cheap "game balance", then I would be playing World Of Warcraft etc, rather than DDO (and I would not build toons to optimize TWF, now would I?). You guys have to be better than that.

You say your 'solution' to DPS lag problem must involve gimping our DPS, and that is not acceptable, nor I suspect even truly necessary, merely convenient.
I have no doubt you guys have other several other options available to address DPS lag problems that do not involve taking away my earned right to throw two dice
at a target in game, nor obviating my having the diligence in choice of build options.

In the meantime consider this: if you guys are admitting that you are not going to devote sufficient resources to handle the existing TWF DPS lag problem, and so nerfing TWF is the "appropriate" action to make, then in good faith you MUST at least compromise in good faith, and give all of us who have up to now invested in TWF specs a BETTER "deal" than we currently have pre-update5, NOT worse, otherwise you are just gimping our toons for the sake of your own convenience.
The point is though that I do NOT want a "better deal" here--what I do want is a fair chance to roll my 2 dice--and JUST my 2 dice--as fast as I can as allowed by the rules as advertised, that's all. If you cant give me that, then give me the best you have to give me, but for dang sure don't arbitrarily gimp my multi-classed two weapon fighter speced toon, and tell me "its for game balance" cuz if i wanted cheap "game balance" I would play wow, now wouldn't I?.

Sorry for the over-long post. Hope this helps.

[Aesop]

+1
Couldn't agree more.
This i just making me cancel.

do you realized that you just agreed to 20% slower melee combat?

[ShortRanger]

My toons are being built to be soloists, vaiations on Tempest Ranger. My game play style is primarily solo with an occasional duo or triplet thrown in.

I do not do raids.
I do not do large groups.

I have yet to experience this DPS lag through level 10 and could care less if you fix it or not.

With pushing 200 pages and over 3000 responses I am unwilling to read I would like to know:

How are the proposed changes going to affect my game experience?

[BlackSteel]

I dont agree with any of the changes, but its kinda funny seeing all the huff n puff about how rangers will recieve about 17-20% net loss in DPS. With several other classes falling shortly behind them. all the hub bub about the SoS.

But dont think I've seen anyone mention how that stacks up for a barbarian after the next patch. Consider an end game geared Barb

loses ~30% from eSoS nerf
loses 10% capstone (bugged so no real complaint here)
loses glancing blows 10-15%(depending on weapon/monster fort)
madstone nerf 10%

DPS post patch will drop roughly 60%. granted any THF melee can expect a high loss as well. fighter's % lost from glancing will be smaller, while pure pally's will be slightly higher.

well I guess congratulations are in order, TWF even with the nerf should be considerable more damage than THF'ers now. Even funnier is hearing everyone complain about how fast an eSoS takes down stunned trash mobs, last I checked dual greensteel picks do the job even faster. Or god forbid a TWF pally smiting with picks.

[Bluenoser]

Sorry for the rude tone, but this change really is b.s., and is pretty clearly about more than fixing lag. All of the "pro" responses crying about the current gap in DPS between TWF and THF are conveniently ignoring (as others have already noted) that THF have the edge against multiple targets - a pretty **** big advantage in this game. An end-game TWF build is geared toward putting a single opponent down faster - a different melee philosophy, pure and simple (and one that isn't offset by the Whirlwind feat - too slow, too many prereqs required), and one that requires higher DPS for TWF to be viable. TWFs take a HUGE investment in feats, stats and enhancements, and this should be rewarded in some pretty spectacular melee performance. Gimping TWF at this point is not simply totally unfair to existing toons, it's an unnecessary narrowing of playing styles (the current gimping of highly mobile dex-based fighters is bad enough).

I haven't been able to read all 160+ posts on this, but from what I've even read so far, there are some very good alternative suggestions for easing the calculations on TWF that are supposedly contributing to lag. Please try something less drastic before taking a scorched-earth policy towards TWFs.

<please note - while I do have a TWF toon, I also play a THF and spellcasters. I like variety, and the current ability to do so is one of DDO's great strengths. Don't lose it!>

[Aesop]

My toons are being built to be soloists, vaiations on Tempest Ranger. My game play style is primarily solo with an occasional duo or triplet thrown in.

I do not do raids.
I do not do large groups.

I have yet to experience this DPS lag through level 10 and could care less if you fix it or not.

With pushing 200 pages and over 3000 responses I am unwilling to read I would like to know:

How are the proposed changes going to affect my game experience?

You lose a bit of DPS due to fewer attacks on average.

TWF is still pretty much top tier, but the tier has been lowered a touch.

Hopefully if this is going to overtly effect quests (likely epic) then I hope they reduce the HP of those critters slightly.

I believe someone put the number that rangers lose around 17%... though I'm not sure what that is based upon.

This mod will be nerfing a large portion of builds, but I don't believe this is going to invalidate any of them... its fairly universally lowering things

Aesop

[Dentali]

I've always found it interesting why Blizzard has the most successful game around, even though the actual gameplay is not very challenging and rather dry for item customization, but the reasons are fairly clear with Turbine's mishap here. Blizzard advertises their game. They also cater to many different ages of player. They have a set class list that is fairly balanced; you don't have the option of making a warlock warrior or anything like that. Set classes make games easier to edit, by far. With this update we see a classic example of a gaming company not knowing how to run their game at all.

We've already watched one or two other games get annihilated because of financial mishaps or poor development in the past few months, which I'd hoped would've been a lesson to Turbine to lay low for a while. Instead, they come out with bold changes like this for a select few players who are complaining over lag and decide to just nerf dps as a whole, as well as the most favored style of combat in ANY game in history.

Think about it: players play classes that dual wield most often in any game they play. EQ1, what classes were the most used? Warriors, Rangers, Monks, and Beastlords. All of those classes could dual wield. Dual-wielding is just the most fun gaming style for a lot of people in games that offer a lot of classes that can do it. Now, what do we see in DDO? Dual wielding as the most chosen fighting style BY FAR. This is simply a trend that players choose because it is the most fun for them, not because they do the most dps. Some people pick them because they do heavy dps, but a vast majority of players play dual-wielders because it's more fun. So, what does nerfing the most desired playstyle to the point where they require 4 feats to do any sort of decent damage do? It kills desire for people to give money up to a company that can't even realize what people like to play best. Nerfing players in any sort of game that has multi-classing in any way is about the WORST business move a gaming company could ever possibly make. All you've done is taken people like jeremyt's (and there are MANY who play classes which can dual wield but are not insane dps) characters and made them useless.

I don't know about anyone else, but the way I know it is when a product is advertised a certain way and promised, and someone pays for that product and gets something completely different or of much lesser value, that is considered fraud. Turbine, in this instance, has pretty much sucked up all the money a good majority of their paying playerbase that use TWF and pocketed it, then decided to alienate all those customers that gave them what they wanted.

This nerf doesn't just affect only TWFers or THFers either, it affects everyone. Less DPS = more healer mana wasted, probably 2.5x as much as before because they have to heal THF Barbs, casters have to waste more mana because fights last longer, everyone in general will be unhappy because things take more time. More time = less room for things to be casual, less room for things to be casual = more casual players quitting, even if they hadn't already for serious nerfs to some of their characters. This move isn't only bad for Turbine's name as a game producing company, it's also a bad financial move.

The most laughable of all, they made a thread asking for feedback and simply stopped replying after the first few pages altogether. This has done nothing more but make it clear that they don't even care how the players, who are giving them the money they so desperately want, feel about the changes they make to their game. While that's to be expected in mainstream games like WoW, that is definitely not something Turbine has the room to do with DDO.

[ShortRanger]

Thanks Aesop,

So I will be reduced from a lite tachtical tank to a mediocre fighter with ranged attack.......

These changes will take any shine off my charcaters that they may have.

One sad ranger/dwarf

[Ollathir]

So any combat feedback for U5, since Lama is open? Much rather see feedback based on actual results. May even get the Devs to get back here since its their post.

[Inkblack]

Ink is that inside Lama?

No, just the regular servers.

[Aesop]

Thanks Aesop,

So I will be reduced from a lite tachtical tank to a mediocre fighter with ranged attack.......

These changes will take any shine off my charcaters that they may have.

One sad ranger/dwarf

Hang tight, these things have a way of working out.

pip pip chin up cheeri-o ;)

If things are actually bad and not just preceived as bad then something will be changed... maybe they'll up a rate or something or down some hp or whatnot...

Aesop

[HarveyMilk]

Ok just saw this chart

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%




Turns out that my 12 fighter/7 monk/1 rogue will lose out without STWF getting included.

I have other guildies in the same boat with monster builds. What a shame. Would be nice if each tier of kensai got a +10% to hit with offhand weapon to compensate. That would give more flexibility.

[Angelus_dead]

So any combat feedback for U5, since Lama is open? Much rather see feedback based on actual results. May even get the Devs to get back here since its their post.
I tried running the same quest on both versions with a TWF rogue, and the result was as expected. The 10% lower attack rate was noticeable, as if you had a 66% resistance to Haste. In addition there was the minor but detectable irritation that my offhand attack attempts became unreliable. But it's not as if I was unable to kill things I'd defeated previously.

One complication is there were some changes to quest obstacles without mention in the release notes, so we can't be 100% sure we're fighting the same monsters.

[IronClan]

It's a huge thread and people can't seem to stop asking the same redundant sometimes simplistic questions that have already been asked and answered so here's a summery:

italics are the common question or statement some are actual posts some generic
Dev responses in BOLD yellow
Any comment or opinion I add is in normal text

* FIX/UPGRADE the SERVERS instead of nerfing!!!111ONE1
We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

* You're trying to trick us by hiding a nerf in a lag fix
I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting.
Obviously they feel that TWF is overpowered a stance on it's face seems true but mostly due to the fact that most Melees benefit more from two weapons than one; due to effects, greensteel enchantments and things like double assassinate and double smite (which actually gets THF Paladins called gimp by some).

* why double strikes and why nerf TWF and fix lag at the same time
[we need to reduce] the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, [double strike] significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations Implicit: TWF and double strike are interrelated Double strike is necessary to replace speed boosts, specifically. But some balancing of TWF is needed or double strikes would be overpowered (and of course the earlier statement that they feel TWF holds "extreme dominance" over everything else.

* I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations
Some things are very light, performance-wise. "Chance to proc" is one of the lightest calculations available.

*So a year ago you guys introduce Dungeon Alert to get rid of lag, that evidentally didnt work at all.
Dungeon Alert was meant to control one particular source of lag. (Specifically, pathing and perception systems of large numbers of monsters in a small area, since that's an n^2 problem.) It was never expected to banish all of it. Likewise, these changes are not expected to banish all forms of lag, but should help some of them.

AND:
*if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away DA
Dungeon Alert actually does help by making it suboptimal to create situations where there are a large number of monsters in a small area. (Dungeons where it automatically triggers through no action of your own need to have their spawns changed.)

* Who cares if lag is reduced if mobs take 50% longer to kill, The sky is falling, DoooOOoooMMMMm etc.
Monsters would take 50% longer to kill only if the off-hand chance was reduced to zero, and a chance to attack under 100% was applied to the main hand as well. (As main hand attacks deal more damage than off-hand, with the exception of the monk.) According to Squelch's numbers TWF DPS will be lower by about 16-17%.

*So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing
We're attacking the problem from many directions.


I'll probably repost this every few pages as needed...

[xxScoobyDooxx]

[QUOTE=Alhaz1970;3008630]It's a huge thread and people can't seem to stop asking the same redundant sometimes simplistic questions that have already been asked and answered so here's a summery:

Very nice post summary... Thanks for the effort.

+1 rep

[Retrodark]

So, will this change actually fix the lag experienced in part 1, 4, 5 of Shroud, because this the only lag that seems to affect everyone?

[ShortRanger]

I just changed weapons sets while leveling up and my backstabbing axe is now on my off hand.

How will the changes affect sneak attacking when a backstabing weapon as in the off hand?

[testing1234]

Suprised at the miss chance, esp if you have GTWF, not suprised at the game feel. Warchanter by chance? Anything new combat wise for songs?

no change in bards, no new songs.
single new lvl1 spell 1d4 sonic to 5d4 max sonic damage and daze until hit by fort save casters get the sonic spell also.

[mjrepro]

So after trying out what they have done to the TWF on my monk on the test server, I am not too sad.

It is slower, that is for sure, and they need to address that issue. Give me back my speed on my monk is my first reaction, but this will also mean I can use WHATEVER stance I want, and not feel I have to stick to one particular stance.
Now I know you guys will say I could do that now, but not really, Windstance was so overpowered compared to the rest of the stances, that it was the only one it made since to use.

It is a bit slower I think, but not too noticeably so for the DPS'ing down a mob, and I think that if you changed back the Bauble to a Major Mnemonic, it would balance some things out.

Contrary to what everyone might be yelling, I am liking it so far, and want to say thank you guys for taking bold stabs at balancing some things out.

[Zaal]

just slow down the overall combat system and don't nerf anything.

if a hypothetical battle normally takes a minute, add 10% and have said battle take a minute, 6 seconds.

then maybe scale xp by say 5% to compensate for extra battle time.
They tried that once and the result was an agonizingly slow combat, much more so for lower level characters. I don't think they will slow down the attack animations again.

Thanks for responding... Not really suggesting a drop in speed for animation but instead the actual combat system - and if that means to slow the animation too; well, so be it.

Again, slowing down the combat speed and upping the xp should provide a relative balance.

Perhaps out of scope but in addition to a slow down in combat speed, we might also see a reduction in hit points... say, if combat is slowed by 10% , monster mp can also be dropped by 10%.

Also, I recall that animation speed drop and I think the biggest complaint back then was the visual aspect... things felt slower because they looked slower.

Been a few months since I played but if it still holds true, i recall that the animation was a tad "off" so really, a little more "off" shouldn't be to bad ;)

[Ollathir]

So far only two hits on the general feel of the combat feedback in Lamania.

Though a bit more here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252668 . Does anyone have anything positive to add? The positive feedback that I've seen so far seems to be masked, albeit interesting about guild housing updates.

[Necron7]

I have been playing in the test server for a bit, and my ranger is at least 20% slower dealing damage. This is causing me to take alot more damage making my toon way harder to solo. I was already taking alot of damage in groups now it just makes me want to delete the toon

AS for everyone saying that rangers have spells to even them out is making a bad joke. They have not tried to heal a 12 ranger with over 200hp using moderate heal. Just how many spell points do you think rangers have? I would rather now have the AC to prevent the damage from happening. Now I'm just stuck with a subpar fighter wannabe with light armor and low HP

I now regret even making this toon or my TWF fighter. The only melee choice now is the THF Barb; oh did I say "choice" silly me.

I do not wish to put any further effort into these toons if they are going to implement this nerf. I want a YES or a NO from the Devs.
If yes then I am deleting my toons, canceling my subscription and moving on to a new game.

[avery61]

I have been playing in the test server for a bit, and my ranger is at least 20% slower. This is causing me to take alot more damge making my toon way harder to solo. I was already taking alot of damage in groups now it just makes me want to delete the toon

AS for everyone saying that rangers have spells to even them out is making a bad joke. They have not tried to heal a 12 ranger with over 200hp using moderate heal. Just how many spell points do you think rangers have? I would rather now have the AC to prevent the damage from happening. Now I'm just stuck with a subpar fighter wannabe with light armor and low HP

I now regret even making this toon or my TWF fighter. The only melee choice now is the THF Barb; oh did I say "choice" silly me.

I do not wish to put any further effort into these toons if they are going to implement this nerf. I want a YES or a NO from the Devs.
If yes then I am deleting my toons, canceling my subscription and moving on to a new game.

Same. If the Ranger is gonna be nerfed I'm just gonna move on. Rangers just don't have the selection of spells and spell points to make up for losing TWF.

[Dim_Mak]

do you realized that you just agreed to 20% slower melee combat?i agreed on what he said about investing in our toons.
i don't want 20% slower melee and i don't want changes to TWF.
If so, like many other said I am canceling my sub and moving on.
I don't want that my gaming and relaxing turns into a **** frustration because someone whined to devs how the game is not balanced.
Cheers

[zealous]

According to Squelch's numbers TWF DPS will be lower by about 16-17%.

Wasn't those numbers for ranger and erroneously stating the effect of tempest as 10% when the actual benefit is ~8% due to haste stacking overhead and only counting double strike for main hand.

Fighters, Paladins:
Now: main 108%, off 108%
U5: main 110%, off 88%
Difference: <8% decrease

Rangers:
Now: main 108%, off 108%*5/4=135%
U5: main 105%, off 105%
Difference: ~14% decrease

Monks:
Same as fighters/paladins except 8% instead of <8% due to same damage on main and off hand.
Additionally, double strike will increase effect of specials, ToD and ki strikes.
e.g. ToD: gain 10% double strike + 80% off hand proc + 8% double strike off hand proc + off hand attack damage =>benefit increased by some 120%, this translates to a dps boost of ~10%
Difference: >2% increase for dark monks

Rest:
100/100->100/80
Difference: <10% decrease

THF:
Twitch more or less brought in line with standing attack

All with madstone boots: ~4.5%

[tasebro]

Wasn't those numbers for ranger and erroneously stating the effect of tempest as 10% when the actual benefit is ~8% due to haste stacking overhead and only counting double strike for main hand.

