Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Persnoody]

The most common cause of lag is people game setting being to high, you can turn off all lighting and shadows and your game will improve allot (unless u have a beast machine), the game still looks great if your just playing with high detail. I play a lvl 20 wind monk that rarely misses (finness with 40 dex soon to be 42), I have all my setting at lowest except detail and draw distance... I'm playing on a computer from 2003 and I'm running the game on average at 45 fps while moving around in a public area.. in the shroud (where the lag happens allot) I don't go below 15 fps with one of thees "laggers"... I mean come on, I'm playing on a crappy dell from 03 with the only upgrades being 2 gigs of ram and a decent gfx card...

Here is a hint, allot of your in-game laggers are using laptops, you wouldn't believe the amount of people playing on laptops, and the majority aren't using machines built for games, this isn't a one way thing, to play a game you first need the hardware.

[pasterqb]

So a "Fighter" is a worse melee fighter than a "Ranger"?

Not gonna lie this is the most redundant thing i have seen in a long time.

[Chai]

The most common cause of lag is people game setting being to high, you can turn off all lighting and shadows and your game will improve allot (unless u have a beast machine), the game still looks great if your just playing with high detail. I play a lvl 20 wind monk that rarely misses (finness with 40 dex soon to be 42), I have all my setting at lowest except detail and draw distance... I'm playing on a computer from 2003 and I'm running the game on average at 45 fps while moving around in a public area.. in the shroud (where the lag happens allot) I don't go below 15 fps with one of thees "laggers"... I mean come on, I'm playing on a crappy dell from 03 with the only upgrades being 2 gigs of ram and a decent gfx card...

Here is a hint, allot of your in-game laggers are using laptops, you wouldn't believe the amount of people playing on laptops, and the majority aren't using machines built for games, this isn't a one way thing, to play a game you first need the hardware.

If this is the case then why do we all get the same level of lag at the same times on vastly different systems and only in the same raids?

[hydra_ex]

The most common cause of lag is people game setting being to high, you can turn off all lighting and shadows and your game will improve allot (unless u have a beast machine), the game still looks great if your just playing with high detail. I play a lvl 20 wind monk that rarely misses (finness with 40 dex soon to be 42), I have all my setting at lowest except detail and draw distance... I'm playing on a computer from 2003 and I'm running the game on average at 45 fps while moving around in a public area.. in the shroud (where the lag happens allot) I don't go below 15 fps with one of thees "laggers"... I mean come on, I'm playing on a crappy dell from 03 with the only upgrades being 2 gigs of ram and a decent gfx card...

Here is a hint, a lot of your in-game laggers are using laptops, you wouldn't believe the amount of people playing on laptops, and the majority aren't using machines built for games, this isn't a one way thing, to play a game you first need the hardware.

DPS lag is not affected (much) by your computer. It affects me pretty much equally whether I'm playing on my gaming computer or on my laptop.

The hardware required would be an insane connection which cost an arm and a leg and/or are not available to the general public. Its all game engine/code and connection, and it takes a really exceptional connection, and even then, its still Turbine's engine, mainly.

[Neko-kun]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.


This seems like the best option.

Changing the entire system, would make people rage, cause builds to potentially be invalid, and the possibility of someone's 1AM coding causing major game screwups.

Altering the strategy of anything lag-heavy would probably be the best way to go. As I can see it, many builds that involve heavy multiclassing would be hurt by this. Yes, it would nerf the "super-uber-maximum-DPS" classes, but it would also make some of the more creative ones implode.

And this is DDO. Dungeons and Dragons. Strategy has ALWAYS been a part of the game (it's the spawn of Chainmail,) so adding tactics instead of just modifying the way people stand there and swing weapons would be a loved idea.

[vVAnjilaVv]

DPS lag is not affected (much) by your computer. It affects me pretty much equally whether I'm playing on my gaming computer or on my laptop.

The hardware required would be an insane connection which cost an arm and a leg and/or are not available to the general public. Its all game engine/code and connection, and it takes a really exceptional connection, and even then, its still Turbine's engine, mainly.

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

[Boromirs]

BTW, if you guys are thinking about adding STWF you have to get rid of the 19 dex req or it'll just be a pointless feat for all (although it pretty much is except for possibly fighters due to extra feats).

[hydra_ex]

So a "Fighter" is a worse melee fighter than a "Ranger"?

Not gonna lie this is the most redundant thing i have seen in a long time.

More like this type of ranger. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_ranger)

Rangers and ranged combat have nothing really to do with one another (in terms of name), beyond a common root of the word "range." In one instance, it means patrol, in another, it means attack from a distance. Thus, ranger = patrol-er, whereas archer = ranged combat.

[Cashiry]

So I thought as a joke to our fearful guild leader and after reading all of these possible proposed changes I would create a new character.

What do you think?

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z103/Towrn/ScreenShot00040.jpg

:D

lol, I'm sure Dmgpersec will love that if you actually level him...

[hydra_ex]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

Not so much hardware as the code itself. However, editing such an integral part of DPS calculation so late into the development of the game is probably very difficult.

Ideally that's what they should do, but at that point, they might as well come out with DDO2.

Its the sad truth :(

[Seikojin]

...Snip...
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

That is much better. It scales better as you progress feat or level wise, and rebalances everything so that most characters dedicated to twf will be the same in the long run.

I wish I was on the test server to try it out :)

[Persnoody]

Well then I must be lucky cause I rarely lag. What I'm saying is coming from personal experience, so you can't expect me to know your experiences.

[vVAnjilaVv]

. As I can see it, many builds that involve heavy multiclassing would be hurt by this.

Yeah...thus the new +5 heart of wood experiment (hint, hint) that is "limited time only" (pfft yeah right).

If inducing A into the game will increase the selling of B then why not right?

But I suppose I just have my tinfoil hat on too tight and deserve more neg rep for not being naive.

[Boromirs]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?

No, the lag part is ancillary (for those 3 raids or whatever). The main component is the TWF nerf. Again, I really don't care if you nerf TWF as per second chart but if you don't nerf THF just as hard, me and my money are walking. And no Im not joking....market is currently FULL of awesome free MMOs, DDO is GOOD but not the only one out there.

[Chai]

BTW, if you guys are thinking about adding STWF you have to get rid of the 19 dex req or it'll just be a pointless feat for all (although it pretty much is except for possibly fighters due to extra feats).

I think 16 BAB makes it more pointless than 19 dex. Thats only 1/1 bab classes and multis who have more than 4 or more levels of a 1/1 BAB class.

the 3/4 classes lose their BAB at levels 1,5,9,13,17. So a rogue for instance would have to be 4 levels of fighter or ranger to get STWF.

[Neko-kun]

Aside: This thread has over a thousand replies. If the amount of rage keeps going at this rate, The Fury may be able to cross the planar boundaries and go PMS on Eberron.

And the marketplace tent was JUST finished being rebuilt :(

[vVAnjilaVv]

Not so much hardware as the code itself. However, editing such an integral part of DPS calculation so late into the development of the game is probably very difficult.

Ideally that's what they should do, but at that point, they might as well come out with DDO2.

Its the sad truth :(

Well I mean at this point why not just leave it alone then and give something a little extra to THF instead of inventing a ploy to incline multi-classers to buy their brand new "limited time only" +5 hearts...if multi-classers is who this is going to hurt the most it doesn't take rocket science nor too much common sense to realize why both of these things are announced on the same day :eek:

Not to mention the +2 loot table bribe....like they didn't know they would be announcing this today when they announced that yesterday.

[hydra_ex]

Well then I must be lucky cause I rarely lag. What I'm saying is coming from personal experience, so you can't expect me to know your experiences.

I have 3 exaplnations:
1. Luck.
2. Superbly good connection by pure chance.
3. Your groups need more DPS.

Note that DPS lag only happens occasionally in certain areas, including, but not limited to: End of a portal in the shroud, end of VoD, judge/jailer in ToD.

DPS lag almost always happens in several areas, including, but not limited to: Shroud part 4, ToD part 2, ToD part 3.

[k1ngp1n]

*Snip

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

Close, but not quite yet there. Only 5% from Tempest 3? Make it 10. Drop STWF.

Rangers now attack 10% (20% offhand/2) faster than Fighter 20, which is offset by their higher strength and crit multi. Paladins via Zeal will be either (depending on smite mechanics). Fighters will be either, with a preference toward THF. Barbs will be THF. Rogues will be TWF.

Done.

[Chai]

Well I mean at this point why not just leave it alone then and give something a little extra to THF instead of inventing a ploy to incline multi-classers to buy their brand new "limited time only" +5 hearts...if multi-classers is who this is going to hurt the most it doesn't take rocket science nor too much common sense to realize why both of these things are announced on the same day :eek:

Not to mention the +2 loot table bribe....like they didn't know they would be announcing this today when they announced that yesterday.


That doesnt get rid of the lag that the TWFers are solely responsible for, due to being too uber.

/rolls eyes.

[dasein18]

I think I found the solution!
All weapons now do as much damage as masterwork.

Turbine can now down grade to Tandy computers and have no lag issues.

[Solace183]

This is exactly what i said in an earlier post.

While two-weapon fighting fighters and two-weapon fighting ranges each have their advantages, the MIAN advantage of Tempest is that a TWF ranger would attack faster/more often than an equal level TWF fighter.

Now, a TWF 20 fighter with STWF and capstone can get the exact same offhand proc chance as a TWF Tempest III Ranger, but with 5% more double-strike chance! Thus, fighters actually attack faster/more often than tempest rangers!

And more, an Arcane Archer ranger can get the same offhand proc chance with only *1* feat investment (STWF) as a tempest ranger, without wasting 3 feats (Dodge, mobility, spring attack, OTWF), and while still being able to whip out a bow and manyshot +5 slayer arrows at some poor mob.

The new table seems okay-ish, though i'm not completely onboard with the changes, but STWF completely borks the whole deal!

This is, unfortunately, what I was afraid of.

Although, it really does seem like an oversight... At the very least, Tempest III 'should' be buffed to a 10% mainhand attack speed... Although I don't feel like this addresses the issue as a whole. Perhaps a side benefit of 100% str on tempest offhand, due to the investment... Although in the spirit of D&D, I feel like Tempests should be -the- TWF-er... It just seems like a 20 capstoned TWF Fighter would outshine with the +dmg from feats, kensai, and crit modifier changes...

Again, I'm not crunching any numbers, just hoping that this gets addressed sooner rather than later.

It just seems like with the AP and Feat investment for the PrE Tempest (I-III) that the return wouldn't be worth it under this new measure, particularly if S*** becomes an option. While I realize that fighters must invest (semi) heavily into Dex to get it.

[EyeRekon]

I have 3 exaplnations:
1. Luck.
2. Superbly good connection by pure chance.
3. Your groups need more DPS.

Note that DPS lag only happens occasionally in certain areas, including, but not limited to: End of a portal in the shroud, end of VoD, judge/jailer in ToD.

DPS lag almost always happens in several areas, including, but not limited to: Shroud part 4, ToD part 2, ToD part 3.

4. He plays at hours when the server has fewer players

[vVAnjilaVv]

Aside: This thread has over a thousand replies. If the amount of rage keeps going at this rate, The Fury may be able to cross the planar boundaries and go PMS on Eberron.

And the marketplace tent was JUST finished being rebuilt :(

Well, I am beginning to think this is Shavarath part two...'cept the true iedentity of the masterminds behind the madness of Xoriat comes to light....they are actually the Devs :D...or should I say that with a grumpy face:mad:......



now I am just :confused:

[krud]

They could always put STWF in as a selectable only feat for everyone (even rangers), and keep the 19dex prereq. A little something for high dex characters. People may just have to rearrange stats a little, instead of simply max str and con.

[donotdirect1]

And so would end any claim that this game had anything to do with D&D.

Static numbers rolled per attack chain does not end synergy with D&D. I'm not saying to average everything, I'm saying to ask less questions.

In PnP we skipped PLENTY of rolls, and I'm sincerely tired of people thinking that DDO and D&D are designed so differently. When we wanted to speed play, we rolled less. Same deal here. Less rolls, less questions, less lag.

So what happens when they twitch? They get to start over in the attack chain and hope for better rolls. A simple mechanic that allows you to play on the numbers. If a sword and board rolls low for a good portion of his attack chain while tanking, he shield blocks because that would be more effective at the moment.

Haste is fine, cause you'll just be making more attack chains.

If you are afraid that for some reason static numbers would be more like WoW, no worries. This game is nothing like it, and more static damage for your attack chain isn't going to change the game dramatically, as the proposed change most certainly will.

Want to add superior two weapon fighting on top of this suggestion? It'll actually work even better with an even number of attacks. And to those rangers complaining that Fighter's who TWF will be better, it was always designed that way. The fighter is supposed to be MASTER of combat, that's why he gets next to 0 skills.

This thread is a monster, and there is alot going on. There is very little in the way that I will actually be heard.

The best thing to do, instead of making a really destructive proposal and then amending it to a slightly less destructive proposal, is to let US vote.

1. Phantom Misses on nearly all off hand attacks until you spend 4 feats

2. Static Damage every attack chain

A. A possible 8th attack through STWF

B. Remove splashing damage from THF

______________________________
1. No thanks, we have a combat core that works, it's just slow.

2. Static Damage and less rolling? But retain randomness every attack chain? Sure if it will decrease lag.

A. Why not, STWF is a real feat. Lower BAB classes suffer a bit, but always have and will remain so.

B. Twitching, in my opinion, is an exploit. If you want to hit multiple enemies that is what cleave, and great cleave have been made to do, and what whirlwind attack has always been meant to do. Be thankful for your THF feats and time your cleaves better.

[hydra_ex]

Well I mean at this point why not just leave it alone then and give something a little extra to THF instead of inventing a ploy to incline multi-classers to buy their brand new "limited time only" +5 hearts...if multi-classers is who this is going to hurt the most it doesn't take rocket science nor too much common sense to realize why both of these things are announced on the same day :eek:

Not to mention the +2 loot table bribe....like they didn't know they would be announcing this today when they announced that yesterday.

I definitely agree.

However, I don't think its that black and white; this decision is for the benefit of their game directly, not just to earn money off the store. If it were just like flipping a switch to write better code, then they would do it. Unfortunately, at this point, its too difficult. Really, the sequence of problems leading to this is the following:
1. Progressive attack bonuses leave melees dealing tons of damage.
2. Caster are overbuffed.
3. Caster's firewall is nerfed. Greensteel is released.
4. Precedent set, continue to add in items.
5. Reach critical mass: DPS lag.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Ideally that's what they should do, but at that point, they might as well come out with DDO2.

Its the sad truth :(


As the rumor mill has been rumbling for 2 1/2 years about a 3rd game!

Could it be?

Anyways, If our MAIN issues cant be fixed, maybe that would be best!

As for the people flaming Turbine for a step in the right direction, I heard WOW has a 30 day free trial!:eek:

[vVAnjilaVv]

That doesnt get rid of the lag that the TWFers are solely responsible for, due to being too uber.

/rolls eyes.

Your evil!!!!! :p

*throws another log into the fire*

[Gol]

Stepping back from number crunching for a minute...

First off, thank you very much (Eladrin, others) for being willing to have an open discussion about this while there is still time to adjust the design.

I see that you're trying to kill the DPS problem. We all agree, it is a problem, and it needs to be fixed. I think most of the complaints here are that you're mucking with game balance at the same time. I realize game balance isn't perfect, but right now it's moderately balanced for the price you pay. TWF costs at least 3 feats and twice the grind of THF. Almost half your feats, and doubling the ingredients for your weapons of choice.

IMO, the best solution would be to fix one without "fixing" the other. DPS imbalance is ok at long as it comes at a price, and that's the way it stands today. That price makes people think twice about it. Nerf it too much (as I personally feel these changes will do), and people will stop using it.

It seems to me that making the offhand hook collision detection 100% dependent on the corresponding mainhand attack will result in a 50% reduction of collision detections during TWF attacking. That's huge - 50%. The remaining overhead of applying effects remains, but can be addressed by implementing a quasi-randomizer that has much less overhead than full blown randomization. Even a 20% improvement in CPU usage here would have great benefit, and none of this would require an overhaul to the TWF system that simply isn't needed.

My 2 copper. Signing out.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

The "high BAB" part scares me. Rogues already have enough trouble at high level because of the increasing fortification they face. To not allow rogues, especially dex based rogues, access to the best TWF feat doesn't make sense from a balance (or "fun") standpoint.

Please make it DEX 19. Or... if you want to help those who built for the old 17DEX max, make it "one of 1) DEX 19 or 2) DEX 17 + BAB 16"

[vVAnjilaVv]

I definitely agree.

However, I don't think its that black and white; this decision is for the benefit of their game directly, not just to earn money off the store. If it were just like flipping a switch to write better code, then they would do it. Unfortunately, at this point, its too difficult. Really, the sequence of problems leading to this is the following:
1. Progressive attack bonuses leave melees dealing tons of damage.
2. Caster are overbuffed.
3. Caster's firewall is nerfed. Greensteel is released.
4. Precedent set, continue to add in items.
5. Reach critical mass: DPS lag.

So what your basically saying is this game is turning into a coding nightmare because the Devs lack proper foresight?

All I have to say is last time they messed with the combat we all know how that went....seriously, I never have to deal with so much lag it's unplayable...and I really think this is an extreme solution........just like the orginal combat fix that lasted for what...2 days?

[Borror0]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?
Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

[hydra_ex]

As the rumor mill has been rumbling for 2 1/2 years about a 3rd game!

Could it be?

Anyways, If our MAIN issues cant be fixed, maybe that would be best!

If you had been paying closer attention, you would have realized that the nuance conveyed is that DDO2 is not being released, as they are instead devoting effort to fixing a difficult issue instead.

So, no, there is no DDO2. There probably won't ever be, actually. Aside from DPS lag, the engine is relatively robust.

[eeeeeee]

Im not senator but if i was id VETO this bill, my main toon is thf but i like the lag the way it is and i play on a basic windows vista laptop. Ive been in abbots where hes dead and i showed him at 50 percent but i still endured!

[Lighti]

Hang on.

So you nerfed AC, made that pratically uselss. Now you want to go and nerf TWF. Leaving THF the supreme. Yes TWF is currently higher DPS on a single target, but against multiple targets THF wins easily. its not just rangers and fighters that TWF. Loads of classes and multiclasses choose this option. Doing this you want to make THF the ruler. Destroying all those 12/7/1 ect and all the versitilliy in the game. There will be little point in making a TWF barbarian now. You gona give me back the ingredients put into my Mineral Heavy Picks and give me a LR token so i can change my toon into using GA?

Rangers will become the king of TWF, better than fighters. Again destroying versitility and through this what people love about this game. i dont want every person i see either playing either a tempest ranger or axe wielding barbarian.

why not compress all the effect numbers into 1 number or something along them lines rather than upheaving the whole combat system. This is gona tick a lot of people off and drive many away from the game if this is put into action


Definantly NOT /signed

[SisAmethyst]

... Initial thought, sound good to tackle lag but I am very skeptical about the nerf!


We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

... quite some posts till now but first of all thanks to Eladrin and Tolero to keep on reading this! Took me quite a while to read throught the posts (over 40 pages when I started to write that post) and already interesting modifications have been proposed like:


...Make the chance for offhand attacks with the TWF feat series somehow dependent on actual current dexterity...

I know and understand that we can not just add more hardware to solve the issue as the times and places with lag are usualy spikes and it is absolutly uneconomic to have just doubled the system power but 95% those power would be in idle mode. So it wouldn't pay of to only solve it by new Hardware if there wouldn't be improvements on the Code basis.
Regarding this I am even positive attuned for drastical changes.


We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later.

Cool, bought!


We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

Sounds like an interesting addition to the game...

However I am very skeptical about the nerf as it will have an immense impact even on what builds been considered viable. I mean this game is all about the DPS and I know that a time ago Rangers and Monks for example wasn't considered being much worth and Rogues still have a hard time.