Fighters, Paladins:
Now: main 108%, off 108%
U5: main 110%, off 88%
Difference: <8% decrease

Rangers:
Now: main 108%, off 108%*5/4=135%
U5: main 105%, off 105%
Difference: ~14% decrease

Monks:
Same as fighters/paladins except 8% instead of <8% due to same damage on main and off hand.
Additionally, double strike will increase effect of specials, ToD and ki strikes.
e.g. ToD: gain 10% double strike + 80% off hand proc + 8% double strike off hand proc + off hand attack damage =>benefit increased by some 120%, this translates to a dps boost of ~10%
Difference: >2% increase for dark monks

Rest:
100/100->100/80
Difference: <10% decrease

THF:
Twitch more or less brought in line with standing attack

All with madstone boots: ~4.5%

Well and good for pure-class TWFers, what are the numbers for custom multi-class hybrid builds?
All multiclass TWFers are clearly going to take a very serious hit to DPS potential, effectively wiping out any useful pre-U5 build synergy (i.e. feat, and skill enhancements, and most importantly attack speed boosts).
Also, if DPS is gimped -10% to -15%, then that means fights will last ~111% to 118% longer than they now do, and so will consume proportionally more defensive resources spread over a longer time--the lighter classes like rangers, rogues, monks and especially multiclass hybrids that rely on those resources to stay in the fight will fall further and further behind the power curve over the longer fight times, since U5 will remove any chance of hitting with enough DPS advantage to put the mobs down before the heals run out, or haste-boosting TWF at the critical point to turn the tide they will be out of the fight before the fight is over.
Lacking the heavy AC/DR, lighter multiclass build hit points will run out long before the any TWF DPS advantage can reliably end the fight, and since TWF conveniently consumes feat/enhancement slots that could otherwise mitigate (or reverse) this situation, then it seems clear that U5 invalidates multiclass TWF.

Update 5 kills the two main synergy avenues that make multiclass DPS builds work: 1. dependable speed, and 2. the consistent landing of reliable hits enough to back that speed up and get results.

So what do we multiclass TWF players get in return out of this?

[jadenkorr]

I suggest that instead of making the offhand a chance to proc, a simple -x/-y damage to both hands, which will decrease as more feats are taken, for example, -4/-2 at the start, -2/-0 with GTWF, exact numbers up to the devs to decide.

This would reflect the weakness of the two weapon fighting style, which is that you cannot put the full power of both arms behind a single attack or block. As an objective is to decrease TWF dps, -x/-y is imo, a more palatable alternative to the currently proposed change. The devs could calculate the break even point where a -x/-y to damage will have the same decrease to damage as a 80% chance to offhand proc.

Why do I suggest this? Currently, attack bonus serves as a rough indicator of offensive weapon skill level, while AC serves as a rough indicator of defensive prowess. And as your character levels up, his base attack bonus increases, indicating an increase in combat experience, hence an increase in skill level.

A Level 20 character should not have a chance to miss on a CR1 Zombie. He will however, still suffer the same lack of power behind his blows regardless of whether he is hitting a CR1 Zombie or a CR20++ Pitfiend. Or to put it another way, a significantly more skilled character should be hitting his opponent. More skilled characters will create openings and take advantage of their opponents' loopholes in their defenses. A level 20 character will just demolish a CR1 Zombie, he should not miss at all, thats just silly.

Edit: On a sidenote, could the devs comment on whether they will reduce mob HP to offset the DPS nerfs please?

[Rasczak]

The speed of combat does not feel right. Especially considering that a lvl 10 standing next to me attacked at the same speed, it felt horrid :(

[zealous]

Well and good for pure-class TWFers, what are the numbers for custom multi-class hybrid builds?

They go under Rest:.



All multiclass TWFers are clearly going to take a very serious hit to DPS potential, effectively wiping out any useful pre-U5 build synergy (i.e. feat, and skill enhancements, and most importantly attack speed boosts).

No. Synergies are still there, dps potential is still high compared to other options.



Also, if DPS is gimped -10% to -15%, then that means fights will last ~111% to 118% longer than they now do, and so will consume proportionally more defensive resources spread over a longer time

If this is relevant, it would imply that you currently absolutely under no circumstances can complete quests without a party composed solely of twinked to the teeth max dps builds. Since that currently is far from true, it is more or less irrelevant.



--the lighter classes like rangers, rogues, monks and especially multiclass hybrids that rely on those resources to stay in the fight will fall further and further behind the power curve over the longer fight times

Conjecture. Additionally the classes you mention do have resources increasing survivability. They will still be where they currently are on the power curve since the power curve is only defined in relation to other alternative builds.



, since U5 will remove any chance of hitting with enough DPS advantage to put the mobs down before the heals run out, or haste-boosting TWF at the critical point to turn the tide they will be out of the fight before the fight is over.

Groundless speculation. There is no reasonable indication that this will happen.



Lacking the heavy AC/DR, lighter multiclass build hit points will run out long before the any TWF DPS advantage can reliably end the fight, and since TWF conveniently consumes feat/enhancement slots that could otherwise mitigate (or reverse) this situation, then it seems clear that U5 invalidates multiclass TWF.

Groundless speculation. There is no reasonable indication that this will happen.



Update 5 kills the two main synergy avenues that make multiclass DPS builds work: 1. dependable speed, and 2. the consistent landing of reliable hits enough to back that speed up and get results.

Those two avenues will remain, rebalanced but essentially the same.



So what do we multiclass TWF players get in return out of this?
A more balanced game =)

It all depends on if you view the glass as half full or as half empty. It doesn't change 2wf to being worse than e.g. nuking or 2hf, it's still better. Since it is kind of difficult to argue that it should be exactly x better than y, saying the change is bad just because it brings it lower than it currently is not a good argument against it.

Currently, bringing a S&B or a no twitch 2h into the group will generally decrease group efficacy. With the changes this will be lessened.

So you can view the change as rebalancing from high single target dps towards damage mitigation and AoE damage.

Simply put, it will make alternate group compositions more viable. You will still be able to just stack dps and heal through though, it will likely still be optimal.
...
Personally, I think that the capacity to heal is somewhat unbalancing and also trivializes much challenge. If something were done to healing, like e.g. granting diminishing returns or giving large increases to cooldowns, judging from the outrage at the slight rebalance of 2wf, the forums would implode.

It wouldn't break the game if done right, it might very likely make things more challenging and thereby fun.

[SquelchHU]

No, it would break the game.

When you make every encounter all about auto attacking the huge pile of HP and being mass healed through it than changing any component therein breaks the whole encounter.

Less damage means more heals which means more resources burned.
Less effective heals means more heals which means more resources burned.
Slower heals means more deaths which means less damage.

In a way it is fortunate encounters are not more dynamic, as the lag that will exist before and after nerfdate 5 would prevent any form of dynamic reactions anyways. However for this same reason this one basic formula becomes the crux of everything. The cornerstone of content if you will.

Doesn't look like they're retracting nerfdate 5 either. Pity, once they got past the silly level 5 quest thing it actually seemed to have some potential... now I'd much rather the entire thing just get deleted and they try again next time than have the whole game gimped out from under me.

But that won't happen either, so maybe in about 3 years they'll get a clue and fix it back so I can renew my sub and continue playing.

[thomassmith2]

I’m sorry if this has been said before but I want to add my voice to those others who are concerned that this change is unnecessarily complicated. As I understand it the goal is to reduce the number of checks, in particular proximity checks, caused by two game mechanics (Two Weapon Fighting and Effects that increase attack speed such as monk air stance, the fighter capstone, and paladin zeal) so as to reduce lag.

I cannot see why the off hand attacks (but not necessarily the animation) for the two weapon fighting feats can’t occur simultaneously with their associated primary hand attack (the first, second and thirds attacks for the TWF, improved TWF and greater TWF feats respectively). If the target is close enough to be hit by the primary hand attack it is close enough to be hit by the off hand so there is no need for a proximity check for the off hand attack. This removes the need to change the mechanics of the TWF feats and maintains some consistency with the Pen and paper version of D&D that DDO is based on.

I also cannot see why the second problem of effects that increase attack speed needs a whole new mechanic – the “double strike”. The result of each of these effects is to increase damage output. Would it not be simpler to replace some of these effects with a bonus to damage e.g. replace the Fighter Capstone with a bonus to damage with all weapons, make zeal grant a bonus to damage etc.

[r3dl4nce]

Less damage means more heals which means more resources burned.which means more shop SP potions...

[DToNE]

A loss in attack speed will be traumatic for most player players in the game for the price of reducing lag issues. What this does is make hard quests even harder and make speed specialization seem even less special. While the melee will feel this, the healers will feel this as well as prolonged combat requires more SP, making casters more attractive than before. This promotes the growth of casters, but significantly reduces the amount of players.

So yes, adjusting the attack speed will reduce the lag traumatically not by calculations alone, but from players leaving the game as well. This will reduce the amount of quests that can be done.

The lag issue seems to be the amount of information that flows into the server and responds back to the players. Absurd amount of calculations flowing into the server and has to be reproduced to all players that need to see the calculation. While the attack speed change would apply some lag fix, similar effects can be done by adding slower but more effective weapons for a boss or for portal beating. Examples of this would be like the meteors in the Abbot Raid: where the meteors can be used to cause some hesitation to the Abbot.

Not only will this reduce the amount of calculations needed, but adds more "role" for the sake of role playing. More Examples would be:

Shroud - Portal Disrupting throwing item; potentially no weapon proficiency, but portals don't have AC anyways.
Vision of Destruction - Demon Slaying Arrows; give more reason to do damage for ranged class which will use much less calculations anyway.


Basically, by promoting ranged combat by increasing the attack power, you also fix some lag issues and increase the amount of people willing to use ranged weapons. Which promotes that which needs some attention and prevents player dissatisfaction. I don't believe anyone will be unhappy about a lag fix and better possibilities for ranged combat.

[Bolo_Grubb]

So any combat feedback for U5, since Lama is open? Much rather see feedback based on actual results. May even get the Devs to get back here since its their post.

The biggest problem with testing the changes on Lama, is that Lama never has the same server load as the live servers. There simply is never the large number of people on lama as there is on Sarlona (the live server I play on) or any of the other live servers. As this is also a major factor of the lag. Isn't it?

I know when I do a raid at 10am I get way less lag and way less DPS lag then I do at 10pm.

[Theolin]

now I know why the nerfed haste a while back .....

[tasebro]

They go under Rest:.


No. Synergies are still there, dps potential is still high compared to other options.
...irrelevant...[snip]
...Conjecture....[snip]
...Groundless speculation...[snip]
...rebalanced but essentially the same...[snip]
...A more balanced game =)...[snip]

...So you can view the change as rebalancing from high single target dps towards damage mitigation and AoE damage.
...
...
Personally, I think that the capacity to heal is somewhat unbalancing and also trivializes much challenge. If something were done to healing, like e.g. granting diminishing returns or giving large increases to cooldowns, judging from the outrage at the slight rebalance of 2wf, the forums would implode.

It wouldn't break the game if done right, it might very likely make things more challenging and thereby fun.

Well, zealous, here is some more irrelevant conjecture for you to dismiss:

Specifically, my current main multiclass DPS toon can self-heal, as well as effectively tank AND deal adequate TWF DPS resulting from qualifying for warforged, kensei (unarmed) with monk sauce and a side of UMD (rogue).
Come nerfdate 5 (good one squelch) I am going to loose all the nice stacked speed boosts I now have access to (arrived at via multi-class build "speed" synergies, which ARE going away), and therefore a good chunk of practical DPS output potential (looks to me to be about 30-35% drop), therefore turning what is an effective sub-optimal "speed" build, into just another broken liability, therefore the bulk of that toons' current usefulness TO ME is going to vanish.

Furthermore, your dismissals miss the key point, I PAID for that specific utility on THAT toon, not for your sense of 'game balance', which is frankly neither needed, nor wanted
(...fact being I don't give a flip about 'game balance'; if i did, I would not invest my time building such toons, I would just play WoW now wouldn't I?).
What I do want is the return on the resouces I invested in my toon--which I am currently getting--no more, no less. Since I am loosing all my stacked speed boosts, taking a significant hit on my DPS output with nothing to compensate that loss then that is not "game balance", its just a nerf that invalidates what is currently a viable build.

[Ollathir]

The biggest problem with testing the changes on Lama, is that Lama never has the same server load as the live servers. There simply is never the large number of people on lama as there is on Sarlona (the live server I play on) or any of the other live servers. As this is also a major factor of the lag. Isn't it?

I know when I do a raid at 10am I get way less lag and way less DPS lag then I do at 10pm.

Bolo I seriously doubt lag will be effected with the changes underway. If it is, I seriously doubt a large portion of player base will raise their hands in the air and rejoice. Oddly enough there are a great many players that manage to complete these quests with hvy lag with little resources and dificulty.
What Im looking for is people that can run their TWH, THF pure or MC builds on Lamania to post feedback, in the Combat feedback forum for update 5, showing one of two things:

Validate what Eladrin showed us by saying the changes to this, are this, and it does balance the game out for the better...or

Show the changes do this and this and result in this which may not be good for the game. Please look to another way to balance TWF because...

[Necron7]

Bolo I seriously doubt lag will be effected with the changes underway. If it is, I seriously doubt a large portion of player base will raise their hands in the air and rejoice. Oddly enough there are a great many players that manage to complete these quests with hvy lag with little resources and dificulty.
What Im looking for is people that can run their TWH, THF pure or MC builds on Lamania to post feedback, in the Combat feedback forum for update 5, showing one of two things:

Validate what Eladrin showed us by saying the changes to this, are this, and it does balance the game out for the better...or

Show the changes do this and this and result in this which may not be good for the game. Please look to another way to balance TWF because...

What your saying here is that this was never about lag issues, but Eladrin posted that this was to solve the lag issues.
"One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them."

So your telling us Eldarin is changing the game dynamics based on a LIE!?!?

If this is the case then you people are no longer deserving of my money.

[Ollathir]

/snip.

Nah, he didnt lie bud.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues

The direct effect of changing the phisics calc is the part of the DPS fix. This could be done without reducing the effectiveness of TWF. The changes are geared toward trying to level the playing field as far as melee is concerned.

[bringjoy]

Change will always mean unhappy people. Nerfing power will of course bring about the largest cries from the population -- even when such changes are addressing another thing we are constantly crying about...raid Laaaaaggg.

I am not fond of unnecessary nerfing. Nor am i fond of unnecessary lag. If these changes can bring about a significant reduction in lag issues, then I wish the devs luck in doing so -- even over the screams of "I'm leaving!! How can you do this to my uber fighter?!!??"

Likewise, if melee fighters experience some balancing issues, I am ready to accept that. The point about deconstructing greensteel and myriad other issues are good to bring up. And I imagine we vets as a whole, are much more upset with these proposed lag solutions than new folks who probably find the game *too* fast anyhow;)

[Necron7]

Nah, he didnt lie bud.


The direct effect of changing the phisics calc is the part of the DPS fix. This could be done without reducing the effectiveness of TWF. The changes are geared toward trying to level the playing field as far as melee is concerned.

If this was just about nerfing TWF to "level" the field then that is what Eladrin should have said. As it is he is linking TWF DPS to lag and that is deceiving people into thinking just that.

And as far as deconstructing GS, if the DEVS allow this then they will have to admit that this nerf trashed all high level TWF builds.

As far as my money is concerned you just lost it "bud".

[REALb0r3d]

Way to bring in your little lapdog Ollathir. If you cant say this to me yourself then dont bring in others or a different account to say it for you.

Ollathir your turning this game into what you are a JOKE..

So sad... I can not reg rep since I do not have enough rep.
-1 for your silliness.

[Ollathir]

Way to bring in your little lapdog Ollathir. If you cant say this to me yourself then dont bring in others or a different account to say it for you.

Ollathir your turning this game into what you are a JOKE..

If your under the impression Im blindly for the changes, read back a bit. If you still cant understand, leave the game and either finish school or go back.

[tasebro]

Sorry, I dont know who you are O, but...


...The direct effect of changing the phisics calc is the part of the DPS fix....
Fine.
So go ahead and alter the physics to accomodate, but dont nerf our DPS or TWF to eliminate viable "speed" builds.


...This could be done without reducing the effectiveness of TWF.....

Good. That sounds like a swell idea to me. Furthermore dont mess with my cross-class speed boosts either....


...The changes are geared toward trying to level the playing field as far as melee is concerned......

Noted.
It's a bad idea, so don't do it.
It's a bad idea because when anything effective is systematically, arbirarily nerfed, then that gives me ("Valued Customer") a clear disincentive to risk investing anything worthwhile (i.e: $$$, time) into any toon build, since we all now know the intent will be to normalize positive results we can achieve by nerfing those results the very next update.
Knowing that, then I ("Valued Customer") now have no reason to waste any more of my money on building custom sub-optimal toons, since the best possible reward is mediocrity, and I am not interested in funding mediocrity.

DnD is NOT about "trying to level the playing field", it IS about getting the most you can with what you have to work with.
Edgy "power builds" are part of that fundamental, and when you normalize that into oblivion, you get DnD v4.0, which is to say a different incarnation of WoW. No thanks.
If DDO is so weakly built that it cannot work with edgy power builds, then that needs to be made clear up front, and not after the fact by pulling the rug out from under those who have the wherewithal to achieve effective build results with our resources.

[Necron7]

If your under the impression Im blindly for the changes, read back a bit. If you still cant understand, leave the game and either finish school or go back.

I have played on the test server; found that the TWF nerf to be just that a nerf, and posted my feedback. Now your telling us that this nerf has little to do with TWF DPS lag, but is actually to "level" the playing field. You are right I dont understand why Eladrin linked the lag to TWF DPS, so could you please clarify what this nerf is supposed to be solving?

With all these people wanting to deconstruct their GS should tell you that no one wants to play their TWF builds if this goes through.

And yes I am leaving the game :), but I'm a little lost as to why I need or should go back to school?

[ncarter555]

WoW....I read the first and last page to get a jist. Not sure I am happy about the twf change. However, after having many things change many times in my MMORPG career I am not suprised.

As a team player I will say this. As long as my team that takes 10 minutes to drop Arratreikos now, still takes 10 minutes to drop him after the patch, then I'm ok. If this is by strengthening other classes or decreasing the BOSS stats/hp etc, I don't care. What I don't want to see is the 10 minute fight to turn into 15 because of less overall dps.

[Anthem]

Just wanted to go on the record as in favour. My conditional approval is based only on my observation that the min/maxing for TWF has generated a lot of one build type, and had reduced the variety of builds considered by many as viable.

I do not like the way the news was delivered so closely worded with a lag fix that it was practically camouflaged as one.

[AbsynthMinded]

WoW....I read the first and last page to get a jist. Not sure I am happy about the twf change. However, after having many things change many times in my MMORPG career I am not suprised.

As a team player I will say this. As long as my team that takes 10 minutes to drop Arratreikos now, still takes 10 minutes to drop him after the patch, then I'm ok. If this is by strengthening other classes or decreasing the BOSS stats/hp etc, I don't care. What I don't want to see is the 10 minute fight to turn into 15 because of less overall dps.

Nothing of what they are addressing is going to prevent the lag from returning later.. Nothing that was said has given me any confidence. Even though our opinions and feedback were asked for it does not amount to much. The forums are a microcosm and not truly representative of the player majority, just the vocal minority.

[Ollathir]

Alright this is a basic summary


It's a huge thread and people can't seem to stop asking the same redundant sometimes simplistic questions that have already been asked and answered so here's a summery:

italics are the common question or statement some are actual posts some generic
Dev responses in BOLD yellow
Any comment or opinion I add is in normal text

* FIX/UPGRADE the SERVERS instead of nerfing!!!111ONE1
We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

* You're trying to trick us by hiding a nerf in a lag fix
I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting.
Obviously they feel that TWF is overpowered a stance on it's face seems true but mostly due to the fact that most Melees benefit more from two weapons than one; due to effects, greensteel enchantments and things like double assassinate and double smite (which actually gets THF Paladins called gimp by some).

* why double strikes and why nerf TWF and fix lag at the same time
[we need to reduce] the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, [double strike] significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations Implicit: TWF and double strike are interrelated Double strike is necessary to replace speed boosts, specifically. But some balancing of TWF is needed or double strikes would be overpowered (and of course the earlier statement that they feel TWF holds "extreme dominance" over everything else.

* I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations
Some things are very light, performance-wise. "Chance to proc" is one of the lightest calculations available.

*So a year ago you guys introduce Dungeon Alert to get rid of lag, that evidentally didnt work at all.
Dungeon Alert was meant to control one particular source of lag. (Specifically, pathing and perception systems of large numbers of monsters in a small area, since that's an n^2 problem.) It was never expected to banish all of it. Likewise, these changes are not expected to banish all forms of lag, but should help some of them.

AND:
*if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away DA
Dungeon Alert actually does help by making it suboptimal to create situations where there are a large number of monsters in a small area. (Dungeons where it automatically triggers through no action of your own need to have their spawns changed.)

* Who cares if lag is reduced if mobs take 50% longer to kill, The sky is falling, DoooOOoooMMMMm etc.
Monsters would take 50% longer to kill only if the off-hand chance was reduced to zero, and a chance to attack under 100% was applied to the main hand as well. (As main hand attacks deal more damage than off-hand, with the exception of the monk.) According to Squelch's numbers TWF DPS will be lower by about 16-17%.

*So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing
We're attacking the problem from many directions.


I'll probably repost this every few pages as needed...


My personal opinion, removing speed calcs changes the game feel. Ive gotten used to the lag and if it can be addressed somewhere else I'm all for it. Thats my own personal opinion based on no facts simply because I cant log into lamania.
TWF has its place, so does S&B and THF, I dont see the need to scale down but it looks like its getting changed no matter what. Though I disagree with what the changes are, thats my own personal opinion based on no facts simply because I cant log into lamania.

So...

The post is for Combat feedback, created by Eladrin Im assuming to get feedback. Though I argued quite a bit to the intuitive, that no longer matters. What does matter is getting reliable feedback into the post that can explain why the changes are fine or why they may not be and what they effect. You dont see a title by my name saying "Dev", and I'd like to see them come back to their post but doubt they will if theres nothing valid to point out other than "I'm ****ed off".

[Necron7]

This will be my last post.

It is my belief that the DEVS intended to deceive the players to begin with. I believe that this has all been a pony show to a nerf they were going force on us anyways.

Thanks for finding this Ollathir it answers some of our questions.

With that said I cannot give my money to people who think so little of their customer base that they feel they must mislead them.

Thanks and Goodbye.

[tasebro]

...It is my belief that the DEVS intended to deceive the players to begin with. I believe that this has all been a pony show to a nerf they were going force on us anyways.

Thanks for finding this Ollathir it answers some of our questions.

With that said I cannot give my money to people who think so little of their customer base that they feel they must mislead them....

Perhaps. But frankly I don't see the "deception" here, merely a warning to players as to bad news coming down the pipe. Still better than not telling us at all tho.

I do however see some limited use of "lag solution" as a convenient justification for nerfdate 5 lameness. but what choice to the devs have at this point? It is going to happen sooner rather than later, and damage control measures are in place (i.e.: ignore it maybe the players will shut up after a while).

I don't know but I suspect that when Turbine/DDo was bought out, there was a not-unexpected shift in management to quickly: 1. reduce expenditures and 2. increase profits (to make the "new acquisition" pay for itself, with any surplus going into the new owners pocket); and part of that was a shift moving the cream of the dev staff over to service the new upcoming harry-potter-online game, and "streamlining" what was left of DDO resources to cruise for a while on autopilot (i.e.: on the cheap)--part of that autopilot streamlining was applying expedient fixes to the top three or four known outstanding problem areas to reduce costs and increase short-term "performance" overall via load reduction-- so the executive decision was made, and the task at hand was to nerf speed boosts in particular, and melee DPS in general to solve the biggest offenders (the nail that sticks up gets the pounding). Note that character transfers between live servers also got the axe here--as it was another "waste of resources".

I suspect the devs--or what is left of them after being picked over to staff harry potter--really do care about the game, and are doing the best they can with what they have and the orders they are under from the new owner and the execs.
So now the devs are stuck, they no doubt want to do what they can to help us (hence the warnings to us of what is coming), and they know very well that nerfdate 5 is a bad idea that will have serious negative consequences, but the alternatives are likely much worse, and orders are orders, so they gotta do what the execs say. The execs also know its a bad idea that will trash many players' builds--they just don't care because they will get their bonuses regardless of what happens (worst case, they just liquidate, sell out to blizzardinc, grab the signing bonuses and run off to CA maybe???). The players clearly know its a bad idea, but we are at the mercy of the new ownership/execs, so the only choices we have are: 1. stop paying them for our DDo accounts, or 2. suck it up and live with being screwed over, and keep paying....so they can screw us over yet again come nerfdate 6....

This is what I suspect--I do not know but the suspicion is reasonable.
If this is true, the devs obviously cannot speak about this, since that would be insubordinate.
The execs are not going to take responsibility either, since they are insulated and above any fallout.

I am a pay-as-you-go player ("Valued Customer") since it went f2p--I deliberately chose to NEVER go subscription v.i.p. because I did not want to be bound by that if things went sour (as they now have)--but I have invested a couple hundred bucks in turbine points to buy "long term" content and '"speed" build' upgrades for the long haul (now nerfed to uselessness), and my grievance with nerfdate 5 is that clearly part of the money I sent turbine that was meant to fund my interests is now riding on some Turbine executives hip, instead of funding the specific resources I bought, and I am being effectively screwed out of my current content interface (i.e. my custom builds), not to mention losing ALL sense of "ownership" of said toons and the build choices allocated therein. I am not alone in this either, and that is the downside of buying content from Turbine, since they can (and obviously will) alter it at any time it suits them to do so, even if it categorically trashes players investments in their builds.
So here I am in stuck in limbo, knowing that with nerfdate 5 my main toon--and almost all of my alts--will soon be rendered severely hampered in their intended purpose as my only interface with the content I bought (various DPS "speed" builds), and on top of that, we now have clear indications that marginalization of all power builds is the "new mandate", and since power builds is what I am currently interested in, I now have no motivation to work on any alts since they are all going to be nerfed in the name of "game balance".
I will have to start over from scratch AGAIN since the carrot is now smaller, and on a longer stick.
I do want to play my toons that I have invested so much time and money into tweaking to be the way I built them to be, but I know there is no point since any achievement that resembles effectiveness will likely be nerfed come updates 5/6, so I now have severe reservations about trusting turbine to do-the-right-thing when the powers that be have demonstrated the intention to employ deleterious/lame solutions, then take the money and run.

[mjrepro]

Perhaps. But frankly I don't see the "deception" here, merely a warning to players as to bad news coming down the pipe. Still better than not telling us at all tho.

I do however see some limited use of "lag solution" as a convenient justification for nerfdate 5 lameness. but what choice to the devs have at this point? It is going to happen sooner rather than later, and damage control measures are in place (i.e.: ignore it maybe the players will shut up after a while).

I don't know but I suspect that when Turbine/DDo was bought out, there was a not-unexpected shift in management to quickly: 1. reduce expenditures and 2. increase profits (to make the "new acquisition" pay for itself, with any surplus going into the new owners pocket); and part of that was a shift moving the cream of the dev staff over to service the new upcoming harry-potter-online game, and "streamlining" what was left of DDO resources to cruise for a while on autopilot (i.e.: on the cheap)--part of that autopilot streamlining was applying expedient fixes to the top three or four known outstanding problem areas to reduce costs and increase short-term "performance" overall via load reduction-- so the executive decision was made, and the task at hand was to nerf speed boosts in particular, and melee DPS in general to solve the biggest offenders (the nail that sticks up gets the pounding). Note that character transfers between live servers also got the axe here--as it was another "waste of resources".

I suspect the devs--or what is left of them after being picked over to staff harry potter--really do care about the game, and are doing the best they can with what they have and the orders they are under from the new owner and the execs.
So now the devs are stuck, they no doubt want to do what they can to help us (hence the warnings to us of what is coming), and they know very well that nerfdate 5 is a bad idea that will have serious negative consequences, but the alternatives are likely much worse, and orders are orders, so they gotta do what the execs say. The execs also know its a bad idea that will trash many players' builds--they just don't care because they will get their bonuses regardless of what happens (worst case, they just liquidate, sell out to blizzardinc, grab the signing bonuses and run off to CA maybe???). The players clearly know its a bad idea, but we are at the mercy of the new ownership/execs, so the only choices we have are: 1. stop paying them for our DDo accounts, or 2. suck it up and live with being screwed over, and keep paying....so they can screw us over yet again come nerfdate 6....

This is what I suspect--I do not know but the suspicion is reasonable.
If this is true, the devs obviously cannot speak about this, since that would be insubordinate.
The execs are not going to take responsibility either, since they are insulated and above any fallout.

I am a pay-as-you-go player ("Valued Customer") since it went f2p--I deliberately chose to NEVER go subscription v.i.p. because I did not want to be bound by that if things went sour (as they now have)--but I have invested a couple hundred bucks in turbine points to buy "long term" content and '"speed" build' upgrades for the long haul (now nerfed to uselessness), and my grievance with nerfdate 5 is that clearly part of the money I sent turbine that was meant to fund my interests is now riding on some Turbine executives hip, instead of funding the specific resources I bought, and I am being effectively screwed out of my current content interface (i.e. my custom builds), not to mention losing ALL sense of "ownership" of said toons and the build choices allocated therein. I am not alone in this either, and that is the downside of buying content from Turbine, since they can (and obviously will) alter it at any time it suits them to do so, even if it categorically trashes players investments in their builds.
So here I am in stuck in limbo, knowing that with nerfdate 5 my main toon--and almost all of my alts--will soon be rendered severely hampered in their intended purpose as my only interface with the content I bought (various DPS "speed" builds), and on top of that, we now have clear indications that marginalization of all power builds is the "new mandate", and since power builds is what I am currently interested in, I now have no motivation to work on any alts since they are all going to be nerfed in the name of "game balance".
I will have to start over from scratch AGAIN since the carrot is now smaller, and on a longer stick.
I do want to play my toons that I have invested so much time and money into tweaking to be the way I built them to be, but I know there is no point since any achievement that resembles effectiveness will likely be nerfed come updates 5/6, so I now have severe reservations about trusting turbine to do-the-right-thing when the powers that be have demonstrated the intention to employ deleterious/lame solutions, then take the money and run.

Just wow, talk about some QQ. I remember when playing on WoW (yeah might seem like childs play but it is the most popular MMO with the largest fan base) and they nerfed us Warlocks. Yeah a lot of us screamed, but it did not break the game. This again will not break the game. It is a little slower, but again you are all choosing to kill the child before he is even born. What if new parents thought like you, ( Like OMG! You mean I CAN'T stay out and drink all night with my friends?)

I am a fan of choices in this game. The choice to do TWF or THF. The choice to choose my stances on my monk. The choice to be a melee cleric or a healing cleric (just warn me when you join my parties if you are not a healer). This nerf will put some of the choice back into the game for some, because before this, to do anything meaningful you had to pick 1 route and go down it with minor deviance (I can't wait to drop windstance). Just like addiction, the ones that are most affected by it, would never see that their system is overpowered until after they are taken off it by force. Nerfing is not bad it is meant to bring more balane.

So instead of saying this is a terrible idea, suck it up and deal. Start telling the dev's what you think it should be changed to instead, because they have already changed things around since the start of the thread, so why not offer suggestions instead of just blindly saying the sky is falling and you have to stop it.

My thought is just to bring off hand procs up by 10% on the base so 1 feat nets you 50% and all three 90%. I think the sound of 90% and the actual happening is much nicer then. But that is me, a TWF junky.

[Visty]

i wonder how many of those *****ing that twf is dead now havent read the thread where its proven that twf still rules everything

[crschoen]

Here is a crazy idea. If the true goal is to reduce lag, instead of nerfing DPS players, why not use more creative energy on end-game content? It seems like the Standard Operating Procedure for creating end game monsters is to create a DPS situation. Let’s take epic dungeons for example. What does the SOP say for creating an epic monster?

Make monster immune to vorpals, stat damagers, paralyzers, etc.


Make monster immune to debuff or crowd control spells


Give monster a million hit points

This SOP steers players towards focusing on DPS. So to kill an epic monster the only strategy is to maximize DPS by using firewalls and two-weapon fighting. I used epic monsters as an example but the same is true for the Shroud raid.

So now you’re saying, “High DPS is causing lag, so we will reduce the ability to achieve high DPS.”

Why not look at the other side of the coin which is, “Why does our end game SOP focus on requiring high DPS to win?”

[AbsynthMinded]

Just wow, talk about some QQ. I remember when playing on WoW (yeah might seem like childs play but it is the most popular MMO with the largest fan base) and they nerfed us Warlocks. Yeah a lot of us screamed, but it did not break the game. This again will not break the game. It is a little slower, but again you are all choosing to kill the child before he is even born. What if new parents thought like you, ( Like OMG! You mean I CAN'T stay out and drink all night with my friends?)

I am a fan of choices in this game. The choice to do TWF or THF. The choice to choose my stances on my monk. The choice to be a melee cleric or a healing cleric (just warn me when you join my parties if you are not a healer). This nerf will put some of the choice back into the game for some, because before this, to do anything meaningful you had to pick 1 route and go down it with minor deviance (I can't wait to drop windstance). Just like addiction, the ones that are most affected by it, would never see that their system is overpowered until after they are taken off it by force. Nerfing is not bad it is meant to bring more balane.

So instead of saying this is a terrible idea, suck it up and deal. Start telling the dev's what you think it should be changed to instead, because they have already changed things around since the start of the thread, so why not offer suggestions instead of just blindly saying the sky is falling and you have to stop it.

My thought is just to bring off hand procs up by 10% on the base so 1 feat nets you 50% and all three 90%. I think the sound of 90% and the actual happening is much nicer then. But that is me, a TWF junky.