I see that it partly makes sense to bring TWF and THF inline and closer together. A Fighter Kensai should be King with a Weapon whatever it is a Greataxe or dual wielding Kopesh or Bastard Swords. But it is not that easy to break that rule down on each Character.
It is even not only the point to say TWF add more Weapon Effects while THF has higher damage. If I fight a Marut I will switch to my Anarchic weapon, if I fight a Ice Flenser I would switch to a Fire Burst Outsider Bane (well, still need that one ;)), that is all about the weapon effect. I will not respec from TWF to THF and back each time I need a different Weapon effect :)

That to say for different Weapon effects you usualy already would switch the Weapon or already have created a specific Greensteal Weapon so in my eyes the argument for TWF get flawed. I know not an ideal example but should show how much worth the point 'weapon effect' over THF damage has. So the additional need of increasing DEX to qualify for the TWF chain would probably overweight the net result. Also the difference between the value of GTWF and Tempest seems too be heavy. While I am less concerned about the Figthers itself (I know and understand that it will hit Figthers very hard!) that are specialized for a Weapon and Fighting style I am worried about the impact for Monks (boosts) and especialy Rogues.

Well even a Paladin. I mean the route to go today for a Palading is TWF as there is for example no 'Holy Sword' recipe for a Greataxe but it is for Khopesh. Giving the nerf would not make them suddenly available but limit the overal damage output of a Paladin down to a THF Falchion user.

So from the numbers I have seen so far the nerf may probably too hughe and the values should be thought over.

Further you change the feeling of the fighting. Each time I was on my Bard that spams out haste and I go back to my Figther I have the feeling of being in slow motion. I know I should step away from hard drugs like speed but it is just awesome to be hasted :D But here is an important point, how to feel to play a character. If you now replace some of the speed bonus by adding an other hit, then you remove that feeling and it completly change how different Characters play. If a Barbarian in the end feels to play the same way as a Ranger or Paladin then probably a lot of fun part of this game is removed.


If maintaining their DPS is more critical to them than a smoother play experience, that's valuable for us to know, and we'll look at other, less aggressive (or different) options to solve the problems. I'd bet that greensteel weapons would be changing significantly in a future update if we revert these changes.

Mhhh... I don't like the attitude that swings with this sentence like 'if you not like this proposal we will nerf you on another place'... ahm, well it shouldn't come down to the point that you just want to steal some cookies...

Both are important for us players, the DPS as it is one of the major elements and a lag free game play.


I'll take the nerf and smile, it doesn't bother me much personally but you know that folks invested a lot in these characters so be sure to make them feel like they are still getting value for their build choices.

Absolutly

But I would like to see this in action, or better say, feel this... I really should take a look on Lamannia ...

[Yaga_Nub]

So if it's mainly Turbines engine then what they need to do is upgrade their hardware not nerf the game....or did I misinterpret?


Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

Plus the "engine" isn't hardware.

[hydra_ex]

So what your basically saying is this game is turning into a coding nightmare because the Devs lack proper foresight?

Well, not exactly. It was rather later Dev's lack of hindsight not to include items which have that effect, but, as borror0 mentioned, DDO does have a lot of tests going on every second; although it did nothing for 2 years, now, because we have the correct circumstances, we're paying the price.

There might be other efficient things they could have done, but especially under a deadline, easier/faster is better, especially when it had few foreseeable consequences. 2-3 years is a lot for a computer game, especially when Turbine's just starting to try to dig its roots in and grow.

[Alexandryte]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

But ....monks are left in cold. As it is, we are losing the self-haste that Wind Stance provided since the part that remains does not stack with Haste (spell).

While Dark may still be ok (I honestly dont play dark....I prefer more utility)....why would a raid want more than 1 light monk (if that)?

I may not be able to see all the pieces of the grand puzzle here....would you mind giving some insight? If there are other things on the list we dont see (like GS wraps finally coming out) it would be nice to know.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

That's why I am saying just leave it alone or least change it to a less extreme solution....sorry but I just cannot shake the feeling that this nerf and the new +5 hearts go hand in hand...their only saving grace is at least they had the decency to announce both on the same day instead of announcing this then announcing +5 hearts later....decieving people into thinking it's for the good of stopping lag but instead all along it was for the profit in their pocket.

[caution]

We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

The changes seem fair and reasonable in addressing server side CPU load/lag related issues. I do not believe it will fix all lag which I believe is network based.


My feedback is that you should expose combat modifiers (such as main/offhand proc %) on the character sheet!


I believe if you report the attack speed/chain impacts, people are more likely to accept, adopt, and tweak as required.

Just looking at this thread, there is a lot of confusion and emotion over the impact to perceived benefits and nerfs. The people who complain about nerfs are never going to be happy with anything that impacts the investment they have in the exploits in their build.


To disclose my influences, I have been a long time player and as much as I hate some of the changes to date (eg. server side casting), I do appreciate that changes they bring (even DA!). Some of my characters will be nerfed by this change.

[hydra_ex]

That's why I am saying just leave it alone or least change it to a less extreme solution....sorry but I just cannot shake the feeling that this nerf and the new +5 hearts go hand in hand...their only saving grace is at least they had the decency to announce both on the same day instead of announcing this then announcing +5 hearts later....decieving people into thinking it's for the good of stopping lag but instead all along it was for the profit in their pocket.

I have to disagree with you there; the hearts are there to assay people's fears that their characters are going to be gimp, and provide a solution.

Such a drastic change, to which the devs are actually paying close attention, is, IMO, an honest attempt at the betterment of the game.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Plus the "engine" isn't hardware.

I would think the engine would consist of pretty much everything important to running the game...including the hardware they use....altho I know what your saying too.

[Cetus]

Hang on.

So you nerfed AC, made that pratically uselss. Now you want to go and nerf TWF. Leaving THF the supreme. Yes TWF is currently higher DPS on a single target, but against multiple targets THF wins easily. its not just rangers and fighters that TWF. Loads of classes and multiclasses choose this option. Doing this you want to make THF the ruler. Destroying all those 12/7/1 ect and all the versitilliy in the game. There will be little point in making a TWF barbarian now. You gona give me back the ingredients put into my Mineral Heavy Picks and give me a LR token so i can change my toon into using GA?

Rangers will become the king of TWF, better than fighters. Again destroying versitility and through this what people love about this game. i dont want every person i see either playing either a tempest ranger or axe wielding barbarian.

why not compress all the effect numbers into 1 number or something along them lines rather than upheaving the whole combat system. This is gona tick a lot of people off and drive many away from the game if this is put into action


Definantly NOT /signed

This effect is only proposed and I'm already getting ticked off.

Noone is complaining about the combat system thus far for the most part, lag is an issue that is dealth with only in a handful of situations resulting from a chance style of gameplay- a GLOBAL change is not necessary and is hurting the player base.

[Yaga_Nub]

.....
Definantly NOT /signed

Good thing that there's nothing to sign so you just wasted a perfectly mediocre rant.

[Toddlwarren32]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.


This really is a good idea, and I hope that it’s something that the devs will consider. Why make a system-wide change in order to resolve an issue that occurs in certain content? That’s like using a sledgehammer to cut diamonds. ;)

[Chai]

Your evil!!!!! :p

*throws another log into the fire*

Yeap that totally it, TWF lost the rock off, and now they have to come back to hell with the rest of us. You dont want to know what their terms were for the challenge.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/941/1262429512624301largemm9.jpg

[eeeeeee]

If you make the change can you give a free tr to all who have twf. Most builds will be useless gimps by now

[mehlinda]

I believe you are looking at this from the wrong angle.

1) Determine where dps lag is an issue. I don't see dps lag in 6 man groups, only in raids. Whenever there are more people, and more attacks(speed increases and twf), concentrated on one target, dps lag hits.

2) Develop simplest plan to avoid these situations. Since this mainly isolated to certain raid encounters, change the raid encounters to keep the same challenge, but avoiding the concentration on one target.

3) Avoid major game design changes that effect everyone, and further remove from core rules.

For instance, Shroud part 4. Lets pretend the encounter is designed like this:
Initial orthon/devil/bezekira fight.
Harry and gnolls spawn at same time.
Gnolls respawn after X seconds giving more regeneration, effectively increasing Harry's hps.
Harry's overall hps is lowered 20%.
Challenge level is comparable, more tactics are added by requiring some melee to be on gnoll duty, dps lag on single target is reduced.

Shroud part 5
Do not bring the lieutenants out until Harry is at a certain hps%, making a few melee need to go kill them. Their special effect auras would buff him so not killing them would not be an option.

Tower
Make it so not killing the orthons has a detrimental effect, but lower overall hps to compensate.

I would think changing a few encounters to give more tactics>removing build choices and changing current builds.


Finally, what I wanted to say but didn't think of..change the few instances where it's an issue instead of changing it for 90% of the rest of the content...bravo

[EyeRekon]

Let's put it this way: turbine have made many choices for DDO that drastically increase the amount of computation necessary compared to any other MMO you can think of: collision test for each attack and collision test between players and mobs. Most MMOs do neither, so the mobs can pass through players and attacks do not miss (at least, not in the same way). It's a case of "poor code." No matter how efficient the code, the charge on the servers will be extreme.

The hardware necessary for "there to be no lag" would be ridiculously expensive and not a wise way to send their money.

I highly doubt that DDO's combat system is the most sophisticated of higher-volume MMOs. Computation Resources are cheap and on-demand nowadays. You can rent an 8-Core server for $0.80/hr for as long as you need it.

[hydra_ex]

I would think the engine would consist of pretty much everything important to running the game...including the hardware they use....altho I know what your saying too.

I suppose when I think about it, "engine" sounds physical; but its just software. Of course, its different from the initial code; by (poor) analogy, consider DDO to be a car. The game engine is the toolbox and usage of the tools used to fix it, and the code is each tool itself.

So, from our perspective, we don't know if we have a faulty tool, or if our toolbox itself is just a little weak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_engine

[Nevthial]

DPS lag is not affected (much) by your computer. It affects me pretty much equally whether I'm playing on my gaming computer or on my laptop.

The hardware required would be an insane connection which cost an arm and a leg and/or are not available to the general public. Its all game engine/code and connection, and it takes a really exceptional connection, and even then, its still Turbine's engine, mainly.


If this is the case then why do we all get the same level of lag at the same times on vastly different systems and only in the same raids?

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

[Persnoody]

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

bravo.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I have to disagree with you there; the hearts are there to assay people's fears that their characters are going to be gimp, and provide a solution.

Such a drastic change, to which the devs are actually paying close attention, is, IMO, an honest attempt at the betterment of the game.

Yeah gimped after the fact of the matter that they are going to nerf now viable multi-class builds and give them the "option" to ungimp themselves. We all know that many succesful multi-class builds would benefit more ffrom a +5 heart than having to buy 2 +3's.

It's just how like I had all kinds of multi-class builds that were viable until Amarath came out and now I basically won't play any of them until I reinc them.

I guess the option being there is nice, but I don't see many people wanting this. I just see them striking with this now because there is a whole new crowd now that do not know what is going on and it's not going to affect them and once again the people that have been around a while are the lab rats.

Another reason I think so many vets are jaded....the new players get warned not to do what we constantly have to be subjected to......how do I sign up for being the "NEW" player?

[SisAmethyst]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to...

Ok, I like this changed numbers quite more then the initial ones ...


* Only when wielding two weapons.

So finally the Silver Flame -1 Club on the Delaras Quest chain has a value? :D


All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

Uhm, I am absolutly unsure how to fit in an additional feat like STWF in most builds, at least for a Paladin it would be nearly impossible...

[Borror0]

Plus the "engine" isn't hardware.
While true, the problem is not with the engine.

DDO does have a lot of tests going on every second; although it did nothing for 2 years, now, because we have the correct circumstances, we're paying the price.
Exactly. It's the same thing that happened with Dungeon Alert. When they first designed DDO, they didn't expect that we'd run through quests while so few monsters. Fastforward three years later and the burden on the servers was insane (Koster said that the average server load for a SOE game was 44% pathing and those didn't have collision tests) and they had to lower it because it was too expensive to be sustainable.

It's not something that they could foresee three years ahead and its presence has made DDO we love, but it's a problem now.

[Kwyjibo]

So this isn't going to be constructive, and is my initial reaction.

I thought DA was intro'd into the game to resolve the lag issues? Obviously it didn't. So can we get rid of it? (rhetorical since we all know the answer)

And now we have to accept yet another nerf because...um...yea...the staff threw their hands up and surrendered? Oh wait they didn't surrender, they created yet another work around.

When this doesn't fix the problem (and it probably won't), will we return to the current system (yea again, rhetorical).

I'm not sure why Turbine thinks the "throw a dart at the dart board and hope to hit the bulls-eye" is a viable problem solving methodology. My customers certainly expect better from me. I can't imagine telling one of my customers "sorry but you need to change the way you do business because I can't fix the problem".

Why can't you just fix the problem and keep the game as is? I can't be the only one that is tired of creating and maturing characters only to have Turbine change the rules...

/endrage

[IronClan]

This still remains the same as DA. Aside from DA not actually doing anything about lag, even if it had, it would be the same as your car not being able to do the proper highway speed, so you instead merely drive on the secondary roads (side streets) instead of fixing the car. This is the same thing. Instead of fixing the problem of the hardware and its architecture not scaling correctly, reduce what is done with the hardware. This is going well beyond mere optimization of how things get done, to changing WHAT gets done.

What server machines do they use, and which ones should they upgrade too?

For my 2c I don't like how this change seems to throw away an elegant working as it should TWF system for a kludged inelegant "double strike" mechanic... In that sense I agree it's a little like DA, there are probably better ways to achieve the same result just like DA and the possible alternatives to it, however they may end up being things that the really twitch/hard core players wont like...

A small global reduction in combat speed (and even movement speed) would solve a LOT of lag problems... and probably make the game more approachable and easier to understand for new players who come from games like NWN (which has a more relaxed speed)... Put a "sprint" key in and a fatigue meter and the slow down actually gives a little added "tactics" to the game like sprinting away from the center of an AOE spell for example... Could even open up some new feats like Knock Down, and Endurance feats. Slower players get to the next mob slower so they do less DPS across the whole server, so this lowers total server overhead... Without anyone actually feeling less powerful or being nerfed...

[vVAnjilaVv]

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

Couldn't agree more...another huge mistake of making this game F2P.....anyone with an internet connection can play this game now. Not saying that's a bad thing, but if people playing on prehistoric machines are borking everyone else's play perhaps this should be addressed before a massive combat nerf.

[Borror0]

That's why I am saying just leave it alone or least change it to a less extreme solution
I'm telling you that this is the least extreme solution.

[lord_of_rage]

Ok, I like this changed numbers quite more then the initial ones ...



Uhm, I am absolutly unsure how to fit in an additional feat like STWF in most builds, at least for a Paladin it would be nearly impossible...

Current recomended Paladin twf kotc feats

TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
extend

New feat set up.
TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
STWF

So you lose extend. Extend is nice but not needed. For a dos build Id do it the same way only there would be a two lvl splash there, for the dos feats I want.

[hydra_ex]

I'm telling you that this is the least extreme solution.

Well, least extreme in terms of how much editing of source code or hardware or whatever they have to do.

In terms of gameplay experience, its still quite extreme, although I could imagine quite a few extremer work-arounds (as I'll call this; it not really a "fix")



Current recomended Paladin twf kotc feats

TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
extend

New feat set up.
TWF
ITWF
Toughness
Imp crit
Power attack
GTWF
STWF

So you lose extend. Extend is nice but not needed. For a dos build Id do it the same way only there would be a two lvl splash there, for the dos feats I want.

Or you could pick up minIIs and get rid of imp crit. Either way, Paladin's loose something :(

[Souless]

Ah, but there is a major difference. Tapping the button was dead easy, twitching requires timing and is made more difficult by actually being in combat.
What u mean here is u figured out the "new" way to tap the button.

I was originally very sceptical to it but after trying it through a char or two I must say that it's one of the best things in the game, purely on account of making combat more fluent and fun.
What u mean here is that my DPS is much, much better this way so I can kill stuff faster.

Twitching also brings ddo closer to PnP, bear with me...
What u mean here is ur version of pnp.
PnP: Multiple attacks with decreasing attack bonus. Higher damage per round against low ac foes.
N here u mean that "bending the rules" in ur favor is acceptable. The dev's nerfed the tap button speed attack...stands to reason the NEVER intented this.
DDO: Twitching gives higher number of attacks at the cost of attack bonus, same as PnP. The main benefit is that you can take 5foot steps without suffering loss of attacks.
What u mean here is: because ac doesnt matter in game it means ur DPS is much, much better this way so U can kill stuff faster.
---
Regarding the change I can kind of digest the changed numbers. 2wf will suffer a slight decreas What u mean here is: Massive decrease in twf so that my twitch THF can have higher dps than a weakling twf build.bringing it close to non-twitch 2h, more notable for classes where 2wf has pronounced advantages. At the same time twitching will loose glancing blows bringing it closer to non-twitch and staying ~proportional to 2wf.
Here u mean the nerf to ur toon matters to u!! Well the NERF to my toons matter to me!! And im not using any bug in game to increase my dps.
Gut feeling only, will crunch numbers when/if I get the time.

The notable thing for me is that I think I'll go "omg thass so kewl" more from seeing double strikes and getting streaks of off hand procs compared to the relative same same of holding the attack button.

Same tactic as the haste change in first presenting a horrendous version before presenting the real version? =)

In any case the nerf is comming.....I just hope the eSOS gets the hammer as well. As for twitch fighting...the devs attempted to git rid of it along time ago.....if it's of any consolation to u...misery loves company...POW take a Nerf hammer hit to ur THF!

The Bytcher~

[lord_of_rage]

Well, least extreme in terms of how much editing of source code or hardware or whatever they have to do.

In terms of gameplay experience, its still quite extreme, although I could imagine quite a few extremer work-arounds (as I'll call this; it not really a "fix")




Or you could pick up minIIs and get rid of imp crit. Either way, Paladin's loose something :(

I have never seen extend as a needed feat. As far as min2s go on pallys I craft lit2s first as you have holy sword for hard and elite raids. So dropping imp crit would hurt. And by dropping imp crit you are pretty much limiting yourself to min2s or be much less effective. So Id rather drop extend.

[hydra_ex]

I have never seen extend as a needed feat. As far as min2s go on pallys I craft lit2s first as you have holy sword for hard and elite raids. So dropping imp crit would hurt. And by dropping imp crit you are pretty much limiting yourself to min2s or be much less effective. So Id rather drop extend.

I agree; I'm just presenting another reasonably viable alternative.

[lord_of_rage]

I agree; I'm just presenting another reasonably viable alternative.

I can see that now if you are a paladin that slaps a tenderizer in your off hand and takes stunning blow over extend now it really hurts. But yes either way pallys lose something. It kinda bites as paladins have become my favorite class.

[The_Phenx]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

YES.... leave it in.. its a good option for kensai fighters to have strong twf...and as a kensai TWF my opinion matters :D

[Seventh]

I can see that now if you are a paladin that slaps a tenderizer in your off hand and takes stunning blow over extend now it really hurts. But yes either way pallys lose something. It kinda bites as paladins have become my favorite class.

I feel your pain. I only rolled my first pally recently, but only 10 levels in he became my favorite toon... (Oh God need to reroll to thf now **** **** gaaah- STOP. Don't panic. Wait to see how it turns out. Be calm. Caaalm.)

[Chai]

Different systems in same intensive instance ( raids ) causing server side lag due to attempted synchronization with the lowest common denominator.
Here is a test: Solo Shroud on your non-gaming machine and then try it on a top end gaming machine. See which one has the worst lag( or any). I've tried it both ways. My junk machine will sputter out. My top end one keeps on as if I'm in the Butcher's Path. ALL the players in an raid instance need to be on decent machines. ALL the players in a red alert zergfest need to be on top end machines. Turbine does need to re-evaluate their server code ( see the threads on mem loss), but the core problem with massive lag is player side hardware/connection speed issues. It's like trying to synchronize a 1600 baud modem with a T1 line, not gonna work too well if alot of bits are being pumped. One will always be trying to catch up with the other, and packet loss will increase for ALL parties included in the data stream.

No.

We should not all have to be playing on a render farm somewhere in an animation studio to not get lag.