I would only point out that this 'change' is being cloaked by the 'emergency' of their code systems not keeping pace with their available hardware. It's the number of raids going on at once and the proc's and damage rolls putting too much strain on the systems. The guesstimated end result by this change, which is a severe deviation from the base D20 systems and feedback, will be to reduce strain on the hardware, and thus reduce overall DPS Lag. However, with more and more added content and players reaching 20, this lag is guaranteed to return and if they are not planning for a massive hardware upgrade to all new shiny stuff for all the realms we will reach this point again... soon.. all the tweaks on our base systems which will little by little nudge us away from anything we know now, are only buying time to avoid spending the big money..

or I could be totally wrong and the changes will do everything they say and keep lag down forever yet not appear like a lobotomy of the system we love... :confused:

However if we had the best hamsters and wheels, the same could be said that over time we will be here again.. Far be it from me to presume the right business decision. I know in practical terms its cheaper to buy time with code than hardware. It is sentimentality which I believe drives the resistant, but reasonably so. The translation of tabletop to video game is a wonder, and we who are not kidding ourselves know that the numbers and data feedback we get is a paltry representation of the massive number crunching going on which if were played out on tabletop would take a month of Sundays just to pass a room or two of real encounters.

I also would hope the DEVs are paying attention and start going over all the raid encounters and taking readings for how they might also be changed to reflect this new balance.

[Gnash]

From what I am gathering on the new mechanics, with the physics check only happening on the main hand, would a kill strike on first swing null the proc and double attack with the target gone?

The off hand wouldn't have a target since the physics was done on the first swing the proc wouldn't have a target?

Does the double attack have its own new physics check and is there a proc attached to it?

[Aspenor]

i wonder how many of those *****ing that twf is dead now havent read the thread where its proven that twf still rules everything

probably a lot of them. oh, and quoted for emphasis

[cracken999]

Sorry for some crappy english, its early and im a lil bit upset reading all these changes after 3 weeks being off DDO.

Well i agree with the lag problem and that its reasons are in the mechanics of the fast hits in a short time. So basically to slow the attacks down and make them more powerful therefore sounds pretty intelligent.

Nontheless i got major doubts about the offhand-proccs. Atm im on my 3rd life and going for a 18 paladin kotc III 2 rogue build, pure dps, TWF. I will have Zeal, so i'll have a chance to get 1 doublestrike out of 10 mainhandattacks. Got that. But after thinking bout it i feel like i am making a little gimp.

So calculating my attacks that means before update 5 i have 8 100% (not talking bout to-hit) attacks in a chain. (with GTWF Main Off / Main Off / Main Off / Main Off). So after 5 chains i'll have attacked 40 times for sure. If the to-hit is high enough 38 of these 40 attacks will succeed while two will be a 1 and fail. Lets say 1 fail is main, 1 is off.

For easy calculations the dmg of the main is 10, off is 5. So its a 190 dmg mainhand, 95 Dmg offhand, means 285 over the whole chain.

After Update 5, correct me if im wrong, ill have 22 attacks on my main, 2 of these are doublestrikes duo Zeal, and 55% chance of my offhand attack to procc, which means it will be 11 out of 20. And again, 2 misses.

According to the last calculation, again the dps:

21 main x 10 dmg = 210 dmg.
10 off x 5 dmg = 50 dmg.
overall: 260.

so we are missing 25 dmg, means almost a loss of 10% dps. not including missing smites for a failed offhand attack and the mostly almost equal dmg of main/offhand. Maybe a bit noobish calculation but thats it how i understand the changes. And im feeling upset when im thinking about my dps-toon that will be a total nerd when i finally capped her...cause she will barely hit every 2nd time attacking with her offhand...as a double TR...with a greensteel tier III khopesh in that offhand that costed me lots of time to make....

Am i getting it totally wrong or are u nerfing the melee attacks, especially the TWF non-ranger-classes and strengthening the AAs with that even more? Is there any nerf of the raidboss-hp so it won't take us 10% longer (and maybe 10% more store-potts....) to get em down?

[knightgf]

Nerfing is not bad it is meant to bring more balance.



Depends on the situation.



So instead of saying this is a terrible idea, suck it up and deal. Start telling the dev's what you think it should be changed to instead, because they have already changed things around since the start of the thread, so why not offer suggestions instead of just blindly saying the sky is falling and you have to stop it.


So...you mean to tell me that someone who is clearly opposed to this update should give suggestions to improve it instead of standing next to their opposition and defending their viewpoint?

What a odd group of people...

I really don't know if update 5 is worth it...I really don't. Yeah, its nice to have guild airships and new guild features and fixes and stuff, but this...I don't know. A lot of players are upset, as you can see in this thread.

[Aspenor]

Depends on the situation.



So...you mean to tell me that someone who is clearly opposed to this update should give suggestions to improve it instead of standing next to their opposition and defending their viewpoint?

What a odd group of people...

I really don't know if update 5 is worth it...I really don't. Yeah, its nice to have guild airships and new guild features and fixes and stuff, but this...I don't know. A lot of players are upset, as you can see in this thread.

Just displaying how upset you are without giving suggestions for improvement will result in your sentiments being ignored. It's abundantly clear that these things are here to stay, and no amount of whining will change that.

[tasebro]

Just wow, talk about some QQ...It is a little slower...Nerfing is not bad it is meant to bring more balane....suck it up and deal.

Thing is that your "a little slower" nerf intentionally kills the viability of multi class speed builds that rely on every available speed advantage to be viable (but still decidedly sub-optimal). So speed builds are going to lose the bulk of useful DPS and have nothing to show for the player investment put into carefully constructing now-invalidated toons. I remind you that speed builds only come at great opportunity cost to build, to achieve a workable, competitive edge that is now thoroughly blunted.
I am not interested in funding that particular mediocrity; and I am now understandably reluctant to invest MORE resources into another custom build only to see it nerfed too--and for the same lame (non)reasons speed builds are being nerfed now.
This U5 nerf of TWF in general and speed builds in particular is antithetical to a fundamental principle in DnD, so its NOT "balance"--what it is, is an arbitrary flub that happens to be the most convenient, cheap way to divert resources around some bad code that would be unpleasantly expensive to repair. The real problem here is NOT speed builds, its the bad code issues execs have clearly elected not to repair in favor of a cheaper band-aid solution.



Start telling the dev's...[snip blah blah blah]


The money I have spent on my speed builds speaks louder than your useless admonishment/chastisement to presume to tell the devs that which they already know--at least I have the integrity to back up my interests with my cash purchases...and also not to reward negative performance with even MORE positive reward, and to make sure the word gets out.


Just displaying how upset you are without giving suggestions for improvement will result in your sentiments being ignored. It's abundantly clear that these things are here to stay, and no amount of whining will change that.
How fortunate are the ignorant, for ignorance truly is bliss...and as a dog to his vomit, so returns a fool to his folly.

When a DnD GM repeatedly pulls the rug out from under the very talent he is supposedly trying to attract, that talent will find something else to do with their time (and money).

[Inkblack]

From what I am gathering on the new mechanics, with the physics check only happening on the main hand, would a kill strike on first swing null the proc and double attack with the target gone?

The off hand wouldn't have a target since the physics was done on the first swing the proc wouldn't have a target?

Does the double attack have its own new physics check and is there a proc attached to it?

I think that was talked about somewhere in this thread, but of course it is buried in all of the replies. Basically the physics check finds all available targets, so the second hand attack would just move to the next legitimate target. Sorry I can't provide a link 'cause I'm lazy.

[Bengalih]

This will be my last post.

It is my belief that the DEVS intended to deceive the players to begin with. I believe that this has all been a pony show to a nerf they were going force on us anyways.

Thanks for finding this Ollathir it answers some of our questions.

With that said I cannot give my money to people who think so little of their customer base that they feel they must mislead them.

Thanks and Goodbye.

While I will not end my posting, or my playing over these fixes, I must say I agree with Necron.

/rant on

I work in IT, have worked with very intensive database application doing many many computations/second, and I absolutely don't believe that these lag issues exist due to the twf computations that are currently being used. If this is truly the issue, then I ask Turbine to post their server specs as well as the computations they are using to determine that this lag is due to (and will diminish by) the twf changes. (BTW - I know that will never happen).

In addition, as I'm sure this has been said before... you claim more lag due to increased twf rolls? Guess what, that's because you have a larger player base (and yes, more money - even with F2P). Any company that brings in more customers and thus more transactions have greater loads on their equipment. Guess what? The solution isn't to drastically change the experience of a large portion of the customer base. The solution is to upgrade the equipment.

I hate to call conspiracy, but I think that the devs intend(ed) to implement this major change to the combat system for one of two reasons:

1) It is necessary for additional future changes that they have planned. (as Necron suggests)
2) It is just another attempt to totally throw off the balance of the system so that addicted DDO players will have to rebuild all of their toons, thus making them invest more in the game.

While I believe that #1 is probably the case here, #2 is also totally viable. While I believe that some of the spirit of #2 can introduce diversity, I believe this tactic has been overly abused by Turbine to stimulate "need" and keep players playing to regrind to adjust to these "virtual" changes.

I also am not putting it past them that they may have been introducing some of this lag artificially to push this change.

How long have we had all of these twf builds? A long g-d **** time. How long has this new breed of lag been around? Ask anyone running Shroud this week - lag has never been like this before.

I just wish they showed more respect to the player community, because even if this isn't a total hose job - they aren't giving the full facts. All these changes will not change the calculations in any meaningful way, they will just re-arrange them to other mechanics. Be honest about what you are doing, and if you are being honest, there is no reason not to divulge the facts (in this case, the actual server calculations).

/rant off (Although not really, since I'm not really mad, or frustrated, because perhaps this is what we've come to expect.)

I will take this in stride, and continue to play my characters because i like them, even though they may not be optimized for Turbine's latest flavor of the month.

I suppose that it is, in the end, just a game...

[Bluenoser]

I've already registered my principled objections to these changes, and won't rehash that here. I have some technical questions about the way these changes operate (apologies if this has already been answered, but I don't have time to scan through over 3400 posts - if you've already answered this, or if someone else has seen the answer, please feel free to reply to me directly - thanks.)

1) Does the new system mean that the attack bonuses attached to the off-hand weapon itself are irrelevant? For example, if I'm using a +2 rapier in my main hand, but I've got a nice +4 shortsword in the other, is my % to hit with the off-hand is simply a % function based on the +2 main weapon attack roll? (before someone laughs at the example, please remember that many players will be using just such weapons for a LONG time as they level up.)

2) What are the implications of this for critical hits with the off-hand weapon? Are they still possible? If so, how, since the entire crit system is based on the weapon's initial attack roll ("19 or 20", etc), which no longer occurs for the off-hand? Will all crit hits be based on the main hand weapon, such that a better crit range on the off-hand (say, a scimitar off-hand and a long-sword main hand) is now lost? Is a crit hit on the main hand automatically reproduced with the off-hand if the basic "to hit" proc roll succeeds? (If not, this is a very major nerf, with a very minimal decrease in the calculations required in each attack - inconceivable that this could prevent much lag.)

3) What are the implications for attacks against incorporeal, blurred or displaced opponents, all of which have as their defense an automatic % "miss" rate? Does this mean that an off-hand attack against an incorporeal (without Ghost touch weapon) will be, for example % proc rate X .5 auto-miss rate on main. For someone with ITWF, then, who procs off-hand attacks at 60%, the off-hand would hit only .6 x .5 = .3 or 30% of the time, down from, basically, 50%. (Again, that's a pretty steep nerf from getting two separate attacks each of which have only a 50% miss rate.)

Thanks in advance.



Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack. ...

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats grants a +20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.

[Stonz]

This is nothing more than a huge shameless nerf to TWF fighters and pallies.

You guys have gotten a few hundred bucks from me over the last 6 months and the joke is on me for it. I put so many hours into building up my TWF kensai fighter and his tomes and gear and he is the only character that I play so I guess you could say I put all my eggs in one basket, but I have left 2 other games over the years for big nerfs like this, which I call changing the rules halfway through, and I am sure other game developers will appreciate my business.

Don't expect to make a big change like this to a game that has been out for 3 years and not lose a chunk of your playerbase for it. And you know that... which is why it is so obvious that the whole point of this is to nerf the TWF fighters and pallies rather than this fix dps lag song and dance. I don't like seeing "miss" while I am fighting in the first place, and I am an obsessive min/max type gamer. Now you want to cut my off-hand swings in half? No, I don't think so.

Anyway, if you go ahead with the nerf, you will lose my business over it.

[Gnash]

I think that was talked about somewhere in this thread, but of course it is buried in all of the replies. Basically the physics check finds all available targets, so the second hand attack would just move to the next legitimate target. Sorry I can't provide a link 'cause I'm lazy.

thx brother

[tolana]

after logging on to lama and running my twf finesse 18rogue/2ftr this is what i think. my offhand gs lit2 or rad2 almost never goes off now so it will be totally worthless to grind for a gs item for you offhand. it was like putting a +1 weapon in the slot minus sa damage. i only saw what i think was a double strike once in two hours of pretty steady play. this was not a minor change in my dps this was total devastation of my off hand. i will check it out quite a bit more but if it stays like it is... i don't even know what to say... other than please don't implement any of these changes.

[Gnash]

I missed whether it was established that all attacks are now based on main hand....

or does off-hand proc cause seperate roll without physics check?

[Natashaelle]

I missed whether it was established that all attacks are now based on main hand....

or does off-hand proc cause seperate roll without physics check?

physics check looks for all available targets before signing off, although the auto-targetting will mean that off-hand attack will be made against the same one as primary ; but according to eladrin, if the first target dies, off-hand attacks should be made against a different target (I paraphrase).

[Grimtooth333]

My feedback is this change is unacceptable... period.

Honestly, if I spend 3 feats on my fighter/pally/bard/whatever for the TWF line then I better be getting the same 100% chance for an offhand hit that a Ranger Tempest 3 does, Rangers don't even have to meet the requirements as they are class feats for them, the rest do.

This is a very skewed nerf that damages the viability of peoples chars, to add insult to injury here you don't have a complete way for everyone to adjust to it... in any case you should have implemented the ways to adapt to this in the game BEFORE playing with this. What am I talking about? I can name 2 off the top of my head that are vital for this; Lesser HOW available in game for a small amount of plat (like swapping a high level Sorc/Fs/Bard spell) or a free one to ALL chars after a change to the game like this, and some form of Greensteel deconstruction (with a nerf you have to also have no ingred/shard/en cell losses to do so.)

Turbine is fail/fail/fail here on all counts.

Yes by all means drop the overhead, but don't make changes we can't completely adjust to.

Or you can do as we know you SHOULD do here, get more processing power, or design/nerf end game quests that aren't sporting mobs with a zillion HP to take down, it is those mobs that are the cause of the heavier draws on your processing power, more HP = more swings = more checks.

[Arctigis]

Thing is that your "a little slower" nerf intentionally kills the viability of multi class speed builds that rely on every available speed advantage to be viable (but still decidedly sub-optimal). So speed builds are going to lose the bulk of useful DPS and have nothing to show for the player investment put into carefully constructing now-invalidated toons. I remind you that speed builds only come at great opportunity cost to build, to achieve a workable, competitive edge that is now thoroughly blunted.
I am not interested in funding that particular mediocrity; and I am now understandably reluctant to invest MORE resources into another custom build only to see it nerfed too--and for the same lame (non)reasons speed builds are being nerfed now.
This U5 nerf of TWF in general and speed builds in particular is antithetical to a fundamental principle in DnD, so its NOT "balance"--what it is, is an arbitrary flub that happens to be the most convenient, cheap way to divert resources around some bad code that would be unpleasantly expensive to repair. The real problem here is NOT speed builds, its the bad code issues execs have clearly elected not to repair in favor of a cheaper band-aid solution.



The money I have spent on my speed builds speaks louder than your useless admonishment/chastisement to presume to tell the devs that which they already know--at least I have the integrity to back up my interests with my cash purchases...and also not to reward negative performance with even MORE positive reward, and to make sure the word gets out.


How fortunate are the ignorant, for ignorance truly is bliss...and as a dog to his vomit, so returns a fool to his folly.

When a DnD GM repeatedly pulls the rug out from under the very talent he is supposedly trying to attract, that talent will find something else to do with their time (and money).

Great post mate!

I'd rep you but I need to 'spread around..'

[smatt]

Great post mate!

I'd rep you but I need to 'spread around..' I disagree the post you quoted is a perfect example of somebody that's got the entire thing wrong. Very simply put, very short sighted, and self absorbed. But it's cool he can have his opinion as can you.

[sirironheart]

Is it possiable to drop out 50% of the special effects you see on screen...sprites etc. I found in other games this helped alot to cut lag due to server load. Not sure how your engine is set up. This would avoid having to nerf anything except the eye candy.

[SquelchHU]

Honestly, if I spend 3 feats on my fighter/pally/bard/whatever for the TWF line then I better be getting the same 100% chance for an offhand hit that a Ranger Tempest 3 does, Rangers don't even have to meet the requirements as they are class feats for them, the rest do.

False. Both Rangers and non Rangers are down three feats... yes they get the TWF line for free, but since they have to take Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack they really aren't any better off.

Actually Rangers are worse off because Tempest 3 requires a fourth feat.

[tasebro]

I disagree the post you quoted is a perfect example of somebody that's got the entire thing wrong. Very simply put, very short sighted, and self absorbed. But it's cool he can have his opinion as can you.

Very well smatt, since in your estimation I am the one here "that's got the entire thing wrong", then I would very much like to hear your sage wisdom as to what is "right".
As they say in Missouri, "Show Me"....

[tolana]

probably a lot of them. oh, and quoted for emphasis

maybe you should go to lama and check it out yourself instead of reading what someone posted. i went to lama and the changes absolutely kill my dps on my twf finesse 18rogue/2fighter. i dont care what the thread said cuz in actuality it is a drastic change and not for the better. maybe your ranger is just fine but there are builds out there that are totally ruined with the changes.