If I am on a low end system and you are on a high end system and we are in the same raid, according to what you are saying, you should not be experiencing the lag I am experiencing, and this simply isnt true in DDO.

All 12 of us get the lag in the shroud at the same time on vastly different systems.

I am on a video editing machine. My computer can handle it. I am not getting lag because someone else in the raid is on a commodore 64. I am getting lag because the server is a commodore 64, just like everyone else isgetting that same lag.

The type of lag you are describing was more common in EQ when we had 75 people in the same raid zone, all with particle effects, etc.

The packet loss is due to the system not being able to deliver the information quickly enough, not due to our systems being able to handle it. But hey, they made a game where people can generate this level of DPS, and now the only solution is to nerf the DPS calc by nerfing DPS generated.

The only part I dont get is its all the melee players who are moaning about it when it should be the clerics and FvS who have to now heal through the even more extended raids where they already have to drink pots.

[Razcar]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.And what about rogues Eladrin? Why would anyone play a rogue that has to work for its DPS and now won't get it anymore anyway?

[Daehawk]

I think this would be a perfect time for the release of Holy Sword Falchion ^_^ :D

[Auriljr]

And what about rogues Eladrin? Why would anyone play a rogue that has to work for its DPS and now won't get it anymore anyway?

"Delete ALL Rogues" eldarin responses or will response in a near future :P

[Khelden]

Dude every post you have made has been I want you to change TWF because I am a THF fighting dude and I am gimped....so please nerf everyone one else because I am too lazy or not smart enough to fix my toon....I have known alot of folks who play THF and are not gimped, so this leads me to believe it has to do with player and or build. How many toons you have that will be affected by this? If your main was a monk you would not be as supportive I think.

TWF need more gear,have less points to spread around and then are only margainly beter the THF...if they were equal WHAT REASON WOULD THERE BE TO PLAY A TWF? What don't you GET!?!?!
If the play style doesn't fit you, go play something else. Think THF is easier? Go play it. I will keep my TWF even if they balance them with THF, I always play what I feel to play. At the moment, my main is my rogue/rngr/pal [TWF as you prolly guessed]

Also, I wouldn't say that my main is THF. I have a TWF fighter, a THF fighter, a Monk (pure, str based), TWF Paladin (because I just could NOT do THF, THF paladins are wayyy behind TWF), a rogue [well... call it what you want, but 12 rogue, 6 ranger, 2 pal) and a WF Barb. Now, which one is my main? Hummmmmm... None. But to answer your question, 4 of my characters will be affected by this + the toons I told my friend to roll.

Yeah, TWF costs more. So what? Each time I play a character, I trade time for experience or gear. If Im playing on my THF and planning to play 6 hours, I will do so. If I'm on my TWF, I won't play more just because they are harder to gear.

[IronClan]

Who is going to move in 0.15 seconds? Especially a raid boss, where this happens the most? Why don't you just do the smart thing and make 1 check per MH swing, and just ASSUME that the monster is there for the OH.

^^^ this

The more I think about this the less elegant and more tacked on the double strike idea looks.. and the more elegant and simple the idea of just doing away with the extra physics looks...

Could even just do away with this situationally...

I'm kinda surprised that DDO doesn't seem to have any "scaling" for lag or at least none is noticible or talked about by the devs... Situationally dumbing the mechanics down when lag hits would seem to be something that would fix a lot of it, once the bandwidth or resource usage hits a critical threshold, you stop sending combat logs, stop sending the least important graphical related traffic to the clients, start skipping animation (and client updates about them) etc.

like resource scaling in a 3D modeling/animation program... when the CPU is bogging down lower the details that are least important and push the most important feedback through...

[SisAmethyst]

Its 19 base dex in the book game, as well as 16 BAB, which means it will be a level 18 feat for just about everyone taking it except those with fighter levels. Even though monks get their flurry to even off their BAB to 20, this does not qualify them for feats as they are still 3/4, so no STWF for rogues monks cleric FvS and bards.

In the book game, its an epic feat, so those classes would have 16 BAB at level 22.

Well, we are not in epic Levels yet for DDO and I guess we will not see levels beyond 20 very soon anyway. If we finally get there then we still can add STWF to this time...

[Razcar]

"Delete ALL Rogues" eldarin responses or will response in a near future :P
Talk about the class the devs ignored. Hey, at least we have a forum, it is here (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=28)by the way Eladrin. You have to be happy for the small things. And Mechanics are getting repeating crossbows, how about that.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'm telling you that this is the least extreme solution.

But if I am reading this properly....a bunch of multi-class builds are getting the short end of the stick......how is this a good thing?

I'm all for a change but making builds that worked beforehand have to re-spec I think is just shady.

Honestly I am really getting to the point where they should have just never made multi-classing an option in this game.

[hydra_ex]

^^^ this

The more I think about this the less elegant and more tacked on the double strike idea looks.. and the more elegant and simple the idea of just doing away with the extra physics looks...

Could even just do away with this situationally...

I'm kinda surprised that DDO doesn't seem to have any "scaling" for lag or at least none is noticible or talked about by the devs... Situationally dumbing the mechanics down when lag hits would seem to be something that would fix a lot of it, once the bandwidth or resource usage hits a critical threshold, you stop sending combat logs, stop sending the least important graphical related traffic to the clients, start skipping animation (and client updates about them) etc.

like resource scaling in a 3D modeling/animation program... when the CPU is bogging down lower the details that are least important and push the most important feedback through...

The problem with the "reassign resources" approach is that, at least according to my limited tests, they're on different channels. Not the whole game lags, just parts, so I don't think that it would help much, if any.

OTOH, guild names and combat feedback seems to be on the same channel, so it helps to turn it off.

[Souless]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezichiend View Post
Who is going to move in 0.15 seconds? Especially a raid boss, where this happens the most? Why don't you just do the smart thing and make 1 check per MH swing, and just ASSUME that the monster is there for the OH.

/signed
The Bytcher~

[Chai]

Well, we are not in epic Levels yet for DDO and I guess we will not see levels beyond 20 very soon anyway. If we finally get there then we still can add STWF to this time...

Yeah, then the mobs will be tossing max empowered hellballs and epic ruins at us. You think 500 point disintegrates are bad, wait until its 1500. Wait until all the trash mobs cast dragon knight too.

Epic levels open a pandoras box that is likely not be viable in DDO. Its even way broken in PnP.

But hey, youll have STWF, heh.

[Philam]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought DA fixed lag?

Ph

[Sirslapemsack]

Sorry guys, this is a nerf plain and simple. The problem in HIGHER level raids ISNT dps lag. Ive done ToD, VoD, Shroud, etc. at every point in the day. And guess what everybody.................lag isnt as bad when theres less ppl on the server. :o Could it be, and this is just speculation of course, that the lag isnt from DPS in one instance?? maybe its because we are running on a server that needs to be updated, overhauled, FIXED period?? Everybody knows this you are all just buying into this, "change" and discussing instead of saying what needs to be said. Of course there will be no response to my post because the truth hurts and eladrin will never address such truths.............Theres a reason

Well, heres a question about the new "changes" aka Nerf......Will a monk now stand there throwing left jabs only and 50% of the time throw a right cross?? Will a TWF Fighter now just hold his off handed weapon still until it procs? I just want to know because i would like the animations to reflect how the combat is actually playing out. Since players over all DPS in a raid is going to be so significally reduced, since after all, thats the only problem for lag right, are raid bosses HP going to be equally reduced?? I mean, our survival in so many raids depends on Downing the Raid names in a quick manner right?? Or are the raid bosses going to have the same amount of HP and nerf our dps therefore forcing healers to sip more pots and therefore visit the DDO store a little more often to stock up. These are the reall questions that need to be answered........oh but yeah great post.

[Chai]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought DA fixed lag?

Ph

Yeah, all those noobs zerging waterworks were lagging our raids. :D

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yeah, then the mobs will be tossing max empowered hellballs and epic ruins at us. You think 500 point disintegrates are bad, wait until its 1500.

Epic levels open a pandoras box that is likely not be viable in DDO. Its even way broken in PnP.

But hey, youll have STWF, heh.

I don't know if epic is broken so much as it is really intended for hardcore DDO powergamers. To me, even tho I am more than a casual player but far from obsessed with gear, I think this game ends at Amarath casual/normal.

Even the ToD raid is ludicrously inaccessible for the fact that you have to grind mindlessly just to get boot ingredients for most people to accept you (honestly I wouldn't wanna go without them anyways). I think they went way overboard with that tho and it should be changed.

[Cyr]

New numbers are still a nerf to TWF. A very serious nerf to monks and rogues still. A terrible idea is still a terrible idea. Remove this balance junk completely from the physics change and this change will go from hated to no problem very quickly.

It's getting really tiring to wait for the next major nerf packaged as an improvement to the game.

The game has become less fun since Mod 9 released. System changes and proliferation of bugs are ruining this game.

[ddoer]

if you have identified physics detection of the 2nd attack of TWF is one of the main cause of dps lag problem, why not simply skip the detection or use a time checking logic that, for example, any physicals detection check will be valid for an interval (say, 0.5s) and any subsequence swing won't trigger any detection again before the interval of the previous check has expired. And keep everything else unchanged.

use a solution that keep it simple, stupid.



Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.


given that most of the dps lag come from TWF in raid, I don't see how it could help to reduce lagging at all. as mentioned in another post, most (if not all) dps lag happen in single target raid scenario. I have never seen THF moving attack cause any lag myself. i view this as simply a nerf to THF because TWF got nerf'd with the proposed changes.

this change will also create a balancing issue between melees and casters when dealing a group of mobs. what do you expect a THFer to do in front of a few epic mobs?

[Borror0]

But if I am reading this properly....a bunch of multi-class builds are getting the short end of the stick......how is this a good thing?
It fixes DPS lag. Short-term pain for long-term gain.

[SisAmethyst]

Yet...

How much of the problem is the physics detection?

Compared to just a damage roll, for example [1d6+5] like:

considering seconds of current time divided by ten would give a more or less random value between 0,0 and 5,9:
round(0,0..5,9 + 1) + 5

the collision detection is much more complex like

* get x1:y1:z1 coordinates of mob
* get x2:y2:z2 coordinates of player
* get distance between this coordinates = square root of ( (x2-x1)²+(y2-y1)²+(z2-z1)² )
* check if weapon is long enough and distance is short enough to reach the mob at all
* also check if there is a wall between both coordinates (even more complex then the distance)

However this is as said only a subset of things that produce lag. Another one is for example the actual data that is shared between Client and Server.

[Larvenk]

What is happening to the thf fighters? Do they loose the 10%?

[Daehawk]

What is happening to the thf fighters? Do they loose the 10%?

THF can proc Double Strikes as well.

For Example: If you are a Paladin using Epic SoS and have Zeal active on you. You have a 10% chance to proc a Double Strike. If you use Exalted Smite you have a chance while using THF to proc 2 Exalted Smites.

[Angelus_dead]

It fixes DPS lag.
That's not true (or you switched to a different "it" from what Vvaanjilavv had been talking about).

There are really five different changes announced here:
1. Merge physical checking for offhand attacks.
2. Switch some attack-speed increases into percentage chances for another attack hook.
3. Remove glancing blows while moving.
4. Switch some attack-speed increases to be mainhand-only.
5. Reduce offhand attack ratio unless you get it back with STWF.

It is item number 5 that's the painful nerf to some builds, and it's that change which has negligible real benefit to DPS lag (#4 is also really minimal). If they're allowing STWF to bring back the current 100% offhand attack ratio, then the change is merely a nerf to feat slots and dex/BAB flexibility, which does nothing to reduce the server work during a raid battle (unless the characters were unable to fit STWF).


Short-term pain for long-term gain.
Backwards? DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles is short-term gain, but nerfed TWF builds is long-term pain.

[eonfreon]

Ouch, so with these changes my Paladin will have to change out Extend for STWF to barely keep my dps up to my current level?

Yes, I know Extend isn't "needed" but it hurts dps even more to have to constantly recast Zeal and Divine Favor during boss fights. Even casting while running from fight to fight can be an incredible pain in the butt.

Also, how can you mention including the STWF Feat and not give us any indication of what the prereqs might be?

Seems like you're trying to do too much all at once.

And who came up with the inelegant idea of "double strikes" to replace of the speed attack increase of Zeal and Fighter Capstone? And I'm unclear whether Ranger Tempest 1 losing it's speed bonus too? Is the only bonus (besides a shield bonus and reduction of to-hit penalty) to Tempest 1 an additional +10% to proc an offhand attack?

Like someone else said, just have the offhand attacks piggyback on the collision detection. Assume that there is always an attack opportunity when the first hand has a chance to hit. That cuts down the lag from the second calculation AND doesn't add another system in. Since we get that with the supposed STWF, then it won't even matter since it will be a 100% chance anyway, you're just making it cost more and be harder to do (by requiring STWF), but it will be done anyway, as per the system you've put in, when everyone finally figures out how to fit in STWF.

And leave attack speed bonuses as is, please.

[Angelus_dead]

You have a 10% chance to proc a Double Strike. If you use Exalted Smite you have a chance while using THF to proc 2 Exalted Smites.
And that's a buff to THF builds, who did not previously have a way to get two Smites simultaneously. That's in addition to them not being nerfed like TWFs are...

[Chai]

Backwards? DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles is short-term gain, but nerfed TWF builds is long-term pain.

DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles was long term forum moaning. Made your beds, now reside in them.

[Angelus_dead]

* get distance between this coordinates = square root of ( (x2-x1)²+(y2-y1)²+(z2-z1)² )
Only noob programmers (or pedantic pedagogues) would ever take a square root to compare distance. x*x>y*y implies sqrt(x*x)>sqrt(y*y)

[SisAmethyst]

Current recomended Paladin twf kotc feats

...
extend

...
STWF

Well I know that I could swap STWF with Extend that is why I said nearly impossible, but then it is still unclear if STWF would need DEX 19 which is unlikely on a Paladin. Also it reduce one of my major damage Buff like Zeal as the Mana resources of a paladin are still limited which is the reason for using Extend.

But even for other Classes except for Fighters STWF is difficult to get.

[Angelus_dead]

DPS lag in 3-5 specific battles was long term forum moaning. Made your beds, now reside in them.
Why do you keep saying that? Where did that idea come from?

[kruggar]

It fixes DPS lag. Short-term pain for long-term gain.

not so fast bor.. we still need to check if it works :)

[Galacticus]

No one knows that it wont either.

Some of the more patient and intelligent people are reserving judgement until they see the actual results. But since they asked for BOTH instinctual feedback AND post test feedback, people are providing it, on BOTH sides currently.

Dude I understand and I've been watching this thread all day since Eladrin has posted it. I'm not making any decisions to my playing till they come out with a final fix. Honestly, I've been here since day 1 and have seen soooo many nerfs, I'm just saddened when I see stuff like this cause I know how much time and effort we(Vets) put into our toons and to have them nerfed, it's just ashamed.

I just hope we can get deconstruct...that will heal alot of wounds.

[TiranBlade]

You know at first I was like yes this might be a good idea, then I started to think about it again with the reintroduction of STWF, but you know, if they can figure out how to benefit anyone who gets over say 100% Off Hand Chance, I would actually accept this and move on, seriously it is starting to sound like a good idea in the end for me, it starts becoming more realistic and only the end game people truely need the highest chance to hit.

I say this because as and MMO, it might be a greats system, but it still drives to mind that this is also Dungeons & Dragons and it does take away from how the game relates to the Pen and Paper version of the game.

As much as I would like to give this a chance, I think I might actually be against it, I am really torn about weither to not this should be done at all.

Thanks for listening one more time,
TiranBlade

[Chai]

Why do you keep saying that? Where did that idea come from?

The fact that people have been making "fix the lag" rant threads since 2007 when the shroud came out. This landed us DA, and now this.

And just about everyone who spun this tale made it sound so epic.

[SisAmethyst]

Only noob programmers (or pedantic pedagogues) would ever take a square root to compare distance. x*x>y*y implies sqrt(x*x)>sqrt(y*y)

I know that too but I used this example to make it more visible that a simple roll is less calculation then the physics check :D

[eonfreon]

I just hope we can get deconstruct...that will heal alot of wounds.

And free respecs.

[Calebro]

Well I know that I could swap STWF with Extend that is why I said nearly impossible, but then it is still unclear if STWF would need DEX 19 which is unlikely on a Paladin. Also it reduce one of my major damage Buff like Zeal as the Mana resources of a paladin are still limited which is the reason for using Extend.

But even for other Classes except for Fighters STWF is difficult to get.

The more I think about it, the more I like STWF being implemented. Rangers essentially get it for free, making them King of TWF (as it should be).
Others now have the option if they devote enough resources (build points and stat raises) to get it.

Few are likely to do this, but the option is there. So Rangers are still TWF kings in most cases, but the extremely rare exception may occur.

[Newtons_Apple]

One of the major issues that we’ve been working on is the dps lag problem in high level content (especially raid content). We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live. We're trying to aggressively attack the issues that cause these lag problems and are interested in feedback regarding how aggressively we should be attempting to tackle them.

My post is a bit more technical than I normally write for public consumption, but I want to make the issues and the reasons we’re considering these changes extremely clear.

Some people may have noticed that problems occur most often when there are many monks or two weapon fighting characters that are loaded with many on-hit effects attacking en masse. These characters currently perform many attacks very quickly, and each attack is pretty heavy performance-wise. Rather than attack the problem by changing common heavy-load equipment, we’ve already taken some steps to optimize the way we perform attacks, and are considering the following changes to reduce overall performance loads:

Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

We would now assume that if your opponent was within range for your first attack, it will still be in range 0.15 seconds later. We also go about determining whether or not a particular swing gets an off-hand attack in a much cleaner manner than before.

We’re also considering introducing a new mechanic to replace some speed bonus effects, called double strike:

A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)

The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.
A TWF Paladin that Smites something under the effect of Zeal would attack with the main hand, have a 10% chance to attack with the main hand again, and would have a chance (based on TWF feats) to attack with the off hand in one sequence. Level 20 Fighters with the capstone would simply always hit twice 10% of the time with their main hands. For a future update, we’re considering revisiting some old items (such as Jorgundal’s Collar, which currently doesn’t stack with Haste) and replacing the effects with a double strike effect.

For those that are interested in the “how does that help? You’re still making 11 attacks in 10 swings” – double strikes, like the proposed off-hand attacks, would bypass the additional physics detects and secondary characteristics of normal attacks such as glancing blows, while still providing an increase to overall damage over time. It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway. (Warchanters, for instance, are likely to end up with a double strike song in a future update.)

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.

Fighter Alacrity (capstone) now grants a +10% bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.
The Paladin spell Zeal now grants a +10% Sacred bonus to double attack with the main hand instead of a 10% speed increase.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

For example, a Ranger 18 (Tempest III) / Monk 2 in Wind Stance I would have a 90% chance to proc off-hand attacks per swing, while a completely unskilled character would only generate off-hand attacks 20% of the time. A Monk 20 in Wind Stance IV would have a 75% chance to trigger off-hand attack hooks.

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.

These are not the only things we’re currently investigating, and will not solve all of the dps lag issues - it’s one of many steps we’re taking to pursue them. I also highly recommend reading this post and thread ( http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2374594&postcount=5) - especially the part about intra-DAT fragmentation[step 3] if your install is a year or more old - if you’re suffering serious problems, it may help with some client-side issues.

We wanted to get your reactions and comments to this now though, before (and after) it hits Lamannia.

---

Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk 100% 70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed) 110% 60%
14 Pal/6 Rng 110% 65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk 100% 90%


---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

This change as a whole leaves a sour taste in my mouth. You're changing a fundamental aspect of a loved combat style. There is nothing cooler to me than watching Fozzie tear through things at mind numbing speeds.

So just how slowly will we swing now? Here is my point: people expect their Monks and other TWF's to swing fast - it's what they're supposed to do. So now what - will I be sounding out the bionic man sound effect in my head everytime I swing? A monk or a Ranger swinging slowly would just feel wrong.