[Arctigis]

I disagree the post you quoted is a perfect example of somebody that's got the entire thing wrong. Very simply put, very short sighted, and self absorbed. But it's cool he can have his opinion as can you.

I'd be interested in why you think the quoted post is so badly wrong Smatt, given that I generally agree with your
posts. My perspective may be coloured somewhat by the fact that I completed my Monsteresque build on
Friday ;) (12/6/2 Fig/Rng/Rog). I just hope we get respecs.

[smatt]

I'd be interested in why you think the quoted post is so badly wrong Smatt, given that I generally agree with your
posts. My perspective may be coloured somewhat by the fact that I completed my Monsteresque build on
Friday ;) (12/6/2 Fig/Rng/Rog). I just hope we get respecs. Well I thnk it's a rather narrow minded post based on an opinion that it's ven feasible to "FIX" the code or that the code was even poorly done at the time it was done. I've also come to form my own opinion that it's very liekly the changes being implemented are neccesary to some extent , because they've hit a wall as to how far they can go wit some of the game mechanics, and that has left them no way to expand the game moving forwrad.

In other words there's a lot more to this than this narrow sighted , they're taking the chepa way out, they just want to nerf us becasue we're uber, they're just being mean... Or any of the other doom opinions. Looking at what's being said and talking to peopel who are over testing on Lama.. It seems that's it's not nearly as devastating to ANY build at this point, and to be honest I'm starting to hear about some things that are actually creating some more powerful possiblities going out...

I simply don't buy into most of the talk over all of this...

[smatt]

maybe you should go to lama and check it out yourself instead of reading what someone posted. i went to lama and the changes absolutely kill my dps on my twf finesse 18rogue/2fighter. i dont care what the thread said cuz in actuality it is a drastic change and not for the better. maybe your ranger is just fine but there are builds out there that are totally ruined with the changes.
I suppose that's a possibility... Pigeon meat hole... iI does suck that builds get nerfed no doubt.. But if you've been playing this game for any amount of time... It's always happened.. And will continue to happen....

[tasebro]

Well I thnk it's a rather narrow minded post based on an opinion...I simply don't buy into most of the talk over all of this...

That indicates to me that you are not getting what I am saying here at all, so I will clarify it for you: I am going by what the OP (specifically Eladrin, the dev) actually have officially stated, not an "opinion"....

When this nerf goes live, I loose out big time, so given that, I am interested being reasonably accommodated in good faith, or if that cant be done for practical reasons, I am fine with equitable compensation to mitigate the damage that must be done to my investments (ditto that for everyone else who is getting the not-so-clean end of the stick on this deal; I want my fellow players accommodated too--including you by the way). If such accommodation is not going to happen (and that does not appear likely to me at this point) then that is a problem.

Thank you for replying by the way. If you would care to restate your sentiments, i am still interested in what you have to say.

[Xeraphim]

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk 100% 70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed) 110% 60%
14 Pal/6 Rng 110% 65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk 100% 90%
---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80% * Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF.

Edit 2:
Updated information in the main post to reflect the most recent changes.


Saw this in a different thread referenced as a chart. Could you, since Wind 4 is the Monk's answer to Tempest, push the numbers on the Offhand a touch higher, or drop them on Tempest, keeping them more or less close to each other if not in line nearly directly?

I'm thinking


Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
GTWF Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90% - Ranger 6 has ITWF so the #s are actually lower, this chart assumes level 20 with GTWF
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
GTWF Wind I 0 0 100% 85%
GTWF Wind II 4% 0 100% 90%
GTWF Wind III 8% 0 105% 95%
GTWF Wind IV +10% 0 110% 100%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80% * Only when wielding two weapons.

...but only because it seems fair to have classes wholly dependent on every attack proc'ing as their means of justifiable DPS maintain that 100% at Epic levels instead of the alternative


Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 50%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 70%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 80%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 80%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80% * Only when wielding two weapons.

[Chronotrip]

Eladrin says that the Nerf is to "bridge the Gap" between TWF and THF. WHY!?!?!?!?! There are some Major things to try and remember about the differances between the two that are very important because as it stands, the Devs are about to MAJORLY NeRf TWF in Favor of THF and then Everyone and there Brothers will be THF. I think that even if we don't want to, we can all admit that TWF is MAJORLY Over Powered compaired to THF. So if you wana NeRf TWF JUST A LITTLE ok i get that. You wana reduce Lag, ok, not only do I
get that but I am all for it. Just try not to do something that you will then latter have to fix and then say "ooops we really messed that one up didn't we" a la Epic Sword of Shadows ( which i think should be kept as is and the drop rate for the acctual sword made better and the epic items needed for upgrade kept the same b/c they are super rare as is).

First of all I want to say that I am Very Glad we got a heads up about this B4 it went live. Secondly I Know that any time that there are major changes to the game people are going to FREAK OUT and assume it is a NeRf (although in this case the Devs have been blunt and addmited that it is a total over all dps nerf which is also at the very least considerate that they addmit it). If this idea of "piggy Backing" off have attacks WILL reduce lag and if by lowering the chance of the off hand attack hitting you can reduce TWF's monsterously over poweredness (thats right, its a word if I say it is) then I dont think that anyone can complain too much as TWF is totaly way more dps than THF. THE THING IS TWF should ALWAYS be WAY, WAY more Dps than THF for several major reasons. The first to reasons will be numbered with there sub-resons being letters.

# 1 Reason: Weapon fighters (AKA: NON-MONKEYS :P)
A: TWF is more EXPENSIVE feat wise than THF, so if you make them close to the same Dps then no one will want to play them, everyone will roll up THF and you will then have to make additional NeRfs to fix the problem, MUCH as you are thinking about doing now. You dont even really need ANY feats to be affective with THF but Currently you NEED all of the feats for TWF and not only that but also all of the GOOD dps single hand weapons are Exotic, there are NO
Exotic Two Handed weapons (something that Hope changes soon, such as 1/2 Orcs having bonus to hit and dmg with a Dubble Axe or something, b/c if they put in with 1/2 orcs that would mean that we would have the new weapon in about a year or two, cause thats how turbine rolls remember when the pastlife
feats were viewable but TR was not ready for like 1-2 months afterwords? :P) So thats 4 feats right there!!!!! not to mention Over Sized if you are a multi with a low BAB which would make it 5 feats!!!!!! And again, unless your a Fighter or a Barb, you dont NEED the feats to be affective and now that we dont get as much out of twitching, there is even LESS of a reason to go with the THF line of feats.

B: STATS. It is WAY more expinsive stat wise to go with TWF because you have to get your Dex so incredably high and then either Str or Con or some other stat has to suffer. If I can roll up a 28 point fighter and give it 18 Str and 16 Con or 14 Str and 15 Dex( and prey for a +2 tome as someone is obviously new b/c i only have 28 point build) and what like 14-16 Con what choice Am i going to make? Especially if they both do the SAME dmg or even CLOSE to the same dmg. they wont do close to the same dmg cause I'll have 14 Str and that Fighter over yonder will have 18. *NOTE that I have 32 point build and 36 even as I TR but i am thinking worse case b/c GRANTED when you have that many build points the whole stat thing becomes less of an issue.


C: Multi mobs. THF has always been great in some ways b/c if you are Flanked you are still dmg the mnobs to the sides and even behind you! not so with TWF.

D: Distance. As a TWF I have to be close enough to a mob that i can feal the heat coming off of their stinky breath. My THF Barb? He can be 1/2 a foot ball field away form a mob and still hit them no problem. Why would i want to spend more feats and stat points to be able to do the same dmg to a single mob less dmg to multi mobs AND have to get closer/have a better chance to not even "Miss" but just wiff Air.

E: Expinsive. $$$$$$$$$ TWF is MORE resources!!!! You have to spend more moneys while lvling and you have to spend WAY more time FARMING SHROUD. IF Turbine was smart they would figure out a way to get everyone going with two Green Steel WHATEVERS in each hand. For example GREEN STEEL SHIELDS!!!!! and that is just off the top of my head turbine, comon. Yeah you DO need a Large Horn to make A Great Axe (dont know about the other great weapons, any one every make a GS Great CLUB?????) but I need 4 SUPREM shards and TWO SHARDS OF POWER to make 2 GS khopeshes!!! and not only that but its TWO DUAL SHARD weapons so for 2 Min2's thats 10 CARROTS!!!!! ( Large Devil Scales) See right here is where everyone, and I mean EVERYONE should be storming the gates, demanding that Turbine not gimp TWF tooooo much b/c even you hard core twitchers who love THF and resent the fact that TWF Kinsai pure 20 fighters are Gods should agree that a major nerf is TOTALLY unfair to all those people who have dumped 10 Carrots into a single set of weapons.

# 2 Reason THE MONKEYS!!!!! NO Dev has EVER LOVED THEM!!!

A. DR. Only way to get it when you need it is to hope for devots which never drop. And I mean NEVER! I TR'd with THREE MONKEYS so yeah, I can say that we have ran that stupid Necro quest A LOT and not even one of us got it. 2 of the monkeys were monks also in their former life so it wasn't even like it was new to ANY of us. The SECOND way to get it is to Craft Green Stee l hand wraps. ohhhh wait no, their are none. BUT WAIT, to make up for it we will make you run a Raid at LEAST 9ish times B4 you finally get what every other class had B4 they started runing this raid. Everyone ALREADY THINKS that Monks are poor dps and not having DR bypassing weapons makes things even worse. So to GIMP them even further than they already HAVE is an OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!

B. $$$$$ Lets face it, you have to PAY to be a MONK. Either in Turbine points which costs Moneys or in time to Farm that many Turbine points or in going VIP which AGAIN is costing you Moneys, sweeeet, sweeeet tasty Moneys. Just as many people argue that the MASTER RACE aka War Forged are over powered (OP) so too should this arguement be made for MONKEYS. WHY?????? BECAUSE you HAVE to PAY for them, they are not UNLOCKABLE like Drow (ewwwwwww, squishy!!!!) or Favored Soul (AWESOME CLASS, I would Say WAY OP but not complaining, ALL healers NEED MASS Dev LOVE IMHO)

C. Concept. I am sorry, but when I think of Monk, i think of attacking REALLY REALLY FAST with my BARE Hands. Unless i miss read, it seemed that Eladrin was saying that monks would be better off using a staff and going with Fire style. To me that is simply unacceptable, they should be trying to make the styles more BALANCED rather than the curent Wind vs. Fire debate and the proposed Fire only viable option. one way to make the stances more appealing is they could give earth more DR and Water could auto regen HP or something!!! anything!!!! but dont gimp an already under loved Class!!!

D. Damage. Monkeys do NOT do as much dmg as the are SOPOSED to. Unless I am wrong, the books say they should be 2d20 at lvl 20 not 2d10 and what about the diff dice size for races?!?!? see very many HALFLING monks lately???? ohhhh maybe thats because of the +1AC/+1 to HIT AND the SNEAK ATTACK DMG. If they had a diff die size for Halflings and War Forged and everyone else was the same as always we would see a shifting in the monk races to be more balnced. So to give them a big chance to miss with thier off hand is going to hurt them most of all as they have always relied on a Hing # of attacks at a very High SPEED to do ANY DMG. why not gimp everyone else and just let monks stay the same, they still would not be AS OP as they should be.

SIGH, this concludes my RANT on TWF, as some one who plays almost all TWF toons because I love the concept, I have NO problem with the Devs trying to BALANCE the Melee mecanics out, so long as we ALL agree that TWF should still be WAY more Dps to reflect the cost issues mentioned above. I know that it probably wont happen though and 6 months from now Turbine will be slaping there faces asking themselves what they did, where they went wrong. I for One WILL be here, not to say I told you so and not cause this is the best MMO i have played (not like it is bad, and the action adventure stlye instead of traditonal mmos like EverCrack and wow is great) and not even B/C ITS D&D and I will ALWAYS LOVE D&D but B/C Star Wars: The Old Republic is not going to be out for at least Another YEAR :P :P :P :P :P :P

When we change the way we look at things, the things we look at change.
Vitrioll 12wizy/6ranger/2rogue Proud Officer of Elite By Nature!
We Raid with pride!
AROGNNESSEN

[hirmor]

I am a pay-as-you-go player ("Valued Customer") since it went f2p... (clip) ...and my grievance with nerfdate 5 is that clearly part of the money I sent turbine that was meant to fund my interests is now riding on some Turbine executives hip, instead of funding the specific resources I bought, and I am being effectively screwed out of my current content interface (i.e. my custom builds), not to mention losing ALL sense of "ownership" of said toons and the build choices allocated therein. I am not alone in this either, and that is the downside of buying content from Turbine, since they can (and obviously will) alter it at any time it suits them to do so, even if it categorically trashes players investments in their builds.
So here I am in stuck in limbo, knowing that with nerfdate 5 my main toon--and almost all of my alts--will soon be rendered severely hampered in their intended purpose as my only interface with the content I bought (various DPS "speed" builds), and on top of that, we now have clear indications that marginalization of all power builds is the "new mandate", and since power builds is what I am currently interested in, I now have no motivation to work on any alts since they are all going to be nerfed in the name of "game balance".
I will have to start over from scratch AGAIN since the carrot is now smaller, and on a longer stick.
I do want to play my toons that I have invested so much time and money into tweaking to be the way I built them to be, but I know there is no point since any achievement that resembles effectiveness will likely be nerfed come updates 5/6, so I now have severe reservations about trusting turbine to do-the-right-thing when the powers that be have demonstrated the intention to employ deleterious/lame solutions, then take the money and run.

First post in years. So bare with me.

Been a DDO player since its first release, and have been a VIP since it went F2P, even during the many months I didn't play because of real life. I felt that DDO needed every penny it could get to stay alive. Guess I am what you call an unwavering supporter of DDO.

I lived through so many nerfs (or fundamental altering of the game) that I can't recall them all.

While frustrating and painful, these nerfs have also been opportunities to re-roll and start over. Yes enjoy the game from another point of view. With more failures came more successes. And the gratification of beating the game again.

BUT this doesn't mean that I don't feel for those that paid hard earn money, and invested time, in builds that will be, and there is little doubt about that, soon significantly affected by Update 5. In the past, and as recently as the current +2 loot bonus for "technical difficulties", Turbine has done whatever it could to compensate players (short of giving back money... LOL but that's business). And this, as many ex-Wow players may tell you, is something that puts Turbine in the category of companies that care as much as they can for the players' base.

Some may say it is easy to give us "virtual goods" to compensate us as it costs them nothing. Indeed. But it doesn't make those "virtual goods" worthless to the players.

And that gave me an idea. And yes it does test Turbine's claim that they care.

Like some many times in the past, upon Update 5 going live, let's have Turbine grant each player a Heart of Wood "+whatever" (they can make +5, I bet they can make +your level) so all players affected by the "nerf" can re-roll. Not a perfect solution I admit.

It is like a push of a button for Turbine, with little direct cost. For the players like Tasebro that paid their content with specific builds in mind, it is a fair compensation, and a great way to keep Turbine's player base as intact as possible.

So here is my great idea! Lol. Go ahead feel free to shoot it down or give it some lift. I care little for rep, but I do care for the game, and its community of developpers and players.

[Engoril]

A 10% double hit chance on the main hand is not the same as a 10% speed enhancement. A speed enhancement when TWF'ing changes 2 hits into 2.2 hits. A 10% double hit chance only changes 2 hits to 2.1 hits or to be more update 5 specific, 1.8 hits into 1.9 hits.

This particular point is a nasty nerf targetted at TWF paladins, fighters and most especially monks. I don't mind an overall reduction in TWF DPS that affects all classes proportionally. I do however strongly object to these 3 classes being hit extra hard with the nerf bat. That extra 10% speed boost they can get through enhancements or spells is a nice draw to the class. I don't want to see it halved in effect.

(sorry if this obvious mathematical point has already been pointed out, but I've only managed to read about 70 pages of this monster thread :) )

[DoctorBadWolf]

Thing is that your "a little slower" nerf intentionally kills the viability of multi class speed builds that rely on every available speed advantage to be viable (but still decidedly sub-optimal). So speed builds are going to lose the bulk of useful DPS and have nothing to show for the player investment put into carefully constructing now-invalidated toons. I remind you that speed builds only come at great opportunity cost to build, to achieve a workable, competitive edge that is now thoroughly blunted.
I am not interested in funding that particular mediocrity; and I am now understandably reluctant to invest MORE resources into another custom build only to see it nerfed too--and for the same lame (non)reasons speed builds are being nerfed now.
This U5 nerf of TWF in general and speed builds in particular is antithetical to a fundamental principle in DnD, so its NOT "balance"--what it is, is an arbitrary flub that happens to be the most convenient, cheap way to divert resources around some bad code that would be unpleasantly expensive to repair. The real problem here is NOT speed builds, its the bad code issues execs have clearly elected not to repair in favor of a cheaper band-aid solution.



The money I have spent on my speed builds speaks louder than your useless admonishment/chastisement to presume to tell the devs that which they already know--at least I have the integrity to back up my interests with my cash purchases...and also not to reward negative performance with even MORE positive reward, and to make sure the word gets out.


How fortunate are the ignorant, for ignorance truly is bliss...and as a dog to his vomit, so returns a fool to his folly.

When a DnD GM repeatedly pulls the rug out from under the very talent he is supposedly trying to attract, that talent will find something else to do with their time (and money).

Want some cheese with that whine?
Balance is good.

Seriously reducing the number of calculations being done while a single character attacks, when that character is causing significantly more calculations per second than any other type of character, makes sense.

It also isn't a lazy fix, rewriting how the majority of melee combat is resolved and calculated is a not a small, or petty undertaking.

Multi-class speed builds still get more attacks per chain than other melee builds. Many sources of increased chances of double strike and off hand attacks stack.

[IronClan]

First post in years. So bare with me.

Been a DDO player since its first release, and have been a VIP since it went F2P, even during the many months I didn't play because of real life. I felt that DDO needed every penny it could get to stay alive. Guess I am what you call an unwavering supporter of DDO.

I lived through so many nerfs (or fundamental altering of the game) that I can't recall them all.

While frustrating and painful, these nerfs have also been opportunities to re-roll and start over. Yes enjoy the game from another point of view. With more failures came more successes. And the gratification of beating the game again.

BUT this doesn't mean that I don't feel for those that paid hard earn money, and invested time, in builds that will be, and there is little doubt about that, soon significantly affected by Update 5. In the past, and as recently as the current +2 loot bonus for "technical difficulties", Turbine has done whatever it could to compensate players (short of giving back money... LOL but that's business). And this, as many ex-Wow players may tell you, is something that puts Turbine in the category of companies that care as much as they can for the players' base.

Some may say it is easy to give us "virtual goods" to compensate us as it costs them nothing. Indeed. But it doesn't make those "virtual goods" worthless to the players.

And that gave me an idea. And yes it does test Turbine's claim that they care.

Like some many times in the past, upon Update 5 going live, let's have Turbine grant each player a Heart of Wood "+whatever" (they can make +5, I bet they can make +your level) so all players affected by the "nerf" can re-roll. Not a perfect solution I admit.

It is like a push of a button for Turbine, with little direct cost. For the players like Tasebro that paid their content with specific builds in mind, it is a fair compensation, and a great way to keep Turbine's player base as intact as possible.

So here is my great idea! Lol. Go ahead feel free to shoot it down or give it some lift. I care little for rep, but I do care for the game, and its community of developpers and players.


+1 I agree with this, although I think cries of doom and "useless" characters are quite overstated...

Lets put it this way... imagine post nerf... how many will REALLY go THF? Even with the reduced off hand hits if you go THF you're giving up: Khopesh's, double smites, double assassinates, double Bursts, double force, double effects (weighted etc.) double stat damagers, double paralyzers, double the green steel enchantments...

No one likes anything that makes them or their stuff a little worse... That's understandable, but in the end I suspect many of the people saying their character will be ruined, will look at the alternatives, min max a little, read the damage calcs that are already being argued over, and decide they'll use the free respec (if any) to tweak their TWF characters a little while retaining the basic TWF style in the end...

[Aashrym]

A 10% double hit chance on the main hand is not the same as a 10% speed enhancement. A speed enhancement when TWF'ing changes 2 hits into 2.2 hits. A 10% double hit chance only changes 2 hits to 2.1 hits or to be more update 5 specific, 1.8 hits into 1.9 hits.

This particular point is a nasty nerf targetted at TWF paladins, fighters and most especially monks. I don't mind an overall reduction in TWF DPS that affects all classes proportionally. I do however strongly object to these 3 classes being hit extra hard with the nerf bat. That extra 10% speed boost they can get through enhancements or spells is a nice draw to the class. I don't want to see it halved in effect.

(sorry if this obvious mathematical point has already been pointed out, but I've only managed to read about 70 pages of this monster thread :) )

Your math is off. 10 attacks produces 11 attacks on average with a 10% chance. 20 attacks will produce 22 attacks on average.

There is a 10% chance to proc a double strike on each main hand attack. More attacks does equal more procs. And a 10% proc will average the same number of attacks as a 10% speed increase to attacks.

[Krag]

+1 I agree with this, although I think cries of doom and "useless" characters are quite overstated...

Lets put it this way... imagine post nerf... how many will REALLY go THF? Even with the reduced off hand hits if you go THF you're giving up: Khopesh's, double smites, double assassinates, double Bursts, double force, double effects (weighted etc.) double stat damagers, double paralyzers, double the green steel enchantments...

No one likes anything that makes them or their stuff a little worse... That's understandable, but in the end I suspect many of the people saying their character will be ruined, will look at the alternatives, min max a little, read the damage calcs that are already being argued over, and decide they'll use the free respec (if any) to tweak their TWF characters a little while retaining the basic TWF style in the end...

You are asking the wrong question.
How many would go THF if they could dump all their levels for free and get GS deconstruction?

[IronClan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhaz1970 View Post
According to Squelch's numbers TWF DPS will be lower by about 16-17%.

Wasn't those numbers for ranger and erroneously stating the effect of tempest as 10% when the actual benefit is ~8% due to haste stacking overhead and only counting double strike for main hand.

Fighters, Paladins:
Now: main 108%, off 108%
U5: main 110%, off 88%
Difference: <8% decrease

Rangers:
Now: main 108%, off 108%*5/4=135%
U5: main 105%, off 105%
Difference: ~14% decrease

Monks:
Same as fighters/paladins except 8% instead of <8% due to same damage on main and off hand.
Additionally, double strike will increase effect of specials, ToD and ki strikes.
e.g. ToD: gain 10% double strike + 80% off hand proc + 8% double strike off hand proc + off hand attack damage =>benefit increased by some 120%, this translates to a dps boost of ~10%
Difference: >2% increase for dark monks

Rest:
100/100->100/80
Difference: <10% decrease

THF:
Twitch more or less brought in line with standing attack

All with madstone boots: ~4.5%

I'm refering to this post:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2994543&postcount=72

If he's wrong I'm all ears, am not min maxer enough to actually care to go through it with a fine tooth comb and while I don't often agree with min/maxer mindsets (they'll all figure out that having fun is more important than razor honed uber optimal characters (that are the most subject to nerfs) sooner or later. (Wow that was a run on sentence LOL). I think I figured it out a few years ago when I had a kid and time to spend obsessing over a couple damage points more or less per second went right out the window.

Anyway I'd love to see some other players chime in on your numbers and Squelch's and arrive at some sort of consensus. This thread seems like the place to do that.

[BlackSteel]

Eladrin says that the Nerf is to "bridge the Gap" between TWF and THF. WHY!?!?!?!?! There are some Major things to try and remember about the differances between the two that are very important because as it stands, the Devs are about to MAJORLY NeRf TWF in Favor of THF and then Everyone and there Brothers will be THF. I think that even if we don't want to, we can all admit that TWF is MAJORLY Over Powered compaired to THF. So if you wana NeRf TWF JUST A LITTLE ok i get that. You wana reduce Lag, ok, not only do I
get that but I am all for it. Just try not to do something that you will then latter have to fix and then say "ooops we really messed that one up didn't we" a la Epic Sword of Shadows ( which i think should be kept as is and the drop rate for the acctual sword made better and the epic items needed for upgrade kept the same b/c they are super rare as is).

When we change the way we look at things, the things we look at change.
Vitrioll 12wizy/6ranger/2rogue Proud Officer of Elite By Nature!
We Raid with pride!
AROGNNESSEN

and this is whats being catered to. an overwhelming amount of new players that dont realize the mechanics. to this poster: TWF does more damage now, and will do even more damage after the update. while TWF is indeed getting hit with the nerf bat, your entire post is invalid, b/c THF is getting nerfed even more than TWF.

[SquelchHU]

+1 I agree with this, although I think cries of doom and "useless" characters are quite overstated...

Lets put it this way... imagine post nerf... how many will REALLY go THF? Even with the reduced off hand hits if you go THF you're giving up: Khopesh's, double smites, double assassinates, double Bursts, double force, double effects (weighted etc.) double stat damagers, double paralyzers, double the green steel enchantments...

No one likes anything that makes them or their stuff a little worse... That's understandable, but in the end I suspect many of the people saying their character will be ruined, will look at the alternatives, min max a little, read the damage calcs that are already being argued over, and decide they'll use the free respec (if any) to tweak their TWF characters a little while retaining the basic TWF style in the end...

Let's break this down.

The following qualify as basic DPS, which TWF loses out on strongly and thus is not a valid argument as they are already being considered:

Khopesh.
Double bursts.
Double force.
Double greensteel enchantments.

The following no longer exist at all:

Double assassinate.

The following have been nerfed into complete and utter uselessness:

Weighted auto stun (for the DC boost you only need one, thus even if you used one it's irrelevant to TWF).

The following is only relevant at lower levels:

Double paralyzers.
Double stat damagers.

And of course all of em have been reduced by reduced offhand attacks.

So that just leaves double smites and nothing else... which are worse off than before, and while smites add up to 67 damage per click you don't get that many of them so their overall effect on DPS is very small unless talking about lower levels where you can blow your load and kill the mob by using all your smites.

Meanwhile you can go THF and save 3 feats, 8 build points, and half plat/larges on weapons.

[BlackSteel]

Meanwhile you can go THF and save 3 feats, 8 build points, and half plat/larges on weapons.

only really valid for a fighter or barbarian AND even then you're doing between 15-20% less damage than a TWF of the same class/build

and its only 4-6 build points depending on the race and whether or not you mind lesser reincarnating after hitting 20 and grabbing a +3 dex tome.

heck I've had THF barbarians that could have taken TWF if so inclined. the dex investment or the equipment are not nearly the problems that people make it out to be. Its not like theres a finite amount of playtime available per character, or that once you hit 20 you can no longer acquire anything. gearing up a character eventually happens, its a given, one styles max potential shouldnt be capped just b/c the other takes another week or two to finish.

[Kalaxia]

TWF should not be higher DPS because you pay more feats or materials. The requirement for more feats/mats is one of the root problems, and should not be the expectation.

Part of the problem is that TWF has too many penalties to a build.. so it seems like they have always been compensated by being allowed to maintain more DPS. If both specs had similiar requirements, no one would mind if the DPS was balanced. People could choose the weapon type they actually like best, and are not lured into. Even with lower requirements, both have their perks still.

My ideas to balance TWF and THF better:

#1 - Fix exotic feats. They are biased toward penalizing one-handers. Move them to martial or give certain classes some of those exotic melee weapons (other than dwarf) for free, and be done with it. That will remove 1 feat penalty from many TWF builds.

#2 - Remove oversized TWF and compensate the penalty somehow, or give it to certain melee classes for free. I prefer just removing the hit penalty and get rid of that feat completely. OTWF is nothing more than a bloated hinderance to the balance equation.

#3 - Leave TWF offhand proc rates roughly where they have always been. GTWF should proc offhands at 100%, even with the new system. Increase THF damage to come closer to this, not the other way around. If you nerf TWF, it effects all gameplay. An example is give tempest a ~5% doublestrike per tier, instead of offhand procs, and leave the TWF line as the source of increasing offhand procs, so that other classes and specs are not penalized so heavily by this change.

#4 - Equalize materials for melee weapons so that 2 one-handers are closer to 1 two-hander when crafting. They still shouldn't be the same... because you ARE benefiting from 2 items slots over 1 slot. So you should pay more in mats, just maybe a little less.

#5 - Remove twitching from THF (this one is already going to be done), as I believe this is partly what made properly balancing THF even worse. All twitching did was to stop THF from getting a properly coded increase it deserved.

#6 - Don't balance TWF or THF based around the extreme epic weapon examples. Buff or Nerf weapons that just seem too extreme (partly done.) This kills balance for everyone else inbetween.

#7 - Fix the base damage and/or crit on many of the weapon types that player's generally consider "completely useless" or underpowered. They're in the game, make them used. This may actually broaden the range of available weapons and uniqueness a bit. An example might be making something like a warhammer have the same crit stats as a khopesh. So there isn't just 1 weapon that everyone flocks to. This could also make it much easier for TWF players to get 2 of each weapon type they want.

This would give players a choice of weapon styles without everyone being the same exact cookie cutter build to max dps. It's a video game afterall. Part of what makes D&D and DDO cool, is the customizing of character builds. When people feel penalized for picking a weapon type they like or feel forced to use the same one as everyone else.. it's not cool.

[BlackSteel]

#1 - Fix exotic feats. They are biased toward penalizing one-handers. Move them to martial or give certain classes some of those exotic melee weapons (other than dwarf) for free, and be done with it. That will remove 1 feat penalty from many TWF builds.

#2 - Remove oversized TWF and compensate the penalty somehow, or give it to certain melee classes for free. I prefer just removing the hit penalty and get rid of that feat completely. OTWF is nothing more than a bloated hinderance to the balance equation.

#3 - Leave TWF offhand proc rates roughly where they have always been. GTWF should proc offhands at 100%, even with the new system. Increase THF damage to come closer to this, not the other way around. If you nerf TWF, it effects all gameplay. An example is give tempest a ~5% doublestrike per tier, instead of offhand procs, and leave the TWF line as the source of increasing offhand procs, so that other classes and specs are not penalized so heavily by this change.

#4 - Equalize materials for melee weapons so that 2 one-handers are closer to 1 two-hander when crafting. They still shouldn't be the same... because you ARE benefiting from 2 items slots over 1 slot. So you should pay more in mats, just maybe a little less.

#5 - Remove twitching from THF (this one is already going to be done), as I believe this is partly what made properly balancing THF even worse. All twitching did was to stop THF from getting a properly coded increase it deserved.

#6 - Don't balance TWF or THF based around the extreme epic weapon examples. Buff or Nerf weapons that just seem too extreme (partly done.) This kills balance for everyone else inbetween.

#7 - Fix the base damage and/or crit on many of the weapon types that player's generally consider "completely useless" or underpowered. They're in the game, make them used. This may actually broaden the range of available weapons and uniqueness a bit. An example might be making something like a warhammer have the same crit stats as a khopesh. So there isn't just 1 weapon that everyone flocks to. This could also make it much easier for TWF players to get 2 of each weapon type they want.

This would give players a choice of weapon styles without everyone being the same exact cookie cutter build to max dps. It's a video game afterall. Part of what makes D&D and DDO cool, is the customizing of character builds. When people feel penalized for picking a weapon type they like or feel forced to use the same one as everyone else.. it's not cool.

1) every single THF would love to have a weapon type equivelent to the khopesh, its well worth the feat. I dont think I've ever heard someone complain about this....... atlaest not in this fashion, normally its that it needs to be nerfed.

2)heavy weapons typically have better base damage and a better critical profile, the point is that most people are not ambidextrious, and swinging competently with your 'off' hand wont hit as hard or as coordinated as ur main hand. OTWF makes sense, and is a sufficient bonus/penalty for the benefits. Noone is making you dual weild khopeshs, nor heavy picks. To hit in non - epic end game is laughable, I know plenty of people that before epic was released, dual weilded khopeshes w/o the khopesh feat OR OTWF. To top it off you'd perform better in epic with a heavy/light pick combination anyway

3) no complaints here

4) no clue what you're saying here, as you're mixing points, you do and you dont

5) autoattack is god awful slow, and feels lazy. I personally cant stand it. Additionally by removing twitching it also penalizes THF more than TWF. both take a -4 to hit for moving, but why should THF'ers take a 15% DPS loss for movement while TWF doesnt?

6) agreed, drives me nuts to see how many people got their panties in a not about the eSoS being too powerful. But guess what, its a trash mob beater, AND TWF STILL DID MORE DAMAGE ON STUNNED MOBS THAN THE PRENERF SOS

7) nty, only a few weapons make little sense, and typically its only a matter of 1 or 2 damage. I'd prefer some new weapon types. (scythe please, you can even make it exotic instead of a simple weapon, just please please please give THF a 20/x4 weapon)

[wax_on_wax_off]

i can't believe in one fell swoop turbine is going to rip most of the twitching fun out of melee classes.

Learn to time my smites and divine sacrifices on to my extra offhand attacks, GONE

Mob control with on the move glancing blows, GONE

i can imagine down the track ill just be sitting there in slayer, whack whack whack, why don't i just hit my head against the wall instead, it'll be just as repetitive.

I freaking love the twitch element of DDO, it sets it apart from other MMO's and it might be the single thing that keeps the game feeling fresh even when i think, golly, i wonder if ive done this quest 100 times by now.

Please please please please, rebalance melee combat but don't don't don't remove the twitch factor, it will kill the game.

[Slugnutty]

I realize it's a spit in the ocean - but I guess you (Turbine) and I are no longer in partnership.
I'll let my VIP payment go through this month and then I'll cancel my VIP.

It's been fun - but just not worth the aggravation - just when I made it to level 20 and I've put my heart in to creating my FS TWF and was enjoying myself - this.

Goodbye Turbine - it was fun while it lasted - although short.

[Kalaxia]

1) every single THF would love to have a weapon type equivelent to the khopesh, its well worth the feat.
2)heavy weapons typically have better base damage and a better critical profile,
3) no complaints here
4) no clue what you're saying here, as you're mixing points, you do and you dont
5) .. why should THF'ers take a 15% DPS loss for movement while TWF doesnt?
6) agreed,
7) nty, only a few weapons make little sense, and typically its only a matter of 1 or 2 damage. I'd prefer some new weapon types. (scythe please, you can even make it exotic instead of a simple weapon, just please please please give THF a 20/x4 weapon)

1 - I thought about that.. but that may possibly cause more problems as everyone would feel forced to now use the exotic 2h. It doesn't solve the problem of requirements balance well.