Yes, TWF causes DPS lag. But removing the cause of a problem doesn't solve the problem, it merely masks it. There will be some unknown addition in the future for TWF'rs, and I guarantee the "problem" will rear it's ugly head down the road at some point, mark my words.


Others have also made the point that this problem only occurs in Raids. I agree with this - I can't think of a time when I've had DPS lag in a 6 man quest. There are only 9 raids right now. Compare that with somewhere over 200 quests. (Granted most people run raids at end game - I get that too.) It would seem a lot simpler to me to alter those raids to stop the "swarm the boss" method that is really causing this lag. (I really likes one posters idea of changing the spawn rate of gnolls in part 4 of Shroud - that was very innovative.)

Another good idea I've heard is to bump raids down to 10 man groups - dungeon scaling would by default handle in a fair manner the necessary drop in difficulty, so why not?


I would like to see this tested on Lammannia first. I've even posted a thread on the Lammannia forum to put together (another) Shroud DPS Lag test. My suggestion is roll out each change on a step by step basis. Change the physics first, and allow us to test it. Maybe it will be enough.

[k1ngp1n]

Only noob programmers (or pedantic pedagogues) would ever take a square root to compare distance. x*x>y*y implies sqrt(x*x)>sqrt(y*y)

Unfortunately, to calculate the actual distance, you need to sqrt. This would occur, say, to find out if a target is next to another. :)

[Angelus_dead]

The fact that people have been making "fix the lag" rant threads since 2007 when the shroud came out.
That's not a logical conclusion.

The thing people are complaining about here is not that DPS lag is being addressed, but that TWF characters are having their relative number of attacks reduced unless they buy it back with a new STWF feat.

The reason the developer is making that change is not based on DPS lag or complaints about DPS lag. As explained in the first post, it is because he considers TWF to be too powerful compared to THF, and wanted them to have similar damage.

[Chai]

That's not a logical conclusion.

The thing people are complaining about here is not that DPS lag is being addressed, but that TWF characters are having their relative number of attacks reduced unless they buy it back with a new STWF feat.

The reason the developer is making that change is not based on DPS lag or complaints about DPS lag. As explained in the first post, it is because he considers TWF to be too powerful compared to THF, and wanted them to have similar damage.

No but they are SAYING its due to DPS lag.

Also read: Dungeon Alert.

These kinds of things tend to repeat themselves until we break the chain.

[lord_of_rage]

Well I know that I could swap STWF with Extend that is why I said nearly impossible, but then it is still unclear if STWF would need DEX 19 which is unlikely on a Paladin. Also it reduce one of my major damage Buff like Zeal as the Mana resources of a paladin are still limited which is the reason for using Extend.

But even for other Classes except for Fighters STWF is difficult to get.

You just need to get used to throwing it twice as often. I have 3 paladins. I really dont feel extend is an essential feat. The reason for using extend is a two min buff lasts four min but costs more. All extend does is make zeal easier to keep up.

[Galacticus]

This change as a whole leaves a sour taste in my mouth. You're changing a fundamental aspect of a loved combat style. There is nothing cooler to me than watching Fozzie tear through things at mind numbing speeds.

So just how slowly will we swing now? Here is my point: people expect their Monks and other TWF's to swing fast - it's what they're supposed to do. So now what - will I be sounding out the bionic man sound effect in my head everytime I swing? A monk or a Ranger swinging slowly would just feel wrong.


Yes, TWF causes DPS lag. But removing the cause of a problem doesn't solve the problem, it merely masks it. There will be some unknown addition in the future for TWF'rs, and I guarantee the "problem" will rear it's ugly head down the road at some point, mark my words.


Others have also made the point that this problem only occurs in Raids. I agree with this - I can't think of a time when I've had DPS lag in a 6 man quest. There are only 9 raids right now. Compare that with somewhere over 200 quests. (Granted most people run raids at end game - I get that too.) It would seem a lot simpler to me to alter those raids to stop the "swarm the boss" method that is really causing this lag. (I really likes one posters idea of changing the spawn rate of gnolls in part 4 of Shroud - that was very innovative.)

Another good idea I've heard is to bump raids down to 10 man groups - dungeon scaling would by default handle in a fair manner the necessary drop in difficulty, so why not?


I would like to see this tested on Lammannia first. I've even posted a thread on the Lammannia forum to put together (another) Shroud DPS Lag test. My suggestion is roll out each change on a step by step basis. Change the physics first, and allow us to test it. Maybe it will be enough.



/signed

[eonfreon]

That's not a logical conclusion.

The thing people are complaining about here is not that DPS lag is being addressed, but that TWF characters are having their relative number of attacks reduced unless they buy it back with a new STWF feat.

The reason the developer is making that change is not based on DPS lag or complaints about DPS lag. As explained in the first post, it is because he considers TWF to be too powerful compared to THF, and wanted them to have similar damage.

Exactly. And the only way to buy it back is with an additional Feat that has not been defined in Prereq costs.
It's bad enough that it costs a Feat.
But if it costs further build points or requires +4 Tomes or BAB requirements that some classes or class splits cannot acquire, then it really adds to the "pain".

[Daehawk]

And that's a buff to THF builds, who did not previously have a way to get two Smites simultaneously. That's in addition to them not being nerfed like TWFs are...

Yup they weren't able to get 2. But TWF Paladins with Exalted Smite now have the ability to get 3 smites from 1 smite. So it's a +1 more smite chance to both TWF and THF.

[Angelus_dead]

Unfortunately, to calculate the actual distance, you need to sqrt. This would occur, say, to find out if a target is next to another. :)
As already explained, you don't need to actually calculate the distance to compare it to the weapon reach. Instead of comparing (distance<weapon_reach) you can do (distance*distance<weapon_reach*weapon_reach). The latter choice is easier on the server because a sqrt is much slower than a multiply.

[Hecore]

Count me among the ranks of TWF that dislike the proposed change. Monks would be the heaviest hit; full str to off-hand wraps and quick attacks is the only thing that keeps them competitive w/ other dps. It'd also make wind stance the ~only~ stance worth using, unless you give a lot more love to fire, water, and earth.

This also kills a lot of multi-class builds. I realize Turbine has tried to make pure-classing much more attractive with capstones and 80% of all players seem to single-class anyway at this point, so please stop trying to erase the last few percent.

Couldn't you just make TWF hits deal 2x damage and be done with it if too many calculations is the concern? Damage dice would get rolled once and doubled, and special effects (Deception, trip chances, etc) get rolled twice? I just don't think the damage gap is quite as large as you make it out to be, especially considering that TWF requires 17 dex and two weapons.

[Creeper]

Don't forget that you said this several pages ago Chai:



I am reserving my judgement for when this is tested. Maybe I will have the same opinion as you, and maybe I will not. Until then, heres your nerfed TWF.


It hasn't been tested yet, so...

[Newtons_Apple]

So, translating the actual attacks to the new system, you have now

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 110% 110%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) dont really know
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 110%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 110%
20 [Other] 100% 100%


And you will have in the future with your proposed changes

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%


So you are effectively nerfing all the twf, and paladins and fighters get the biggest hits... (well, and tempest 1 too)
You really nerf paladins even more cause for paladins smites and sacrifices allways went twice, now they will got half the time... [/QUOTE]



Very good point on the Paladin Smite proc rate - I hadn't thought of that.

[Sirslapemsack]

What would then be the difference if yo had say, 2 healers 1 bard and 1 caster in a shroud along with 8 rangers?? They would still be attacking just as fast as they do NOW. How does this fix lag again? by making ppl spend extra feats to do the SAME thing they do now???

[Cetus]

That's not a logical conclusion.

The thing people are complaining about here is not that DPS lag is being addressed, but that TWF characters are having their relative number of attacks reduced unless they buy it back with a new STWF feat.

The reason the developer is making that change is not based on DPS lag or complaints about DPS lag. As explained in the first post, it is because he considers TWF to be too powerful compared to THF, and wanted them to have similar damage.

Perhaps I had difficulty understanding the real motivation behind this change, was that the real reason for this? That TWF is so much more powerful than THF? Yet the OP states they kinda overdid it with the ESOS.

I don't know what to make of this, all I do know is that it was explicitly stated that attack speed bonuses are altered for the worse and glancing blows no longer apply while in motion and thats enough for me to freak out.

[Aashrym]

Okay, it took a while to catch up on this thread ;)

A_D has a great idea with his "opportunist" idea for rogues to and doublestrike. I like it.

STWF is in no way a nerf to anyone. It's bonus to builds that get it. IE. Rangers if it's free and fighters who have the feats, and splash fighter who get some extra feats. Fighters and Rangers should have benefits over other classes with TWF styles IMO ;)

The percentages to proc offhand and doublestrike can still be adjusted and the Turbine has shown they are listening to feedback and willing to do so. I appreciate that.

I would like to add a suggestion. Dex bonuses to offhand proc and to doublestrike proc. I'm pretty sure I saw Aesop and A_D both mention it with the offhand attack but I think it's viable to add DPS to any build using extra dex.

[Darksolar]

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
Tempest I 0 +5% 100% 85%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 95%
Tempest III +5%* +5% 105% 100%
LW Master 0 +20% 100% 100%
Wind IV +10% +10% 110% 90%
Zeal +10% +10% 110% 90%
Alacrity +10% +10% 110% 90%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

Wind is 2.5% per tier on both MH/OH as well Zeal and Alacrity give it to both MH/OH
Fastest could be 14Pal/6Rgr 110%/95% (harsh to build)
Ranger sits at 105%/100% (still best dual wielders except for above maybe)
Unknown how 18Rgr/1-2Mnk would work as 107.5%/102.5% possible to cap the OH at 100% no matter what
Rogues are 100%/80% could give rogues a level 16 or 19(feat) only special ability(Light Weapon Master) granting them 20% OH when they wield a light weapon in OH getting 100%/100%

This gets rid of Superior Two Weapon Fighting Feat still makes rangers the best dual wielders but makes everyone else close.

Are Zeal/Alacrity still giving bonus's to attack speed with MH or just to double strike and I don't know exactly how these are affecting 2H users that would be nice to add to the original post.

[Borror0]

That's not true (or you switched to a different "it" from what Vvaanjilavv had been talking about).
Oops. You're right.

It is item number 5 that's the painful nerf to some builds, and it's that change which has negligible real benefit to DPS lag (#4 is also really minimal). If they're allowing STWF to bring back the current 100% offhand attack ratio, then the change is merely a nerf to feat slots and dex/BAB flexibility, which does nothing to reduce the server work during a raid battle (unless the characters were unable to fit STWF).
I know. In fact, my first real post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2990810#post2990810) in this thread suggested them to move the nerf portion of the change to a future update.

Backwards?
No.

not so fast bor.. we still need to check if it works :)
I'm assuming it will work, otherwise there is no point for any debate.

[Mister_Peace]

In other news ...
Turbine announces New Sale on +3 Lesser Hearts of Deconstruct Greensteel!

[Paragon]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

This seems like a good proposition. However, it would still reduce the DPS output of a Tempest III ranger. As I understand it, Tempest III currently gets five offhand hooks per four attacks, putting an equivalent proc rate at 125%. This change would turn out just fine for most of us only if Tempest bonuses still stacked with STWF allowing for a total of 105% on-hand and 120% off-hand. In fact, that might actually increase DPS by a very slight amount, since on-hand does more damage.

The question is, will Tempest III rangers be able to also pick up STWF and get that 120% off-hand proc chance?

As it stands it can be very difficult to justify rangers against barbarians in epic content, the ranger needs all the help he/she can get.

[SisAmethyst]

Are Zeal/Alacrity still giving bonus's to attack speed with MH or just to double strike and I don't know exactly how these are affecting 2H users that would be nice to add to the original post.

As Eladrin posted in the first post:


The Fighter Alacrity capstone, and the Paladin spell Zeal would be changed to a +10% bonuses to double strike.

[Daehawk]

In other news ...
Turbine announces New Sale on +3 Lesser Hearts of Deconstruct Greensteel!

Hmm...I'll wait for the +3 Greater Decon Greensteel hearts =P returns more mats. :D

[Borror0]

No but they are SAYING its due to DPS lag.
Eladrin clearly stated that the nerf portion of this change was due to the fact he felt TWF was too powerful compared to THF:

"I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)"

If Eladrin would have wanted, he could have fixed DPS lag without nerfing TWF DPS. He felt it was a good opportunity to do it now since he was playing with the values anyhow but it was not necessary. The change that reduce the likelihood of DPS is the removal of detection checks for the off-hand, not the nerf to TWF DPS.

[Angelus_dead]

STWF is in no way a nerf to anyone. It's bonus to builds that get it. IE. Rangers if it's free and fighters who have the feats, and splash fighter who get some extra feats.
One kind of nerf is the proxy nerf, where the alternatives to an option are made more powerful. The option itself has not directly changed, but its relative position has weakened due to other things getting stronger.

For example, the introduction of TOD rings with Holy Burst was a proxy nerf for Monk builds using Kama or Quarterstaff. Likewise, adding an STWF ability which is only affordable to Fighters or Tempests is a proxy nerf to all other dual-wielding builds.


Fighters and Rangers should have benefits over other classes with TWF styles IMO
They already have a variety of benefits, and now they're getting more. The important question is if a TWF Fighter deserve to have his relative DPS increased compared to a TWF Rogue.

[k1ngp1n]

As already explained, you don't need to actually calculate the distance to compare it to the weapon reach. Instead of comparing (distance<weapon_reach) you can do (distance*distance<weapon_reach*weapon_reach). The latter choice is easier on the server because a sqrt is much slower than a multiply.

Edit: Math fail. Too tired.

[Angelus_dead]

The change that reduce the likelihood of DPS is the removal of detection checks for the off-hand
That's one of them, but switching Zeal and capstone from 10% speed into a 10% chance of +1 attack was another. Either way activating Zeal will increase your (THF) attacks in X seconds from 100 to 110, but the old version would also increase the number of physics checks to 110, while the new method piggybacks the added attacks on regular swings.

[hydra_ex]

5 multiplies and 3 additions is faster than a sqrt? Interesting. But i can see it, depending on the size of the integers used.

You'll have to do the multiplying anyway, since you have sqrt(sum(square(x,y,z))) > floating point [or whatever they use]. A_D says sum(square(x,y,z))>square(s) takes less effort.

At least, that's my understanding.

I wonder if it would be less intensive to have a system of polar co-ordinates centered on a raid boss, then simply check radii.

[Chai]

Don't forget that you said this several pages ago Chai:



It hasn't been tested yet, so...

Im still there dude, still there.

[noinfo]

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

I actually don't mind the idea behind the changes, less calculations=less lag. It is a balancing game now to try and get the formular right and I am sure people are very greatful that you have come right out before even putting on Lam and discussing it.

Just a couple of things since you are trying to ballance 2 handed vs 2 weapon is that the latter requires a extra feat and double the weapons grind. The weapon grind I don't mind as you can mix and match benefits which I believe ballances things out, but there is an extra feat involved and this should not be discounted.

Also how bout a review of grazing hits while at it?...

Sorry had to try...

[Chai]

You'll have to do the multiplying anyway, since you have sqrt(sum(square(x,y,z))) > floating point [or whatever they use]. A_D says sum(square(x,y,z))>square(s) takes less effort.

At least, that's my understanding.

I wonder if it would be less intensive to have a system of polar co-ordinates centered on a raid boss, then simply check radii.

Or we could just go back to hex. :D

I take a five foot step and full attack with full power attack. heh.

[Vengeance777]

Will this fix the massive lag spikes everyone gets when running to the shrine/chests in Shroud after everything's dead? Still want to know what causes that. The DPS is long over, something else has to be causing it.

[Sirslapemsack]

I have a question as far as a way to reduce lag altogether. Say you have a rogue backstabbing for 9d6+16. (just an example) instead of the game rolling 9 seperate dice, why not one roll with a floor of 25 in this example. 9d6 gives floor of 9+16=25. Then with max roll of 54+16. so basically youd be making one roll with a base giving damage from 25-70. Thats one roll as opposed to 9. similair things could be done accross the board for all classes.

[Philam]

This change as a whole leaves a sour taste in my mouth. You're changing a fundamental aspect of a loved combat style. There is nothing cooler to me than watching Fozzie tear through things at mind numbing speeds.

So just how slowly will we swing now? Here is my point: people expect their Monks and other TWF's to swing fast - it's what they're supposed to do. So now what - will I be sounding out the bionic man sound effect in my head everytime I swing? A monk or a Ranger swinging slowly would just feel wrong.


Yes, TWF causes DPS lag. But removing the cause of a problem doesn't solve the problem, it merely masks it. There will be some unknown addition in the future for TWF'rs, and I guarantee the "problem" will rear it's ugly head down the road at some point, mark my words.


Others have also made the point that this problem only occurs in Raids. I agree with this - I can't think of a time when I've had DPS lag in a 6 man quest. There are only 9 raids right now. Compare that with somewhere over 200 quests. (Granted most people run raids at end game - I get that too.) It would seem a lot simpler to me to alter those raids to stop the "swarm the boss" method that is really causing this lag. (I really likes one posters idea of changing the spawn rate of gnolls in part 4 of Shroud - that was very innovative.)

Another good idea I've heard is to bump raids down to 10 man groups - dungeon scaling would by default handle in a fair manner the necessary drop in difficulty, so why not?


I would like to see this tested on Lammannia first. I've even posted a thread on the Lammannia forum to put together (another) Shroud DPS Lag test. My suggestion is roll out each change on a step by step basis. Change the physics first, and allow us to test it. Maybe it will be enough.

Well said! Bottom line is the devs have already made up their mind! This is just a polite way of saying its coming! It's a BAD idea and I hope the devs follow the overall player base sentiment and don't implement it!!! DA was a bad idea and suppose to fix the lag and it did not work! Do not take us for the fools, you devs have already made up your minds, but don't do it!!

Ph

[Alintalkin]

Well now before I log for the night just thought I would say:
R.I.P
Monk, Rogue, and Warchanter, and battle clerics/fvs/arcanes.
R.I.P
Diversity.
R.I.P
Twitch THF's

Let a new era reign.

Edit: btw this is by far the fastest growing thread I have seen, and most of it isn't saying "Nice idea."
Yes I understand that this is to fix "lag" but the DPS lag is in most part caused by outdated servers. Replace/update servers and I am willing to bet an ingame copper piece that you will see DPS lag decrease.
Turbine, there are many customers that have invested time and money into their builds. Many GS items. If you do this it will affect the vast majority of the DDO population, like my first post in this thread I ask again, please don't do this.

[Chai]

Well now before I log for the night just thought I would say:
R.I.P
Monk, Rogue, and Warchanter, and battle clerics/fvs/arcanes.
R.I.P
Diversity.
R.I.P
Twitch THF's

Let a new era reign. For the worst.

Edit: btw this is by far the fastest growing thread I have seen, and most of it isn't saying "Nice idea."

This is just due to min maxers gravitating to the most powerful thing in the game, and stamping them out, cookie cutter style. If the game didnt require you to min max so much and cater to this mentality that you are either effective or youre gimped, you could build whatever you wanted to.

[Aspenor]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/DevinDamnation/ManBearPig.png

[Daehawk]

Will this fix the massive lag spikes everyone gets when running to the shrine/chests in Shroud after everything's dead? Still want to know what causes that. The DPS is long over, something else has to be causing it.

It's a part of DPS lag. It's the servers catching up.

If you TWF Chaosblades like my rogue does at the moment in Part 1 you can tell how bad the DPS lag is. Next time I'm in there I might fraps it to show you.

But basically this is what happens. You can see the +1 Repairs scrolling across the screen at a normal pace. But then once I move away from the portal they rapidly scroll the screen till I get over to another portal and start hitting it. Once at the next portal it will go back to scrolling at a normal pace and stacks up the ones that didn't show before I'd assume. Since after all the portals are done the +1's sometimes spam all the way to the chest and once I open it.

[xt851231]

Wind Stance not being optimal for every fighting style isn't bad. We're considering doing something with Water Stance to make it a preferable staff stance, though Sun Stance's strength boost could also be appealing.

But what makes this game great is the flexiblity of the choice you can make. these changes just reduced the play style that you can choose from. compare to the d&d..it's already reduced of the options that you can make of multi-class from the potential great loss of enchancement. Now..these moves will just reduce it further. i can accept reduce dps. i can accept the change of how the combat is doing. but the only thing that i can't accept is the loss of the soul of this game.and a much fixed play style is definitly not what attracted me into this game.

[twoton]

Face it what the real story behind all of this is the fact that monks are now to uber and they need to nerf them and this is how they are going to do it instead of fixing code.

[Tolero]

Just a reminder to make sure that feedback is kept in the forum guidelines. (most everyone is doing a great job, and only a few tempers have flared beyond the appropriate point, so keep it up!)

I wanted to take a moment to respond to two comments expressed in the thread. Dungeon Alert, and hardware.

We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

I've also seen "Dungeon Alert didn't fix lag" comments. I'd like to take a moment to walk down feedback memory lane - there was a point in time which every day that I interacted with community I could find scores of lag complaints from users at all levels of the game. The comments would be on the forums in multiple threads, in posts responding to unrelated topics, in facebook comments, twitter comments, in the chat channels, in guild chats, exit surveys, off-site chats, new player comments.... There was definitely something "up" so Tarrant and I aggregated this issue constantly to the team. Performance studies were conducted many a late night targeting the worst culprit. This was discussed at length in the Dungeon Alert initial announcement.

Fast forward to the post-DA/new hardware DDO world, and the constant hum of lag comments became a drought... we'd still see comments here and there, but it had significantly nose dived, and tended to come up the most in the forums. We kept our eye on it when we saw comments crop up. Aggregation denotes that the comments are coming from the higher level, more experienced players in the higher level content. Generally speaking, newer players - where a bulk of the population currently is - are not yet skilled enough with character builds nor are they often high enough to be playing in the content where the complaints come from. They also are not as "engaged" as older players, and don't hit the forums as often as their veteran counterparts. So again, another wave of investigations focusing on these areas, bringing us to the current discussion.

Do keep providing feedback, assessing Eladrin's proposed changes, but I'd like to ask that "hardware" and "dungeon alert doom" comments subside, as they derail the discussion and are not helping the developers to further their work and investigations. Thanks for your participation everyone!

[IronClan]

Couldn't agree more...another huge mistake of making this game F2P.....anyone with an internet connection can play this game now. Not saying that's a bad thing, but if people playing on prehistoric machines are borking everyone else's play perhaps this should be addressed before a massive combat nerf.

This and what you quoted are completely and utterly untrue, and do not reflect the reality of how client server networking functions... You two are describing peer to peer networking and no major multiplayer game has used anything that laughable since the early 90's.

Please don't perpetuate absurd misconceptions.

[Daehawk]

*snip snip*

Tolero shouldn't you be sleeping in your soft bed by now? It's midnight there. Yeah I saw the cube came through was thinking who was up out there this late at night.

[twoton]

please sign if you DON'T want TWF nerfed

[Tolero]

Tolero shouldn't you be sleeping in your soft bed by now? It's midnight there. Yeah I saw the cube came through was thinking who was up out there this late at night.

Bah, sleep is for those who aren't keeping an eye on the premium account issues :p I figure I can kill two birds with one stone aggregating in here since I'm up anyway.

[Sirslapemsack]

ill sign, but its gonna happen regardless of what the paying customers want. :(

[Aashrym]

One kind of nerf is the proxy nerf, where the alternatives to an option are made more powerful. The option itself has not directly changed, but its relative position has weakened due to other things getting stronger.

For example, the introduction of TOD rings with Holy Burst was a proxy nerf for Monk builds using Kama or Quarterstaff. Likewise, adding an STWF ability which is only affordable to Fighters or Tempests is a proxy nerf to all other dual-wielding builds.


They already have a variety of benefits, and now they're getting more. The important question is if a TWF Fighter deserve to have his relative DPS increased compared to a TWF Rogue.

Oh, sure... I agree with ya and then you point out a flaw which boils down to power creep. ;)

I can't disagree with the relative standing between classes on that argument because it's definitely a valid opinion and I see your point. I just think fighters or tempest rangers should be better than other dual wielders. Difference of opinion.

[Cyr]

snip

Tolero I must say that commenting in length with your arguments over specific things mentioned in thread and then saying that it is not productive to comment is a lot like saying "I'm going to state Turbine's position on this, but don't comment about it because it's off limits"

I hope that you notice this might rub people the wrong way.

[arminius]

Ok ok, we did complain about the lag in a few raids.

Now we see the consequences. We realize that our complaining was a mistake. We take it all back.

Does that make it all better? We promise we'll be good. Really, we will this time, we promise. Will that make you stop hurting us? We'd really like you to just stop. Please?

[eonfreon]

Just a reminder to make sure that feedback is kept in the forum guidelines. (most everyone is doing a great job, and only a few tempers have flared beyond the appropriate point, so keep it up!)

I wanted to take a moment to respond to two comments expressed in the thread. Dungeon Alert, and hardware.

We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.



Tolero, surely you realize that the majority of the anger is not the proposed lag fix, but rather the inclusion of a TWF nerf in it.
There is absolutely no need for a reduction of chances of hitting with the offhand attack simply because the offhand attack would be piggybacking off the main hand for collision checks.
Mobs are just not that good at ducking and weaving in combat. I've seldom missed a collision check on my offhand when I connected with my main hand. Far, far seldom then under the proposed changes.

And on top of that, the developers do propose a way to get back to 100% but at an increased cost which can break many builds, including pure builds for crying out loud, and don't give us any idea of what the real cost will be besides the obvious Feat cost.

And "doublestrikes"? Really? Especially at 10%? So you're changing a 100% chance at more attacks to 10% chance of another attack?
That's also hard to swallow.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Wow...looking back at this whole thing...all the stuff that has been said to each other, probably all the negative rep that has been dished out...over something that has not even happened yet is......what a DISAPPOINTMENT.......this is how we react to things yet we call ourselves the most evolved dominant speices on the plant.....all I have to say to that is....







HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


That truely is humorous, and over a freakin' video game too.

I admit to, take back and apologize for some of the things I have said.....in the end this will work or it won't...Turbine will have to make it a somewhat appealing change to keep players or the game will die...so there will be resolution either way.

Let's just enjoy what we have now and help the change become suitable, in the end we are the ones paying...so we have the final choice...unless you choose to be mindless drones and tolerate things you do not want...then to you I will say goodbye...whether I stay or fly.

[kingfisher]

i dont understand why everytime you try to fix something the players have lose out. i know that its your game and all, but we are your customers right? why should any change made to improve the game automatically lessen the game too? This change (ie nerf) is not going to end well.

also, it seems clear that the biggest winner in this change is turbine, who will make a big ol pile a money from all the respecs and such from those that stick around. that's greedy.

[Tolero]

Tolero, surely you realize that the majority of the anger is not the proposed lag fix, but rather the inclusion of a TWF nerf in it.

I don't mind discussion about the TWF changes, sorry if that was not clear. There has been (and continues to be) a lot of good discussion around that, and I'd like for that to continue. It's just not as helpful to us when we're trying to go through the feedback when it starts getting derailed with "fix the hardware" "no you fix your computer" "no you fix YOUR computer!" scuffles =/

[IronClan]

They did.

Yep here's the relivant quote for anyone who glossed over it:


"I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting."

Pretty black and white they know that TWF is overpowered and they intend to do something about it...

I think the double strike system looks worse on paper than Dungeon alert simply because it veers so far off D&D... At least with DA you could (if inclined to do so) imagine a scenario where an irritated DM tells his players "okay well if you're just going to run past everything, the Hobgoblins you left behind are sending up an alert to prepare the entire dungeon for you..." Hell he wouldn't even say that... just meet the party with an ambush around the next corner full of buffed, well prepared "elite guards" and let the first couple rounds of "surprise initiative" with "prepared defense" pole arm damage (pikes set against a charge) make them sweat it out.

[Tarnoc]

So i read this as THF doesnt lag in say the shroud....


B.S. ive been in full barb groups with so much dps lag you cant move while you try and run from part 1 to part 5......

this really has nothing to do with weapon attacks....

the dps lag has to do with procs

and well i can think of dozens of top geared THF barbs with a handful of proc gaurds that are just as much lag machines as any TWF.....and notice that typically its barbs who can have the open slots to have all those gaurd items as most TWF will need them for other stats or wat not .....

guess were all making 18base str 18 base con barbs and dump stat were ever and dont forget to make them wf ....and well kill all the clerics and make wf wizzys and sorcs to just heal everything...and we can just burn out thier servers and force them to realize that maybe it has nothing to do with TWF

[DragonKiller]

I wanted to take a moment to respond to two comments expressed in the thread. Dungeon Alert, and hardware.

*snip* *snip*


T - I would just like to say, that have you ever thought that... maybe just maybe... people have gotten used to that pain? I rarely quest in any quest, any instance, any place where someone isn't lagging. And it's almost ALWAYS the entire party. So it's not just one person's system. I will grant you I can only tell you what I have seen personally, but from that observation DA hasn't solved anything. Yet here we have a Turbine employee telling us "It solved lot's of problems, because no one is complaining about it to us." Sorry if I don't completely believe this. I know several guldies that have stopped playing because they got tired of the lag, and not just DPS lag.

Because I continue on a daily to see non-DPS lag, and still see Turbine touting how great DA is, even though I think if you read through this tread you will see a lot of people seem to disagree with the fact that it fixed lag, you guys still say "it's gotten a lot better". I'm guessing you will also be telling us "DPS Lag is a lot better" after these changes, even if we disagree.

So my original question still remains. If this makes it onto live servers, and your customers say that it didn't fix (or make a major dent in) the lag, is Turbine willing to back out the change? Or are we getting this in some form or fashion no matter what we say, and it will always be part of the game?

[Daehawk]

Bah, sleep is for those who aren't keeping an eye on the premium account issues :p I figure I can kill two birds with one stone aggregating in here since I'm up anyway.

Ah gotcha. Heh good luck with that situation. Hopefully it comes to a resolution soon.

------------

One thing I was thinking about while I was remembering the spamming of numbers scrolling on the screen.

Eladrin do you think allowing more than one set of numbers to appear on the screen would be helpful? Like a change to the UI design a bit to free up less of the spamming that happens after combat. If the numbers were allowed to appear faster than they would leave faster.


Something like.(Old SS I took for Keeper, just Photoshop on some UI stuff in like 1 minute.)
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9207/uichange.th.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/uichange.jpg/)


Red being Inbound Damage at you.
Green being Inbound Healing to you.
Purple being Outbound damage done by you.

Instead of having Red and Green as one scroll and Purple as another, this would allow more things to appear on the screen. Not sure how it would effect the servers, but it would allow the servers to display the numbers faster in the feedback section and wouldn't have to store them while it scroll spams.

[hydra_ex]

Or we could just go back to hex. :D

I take a five foot step and full attack with full power attack. heh.

Well, many raid bosses are pretty stationary, and its against those that we have the most problem with lag.

Trigger the grid after Harry 5, Horoth or Nyth haven't moved for 20 seconds.

Keep a grid on Velah/Harry 4 since they don't move. Coding that in though might be a nightmare, but it would significantly decrease calculations from checking collisions to simply comparing radii with weapon range.

Or even just set up certain areas for certain weapons around him, and check to see if the players are in that area. That's just a simply statement. The cycling through each area might be inefficient though...

I can dream, can't I? ;)

[Calebro]

Tolero, surely you realize that the majority of the anger is not the proposed lag fix, but rather the inclusion of a TWF nerf in it.
There is absolutely no need for a reduction of chances of hitting with the offhand attack simply because the offhand attack would be piggybacking off the main hand for collision checks.
Mobs are just not that good at ducking and weaving in combat. I've seldom missed a collision check on my offhand when I connected with my main hand. Far, far seldom then under the proposed changes.

And on top of that, the developers do propose a way to get back to 100% but at an increased cost which can break many builds, including pure builds for crying out loud, and don't give us any idea of what the real cost will be besides the obvious Feat cost.

And "doublestrikes"? Really? Especially at 10%? So you're changing a 100% chance at more attacks to 10% chance of another attack?
That's also hard to swallow.

1) The newer set of numbers provided are almost equal to what they were before in the long run. Which, I might add, is counter prodocutive to the original intent, which was to nerf TWF to bridge the gap some between TWF and THF. So you've won that battle.

2) Double Strike wil replace Alacrity.
Alacrity allowed a 10% increase in speed, thus raising DPS by 10%
Double Strike allows for a 10% chance on every hit to score a second hit. On average, this will allow for 1 extra stike in 10. That's a 10% increase.
They're the same exact thing, but the new way will reduce lag by requiring less checks.

There's no more need to argue this anymore IMO.

[Eljin]

signed

[eonfreon]

I don't mind discussion about the TWF changes, sorry if that was not clear. There has been (and continues to be) a lot of good discussion around that, and I'd like for that to continue. It's just not as helpful to us when we're trying to go through the feedback when it starts getting derailed with "fix the hardware" "no you fix your computer" "no you fix YOUR computer!" scuffles =/

I understand but that's Eladrin's fault for couching it ever-so-slightly in a "reduce dps lag" proposal.
Even if he does spell out that the proposed TWF nerf is separate and is done because he considers TWF overpowering, that fact gets lost when a whole new system is implemented it is still "hidden" within a "help dps" concept.
Plus the fact that it can be "bought back" but at an increased and largely nebulous cost.
It is very irritating.
ANd you'll have to pop up here every page to remind people that "upgrade hardware" and "DA didn't get rid of lag".
Look above your very post. Another such post appeared.

So since you wanted feedback:
Get rid of any idea of STWF and move every thing on that chart up by one. Make untrained at 40% and GTWF at 100%.
Leave Zeal, Tempest, Windstance, and Fighter Capstone (and any Alacrity bonuses) as is and abandon the idea of Double Strikes.

[mons]

Just a reminder to make sure that feedback is kept in the forum guidelines. (most everyone is doing a great job, and only a few tempers have flared beyond the appropriate point, so keep it up!)

I wanted to take a moment to respond to two comments expressed in the thread. Dungeon Alert, and hardware.

We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

I've also seen "Dungeon Alert didn't fix lag" comments. I'd like to take a moment to walk down feedback memory lane - there was a point in time which every day that I interacted with community I could find scores of lag complaints from users at all levels of the game. The comments would be on the forums in multiple threads, in posts responding to unrelated topics, in facebook comments, twitter comments, in the chat channels, in guild chats, exit surveys, off-site chats, new player comments.... There was definitely something "up" so Tarrant and I aggregated this issue constantly to the team. Performance studies were conducted many a late night targeting the worst culprit. This was discussed at length in the Dungeon Alert initial announcement.

Fast forward to the post-DA/new hardware DDO world, and the constant hum of lag comments became a drought... we'd still see comments here and there, but it had significantly nose dived, and tended to come up the most in the forums. We kept our eye on it when we saw comments crop up. Aggregation denotes that the comments are coming from the higher level, more experienced players in the higher level content. Generally speaking, newer players - where a bulk of the population currently is - are not yet skilled enough with character builds nor are they often high enough to be playing in the content where the complaints come from. They also are not as "engaged" as older players, and don't hit the forums as often as their veteran counterparts. So again, another wave of investigations focusing on these areas, bringing us to the current discussion.

Do keep providing feedback, assessing Eladrin's proposed changes, but I'd like to ask that "hardware" and "dungeon alert doom" comments subside, as they derail the discussion and are not helping the developers to further their work and investigations. Thanks for your participation everyone!

What will be your stance when say all these nerfs happen and the DPS lag still exists?

[Tolero]

T - I would just like to say, that have you ever thought that... maybe just maybe... people have gotten used to that pain? I rarely quest in any quest, any instance, any place where someone isn't lagging. And it's almost ALWAYS the entire party. So it's not just one person's system. I will grant you I can only tell you what I have seen personally, but from that observation DA hasn't solved anything. Yet here we have a Turbine employee telling us "It solved lot's of problems, because no one is complaining about it to us." Sorry if I don't completely believe this. I know several guldies that have stopped playing because they got tired of the lag, and not just DPS lag.

Because I continue on a daily to see non-DPS lag, and still see Turbine touting how great DA is, even though I think if you read through this tread you will see a lot of people seem to disagree with the fact that it fixed lag, you guys still say "it's gotten a lot better". I'm guessing you will also be telling us "DPS Lag is a lot better" after these changes, even if we disagree.

So my original question still remains. If this makes it onto live servers, and your customers say that it didn't fix (or make a major dent in) the lag, is Turbine willing to back out the change? Or are we getting this in some form or fashion no matter what we say, and it will always be part of the game?

I'm pretty intimately familiar with "tolerance" levels of the community after all this time (even with all the new folks in the mix since F2P launch), and it is definitely not a case of "apathy".

As for seeing non-dps lag, on your end, there is no way for you to know when you experience lag in your quest what the person in another quest is doing that could be causing it. It's the nature of the way instances relate to one another in game. Your waterworks quest could be sharing with an instance of the marketplace, a full shroud run, a partial shroud run, korthos island, someone with a hireling that had a pathing issue in Von2 (which was fixed fortunately in the last update), etc. This is what our performance studies are for. We sit down and study the poor performance, then start parsing the data to see what is being so expensive. Sometimes it's very clear, and sometimes it requires more digging on the part of the teams. To a point, there will always be some moments of lag because there are so many different things that relate to it. It really is like illness - you can't prevent every cold and flu, but you can reduce the likelihood of catching it for better living :)

[Aashrym]

Removed. This post appears to be in a thread I did not intend. :)

[zztophat]

Not signed, if it helps lag it helps lag.

[Angelus_dead]

2) Double Strike wil replace Alacrity.
Alacrity allowed a 10% increase in speed, thus raising DPS by 10%
Double Strike allows for a 10% chance on every hit to score a second hit. On average, this will allow for 1 extra stike in 10. That's a 10% increase.
They're the same exact thing, but the new way will reduce lag by requiring less checks.
That equivalence only works for THF or S&B characters. For TWF and ranged it is a nerf, because Doublestrike only applies to the mainhand melee attack.

They could have had doublestrike apply to offhand attacks, but instead seem to have taken it as an opportunity to tilt things a little towards the one-weapon guys.

[Calebro]

That equivalence only works for THF or S&B characters. For TWF and ranged it is a nerf, because Doublestrike only applies to the mainhand melee attack.

They could have had doublestrike apply to offhand attacks, but instead seem to have taken it as an opportunity to tilt things a little towards the one-weapon guys.

Which, as I said, was the original intent. The fact that the numbers got raised means that the battle was won. It wasn't a complete rout of the enemy, but few battles are.

We should be happy with the changes that have been made to the original concept and see how it works out. Just my opinion.

[Cyr]

I'm pretty intimately familiar with "tolerance" levels of the community after all this time (even with all the new folks in the mix since F2P launch), and it is definitely not a case of "apathy".



Maybe the apathy complaint could be turned around to Turbine? I have seen tons of threads complaining about lag and posts complaining about lag. All of these eventually mention DA. A day does not go by in game that I do not hear a lag complaint or DA complaint. For example, yesterday I was rubber banding (full on rubber banding mind you) in the vale. No mobs were active at the time as I was in the water swimming. That was clearly not dps lag.

[eonfreon]

1) The newer set of numbers provided are almost equal to what they were before in the long run. Which, I might add, is counter prodocutive to the original intent, which was to nerf TWF to bridge the gap some between TWF and THF. So you've won that battle.

2) Double Strike wil replace Alacrity.
Alacrity allowed a 10% increase in speed, thus raising DPS by 10%
Double Strike allows for a 10% chance on every hit to score a second hit. On average, this will allow for 1 extra stike in 10. That's a 10% increase.
They're the same exact thing, but the new way will reduce lag by requiring less checks.

There's no more need to argue this anymore IMO.

I don't recall arguing with anyone.
They asked for feedback and I'm giving it.
I will consider the battle "won" when STWF is not required to get to 100% offhand attacks.
Or at least STWF is defined in a way that is "easy enough" to get.

As far as Alacrity; yes I understand that the average is nearly the same, but it could be just as easily achieved by having every 10th attack = 2 main hand attacks.