2,3,4 - The reason I say all of those, is that TWF players feel like they deserve more DPS because of these heavy investments. This shouldn't be the case in the first place. Just remove those absurb penalties and bring THF and TWF closer in requirements. This way, dps can be balanced without ppl feeling shafted on requirements.

5 - Well, I agree there partly. The problem is forcing twitching for single target DPS seems like a horrible bandaid to trying to max 2h dps. I also think damage should be compensated if twitch is removed. Or... just make every hit proc a glancing blow if you have GTWF, that way there is no difference in twitch or not, and it would possibly bring the dps up to twf.

7 - Scythe would definately be cool :) But it would be nice to distribute more "good" weapons and make use of existing weaps that are weak.

[~Tago_Bane]

This is just flat out incorrect.
If you're going to rant, having your facts straight would really help.

if I'm wrong plz correct me don't just say I'm wrong.

[IronClan]

The following qualify as basic DPS, which TWF loses out on strongly and thus is not a valid argument as they are already being considered:

Khopesh.
Double bursts.
Double force.
Double greensteel enchantments.

Wait So are you saying that someone who wields a holy burst Great Axe and gets 2d6 holy and and 4d6 burst on a crit, is on a level playing field with someone wielding Khops who's getting 2d6 Holy in his main hand, 2d6 holy in his off hand, and 4d6 burst in his main and 4d6 burst in his off hand?

Or are you saying a 20th level Barb raged with 70 STR wielding a ESoS is outdoing a GS kopesh TWF? Because honestly I could give a rats behind about a small percentage comparison like that. The game can't be balanced for the minority. That's where other MMO's went wrong and why they have such a ridiculous never ending cycle of nerfs in those games.



The following no longer exist at all:

Double assassinate.

Maybe I mis read it, but they mentioned that offhand special attacks will go to the next target in the Que and so they wont need to do a separate CD check if the primary target dies on the main hand... It's big thread so I may have misunderstood that part, or maybe it doesn't apply to assassinate. *shrug* I'm probably wrong here but whatever.



The following have been nerfed into complete and utter uselessness:

Weighted auto stun (for the DC boost you only need one, thus even if you used one it's irrelevant to TWF).

Worked fine last time I used them... IMO Your definition of useless seems to be anything that isn't "uber" If I swing a good prefix weighted in one hand and a DPS weapon in the other am I not getting a tactical advantage that THF doesn't get (twice the possible weapon effects without switching weapons)?



The following is only relevant at lower levels:

Double paralyzers.
Double stat damagers.

And who cares about lower levels right? In a game that is so clearly designed around 20th level content :rolleyes:



Meanwhile you can go THF and save 3 feats, 8 build points, and half plat/larges on weapons.

3 feats... Being realistic most who are focusing on THF are taking the 3 THF feats, and the same can be said for most who focus on TWF taking the 3 TWF feats... Oversized being MAYBE one more feat burden for TWF if your build doesn't have enough STR to hit (or as I hear it needed in Epics). Sure a THF can take no feats and hit targets more with higher base damage than a TWF with no feats, but lets not pretend either style is LIKELY to skip the three feats.

Not sure about 8 build points, I like having a reflex save though, so maybe that's just me... I have a Pali that's min maxed with Dex as a dump stat, and it's a THF build so I guess I have to agree it's between 6 (+2 tome) and 8... but that's a Pali which will end up with 16 base Charisma and a +6 item giving his reflex save a considerable boost... I wouldn't (personally) enjoy playing much of anything else with a dumped Dex.

Oh BTW you never answered why you have your MyDDO set to private when you were here giving Calebro grief for the same thing?

[Jarlow]

My friend came back from the test server and was over 10% slower on attack and no mention of server lag when the devs say its server lag a lie. So in my opinion its a big fat lie. Then they said its a level balance from what they wont answer so Warner Bros is just buying out with no regard to the people that pay for the game. For if its balance thats a bar scene not combat or a quest objective so heres my opinion.

Devs seem to be lying about the lag and that the game seems too be put on the back burner for the harry potter game but if your not going to tell the people that paid good money to play you should at least tell them the game is going to end do too age.

[Jarlow]

dont pee on me and say its raining just say they truth

[FluffyCalico]

Devs seem to be lying about the lag and that the game seems too be put on the back burner for the harry potter game.

Dude DDO went on the back burner 4 months before it launched...due to LOTR. It has never moved off the back burner.

[Jarlow]

that game sucked

[Jarlow]

the breed of the game is different the game is open not controlled

[Jarlow]

sry i came so late but we need an open game i would like it to be this one aka perfectworldnot going back dont let money b a factor please

[Jarlow]

why do i feal so alone in wanting a game thats true will keep looking if it changes im sad

[Elixxer]

I think the clear split of people supporting and against this change is a good indication you are on the right track.

In my book, anything that makes the different styles of combat more equal is a good thing. I think you'll make some people's heads explode because for their world to make sense there needs to be one clear and absolute best so they can be "teh Uberz".


I look forward to trying this out.

Bravo.

Have you ever fought a TWF person IRL? From what you wrote I guess not, they get way more attacks then a THF person does, better fake outs to get even more attacks in, and with DDO having most players play TWF toons everyone has been bred to be able to TWF where as real life not many are good at TWF (such as myself).

and did I hear THF gets a chance of double strike too? Maybe I just miss read... I don't need to see my toon nerfed and see THF get more attacks.

[Elixxer]

i agree with him.

I also agree! by the way can someone tell me what the hell DPS lag is? ._.

[Elixxer]

You are correct, double strike at this time does not apply to ranged or thrown attacks. We are planning on investigating various improvements to ranged combat in a future update.




This means AA are gonna get some love?

[Grimtooth333]

False. Both Rangers and non Rangers are down three feats... yes they get the TWF line for free, but since they have to take Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack they really aren't any better off.

Actually Rangers are worse off because Tempest 3 requires a fourth feat.
Except those 3 feats are not required for the two weapon fighting line or for a TWF Ranger, those feats are only required for the Tempest PRC and they really have nothing to do with the points I was making.

Bottom line is regardless of how you acquire them the TWF line needs to be even across the board... and 40/60/80 offhand is a joke. Something like 60/80/100 for offhand chance is fairer to all classes here, Rangers as well.

[Drekisen]

Well I was finally able to unlock my pure 20 wind monk.....went and tried out Acid Wit as I can't try and of the P2p STUFF YET.

All I have to say is I barely noticed a difference in combat at all...the DS was procc'ing consistanlty and I was still landing what seemed like just as many off hand attacks.......I am still having just as much fun, and I like the new spell casting sounds and animations.

I also tested my pure 20 Kensei GA user and noticed very little difference to THF.....

all in all I would have to say that for pure class builds anyways, this nerf is hardly a nerf.

[Jarlow]

every one must have missed the point this will be the first of many nerfs as they dont want this old game anymore on the bought out servers but if u cant handle the bar seen stay out of it but thts not the point dill holes> its the open game we are going to loose <whats next>

[Jarlow]

me and my bro did the test and when he got back off the test server i killed him almost every time he went to erease the down load he was un abble to log back on kiss my arss u liers

[mediocresurgeon]

Since Greater Two-Handed Fighting no longer does anything, I want 3 lvl20 respect shards for each of my THFers so that they can spend their 3 feats on something else.

The whole point of taking the Two-handed Fighting feat line was to eventually be able to get glancing blows while moving. Now, you can still take the Greater Two-Handed Fighting but it literally does nothing for your characters. (But we still have to fight moving targets... like kobolds, orges, and trolls, who I doubt have the same Glancing Blow nerf.)

[Jarlow]

if they allow u to change feats they must admit they killed ur toon

[Jarlow]

the waisted dex more than sucks

[Arctigis]

Well I thnk it's a rather narrow minded post based on an opinion that it's ven feasible to "FIX" the code or that the code was even poorly done at the time it was done. I've also come to form my own opinion that it's very liekly the changes being implemented are neccesary to some extent , because they've hit a wall as to how far they can go wit some of the game mechanics, and that has left them no way to expand the game moving forwrad.


You may be right but there is no more or less evidence to support this POV.

It's interesting in that you seem to have taken a different context out of Tasebro's post than I did. I interpreted
the root of Tasebro's dissatisfaction to acquiring shop content to facilitate the construction of a 'speed' build
(I'm assuming Tempest I + fighter speed boosts or similar here). The feeling is that these purchases (with real $$)
have been invalidated by these planned changes. I sympathise with this POV somewhat as, like I said, I just
finished a Monster build. To build an effective 'Monster classic', as a premium player, you'd need:

WF
Monk
32 point builds
+2 Dex for GTWF (assuming a starting Dex of 15)

That's a big outlay in real $$. Now, I'm not saying that this is a completely valid POV - you still have those
purchased items and they still have the same utility as they did when purchased. However, I think it's right
to expect some anger from players who purchased these items for a specific purpose which they now feel is
invalid.

[zealous]

Well, zealous, here is some more irrelevant conjecture for you to dismiss:

Just want ya to take a breather and think about things objectively...



Specifically, my current main multiclass DPS toon can self-heal, as well as effectively tank AND deal adequate TWF DPS resulting from qualifying for warforged, kensei (unarmed) with monk sauce and a side of UMD (rogue).
Come nerfdate 5 (good one squelch) I am going to loose all the nice stacked speed boosts I now have access to (arrived at via multi-class build "speed" synergies, which ARE going away), and therefore a good chunk of practical DPS output potential (looks to me to be about 30-35% drop), therefore turning what is an effective sub-optimal "speed" build, into just another broken liability, therefore the bulk of that toons' current usefulness TO ME is going to vanish.

Ease off on the hyperbole, your build doesn't have ranger levels so will lose less than 10% dps. If you have monk levels for wind stance, the relative value of windstance will be greater come U5 than it is now. Haste boost is unchanged but with less haste stacking, relative gain is increased.



Furthermore, your dismissals miss the key point, I PAID for that specific utility on THAT toon, not for your sense of 'game balance', which is frankly neither needed, nor wanted

You paid for access to races/classes/modules in turbines game, subject to changes.
You still have access to those races/classes/modules in turbines game, subject to changes.



(...fact being I don't give a flip about 'game balance'; if i did, I would not invest my time building such toons, I would just play WoW now wouldn't I?).

This does indeed seem to be the problem. The point of game balance is that the game wouldn't be fun without it.



What I do want is the return on the resouces I invested in my toon--which I am currently getting--no more, no less. Since I am loosing all my stacked speed boosts, taking a significant hit on my DPS output with nothing to compensate that loss then that is not "game balance", its just a nerf that invalidates what is currently a viable build.
But thing is dude, viability is not based on how powerful the build is compared to the content, it's based on how powerful the build is compared to other builds.

How powerful builds are compared to the content is how difficult/easy the game is.
....

I don't know your exact class split so can't really evaluate how the change affects you, it's less then you think though.

Let's take a educated guess as to your split and try to make a some educating example of why nerfs are sometimes needed.

A.Let's say we add a class that's in every way like the fighter but gets +20damage attack per level and full divine and arcane spell casting, oh, and full bard songs, 20 skillpoints per level and access to all skills ofc. Taking 20 levels of that class would be better than any combination of 20 levels of other classes so taking levels of any other class would be pointless.
Due to there effectively over time, as people leveled the supah class, wouldn't be any other builds, there would be less variety in group compositions. There would be less variety in play and the game would likely become duller, less fun.

If we then "nerfed that class into oblivion" by halving the damage add, forcing you to choose between full divine or full arcane casting as well as halving skillpoints. That class would still be better than alternatives. It'd still be in need of massive nurfage.

B.
Hasteboost IV states that it adds 30% attack speed. Since attack speed increases in DDO decreases the time required for one animation you might think that the number of attacks would increase by 1/0.7-1~43% with haste boost IV going. You would be wrong though.

Each animation consists of "two parts" the animation itself and a static overhead, haste effects only increase the speed of the first part. This is made even more convoluted by different fighting styles having different overheads.

Thus the increase due to haste boost IV would be:


Armed Unarmed
Unhasted: 1,35 1,32
Hasted: 1,34 1,305
pre U5 madstoned: 1,336 1,30
pre U5 madstoned+windII: 1,33 1,296

Now one could certainly go on a nerd rage rampage about haste boost only giving about 90% of the boost it should. That would however be absolutely silly seeing as haste boost is massively overpowered (imo), incidently giving as much increase as the entire frenzied berserker prestige line (while boosted).

Now currently that's kinda ok since rogues/fighters are fairly balanced with other classes. However, the existance of haste boost severly limits the design space for interesting dps boosting feats and enhancements for fighters/rogues. e.g. rogue PrCs hardly add any dps at all, kensai don't provide much dps. It also skews multiclassing to preferentially include fighter/rogue levels since haste boost is aquired in early levels.

C. How your build is affected.
Your build is very likely buffed compared to other 2wf.
* You have haste boost, haste boots becomes relatively better in U5
* You have wind stance, double strike is relatively better than alacricity bonus
Assuming hasteboost IV+qd and windII:


Pre-U5 APS Armed Unarmed
unboosted hasted: 1.759 1.924
boosted hasted+windII: 2.150 2.406

unboosted madstone: 1.843 2.025
boosted madstone+windII: 2.245 2.525

unarmed boosted madstone+windII/armed unboosted hasted
2.406/1.759=1.368

unarmed boosted madstone+windII/armed unboosted madstone
2.525/1.843=1.370

---------------------------------------------------------------------

U5 APS Armed Unarmed
boost+windII+haste: 2.175 2.424

unarmed boosted hasted+windII/armed unboosted hasted
2.424/1.759=1.378

Despite unarmed being more affected by the reduction to madstone haste effect, your build is very likely nerfed relatively less than others. Thus the viability of your build has likely increased.

Until they bring haste boost in line >;-)

tl;dr I don't quite get what you're griping about since your build likely got buffed

[zealous]

Since Greater Two-Handed Fighting no longer does anything, I want 3 lvl20 respect shards for each of my THFers so that they can spend their 3 feats on something else.

The whole point of taking the Two-handed Fighting feat line was to eventually be able to get glancing blows while moving. Now, you can still take the Greater Two-Handed Fighting but it literally does nothing for your characters. (But we still have to fight moving targets... like kobolds, orges, and trolls, who I doubt have the same Glancing Blow nerf.)
It still does what it appears to be designed to do, increase AoE damage.

Which incidently seems what 2H is designed to do, do damage to multiple foes.

If you wan't to complain about relative unviability of 2H, detail that the increase in AoE damage generally isn't sufficient even when there are multiple foes. You could also go into detail that AoE damage is relatively unimportant when dps is important, i.e. against raid bosses.

[BlackSteel]

It still does what it appears to be designed to do, increase AoE damage.

Which incidently seems what 2H is designed to do, do damage to multiple foes.

If you wan't to complain about relative unviability of 2H, detail that the increase in AoE damage generally isn't sufficient even when there are multiple foes. You could also go into detail that AoE damage is relatively unimportant when dps is important, i.e. against raid bosses.

GTHF specifically states that it grants glancing blows on the move. Thats the entire point. For alot of people the chain is worthless until you pick this feat up. (not to mention glancing blows do petty damage up till that lvl range anyway)

3 shards dont really work out too well, as you cant pick up another chain with them b/c you have to remove them in order. a lesser wood would be more appropriate.

[Aesop]

It still does what it appears to be designed to do, increase AoE damage.

Which incidently seems what 2H is designed to do, do damage to multiple foes.

If you wan't to complain about relative unviability of 2H, detail that the increase in AoE damage generally isn't sufficient even when there are multiple foes. You could also go into detail that AoE damage is relatively unimportant when dps is important, i.e. against raid bosses.

So if that's the problem... perhaps THF needs 2 "modes"

The First applies Glancing Blows and affects multiple mobs spreading the damage out doing more to more critters.

The Second focuses strongly on a single target. No Glancing Blows, but increased damage vs the single target. Would do less damage then the First would over all but the damage it does would be concentrated on the one opponent being a relative gain against the single target.

I know its unlikely to happen but that would be an interesting way to do it

Aesop

[Pyromaniac]

dont pee on me and say its raining just say they truth

They're saying its raining out...

[Logic]

GTHF specifically states that it grants glancing blows on the move. Thats the entire point. For alot of people the chain is worthless until you pick this feat up. (not to mention glancing blows do petty damage up till that lvl range anyway)

This is absolutely what I was thinking. If the changes go live I will drop the entire THF chain on my character. Three feats that give no extra damage when moving... I don't understand it.

[Stonen]

It seems to me that the 5% double strike bonus for tempest III is too low. STWF now gives much more dps increase than this. Tempest III should give a significant bonus and be worth taking 6 more levels of ranger.

[Aesop]

It seems to me that the 5% double strike bonus for tempest III is too low. STWF now gives much more dps increase than this. Tempest III should give a significant bonus and be worth taking 6 more levels of ranger.

read back about 50 pages Eladrin stated that we convinced him tha tSTWF was a bad idea and it would go "live"...

Unless he changed his mind again


Though I think you may be right about TIII not being good enough


Aesop

[XenonTempest]

You guys know something?
You're all forgetting one, big, major issue when comparing the 4 different speed boosts.
They're all given out at DIFFERENT levels.