[Calebro]

I don't recall arguing with anyone.
They asked for feedback and I'm giving it.
I will consider the battle "won" when STWF is not required to get to 100% offhand attacks.
Or at least STWF is defined in a way that is "easy enough" to get.

As far as Alacrity; yes I understand that the average is nearly the same, but it could be just as easily achieved by having every 10th attack = 2 main hand attacks.

The "argument" comment wasn't directed at you specifically, but in a more general sense. As to the STWF, I give you this:



The more I think about it, the more I like STWF being implemented. Rangers essentially get it for free, making them King of TWF (as it should be).
Others now have the option if they devote enough resources (build points and stat raises) to get it.

Few are likely to do this, but the option is there. So Rangers are still TWF kings in most cases, but the extremely rare exception may occur.

[Quijonsith]

I have a question as far as a way to reduce lag altogether. Say you have a rogue backstabbing for 9d6+16. (just an example) instead of the game rolling 9 seperate dice, why not one roll with a floor of 25 in this example. 9d6 gives floor of 9+16=25. Then with max roll of 1d45+25. so basically youd be making one roll with a base giving damage from 25-70. Thats one roll as opposed to 9. similair things could be done accross the board for all classes.

Rolling 9d6 actually has a bell curve to it's results that heavily weighs it closer to average and less often towards max and minimum values while a straight 1d54+25 would be all over the place. Part of the balancing of damage outputs in DnD is that weighted factor of the rolls. The more individual dice are rolled the more consistent and average the results, such as a light monk's healing finisher is 20d4 at 20 I believe, which has much more average and consistent results than rolling 1d76+4. Rolling one die may possibly reduce lag, but it would unbalance the results.

[cdemeritt]

Bah, sleep is for those who aren't keeping an eye on the premium account issues :p I figure I can kill two birds with one stone aggregating in here since I'm up anyway.

Actually I expect you are afraid to sleep tonight... I just have to wonder if you guys were going "No... Don't make us tell them... please no...."

[archangelspeed]

Eladrin

With this new change are they going to offer STWF as a feat to all clases or will it still be stuck with rangers only?

And with this change in melee proc'ing will we possibly see multishot as a fighting stance and % chance to proc multiple arrows?

-Angel

[eonfreon]

Originally Posted by Calebro View Post

The more I think about it, the more I like STWF being implemented. Rangers essentially get it for free, making them King of TWF (as it should be).
Others now have the option if they devote enough resources (build points and stat raises) to get it.

Few are likely to do this, but the option is there. So Rangers are still TWF kings in most cases, but the extremely rare exception may occur.

LOL
And I give you this:


Leave Zeal, Tempest, Windstance, and Fighter Capstone (and any Alacrity bonuses) as is and abandon the idea of Double Strikes.

[Nevthial]

Will this fix the massive lag spikes everyone gets when running to the shrine/chests in Shroud after everything's dead? Still want to know what causes that. The DPS is long over, something else has to be causing it.

It's because people are trying to play DDO on non-top end machines. If you play on decent machine ( yes it may cost more than some make in a month) you will sometimes see everyone in your party slow down, sometimes stutter, and then they catch up while you continue to play on practically seamlessly. Turbine knows that not everyone can afford to actually purchase decent top end hardware, so they actually take on more server burden than they have to.

I'll give you an example. Most people playing DDO are playing on machines that can't handle an older game such as Fallout 3 with the graphics cranked up. Yet, they expect no lag while playing DDO with several other machines tied to the same instance as them; and thus sharing practically the same data stream. The end result: Turbine is forced to try to compensate and optimize/minimize data flow in and out. The Shroud ( like many other places) is larger, and thus it takes more data to load to EACH machine, while attempting to synchronize them all.

A few years back, I purchased computers for our guildies. We all had near top end hardware at the time. No lag on high graphics no matter where we went or what our character makeup was, with all of us sharing the same internet connection even, as long as NO ONE else grouped with us. The only lag we used to experience was if it was server wide. Now, three years later, some of us are on different machines and only the lower end ones have real lag/load issues. As I have posted in previous threads, the only way for my wife and I to keep playing how we are used to has been to upgrade at nearly every new Mod introduced. If Turbine raised the minimum requirements for playing, then each client machine could handle a larger portion of the burden than they currrently are and the game would run much , much better overall. They won't/can't do this of course, so I suppose they have decided to trim their data stream by trimming the way certain combat calculations are handled. This has fallen to the fastest combat calculations ( TWF / Monks ) as they are apparently the most prevalent and utilize the highest volume of our client side data flow. It's not much different than the lag some folks get in raids at times from disco balls, cloud spells, ect.

[Calebro]

LOL
And I give you this:

Are there paople here that can HONESTLY say that TWF didn't need a nerf?
Really?

Until ESoS was introduced, TWF was King. The fact that so many builds now use ESoS as a base, and build upon the idea that they'll have it, is cause enough to say that it's overpowered.

That leaves us back where we were before it was introduced. Because it most definitely SHOULD get the bat. That leaves us with TWF as King again. But it still needs a nerf.

This accomplishes that.


Leave Zeal, Tempest, Windstance, and Fighter Capstone (and any Alacrity bonuses) as is and abandon the idea of Double Strikes.This does not.

Now all we have to do is hit ESoS.

[Kambuk]

The changes they are proposing may help the lag problem but only as a side effect.

Facts:
If someone dissconnects in Epic Von6 white fighting the dragon everyone dies.
If someone dissconnects in part 4 or 5 of the shroud all sorts of wierd thing can happen - i.e. part 4 noone dies when portal is clicked, heals don't go off etc.

These things are not related to DPS lag as far as I have been able to tell.

I have a tempest ranger with dual Min II rapiers, everytime I raid with him everyone gets bad lag heals don't got off etc. But we don't get the everyone dies in von6 or portal wierdness in Shroud part 4.

I have a 2H build rogue with an Epic SoS never have any lag problems unless someone dissconnects.

I play from NZ with a 300ms or so latency I think this combined with the DPS from my ranger is where the real problem is, I think it is something to do with clients timing out or not responding quickly enough to a large amount of data that causes all the problems otherwise if somone dissconnected it would immediatly make the lag better rather than worse....

Easy test:
Get all the devs beating on Velah on epic with 2HF in a room and pull someones network cable out and see what happens. Repeat test with everyone using 2WF se if anything different happens.

Fix that problem 1st and then see if the DPS lag still happens.

Kambuk.

[TiranBlade]

I hate to say it as much as I like two weapon builds, I find them a little on the over powered side in DDO, I have played a lot of P&P v.3.5 and found that Two Weapon build where either hard to play or hard to access, I think since Greater Two Weapon Fighting was given a Dex of 17 and not 19 it was made very easy to access. Since it was made this way, many people swarmed at the idea of fighting with Two Weapons, if you are having issues with Two Weapon Fighting cause lag or because it is more powerful than it was originally intended, then I suggest giving it it's original prerequisites, it will cause more players to draw back off of the feat or change thier builds to make it so they qualify for it, which in case would case a major change in builds and give a balancing weakness to the build.

Now for the logistics on altering Two Weapon Fighting, I think another type of implementation would be interesting to see, but with the throwing of numbers around in percentiles it starts to become difficult to approach it with certinty, especially when you deal with the issue of having an percentage total of over 100%. If there were some way to change this implementation to include a benifit of exceeding the 100% mark.

Another suggestion I have that would not include having to have a physics check I don't believe into the design is a Character takes a larger penalty on attacks after the first one for not having the later feats. I/E


Two Weapon Fighting Change Proposal
List Title
Main Hand: [One Handed Weapon(Light Weapon)]
Off Hand: [One Handed Weapon(Light Weapon)]

Base To-Hit Penalties on attacks for fighting with two weapons.
Main Hand: One Handed Weapon [-8(-6)/-8(-6)/-8(-6)/-8(-6)]
Off Hand: One Handed Weapon [-10(-8)/-30(-28)/-40(-38)/-50(-48)]

To-Hit Penalties for fighting with the Two Weapon Fighting Feat.
Main Hand: One Handed Weapon [-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)]
Off Hand: One Handed Weapon [-4(-2)/-30(-28)/-40(-38)/-50(-48)]

To-Hit Penalties for fighting with the Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat.
Main Hand: [-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)]
Off Hand: [-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-40(-38)/-50(-48)]

To-Hit Penalties for fighting with the Greater Two Weapon Fighting Feat.
Main Hand: [-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)]
Off Hand: [-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-50(-48)]

To-Hit Penalties for fighting with the Ranger Tempest III Prestige Enhancement*.
Main Hand: [-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)]
Off Hand: [-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)/-4(-2)]

*This doesn't include the bonuses from Ranger Tempest II and III.


I think this you wouldn't have to have as many recognition protocals and your only reducing penatalies and not having to add in extra abilities that are not already there. Also it takes away from the amount of rolls that would have to be made by taking out a percentile roll.

I think this also would prevent you from having to rewrite a lot of abilites in order to match the new mechanic.

Thanks yet again for listening,
TiranBlade

EDIT: Since I realize that attacks are scaled up on the further attack chains I have altered my chart to reflect. One that note if they scaled later attacks in the chain with a penalty and not a bonus to attacks then Two Weapon Fighting would see a balance to match other fighting styles.

[IronClan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought DA fixed lag?

Ph

Yeah how many times do they have to asnwer this? He even answered this in this thread... see sig

[eonfreon]

Are there paople here that can HONESTLY say that TWF didn't need a nerf?
Really?

Until ESoS was introduced, TWF was King. The fact that so many builds now use ESoS as a base, and build upon the idea that they'll have it, is cause enough to say that it's overpowered.

That leaves us back where we were before it was introduced. Because it most definitely SHOULD get the bat. That leaves us with TWF as King again. But it still needs a nerf.

This accomplishes that.



Sure, perhaps it does need some nerf, although I don't see the huge difference that is claimed, especially since TWF is harder to build for. You need higher Dex and the full TWF Feat chain.
Exactly what sacrifices does a THF style make that it should be King? Lower Reflex Saves?

The fact that ESOS is overpowered doesn't mean that TWF is that overpowering.
At least not above THF.
And basically, S&B is just way too underpowered.

[Nevthial]

I play from NZ with a 300ms or so latency I think this combined with the DPS from my ranger is where the real problem is, I think it is something to do with clients timing out or not responding quickly enough to a large amount of data that causes all the problems otherwise if somone dissconnected it would immediatly make the lag better rather than worse.....

Yes! Everytime I mention client side, I'm a "bad guy". But it's true! LOL

[Calebro]

Sure, perhaps it does need some nerf, although I don't see the huge difference that is claimed, especially since TWF is harder to build for. You need higher Dex and the full TWF Feat chain.
Exactly what sacrifices does a THF style make that it should be King?

The fact that ESOS is overpowered doesn't mean that TWF is that overpowering.
At least not above THF.
And basically, S&B is just way too underpowered.

None. They should be fairly evenly matched. Remove ESoS from the equation and the original numbers reflect that.
The battle to raise those numbers succeeded, which was counter productive to the original intent. So the nerf isn't as large as it should be to produce the effect intended.

Now do you see my point? Barring whether you agree with it or not, do you understand it?

Oh, you snuck an edit in there. ;)

[Desteria]

What about monk unarmed attackes being faster will they still retain there superior attack rate? because if this shows done monk atatkc significantly i'm goan be REALLLLY upset about the TR heart i just bought and used form teh store to rebuidl my monk to a fist fighter, and i had to buy extra popints to do it!..

[cdemeritt]

Ok, when I left for work there were 10 pages, now it is almost 60. I don't want to waste my weekend reading all of them. But incase this hasn't come up.

1: Thank you for discussing this with us before hand. How un-Turbine of you to raise the Cone of Silence, and let us in... After years of not being involved, this actually makes me happy, even if the subject doesn't.

2: if the Point of this change is truly to try and balance combat types, well, Not much I can argue with here... However, It is hard to say if it will be a good change or not... many classes who TWF are not going to get any compencation, and by giving the bonuses to capstones force more pure builds... this doesn't seem quite right.

However if this is about lag, as the Initial post made says, the I'd have to say there must be a better way... My math isn't great when it comes to the game, but it seems you are reducing one type of die roll but adding several others... Wouldn't it be better if you just made one Die/Damage roll per attack chain, and just used those numbers with the Plus's for each attack in the chain? seems like a much simpler way to reduce the die checks vs changing an entire combat system...

3: should this go through, as stated in the OP, I believe you should give every toon 1 free lesser heart of wood... not a +1, not a +3, just a plain old lesser... Why? many people have spent real money to respecing their toons for TWF... If done right, they have many feats invested in this... such a major looking change, to a mechanic that has been around for over 2 years now, after spending money... well, I wouldn't be happy... Some of my toons will not be affected by this, but, my plans to TR my cleric into a TWF melee cleric have been put on hold to see how this pans out... But since I built a test run first, that cleric is now likely going to have issues...


Well, I think that's All I have

[eonfreon]

None. They should be fairly evenly matched. Remove ESoS from the equation and the original numbers reflect that.
The battle to raise those numbers succeeded, which was counter productive to the original intent. So the nerf isn't as large as it should be to produce the effect intended.

Now do you see my point? Barring whether you agree with it or not, do you understand it?

Oh, you snuck an edit in there. ;)

Sorry, realized I wanted to touch on ESoS, that's why I edited it.

But let me see if I do understand you.
You are saying that the original number of a GTWF (barring Tempest 3 and Fighter Capstone) of 55% chance to have a chance to hit with the offhand equalizes the two fighting styles?
And that simply reducing it by 20% makes it still too overpowering?

[CountHenri]

Yeah how many times do they have to asnwer this? He even asnwered this in this thread... see sig

Have some rep sir - in an Epic debate it is nice to see a little voice of reason :)

Personally a reduction in lag - particularly raid lag - is worth a lot to me as a player. This is the main cause of party wipes in what should otherwise be smooth runs on Shroud for instance (it wont of course fix stupid - like a Cleric deciding to melee Harry without warning).

If it means taking a hit on the effectiveness of say my Warchanter build so be it - as long as there is a worthwhile pay off.

I applaud Turbine for throwing this issue open - it really is a no-win situation for them in that no matter what they do people will still (shrilly) scream DooooOOOOooom...

Massively hungover BTW so I hope this all made sense...

[IronClan]

Tolero I must say that commenting in length with your arguments over specific things mentioned in thread and then saying that it is not productive to comment is a lot like saying "I'm going to state Turbine's position on this, but don't comment about it because it's off limits"

I hope that you notice this might rub people the wrong way.

I think you sound like someone who doesn't want his pet peave taken away. but... He's right it's derailing the thread if you want to quote him and start a new DA thread where you can insist that he's wrong I bet he wouldn't lock it! :) Heck go for it I'll jump into it myself love a good debate and the past few days have been a fantastic resource for confirming the "pro" DA side of the argument and getting specific long standing myths from the Anti DA side shot down in a blaze of glorious wreckage by people who are actually qualified to: Devs themselves =)

[eonfreon]

Have some rep sir - in an Epic debate it is nice to see a little voice of reason :)

Personally a reduction in lag - particularly raid lag - is worth a lot to me as a player. This is the main cause of party wipes in what should otherwise be smooth runs on Shroud for instance (it wont of course fix stupid - like a Cleric deciding to melee Harry without warning).

If it means taking a hit on the effectiveness of say my Warchanter build so be it - as long as there is a worthwhile pay off.

I applaud Turbine for throwing this issue open - it really is a no-win situation for them in that no matter what they do people will still (shrilly) scream DooooOOOOooom...

Massively hungover BTW so I hope this all made sense...

LOL.
You are falling for the trap that the TWF nerf is related to the dps lag fix.
It's not.
It's separate.
The problem is that both are presented in the original post even if it's explained in that same post that they are separate.
I realize that you're hung over, but many, many people are making this same mistake.

[Calebro]

Sorry, realized I wanted to touch on ESoS, that's why I edited it.

But let me see if I do understand you.
You are saying that the original number of a GTWF (barring Tempest 3 and Fighter Capstone) of 55% chance to have a chance to hit with the offhand equalizes the two fighting styles?
And that simply reducing it by 20% makes it still too overpowering?

Not still too overpowering, no. But that's close to what I'm saying. Since you brought up S&B, I'll repeat what I was saying before.

S&B will never be a valid choice until something is done to nerf both THF and TWF a bit. There's just no way to boost S&B enough on it's own to make that feasible. So THF and TWF need to suffer a bit in order for that to happen.
With the original changes to both the TWF attacks and the THF glancing blows nerf, this would be much more in line to see something like S&B become viable once again. It may not have been enough on it's own, but now S&B needs a whole lot less help to be viable.

The new numbers widen that gap once again. We were so close to making S&B at least to the point where it wouldn't automatically be called Gimp.... and we lost it. :(
Granted, that wouldn't have solved all of S&B's problems, but it would have closed that gap considerably.

All the cries of "you're going to nerf my toon into oblivion" ruined what could have been a great thing for S&B users. And it only happened because people are too concerned with running the numbers, and min-maxing.
At this rate S&B will never be viable again. Ever.

Most of my melee toons are TWFers, so I understand exactly what this nerf means. And still I was happy to see it, because it would have opened up more options. The newer numbers crush that hope.

[Brother_Solar]

After reading for a very long time, I finally became too fatigued to continue and stopped on page 40. I'll catch up when I have the opportunity. I apologize if I'm belaboring arguements that have come up in the past 20 pages or so.

I thought it might be worthwhile to note:
While in Shroud part 1 recently, I went the wrong way to beat on a portal. I was alone. The rest of the melee were somewhere else beating on the correct portal. I experienced zero lag, but the rest of the party was experiencing major lag. I killed the portal by myself in the same amount of time as the party killed their portal. When they were done, they came to where I was standing and milled about confusion for a moment (shouldn't there be a portal here?) before moving on.

Is this seemingly proximity-related lag really being caused by attack rolls rather than the concentrated mass of animations on the screen?


My own personal plea:
Please, please, please do not pigeon-hole unarmed monks further into using only Wind stance. Currently, Sun stance can be feasible, but the proposed change would increase the difference in DPS from the current 8% (which is already not good) up to 13% just from using a different stance.

If you are making this change to Wind stance, please consider making changes to the other stances to make them feasible as well (such as an increase to the base damage dealt for Sun stance, and allowing the damage reduction from Mountain stance to stack with or enhance the 10/Epic DR of a level 20 monk).

[TiranBlade]

EDIT: Since I realize that attacks are scaled up on the further attack chains I have altered my chart to reflect. One that note if they scaled later attacks in the chain with a penalty and not a bonus to attacks then Two Weapon Fighting would see a balance to match other fighting styles.

Edit Applied.

[eonfreon]

Not still too overpowering, no. But that's close to what I'm saying. Since you brought up S&B, I'll repeat what I was saying before.

S&B will never be a valid choice until something is done to nerf both THF and TWF a bit. There's just no way to boost S&B enough on it's own to make that feasible. So THF and TWF need to suffer a bit in order for that to happen.
With the original changes to both the TWF attacks and the THF glancing blows nerf, this would be much more in line to see something like S&B become viable once again. It may not have been enough on it's own, but now S&B needs a whole lot less help to be viable.

The new numbers widen that gap once again. We were so close to making S&B at least to the point where it wouldn't automatically be called Gimp.... and we lost it. :(
Granted, that wouldn't have solved all of S&B's problems, but it would have closed that gap considerably.

All the cries of "you're going to nerf my toon into oblivion" ruined what could have been a great thing for S&B users. And it only happened because people are too concerned with running the numbers, and min-maxing.
At this rate S&B will never be viable again. Ever.

Most of my melee toons are TWFers, so I understand exactly what this nerf means. And still I was happy to see it, because it would have opened up more options. The newer numbers crush that hope.

Well, I'm sorry. But it would have required a better change period.
The insane hit points and to-hit of MOBS at end game is what makes THF and TWF necessary.
And nerfing builds to this extent without a free respec and greensteel deconstruction would have been bad, IMO.

[Calebro]

Well, I'm sorry. But it would have required a better change period.
The insane hit points and to-hit of MOBS at end game is what makes THF and TWF necessary.
And nerfing builds to this extent without a free respec and greensteel reconstruction would have been bad, IMO.

Right, which is why they raised the numbers. Everyone should be satisfied now, or at least willing to give it a shot.
The end result is a whole lot less of a nerf that people are willing to admit to because they like the drama.
Personally, I don't think it was enough.
That being the case, I don't see anything to complain about.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Well, I'm sorry. But it would have required a better change period.
The insane hit points and to-hit of MOBS at end game is what makes THF and TWF necessary.
And nerfing builds to this extent without a free respec and greensteel deconstruction would have been bad, IMO.

I think they will make this work...I wouldn't worry about it....why?...because they have to if they want to continue to generate revenue.

It may be a change, but I don't see it as being drastic or game-breaking.

Wasn't haste at one time a 25% bonus to attack speed and is now 15%.......they changed things around so everything worked out fine with that...I don't even notice that 10% loss anymore.

Let's just wait and see what happens...I think the thing that irks me is this may make update 5 coming out take longer than expected...but oh well...we get to play with our current combat styles for longer then :)

[Phax]

Facts:
If someone dissconnects in Epic Von6 white fighting the dragon everyone dies.
If someone dissconnects in part 4 or 5 of the shroud all sorts of wierd thing can happen - i.e. part 4 noone dies when portal is clicked, heals don't go off etc.

These things are not related to DPS lag as far as I have been able to tell.



I have a 2H build rogue with an Epic SoS never have any lag problems unless someone dissconnects.

...

Fix that problem 1st and then see if the DPS lag still happens.

Kambuk.

Kambuk, you have brought up something that we have addressed for the next update. There was a bug where AOE spells were requiring all clients affected by the spell to be synchronized. Essentially, before an AOE (many, but not all) would go off all the clients had to report in to the server with a "I'm here!" message. This would cause exactly the problem you describe. We've fixed this, and now every player will get the effect applied immediately after the spell is cast.

Unfortunately, we still have other dps lag issues.

I was not in the office today, so I apologize if this was already addressed by Eladrin, I have not had the time to read 90% of this thread.

[Thar]

So if TWF contributes to lag, then does multishot? does aoe spells? if it's the physics roll on the 2nd attack then get rid of it. it hits because the primary attack was in range.

What about glancing blows? is this next on the nerf bat?

If this isn't about lag, i'd say stop trying to fix what ain't broken. People like their twf builds, spent years building, trading/finding equipment for them, numerous greensteel items made. People like thier THF builds. They are different and are that way for a reason. THF is more str based and HP in most cases. TWF is more finesse and favors the dex based classes who do more damage at the expense of being squishier. That's Dnd. they are not supposed to be equal.

so people hate cookie cutter builds, everyone will be using ESOS if this goes through. Why wouldn't you? change your twf rogue to esos thf.

to those that say people will say. Yes, many will. But some will leave. WOP did chase some people away. is it more a reaction, yes. But you play this game to have fun. Playing this game, putting the time in to make a character that you want to play and then it's core is changed to something different is fustrating and other options exist rather than being annoyed. Half my groups tonight were talking about half leaving... leaving the paying vip. go free to play. why pay monthly when what "work" you've done for years is gimp'd.

[Borror0]

Phax! You're alive!!

[Kambuk]

Kambuk, you have brought up something that we have addressed for the next update. There was a bug where AOE spells were requiring all clients affected by the spell to be synchronized. Essentially, before an AOE (many, but not all) would go off, all the clients had to report in to the server with a "I'm here!" message. This would cause exactly the problem you describe. We've fixed this, and now every player will get the effect applied immediately after the spell is cast.

Unfortunately, we still have other dps lag issues.

I was not in the office today, so I apologize if this was already addressed by Eladrin, I have not had the time to read 90% of this thread.

Thats great news, the Von bug has been very expensive in resources and time with it causing wipes and having to recover from near wipes when runs have been going very smoothly.

As far as I know this is the 1st acknowledgment the bug even existed.

Kambuk

[Aashrym]

Kambuk, you have brought up something that we have addressed for the next update. There was a bug where AOE spells were requiring all clients affected by the spell to be synchronized. Essentially, before an AOE (many, but not all) would go off, all the clients had to report in to the server with a "I'm here!" message. This would cause exactly the problem you describe. We've fixed this, and now every player will get the effect applied immediately after the spell is cast.

Unfortunately, we still have other dps lag issues.

I was not in the office today, so I apologize if this was already addressed by Eladrin, I have not had the time to read 90% of this thread.

When you say, "next update"... are you referring to 5 (this update) or 6 (next update)? I've seen confusion on that term before.

[Phax]

When you say, "next update"... are you referring to 5 (this update) or 6 (next update)? I've seen confusion on that term before.

Update 5.



Phax! You're alive!!


Don't be fooled, it's ZombiePhax!

[Gobbothegreen]

Well from what i can make from this, the only decent options for twf and dps will be pure fighter and pally. Both will have their dps reduced by ~10% but as thf gets about the same dps decrease with the nerf for twitching.

BUT all the builds revolving around tempest will loose alot more.

Lets start with an example of the basic exploiter split ranger 18/1/1. Now form this you get a 10% attack speed while twfing to BOTH main and offhand, then at tempest 3 you gain an additional off hand attack for basicly 25% increase in offhand attack speed. Now this would add up to roughly 110%/135%. Now this might seem like alot but they still do less dps than thf barbs and fighters and twf fighters.

Then with this change they would get 20% to off hand attack speed, this is less relatively to other classes than they get currently, and they would only get 5% increase on main hand. 105%/100%.

So basicly this change makes exploiter split builds who are already behind in dps fall even further behind than they already are. so bye bye rangers.

Then we have the monsters and all other ranger 6 splashes. Currently they gain 10% attack speed increase to both mainhand and offhand, after this nerf they would gain only a 10% increase in offhand. Which is a benefit but its minimal for using THREE feats. So now all the splash ranger builds will be alot worse.


So if you go through with this nerf do not change tempest the way you are doing now. But make tempest 1 give 10% chance for double attack, and make tempest 2 and 3 give you the 20% offhand bonus (and preferebly something more as just that wouldnt be enough to go pure ranger)

So please do not kill build creativity and multiclassing by forcing everyone to go pure fighter, barb, or pally to get decent dps.


And please don't add Stwf unless you make it possible to get over 100% offhand proc.

[Khellendros13]

Prove me wrong, but a %10 chance for a double strike is NOT the same as %10 alacrity.

Alacrity provides +10% faster swing rate, 100% of the time. So every 10 attacks you would normally make without it, you have 11 attacks. With double strike, over 10-20 attacks, it is possible you will not see a double strike, just like with vorpals you may not see a 20 rolled for over 20-40 attacks.

So for targets that take 11-20 hits, this will be less DPS and the current %10 alacrity from Tempest I and Fighter capstone.

Then we have no glancing blows while moving? That just kills the fun and strategy from THF while twitching, circle strafing etc. Is this a sneaky nerf for THF twitch? Only the top end and experienced players have I seen actually twitch or actually make the effort anyway.

I would love to be proved wrong and see if no glancing blows VS twitch attack makes a difference.

I would also be keen to actually do raids on Lammy when the time comes to see if it actually helps or not.

[Desteria]

is it just me or should not all the 10% speed bost effetcs, fighter cap, Zeal, monk air4, etc be changed to 10% dubble strike and 10% off hand attack!!!!! thast what they do right NOW, and this way they woudl effect all meele styles the way they do now...
Ranged combat will still need some love, heck it needs love before any changes really, but it will need more now.

*Edit*
Also to kepe everythign in line, the 4 TWF feats to functiona s they do now shoudl bring you to 100% off hand, Hard cap 100% is 100% after all :) Then All teh 10% haste effects zeal, tempest, air4 etc to function as they do now give that dubble strike ok dubbel strike also need to get OFF hand attacks! then it;s efectivly identical to current fuctionality of 10% haste while reducing expesive cpu time. Then in the futre IF twf need to be adgiste dslightly down to balace it it cna be done with minor changes to %'s and still retain the current flavor of 10% faster attacks, though reduction have to be watched carfully, as it does take a LOT more investment to be a TWF twice the epic weapons, and much harder to get epic weapons due to most of the 1handed weapons beign in deset wihc has a MUCH larger pool of epics and thuse muhc much muchmuch harder to actuly get a complet set of items, twce the shroud ingredants, and it realyl is twice since any oen that plays a lot knows the ONLY thing you ever need after a short while of crafting for a few chars is large deavil scales, all other ingredeants just build up and no oen will trade deavels for them soo it is twice the farming.

[eonfreon]

Right, which is why they raised the numbers. Everyone should be satisfied now, or at least willing to give it a shot.
The end result is a whole lot less of a nerf that people are willing to admit to because they like the drama.
Personally, I don't think it was enough.
That being the case, I don't see anything to complain about.

Actually my biggest complaint is the possible effect that STWF might be impossible for certain builds to get.
Since they haven't clarified it, I just had to let my opinions be heard.

The other problem I see is that Ranger 6/x classes have lost a lot of their ability. And any 20th level Character will need to get a respec to fit in STWF, even if it's possible to acquire it.

With no free respecs it does have a feel of being unfair to require real money to be spent on our parts to allow Turbine to re-balance their mistakes.

I'm not one of the ones trying to make drama and I realize you're not accusing me of such.
Most of the drama stems from the fact that the TWF nerf is included within the "fix dps lag" concept.
Even if it's stated that it is separate, it does give the impression that the TWF nerf is required to make the "fix" work.

Even the wording is somewhat suspect. Eladrin states something to the effect "I won't try to hide the fact....", which makes the more paranoid wonder why would he say that unless at one point he did want to hide it, etc.

The lag fix should have gone in. Then when that was shown to actually help, they could have worked on the TWF nerf separately.

Now as for the double strike idea. I really just don't like it on gut instinct alone. The fact of the matter is casting Zeal was a very noticeable increase in my speed. And I liked that "feeling".

I have not made a huge issue of it but Eladrin stated it was something he was "thinking" about. Meaning it was more of being "kicked around" and even less set in stone then the TWF nerf.
So if I can convince the Devs that it's a bad idea, I will.

[Aashrym]

Prove me wrong, but a %10 chance for a double strike is NOT the same as %10 alacrity.

Alacrity provides +10% faster swing rate, 100% of the time. So every 10 attacks you would normally make without it, you have 11 attacks. With double strike, over 10-20 attacks, it is possible you will not see a double strike, just like with vorpals you may not see a 20 rolled for over 20-40 attacks.

So for targets that take 11-20 hits, this will be less DPS and the current %10 alacrity from Tempest I and Fighter capstone.

A lucky fighter could see 3 doublestrikes out of 10 attacks too, increasing damage. ;)

In theory 1 out of 10 attacks will trigger it and we're still seeing a 10% increase in damage. The law of averages will kick in over time, but short term could go up or down either way.

[IronClan]

Thread finally seems to be slowing down a bit, since I'm 100% sure it got missed entirely by Eladrin: What about the 2 or 3 suggestions of globally slowing down combat or specifically slowing it down in "high risk" dungeons like Shroud. By 10 or 15% Is this feasible or possible with DDO's engine? I could see the game having some global variable for combat speed... but I could easily imagine that you all never considered it, and thus lowering speed would be much more difficult with multiple variables to tweak that might not actually scale in relation to each other.

Baring that how about just simply dropping the extra collision detection for the off hand, and maybe do some basic lag scaling in the future to make CD more primitive and less iterative as the lag gets worse. Obviously there are a lot of things that can be discarded during a lag spike that will help ease the spike... Combat log text, damage display, effects calls (someone else lands an on hit effect or spell that has a visible effect, then the server has to tell every client to display X effect at X, Y, Z location)... no one NEEDS to see a fireball land in the correct location during bad lag, chances are the delay from lag will keep it from being relevant to the player anyway so just don't even try to send it...

[TiranBlade]

A lucky fighter could see 3 doublestrikes out of 10 attacks too, increasing damage. ;)

In theory 1 out of 10 attacks will trigger it and we're still seeing a 10% increase in damage. The law of averages will kick in over time, but short term could go up or down either way.

Not to mention the Items and enhancements that may come along to add more Doublestrike Percentage to the field.

[Glenalth]

And please don't add Stwf unless you make it possible to get over 100% offhand proc.

Instead of increasing over 100%, letting STWF get double strikes along with main hand would be interesting. Though that might make better sense for Tempest III.

[Desteria]

I love the idea to remove the seocnd collition check for TWF it realyl makes no sense just call it swingign 2 weapons at the same time and hey if hes there for oen hes there for the other.

the other hcanges IF do shoudl be doen as a totaly seperate patch AFTER the effetcs on DPS of removign that one collition check are.

I'm very falimlar with DPS soem easy ways to se ethe effetc are as a monk fight the main portal in shroud part one or go fight oen far away by your self and watch your ki genration it should be the same but it;s NOT it;s much slower on the main portal as DPS lag is kickign in and your loseign attacks over time.

soo make the first change remove that collition check, see how it works see what happens THEN see if this huge nerf to TWF has to go in as well to further reduce dps lag by reducign our DPS significantly.

[eonfreon]

A lucky fighter could see 3 doublestrikes out of 10 attacks too, increasing damage. ;)

In theory 1 out of 10 attacks will trigger it and we're still seeing a 10% increase in damage. The law of averages will kick in over time, but short term could go up or down either way.

Yes, but there was no need to work in the laws of average. Double strike could have simply been guaranteed at every 10th attack.

The way it would work as currently proposed would not effect the offhand attack nor Ranged attacks.

While that may be part of the idea behind the proposal (to nerf TWF further) it is not stated as such, but more of a "this will save on collision detection time".

[Aashrym]

Not to mention the Items and enhancements that may come along to add more Doublestrike Percentage to the field.

Yes, there is that. I'm kinda curious about the higher tier warchanter song mentioned earlier on that.

If it's a tier III song I may have to respec my axesinger, and several other players too. I hope we get more tidbits on that soon.

[Borror0]

What about the 2 or 3 suggestions of globally slowing down combat or specifically slowing it down in "high risk" dungeons like Shroud. By 10 or 15% Is this feasible or possible with DDO's engine?
Combat was temporarily reduce to 10% of what it is now in patch 1 of DDO:EU. It resulted in a major uproar on the forums (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201211) and an hotfix was made less than a week later, increasing the speed back by 10% (and nerfing Haste from 25% to 15%). So, while it is technically feasible, it's a really bad idea.

It does not sound that way on paper but slowing down the attack speed, even by a mere 10%, takes a lot of the fun of the game.

[eonfreon]

Baring that how about just simply dropping the extra collision detection for the off hand,

They are dropping the extra collision detection for the offhand.
And then they tacked on the TWF nerf.

[~Tago_Bane]

okay so I didn't read all 60 pages of this thread so if my opinion is redundant than I appoligize in advance.

My initial thought/ emotional response to this thread is, it seems that Turbine really doesn't care much about their veteran players. Such a drastic change in game mechanics will ultimately hinder current builds (like my twice TRed main) and premote new ones. This is not exceptible to me. Especially when all the new quest content Turbine continues to develope is low lv content. Of which there is already excess. Yes I realize they make epic difficulty avaliable for high lv toons but that does not satisfy me because I have found epic content to be overbarely tedious.

Stepping back I understand the issue Turbine has with lag, though be honest people how often can you really blame a raid wipe on lag? and does it really take redesigning the game structer to fix it?

A question I have is with this decrease in dps for players, will monsters have decreased health in return to not make the already over taxed healers pay even more in resources than they already do too make TODs and epic vons a sucess?

If its an overpowering issue that you are trying to fix, then why not increase the effectiveness of THF instead of nerfing TWF. I do not think TWF is overpowered when competing with the quest itself as it might be viewed when compared to the effeciency of THF.

[Riggs]

So....just started reading the thread. Maybe this will have been addressed somewhere in the 50+ pages by now.

Note - Shroud part 1 dps lag was there long before monks showed up - and yet the discussion about dps lag monks get first mention.

Monks got hosed with no greensteel. No named items to break dr using wraps for over a year.

Finally got tod rings, still making dps less than a dual gs two weapon fighting khopesh user, or scimtar, or picks, or rapiers..or anything since those players can use rings for stat bonuses and still keep dps on weapons.

Monks went from "your not dps we dont really want you in our raid" to "ok with rings your decent dps, not a barb or a ranger, or a fighter...but ok."

this change - with still no gs wraps - monks gets hosed on twf again. Back to "Monks are not a dps class".

Yeah ok dps lag needs to be fixed. Changing the physics great. Lowering extra attacks? ok sure it was overpowered getting 2x attacks anyway - and why pnp rules took it out as well many years ago because it was too powerful.

Monks keep getting hosed. Every other melee class gets better weapons AND extra crit boosts, and crit boosts on better crit weapons.

It is really long past time to give monks something other than wraps or kamas if they are dex based, or crummy staves. (Hey that d8 gs staff sure looks nice next to the barb with the Epic SoS eh?)

x3 crits on fists. Centered bonuses with ANY weapon a monk is proficent with or takes a feat to get. Martial arts throughout history is FULL of weapons - not fists and 2 weapons only.

It has been what...2 years now no green steel for monks? Or any good weapons at all?

Barbs got yet more crit damage and 70 str. Fighters finally got some attention, and not as good as barbs but still more damage on crits and any weapons. Rangers mroe speed and attacks with their dual green steel. Paladins also get some crit/smite love.

What did monks get after 2 years? Dream edge. Looks pretty cool for a weapon that sucks and somehow is level 18 still.

So yeah - great to see dps lag get work. And if these changes reduce dps lag and maybe make a single weapon user more useful also great. Would be nice not to have monks hosed yet again while doing it.

Maybe after I go through the 50 pages there will be some not so bad news for my monk.

[Halock]

Jesus what an ant hill you managed to stir up, i cant even read fast enough to get to the end of all of the posts as it grows that fast......

Gut reaction so far, i like he haste changes with the double strike thing, gutting TWF.......i cant see that going over well, and i also think it unnecessary, for alot of reasons, i'll elaborate when i read more, duno what a dev mighta posted, i'm only up to page 34...

[bbqzor]

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5% 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%


This is a very large step in the right direction. These numbers are far closer to both the old system and the pnp representation, without compromising too much of the current system. If I were to have come up with them I would have done something very similar, so I cannot profess enough support for those values.

In a relative sense, this keeps everyone appropriately in the ballpark. I know flatly adding the percentages is not wholly accurate, as offhand attacks function fundamentally differently, but allow me to do so in a simplistic sense. Rogues have 180% with no enhancement additives, but have haste boost for situational help. Fighters have 190% with just the capstone, and while Paladins can spend resources to gain that value for a time (trading mana spent for action point cost), fighters also maintain the haste boost option, getting the best of both worlds as befits a flexible combatant. Monks sit at 190% but with a much larger investment, Ill come back to them. Archer rangers are no worse than rogues when meleeing (which is not their ideal situation being archer rangers, but its nice to not be at a detriment when meleeing is required), while Tempest rangers go the fastest at 205%.

The Monks much larger investment (ability score prerequisite and action point costs), and then the opportunity cost of not gaining the benefits of another stance, makes their 190% seem a tad low. However, does this figure include or reflect the current 'handwraps are faster' situation? Assuming Handwraps are still faster to start, that makes their 190% almost as good as Tempest III, which is more in line with the costs. As long as the basic weapon speeds (like 1hd, 2hd, 2wp, wraps) are not affected, but only the offhand attack check coding, Monk fits well in line both with where it is now and where it should be.

On STWF, having it as an option has the potential to do far more harm than good. In addition to creating a situation where feat starved characters are essentially locked into even fewer options in an environment with an ever increasing number of potential options (new update 5 feats, past life feats, etc all competing for limited space), it also is going to further the gap between characters like rogues which have a limited BAB but in DDO are essentially very strictly balanced by their attack rate and other full BAB melees. In PnP its viable to have a more non-combat rogue, in DDO such a character has a very narrow range of application and few pug situations would be happy with such a build.