Sure, if fighter alacrity, paladin zeal, and monk grandmaster stance were all level 12, i'm fine and dandy...
BUT....

(Numbers are Mainhand/Offhand)
Tempest II - 100/100 - LEVEL 12(TWELVE)
Paladin Zeal - 110/80 - LEVEL 14(FOURTEEN)
Monk Grandmaster - 110/80 - LEVEL 18(EIGHTEEN)
Fighter Alacrity - 110/80 - LEVEL 20(TWENTY)

Someone notice the level differences yet? Hello?

If you're going for multiclassing, and still want to retain your mainclass's speedboost...
Levels capable of being splashed out - Tempest: 8, Paladin: 6, Monk: 2 (although most people go pure monk anyway), annnnnnd.... Fighter: 0. Zero. Naught.

Yeah i'm all fine and dandy with balance among the classes and whatnot, but...personally I feel fighter's getting the shaft.

Without STWF, it completely limits what you can do with fighter mainclassing without losing out on your dps...Its either pure, or just roll an Ubiquitous 12F/6R/2R or M.......Gee, thanks.

[Visty]

Without STWF, it completely limits what you can do with fighter mainclassing without losing out on your dps...Its either pure, or just roll an Ubiquitous 12F/6R/2R or M.......Gee, thanks.

you mean just like it is now already?

[Aaxeyu]

Yeah i'm all fine and dandy with balance among the classes and whatnot, but...personally I feel fighter's getting the shaft.

Without STWF, it completely limits what you can do with fighter mainclassing without losing out on your dps...Its either pure, or just roll an Ubiquitous 12F/6R/2R or M.......Gee, thanks.

Since the capstone is nerfed, multiclassing fighter is somewhat more viable than before. Only problem is that tempest I also have been nerfed.
It has made 18 fighter / 2 X builds more viable atleast.

[XenonTempest]

you mean just like it is now already?

Not really, there's still _some_ 18/2s out there

[XenonTempest]

Since the capstone is nerfed, multiclassing fighter is somewhat more viable than before. Only problem is that tempest I also have been nerfed.
It has made 18 fighter / 2 X builds more viable atleast.


I don't know...you're still missing out on your 10% DoubleStrike compared to 18/2 paladins, monks, and tempests's 105/100

[Visty]

Not really, there's still _some_ 18/2s out there

and there will be some in the future

[Aaxeyu]

I don't know...you're still missing out on your 10% DoubleStrike compared to 18/2 paladins, monks, and tempests's 105/100

10% double strike is not that good.

Rangers were behind in DPS before the nerf, now they are just sad. They were hit hardess, by far.

[SquelchHU]

Wait So are you saying that someone who wields a holy burst Great Axe and gets 2d6 holy and and 4d6 burst on a crit, is on a level playing field with someone wielding Khops who's getting 2d6 Holy in his main hand, 2d6 holy in his off hand, and 4d6 burst in his main and 4d6 burst in his off hand?

Or are you saying a 20th level Barb raged with 70 STR wielding a ESoS is outdoing a GS kopesh TWF? Because honestly I could give a rats behind about a small percentage comparison like that. The game can't be balanced for the minority. That's where other MMO's went wrong and why they have such a ridiculous never ending cycle of nerfs in those games.

Your original argument was that TWF and THF did the same DPS. That means that either they did so after counting abilities (and TWF needs kickers to keep up), they did so before counting abilities (and the kickers make it pull ahead) or you are wrong. Choose one.


Maybe I mis read it, but they mentioned that offhand special attacks will go to the next target in the Que and so they wont need to do a separate CD check if the primary target dies on the main hand... It's big thread so I may have misunderstood that part, or maybe it doesn't apply to assassinate. *shrug* I'm probably wrong here but whatever.

Part of their streamlining is that offhand attacks go towards the same target. At best it could mean a single target has to save twice, but that's still not a double assassinate.


Worked fine last time I used them... IMO Your definition of useless seems to be anything that isn't "uber" If I swing a good prefix weighted in one hand and a DPS weapon in the other am I not getting a tactical advantage that THF doesn't get (twice the possible weapon effects without switching weapons)?

When weighted was 5% chance of auto stun, it had a valid use that began and ended with epic (anywhere else, mob HP is too low to care).

Now it's a 3% chance to DC 33 save or stun. Which means it has a 5% of 3% chance of working. Yes, something that only has a 3:2,000 chance to do anything at all is indeed quite useless.

I'm going to assume you were not aware that weighted is now complete and utter garbage, and that you were not actually arguing that a 0.15% chance of relevance is a point in favor of anything at any time.


And who cares about lower levels right? In a game that is so clearly designed around 20th level content :rolleyes:

I was actually being overly generous here.

Paralyzers are only good in Gianthold. In lower level areas you either can't use them at all, or the enemies actually have higher will saves due to not being grunt types. In higher level areas they'll save on a 2.

Even then, on higher difficulties of GH you'll encounter the same problem as you would on higher level quests.

So we're talking GH normal here... just attack them about 5 times, instead of greatly lowering your damage output to paralyze them. If you really must crowd control them then let a caster do it, or use stunning blow, or use trip. All of which will be more likely to land, particularly on higher difficulties where you might actually need it.

Been there, done that.

Got a pair of paralyzers for my Ranger way back when I was leveling her. It quickly became apparent I was better off just killing the **** mobs. Even in situations where crowd control would have actually been useful, the gimp DPS of paralyzers made it a bad idea anyways.

Got some for my Monk. Never used em. Even once. I was better off just killing the **** mobs, throwing the odd stun on casters.

I passed the paralyzers my Ranger was using to my Bard. I don't think he's ever put them on. DPS is better, and if I need crowd control Fascinate is better anyways.

In short, paralyzers = fail. But lower levels are the only place they can even try and be useful. Oh and did I mention Heroic Surge is in Nerfdate 5? Because it totally is.

As for stat damage, same logic as paralyzers except that the mob needs to have even higher HP to justify it... except that nearly every mob with enough HP to qualify is either immune/highly resistant to stat damage, or is NOT immune to something better... like instant death. Stat damagers were really only worthwhile during the WoP era.


3 feats... Being realistic most who are focusing on THF are taking the 3 THF feats, and the same can be said for most who focus on TWF taking the 3 TWF feats... Oversized being MAYBE one more feat burden for TWF if your build doesn't have enough STR to hit (or as I hear it needed in Epics). Sure a THF can take no feats and hit targets more with higher base damage than a TWF with no feats, but lets not pretend either style is LIKELY to skip the three feats.

Perhaps not before. Now when you can do about the same thing by skipping the feats and twitching? Might as well skip the THF feat line. Oversized is mandatory for Rangers (Tempest 3) but most others will likely skip it.


Not sure about 8 build points, I like having a reflex save though, so maybe that's just me... I have a Pali that's min maxed with Dex as a dump stat, and it's a THF build so I guess I have to agree it's between 6 (+2 tome) and 8... but that's a Pali which will end up with 16 base Charisma and a +6 item giving his reflex save a considerable boost... I wouldn't (personally) enjoy playing much of anything else with a dumped Dex.

It's the difference between 15 dex and a +2 tome and 8 dex and a +2 tome. +3 Reflex saves. That's it. One thing characters do not have trouble getting up to par is their saving throws.


Oh BTW you never answered why you have your MyDDO set to private when you were here giving Calebro grief for the same thing?

...

1: That was done with over 50 pages ago. Get with the program.
2: You never mentioned it until now, or if you did I didn't see it.
3: Calebro was questioned about MYDDO because it was clear from the way he was talking he had no idea what he was talking about and MYDDO would prove that he did in fact have one or more TWF characters. (and contrary to what some whiners said, the point wasn't to point and laugh at his characters but simply to prove they existed) As I am not talking in such a way that suggests a lack of experience with dual wielding, your argument is invalid. As for who I am, most of the good players of Argo know, or can find out easily. I don't really care if you know or not. Have fun stalking me I guess. :D

But I'm not feeding the trolls about that.


Except those 3 feats are not required for the two weapon fighting line or for a TWF Ranger, those feats are only required for the Tempest PRC and they really have nothing to do with the points I was making.

Bottom line is regardless of how you acquire them the TWF line needs to be even across the board... and 40/60/80 offhand is a joke. Something like 60/80/100 for offhand chance is fairer to all classes here, Rangers as well.

There are TWF Rangers that aren't Tempests?

...Yes I know there will be post Nerfdate 5, when Tempest no longer justifies its cost. But I mean in the present tense everyone loses 3 feats.

[Ebondevil]

Part of their streamlining is that offhand attacks go towards the same target. At best it could mean a single target has to save twice, but that's still not a double assassinate.

The way I understood it was that multiple mobs could be picked up in the collision detection from the main-hand. If the main-hand performed a successful assassinate or killed the primary target then the off-hand attack would go to the next target that the collision detection from the main-hand found, which would then potentially allow an assassinate on the off-hand.

[IronClan]

Your original argument was that TWF and THF did the same DPS. That means that either they did so after counting abilities (and TWF needs kickers to keep up), they did so before counting abilities (and the kickers make it pull ahead) or you are wrong. Choose one.

Um those are my choices eh? What are my choices if you are totally wrong and I said nothing at all about TWF and THF being "the same DPS"... (honestly no clue where you pulled that from).

As far as I can tell you are the only one here claiming that for basic DPS all of those factors are "equal" between THF and TWF...



Part of their streamlining is that offhand attacks go towards the same target. At best it could mean a single target has to save twice, but that's still not a double assassinate.

As far as I can tell if the main mob fails its save and dies then the next mob in the "Que" (subject to an off hand attack) will also have to make it's save. Like I said I am probably wrong about that, but that's how I read it, and I don't care enough to actually backtrack and check on this point. It should work exactly the same way a double smite will under the same circumstance, either is hits the same mob twice or the first mob dies and the next in the Que is subject to the offhand smite/assasinate...

Also unless we assume like you do that all Mobs fail their save, a second chance from the offhand for an assassinate is still a very useful perk to TWF that THF doesn't get. It doesn't really matter to a THF that it's "less cool" post nerf...



When weighted was 5% chance of auto stun, it had a valid use that began and ended with epic (anywhere else, mob HP is too low to care).

Good lord you play in a narrowly focused min maxed version of DDO :) Level 20 grinding for optimal gear and epics are the only thing that matters land...

I like the improved SB DC, in addition to the auto stun as you put it every couple hundred swings... I wasn't aware that the auto-stun part was so nerfed from it's description, but I'm not surprised, uber-min/maxers tend to get things like that for their efforts.



Oversized is mandatory for Rangers (Tempest 3) but most others will likely skip it.

How so? Under what circumstances? You mean like when one can't live with the shame and ignomy of using a light off hand weapon? Or the -2 to hit is worse for Rangers than anyone else in the game who rarely have a hard time hitting mobs except in end game high difficulty and Epic content?



3: Calebro was questioned about MYDDO because it was clear from the way he was talking he had no idea what he was talking about and MYDDO would prove that he did in fact have one or more TWF characters. (and contrary to what some whiners said, the point wasn't to point and laugh at his characters but simply to prove they existed) As I am not talking in such a way that suggests a lack of experience with dual wielding, your argument is invalid. As for who I am, most of the good players of Argo know, or can find out easily. I don't really care if you know or not. Have fun stalking me I guess. :D


Wow interesting things going on there, arrogant suppositions, some fun grandeur stuff, and the assumption that you're (self) important enough to stalk LOL... I guess I shouldn't be surprised that someone who can still couch everything in such absolute, black/white, Uber/gimp terms is also going to think a simple question is "stalking".

FWIW it was an honest question I was just trying to figure out if you were someone who practiced what they preached or not... But don't worry I am not about to clutter the thread with juvenile challenges to reveal your characters, not my style, and I'm sure everyone can arrive at their own conclusions.



...Yes I know there will be post Nerfdate 5, when Tempest no longer justifies its cost. But I mean in the present tense everyone loses 3 feats.

Tempest gets hit the hardest, I agree... I'll still roll or play the one I'm leveling (of course I'm not wrapping my enjoyment of the entire game in optimizing a few percentile of DPS).

I'm not sure what everyone is going to gravitate to away from tempest when they want top TWF DPS along with the tactical and magic/enchantment advantages of wielding two weapons with more off hand attacks than any other class and double strikes.. Spell casting; self healing; self buffing. Free included ranged combat (to be polished) that's better than any other class that doesn't specialize in it. Full BAB, and higher base skill points than any other Melee, and more class skills than most classes short of Roque. Then there's the free DPS boosts that are better than many 6 AP enhancement lines (like Dwarven Axe Damage) so long as you're fighting Undead, Elementals, Outsiders and/or Giants or whatever you select for favored enemy... And some other stuff...

But hey I get it.. those things are "useless" in min/max land and are easily given up for a couple percent of DPS...

[SquelchHU]

Um those are my choices eh? What are my choices if you are totally wrong and I said nothing at all about TWF and THF being "the same DPS"... (honestly no clue where you pulled that from).

As far as I can tell you are the only one here claiming that for basic DPS all of those factors are "equal" between THF and TWF...

It was your comment in an earlier thread about the same thing.


As far as I can tell if the main mob fails its save and dies then the next mob in the "Que" (subject to an off hand attack) will also have to make it's save. Like I said I am probably wrong about that, but that's how I read it, and I don't care enough to actually backtrack and check on this point. It should work exactly the same way a double smite will under the same circumstance, either is hits the same mob twice or the first mob dies and the next in the Que is subject to the offhand smite/assasinate...

Also unless we assume like you do that all Mobs fail their save, a second chance from the offhand for an assassinate is still a very useful perk to TWF that THF doesn't get. It doesn't really matter to a THF that it's "less cool" post nerf...

Assassinate DC = 10 + Rogue level + Int mod unless I missed something. It's actually safer to assume they'll pass the save, since without gimping out your character you're looking at a max of mid 30s DC.

In any case, double assassinate is largely a novelty feature since anything you care about is immune or at least will save 95%.


Good lord you play in a narrowly focused min maxed version of DDO :) Level 20 grinding for optimal gear and epics are the only thing that matters land...

I like the improved SB DC, in addition to the auto stun as you put it every couple hundred swings... I wasn't aware that the auto-stun part was so nerfed from it's description, but I'm not surprised, uber-min/maxers tend to get things like that for their efforts.

What game are you playing? Because it's not DDO, that's been a narrowly focused min max game from the start. Welcome to MMOs by the way. So glad you could join us.

And stunning blow DCs aren't any better. Before you could use weighted 5 for +10 DC, and after you still can... but this has no bearing on THF vs TWF. And it's actually rare for people to use it for the DC boost. Fighters and Barbarians can stun the mob just fine without the +10. Most other classes don't have room for the feat, so they use weighted 5 for the auto stun since auto crit is the only way to contribute in epics. And now they can't do that. 1:20 dropped to 3:2,000.


How so? Under what circumstances? You mean like when one can't live with the shame and ignomy of using a light off hand weapon? Or the -2 to hit is worse for Rangers than anyone else in the game who rarely have a hard time hitting mobs except in end game high difficulty and Epic content?

You fail at reading comprehension forever.


Oversized is mandatory for Rangers >(Tempest 3)< but most others will likely skip it.


Ranger Tempest III

* Prerequisites: Ranger level 18, Tempest II, and any one of: Two Weapon Blocking, Two Weapon Defense, >Oversized Two Weapon Fighting<, or Lightning Reflexes.
* Cost: 2 Action Points
* Benefit: Your skill with two weapons is unequaled - your training has turned you into a whirling tempest of steel, granting a 10% competence bonus to dual wield attack speed, a +4 shield bonus to armor class when two weapon fighting, your penalty to hit has been reduced by 2, and you have additional attacks when two weapon fighting.

As you are forced to take a junk feat, and OTWF is made of a little less fail than the others...


Oversized is mandatory for Rangers >(Tempest 3)< but most others will likely skip it.

Hi Welcome

(Oh and Rangers actually do have relatively low to hit for melee classes since they don't get all the Strength boosts and such. But that's not the point.)

Skipping past trolling remarks.

Point is, everything that made TWF good is being oblivated. Useful proc effects, damage from offhand swings, all of it. I know someone is going to show up and say THF is being screwed too. Yes I know that, do you expect me to take comfort in it? NO. I won't. I don't want TWF gimped out, and I don't want THF gimped out either. I don't want anyone gimped out. If I thought it possible to salvage sword and board I wouldn't want it gimped out either, but I know that at least is impossible.

Nerf wars destroy games. Been there, done that, didn't even get a lousy T shirt.

I know someone's going to respond to that by referencing some other MMO. Thing is, most other MMOs don't invalidate whole classes. Skills, or even skill trees perhaps, but entire classes? No, you pay some in game gold and you walk away, at worst... and often, they give it to you for free. The ones that do forget they're supposed to keep all classes valid in one way or another start losing players very rapidly. SWG NGE anyone?

Consider for a moment the WoP nerf. This gimped out all dex based TWFers. The str based ones were still functional, and the THFers also were.

Consider the reaction it got despite invalidating a much smaller subset of the population.

Now consider that TWF + THF = > 99% of all melee. Which is how many classes? 7 out of 11?

People complain there's too much doomsaying here.

I say there's not enough.

DOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111 111111111111111111111

:D