Rather than introduce yet more difficulty to relative balancing and restricting effective feat options, I think it might be better to change the attack rates now and then evaluate later if more is needed in the form of feats. Besides, it would make Tempest III a poor choice if a fighter could simply spend a feat and only be 5% less than an entire prestige line, which also adds class and PrE balance issues on top of the attack rate issues.

And finally, such figures as the quoted ones also make things like a future Warchanter Song adding 10% double attack more balancing for all. Adding 10% to someone from the old chart with a 55% offhand would do far less relative to the guy with 100% offhand, than when using the current figures where the difference comes down to a only 1-2 percentage points. By keeping the offhand procs more equal, you also make buffs more evenly effective across classes, which means across different groups and raid compositions, which means more balanced parties for events.

I bring this up because I would hate to see things like groups wanting only Tempest IIIs and a Warchanter because the buff adds more to them in a relative sense, making such a group gain a substantial benefit over one of a different composition. Thats just going to make min/max pug issues worse when grouping and raiding. With the future buffs potentially helping everyone more equally, you are less likely to see the desire for any specific class start to outweigh the others, meaning easier times grouping for all and less worrying about any single party combination trivializing an event.

Very good work, glad to see the feedback is helping, and thanks for taking the time to examine the issue in detail.

[D-molisher]

... Obviously there are a lot of things that can be discarded during a lag spike that will help ease the spike... Combat log text, damage display, effects calls (someone else lands an on hit effect or spell that has a visible effect, then the server has to tell every client to display X effect at X, Y, Z location)... no one NEEDS to see a fireball land in the correct location during bad lag, chances are the delay from lag will keep it from being relevant to the player anyway so just don't even try to send it...
Nice one sir +1.

Some of it might be the need for information like combat log for all players and simmilar.
So far i kind of like the proposed idea, but will have to try it to see how it influence my tempest splashes.

[Monkey_Archer]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF, except for the STWF row.

An alternate chart had the TWF not giving a bonus to off-hand proc rate, but increasing each tier to 25% - so it would have been 25%/25%/50%/75%/100%

Ok, i like that chart alot better. 80% offhand vs the 100% we have now translates into only a 8-10% dps nerf (which is tolerable IMO). Adding in STWF effectively makes the average TWF identical to what it is now, but with added cost.

I know this thread is mainly focused on TWF and unarmed, but its really hard to ignore the nerf to glancing blows. If STWF is introuced, making this nerf effectively 0% (aka not a nerf at all) how is this supposed to address the "extreme dominance" of TWF (as you put it) when the only style that gets nerfed hard would be THF?


Secondary issue, (maybe im not understanding properly) Does a double strike have a chance to proc an offhand attack? Effecitvely increasing the offhand chance by 10% as well?
From the charts it looks like all the 10% allacrity bonuses are getting nerfed by 10% (not applying to offhand) which would reduce fighter/paladin/monk dps by 4-5% while leaving non alacrity based classes like rogues and barbarians (excluding the barb capstone) untouched.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Overall I don't mind this change. I will roll with it. Just 2 things:

1. Can I get the official wording of the feat Superior Two Weapon Fighting.

2. Can I get a lesser reincarnation bound to character token for every melee character I have. (OK so I wont need it on every character, so if you have the ability to select, how about any character that has GTWF currently)

[ieatogres]

If you're also trying to equalise the playing field re TWF (which is secondary to fixing DPS lag), I'd prefer a boost to other styles, rather than a nerf on TWF.

And make the game easier than what it has already become?

[bobbryan2]

Just a reminder to make sure that feedback is kept in the forum guidelines. (most everyone is doing a great job, and only a few tempers have flared beyond the appropriate point, so keep it up!)

I wanted to take a moment to respond to two comments expressed in the thread. Dungeon Alert, and hardware.

We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

I've also seen "Dungeon Alert didn't fix lag" comments. I'd like to take a moment to walk down feedback memory lane - there was a point in time which every day that I interacted with community I could find scores of lag complaints from users at all levels of the game. The comments would be on the forums in multiple threads, in posts responding to unrelated topics, in facebook comments, twitter comments, in the chat channels, in guild chats, exit surveys, off-site chats, new player comments.... There was definitely something "up" so Tarrant and I aggregated this issue constantly to the team. Performance studies were conducted many a late night targeting the worst culprit. This was discussed at length in the Dungeon Alert initial announcement.

Fast forward to the post-DA/new hardware DDO world, and the constant hum of lag comments became a drought... we'd still see comments here and there, but it had significantly nose dived, and tended to come up the most in the forums. We kept our eye on it when we saw comments crop up. Aggregation denotes that the comments are coming from the higher level, more experienced players in the higher level content. Generally speaking, newer players - where a bulk of the population currently is - are not yet skilled enough with character builds nor are they often high enough to be playing in the content where the complaints come from. They also are not as "engaged" as older players, and don't hit the forums as often as their veteran counterparts. So again, another wave of investigations focusing on these areas, bringing us to the current discussion.

Do keep providing feedback, assessing Eladrin's proposed changes, but I'd like to ask that "hardware" and "dungeon alert doom" comments subside, as they derail the discussion and are not helping the developers to further their work and investigations. Thanks for your participation everyone!

Not to contradict you... but the players have known about the causes of DPS lag since Mod 6. As everyone started making their greensteels, and watching them all play out against Harry showed us new lag that we could reproduce.

Everything you said is true about many types of lag not living past the hardware upgrades.... but you guys have known about DPS lag since we have...

[manfredshw]

have you guys consider this?

After this change,
how about the monk ki regenerate rate?
Without the offhand attack. We lost ki regen rate. And potentially lost dps here.

You have already nerfed monk ki strike at the cost of 8 7 6 5.
What about to bring it back to 5 5 5 5?

[GottDDO]

This is a twf nerf plain and simple......

In short this is a complete nerf...explain it anyway you want but if it looks like sh**, smells like sh**, chances are it is sh**!!!

So here is my 2 cents....fix your problems without nerfing MY builds please!

The Bycher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Vampir/Spectyr/Xindao/Richgirl

Sniff sniff.

[Riggs]

Oh yeah, and more proof that Sos, and epic sos is game breaking even more now even more than the khopesh being giving x3 crits was before.

It keeps getting said that "We will not go back and change loot"....but those 2 weapons basically have broken most of the game, and these changes will make thf better - and epic sos was already better than everything else in the game - so its going to get magnified even more.

So - nurf something in the game and make people cry? Or continue breaking the game further and shattering it even more. "Either you have an epic Sos or your not a dps character"

Weapons and classes need a lot more balance work at the same time as this.

So exactly what is the difference between nurfing a single massively overpowered weapon - that people have ground for and leveled up characters for...and nurfing a fighting style, that people have ground out x2 as many weapons for, costs more in feats and stats, and have leveled up characters as?

Yes fix lag, sure lower off hand attacks if it helps - but nurf the other stuff too, AND lower the super inflated monster hp that was added after adding in the massive over powered dps in the first place.

[GottDDO]

that would bring it more back to pnp, id prefer this version (even the fact that you considered what i suggested is awesome :) )

I'd prefer if you gave a negative 5 to-hit on each consecutive off-hand attack.

[manfredshw]

And how about the 4 stances?

Wind4 has better chance for offhand attack, then better ki regen?
Or sun4 has better ki regen rate but low offhand attack?

I don't know which stance is better for ki regen.

Will you revamp all the 4 stances for better features?

[Calebro]

have you guys consider this?

After this change,
how about the monk ki regenerate rate?
Without the offhand attack. We lost ki regen rate. And potentially lost dps here.

You have already nerfed monk ki strike at the cost of 8 7 6 5.
What about to bring it back to 5 5 5 5?

In the lower levels you'll actually be gaining ki faster.
In the highest levels you'll be gaining ki at ~90% of what you did previously.

Previously with only TWF you attack twice, then once, once, once ~ averaging to 5 points of ki (assuming 1pt per strike)
Now you'll attack at 100%/40%, 100%/40%, 100%/40%, 100%/40% ~ averaging to 5.6

So at the lower levels, this will help monks, and at the highest levels you usually gain ki fast enough so that it doesn't matter.

[GottDDO]

So once again the vicious circle begins.....one playstyle is being nerfed because another feels that their play style is weak in comparison.

Quests will now take longer to complete because TWF won't be as effective....but the THF can walk away bragging that thier kill count is higher than it used to be.

/facepalm

Anyone that claims that TWF isn't superior dps to THF is either an idiot or a liar. Oops. What happened to your "look at me" text?

[KillEveryone]

I couldn't read all 54 pages, not sure if you are still looking at this feedback but this is my 2cp...

Not really into this particular idea. I have to add points into DEX and eat a tome to get my DEX at 17 for all feats, but in a THF build I just max STR and CON and I'm good to go. I think as a TWF you give up some so that you can take the other road of fighting style and I think that some return should be given for the investment. This just means that I won't even bother with my TWF fighter anymore since there wouldn't be any real point to that style.

Another note on lag...

I haven't run ToD, DQ, SoS, Titan so I can't comment on those.
I have done VoN and I don't expierence lag.
I have done VoD and I don't expierence lag.
I have done Hound and I don't expierence lag.
I have done Revers Fate and I don't expierence lag.
I don't expierence lag on regular 6 man quests at any level or difficulty.

I have done Tempest spine and I get lag when fighting all those trash mobs but not when we fight Sorjek.

Shroud, now that quest is full of lag but not just when fighting.
Part 1, I get lots of lag when we are going to the chests after beating all the portals but not when we are beating on the portals.
Part 2, I get lag when everything is dead and the crystal is broken and we are heading to the chests and also when we are beating down the trash mobs.
Part 3, I don't get lag.
Part 4, well that is just a lag fest when the blades come in but I don't have much trouble with beating on Harry before the blades so much. Was recently on a run where part 4 was a 3 rounder and we still had a lot of lag. Another recent run we had a wipe on part 4 where the clerics were lagging and heals didn't get through. Even if we had survived, part 4 would have been a 2 rounder. I'm fairly sure that the lag in these 2 runs was not from DPS.
Part 5 I usually don't have a lag problem until Harry dies then things get a little laggy.
I will expierence lag with either my Bard which gets in the melee but also with my Wizard which stays out of the gank pile.
I tend to expierence way more lag in the afternoon to around midnight so my lag expierence will vary.

I have had some fairly lag free(none in part 1 and little in part 2) Shroud runs but those tend to be during midnight to mid-morning EST. That time frame also tends to have less people on at once.

I do appriciate that you are trying to address an issue that has been brought up(it does show that you listen) but I don't think this is the best way to go about it and I think that you will be hitting many people that probably don't actually expierence any DPS lag. So far, to me at least, the lag problem is only a few quests but not a wide spread problem.

[GottDDO]

Please don't bring back STWF. This would penalize classes which are very short on feats, especially DW melee clerics/FvS, which already need to splash fighter levels to have even some metamagic with all the twf required.

Bring back STWF. A class that can heal itself and cast blade barrier shouldn't be as good at melee as a real melee class.

[GottDDO]

Why do such a complicated fix, when all combat could be slowed just a little to fix everything.

Say it just one more time, and maybe it will happen.

[GottDDO]

It seems we have evolved an interesting sub-thread comparing TWF and THF and ways to make these balanced in respect to each other. Something many feel, it seems, should be done.

Let me say one thing. Balancing THF and TWF is a matter so important we should not have this done as a side effect of 'fixing lag'. As the 'lag' fixing will be a main concern here, and the resulting twf/thf rebalancing deserves a fix on its own. Which may not be possible in the future, as this may break 'the fix' it'll be reliant on!

I don't care if it's a smokescreen or not. This is something that needs to happen, and if this is the context in which it needs to be brought forward, then so be it.

And I'm not dead...

[Riggs]

The size of the change necessary isn't within the scope of changes that we'd be able to make in the time frames we've got. No conspiracy.

Edit: There's also many, many posts in this thread that I haven't replied directly to.

So...someone posted what sounds like a good idea to reduce calculations...'1 roll to rule them all', rather than 10 different rolls..and its too late to make that kind of change?

So like someone said about SoS feedback on Lam before - by the time it reached there it was too late to make changes, as many people instantly pointed out epic Sos was far mroe 'epic' than anything else in the game....and it just stayed right in there.

So these changes will get posted to the server, and it is already too late to offer other ideas?

As other people have already said...if the servers cannot handle the calculations now, but apparently reducing twf attacks by the 25% number people are saying will...I mean seriously - chips can handle millions of calculations a second and 25% less is going to make a difference?

It is pretty hard NOT to ask about the quality of the servers at that point isnt it?

And side note - many people playing, and posting, are programmers and engineers in their own right...why not open up the discussion BEFORE it is too late to make changes? I mean...really.

[bandyman1]

I don't care if it's a smokescreen or not. This is something that needs to happen in my opinion, which really doesn't mean **** to those who don't feel the same way, and if this is the context in which it needs to be brought forward, then so be it.

And I'm not dead...

Fixed.

[Riggs]

If only adding another server to the pile would solve all our problems! Wow, genius. Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that? We'll just buy a thousand more servers and throw them on the pile. It won't cost anything to put them up, maintain them, power them, support them etc.

The things that can affect performance are: system software (unix/windows/misc), DBMS software, Game software,
hardware, network, etc.

All the servers on the world won't solve many performance issues.

Also: I'm not sure why most people assume that epic SoS will never get fixed.

Maybe because khopesh never got fixed after 4 years?

re servers - ever heard of companies that handle larger traffic...with bigger server farms?

[Sebastrd]

I get the sense that this change to TWF is a done deal, but I'd like to go on record as being wholly against it. A handful of high level quests is not a good reason to nerf and ability for the other 99% of game content.

The proposed fix for the physics checking is a great idea, especially if it will have a significant effect on DPS lag. Replacing alacrity with double strike is also a great idea, as it amounts to approximately the same effect. If double strike allows all of the alacrity effects to stack, that's even better.

However, changing the way TWF works is infuriating. That's a major reduction in the effectiveness of existing characters, and entire builds are predicated on TWF working as is. I realize that changes like this are not uncommon among MMOs, and even the current incarnation of DDO is a long way from what it was originally; but DDO is supposed to be a cut above.

[Iambeastx]

Ok,

The second table is much more stable looking, may need some tweaking with regard to specific classes but a far better improvement to the original table, imo.

Will this actually decrease lag or is it a hopeful fix to be tested first?

[Riggs]

And just to repeat...

So if part of the problem with dps lag is the NUMBER of rolls and calculations...and where people see it most is in raids - with high hit point monsters and raid bosses with massive hp....

Nurf twf fine. Nurf monster hp at the SAME time too then, but the SAME %.

Even less calculations = even less dps lag. And single weapon non-epic sos users will also be better off as well.

[Visty]

just 10 pages of catching up after waking up..thought it would be more

and it seems it slowed down now abit, you are all sleepin :D


I'd prefer if you gave a negative 5 to-hit on each consecutive off-hand attack.
that might abit too hard or has to checked carefull as ppl would just break their attackchain to not get any penalty
kinda like twitching for twf...which they now weakened for thf....doubt it will happen

[donfilibuster]

63 pages! it's a pain to read thru it.

D&D is about actions and its rolls, you are either skilled enough to do it in the time given or not at all.
There's no 'percentile' to see if you attack, 3rd edition cut out on most of the arbitrary tables in 2e to a simplified d20.

So "fast attacks is heavy processing" and you want to cut down on checks.
Are you entirely sure there's no way to work on this issue without changing the mechanic itself?

The part where succesive attacks need not check physics every time is right but can you keep the chain of attacks?
After the checks you have to send the data to show both the damages and the animations to all players, which are enqueued and cause lag.
Perhaps both the damage numbers and the animations can be buffered by also asumming you will keep attacking at full speed?

The animations of a 12 player bum rush with greensteel and overspeeding tickets may be alleviated by assuming they intend to keep attacking the monster at hand.
Basically it'd be easier to detect if you 'cease attacking' than if you 'keep attacking' on every attack.

As for the numbers you only see those that belong to you, but if there's lag they get enqueued and may leave you hanging for precious moments only to see them rush by at fast motion when the latency ease up, which often ends in you being dead.
The client may instead sum up the numbers so that you only see them once every second? (and not 4-6 per second).
That'd be the equivalent of the double attack without an actual proc chance that may vary your rate of attack.

Other ideas come to mind but the point is to make the effort to workaround the internals of the issue without requiring to alter the character build.
Isn't the game complex already to drop another line of proc boosting feats and enhancements?

[TheMoodyOne]

as a programmer i can understand why there is a problem with dps lag - too many calculations at once

you have x number of players all hitting a mob, y number of mobs all hitting players and x * y number of attacks which need geometry checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, ciritcal rolls etc etc

reducing the number of geometry checks is a start (and a good one) but cutting the number of attacks and intorducing a new random system (procs) which will require rolls to work out if it should hit or not doesnt go far enough - its a 25% reduction more or less

let me show you what i would do

lets take a Elf Paladin with a Holy Sword scimitar - full Kotc enhancments, wearing the Kotc item set, with the capstone and using a single divine sacrifice III attack, no critical, against an outsider

the damage roll will be:
1d6 Slashing from weapon, 2d6 good from holy, 1d6 good from cap stone, 2d6 light from cap stone, 4d6 from KotC, 1d6 from Kotc set, 9d6 light from divine sacrifice

total - 20 rolls

now heres how I would reduce rolls

instead of the above I would use:
1d6 slashing from weapon, 1 D15 + 3 Good, 1D55 + 11 Light, 1D25 + 5 from Kotc

total - 4 rolls with the same damage range (correct me if im wrong guys)

this is a 80% reduction in damage rolls - all you lose out on is logging each "virtual" d6 roll and the "dice range" (with 2 d6 you have a better chance of getting 7 than 1d12)

much simpler than adding a random proc element, less annoyed customers, far less rolls

[vVAnjilaVv]

Anyone that claims that TWF isn't superior dps to THF is either an idiot or a liar. Oops. What happened to your "look at me" text?
First of all the look at me text works fine...sorry I am not a dog and like things in color...secondly....I didn't say TWF wasn't.....I was simply stating that once again the vicious cycle of nerfing one thing to bring another in balance which will most likely result in THF having to be nerfed next is what is happening.

Anyone who can't see this is either blind or forgot to put in their contact lenses.

[Gobbothegreen]

]
First of all the look at me text works fine...sorry I am not a dog and like things in color...secondly....I didn't say TWF wasn't.....I was simply stating that once again the vicious cycle of nerfing one thing to bring another in balance which will most likely result in THF having to be nerfed next is what is happening.

Anyone who can't see this is either blind or forgot to put in their contact lenses.

Why would they have to nerf thf more? They are already nerfing it by removing glancing blows from the only thing making thf equal or better than twf (twitching). So basicly they are nerfing everything except S&B which of course still is worthless.

[Visty]

Why would they have to nerf thf more? They are already nerfing it by removing glancing blows from the only thing making thf equal or better than twf (twitching). So basicly they are nerfing everything except S&B which of course still is worthless.

are they nerfing thf or are they making thf and twf kinda equal?
thf looses abit damage cause no twitching but twf looses some too cause of less hits

in the end they might be balanced now without relying on twitch

[vVAnjilaVv]

Why would they have to nerf thf more? They are already nerfing it by removing glancing blows from the only thing making thf equal or better than twf (twitching). So basicly they are nerfing everything except S&B which of course still is worthless.

I don't know...let's hope this is the final balancing issue for melee and it is resolved.....but something tells me it will get unbalanced again somewhere and something will have to be nerfed relating to combat again.

Hopefully it will be something that effects all melee builds so we can at least all come on here and agree and be unified in our complaining :p

I mean seriously tho, how many times has Turbine "fixed" a balance issue without throwing something else completely out of whack.....I'm just hoping for the best and preparing for what is common.

I just hope this is thoroughly test on Lama before it goes thru to a final version...this is pretty huge.

[TechNoFear]

So if part of the problem with dps lag is the NUMBER of rolls and calculations....

Not all calculations are equal.

It is much quicker and easier to work out how much to tip your waiter than calculate the number of planets around a star based on Doppler spectroscopy.