Problems with new random loot

[Astoroth]

It has been about 6 months since the loot pass. Aside from trying to remove 0 effects and not actually managing it; It appears as if you're not going to even try to fix your new random loot. I was sort of giving you some space to fix random loot, but apparently that's not going to happen. You sort of got saved from the blasting you deserved by the data center move and the on going lag issues. 6 months I mean really, even for turbine that's a lack of work ethic. The honeymoon is over, you need to fix this mess before you copy and past it over to cannith crafting like it was the next best thing since sliced bread.

In general the item naming process is still way off, And you cannot tell whats what without a detailed inspection. Not even going to mention(other than now ofc) the Monty Hall loot changes of high level stats at lower levels, that's water under the bridge. Changing it after 6 months would just be unfair and create a black market for those items.

---

Weapons:

1. Alignment effects not breaking DR on weapons.
2. Sceptres, handwraps, repeating cross bows and what-not should drop when loot is set to be non class specific.
3. Plain paralyzing on high level weapons, when even improved paralyzing is a joke at epic levels.
4. Keen, is just broken from what it was, Keen 1 on level 30 items? Where's Keen II, III, IV.
5. Ranged only effects on melee weapons, this should never happen.
6. Melee only effects on ranged weapons, this should never happen.
7. Disruption is missing, needs the improved and greater version to scale with epics.
8. Smiting is missing, needs the improved and greater version to scale with epics.
9. Banishing is missing, needs the improved and greater version to scale with epics.
10. Vicious is missing.
11. Transmuation is missing.
12. Metaline is missing.
13. Everbright is missing.
14. Ghost touch, Ghostbane missing.
15. Not going to list the 40 or so effects feather of sun introduced, they were probably removed intentionally.
16. The replacement for Bane damage naming is a mess.
17. The replacement for Burst naming is a mess.
18. Vorpals at level 1, was this supposed to be a generic replacement for the missing instant kill weapons?
19. Matching item effects for caster weapons seem incredibly rare. its probably easier to win the lottery.
20. Caster stats now on any two handed weapon, instead of mostly staffs with all caster efefcts and a 3rd bonus caster effect
21. Even if this is intentional, caster effects are very numerous and blow out the loot generation from a numerical stand point.

---

Items:

1. Fortification now scales up too slowly, (the 100% augment is ml 8). Even epic items will often not have 100 fort.
2. False Life now scales up too slowly. Crafted greater false life is +10 levels, and old random loot is similar.
3. Detect secret, true seeing not really working since Harvest Hall update. Scaling is too low even by the time you get to restless isles.
4. Zero bonus effects still dropping, mostly in older bta reward lists.
5. Haven't seen double augment slots since new random loot. And in general augment slots seem a lot rarer.
6. Underwater action is missing.
7. Rings used to be a catch all for all sorts of stats and effects. Now they seem limited, they need to service the wide range of classes.
8. Necklaces used to be a catch all for all sorts of stats and effects. Now they seem limited, they need to service the wide range of classes.
9. Bracers used to be a catch all for all sorts of stats and effects. Now they seem limited, they need to service the wide range of classes.
10. Clothing items used to be sort of pigeon holed ogre power gloves, boots of swiftness and what not. Following traditional D&D loot. Now its pigeon holed into other weird stuff for no reason. Loot needs to serve all classes and builds.
11. Spell resistance missing in item naming.
12. Concentration is grossly over represented on goggles.

---

Armor:

1. Adamantine and Mithril still not effective as rare armor types should be.
2. Caster effects on armor. The other weapon effects on armor were removed, deadly and what not.
3. Even if this is intentional, caster effects are very numerous and blow out the loot generation from a numerical stand point.
4. Little logic in mixing caster effects with non caster effects.
5. Repair amplification on armor other than docents, this should never happen. Or maybe 1 in a million for that 1 fleshie artificer.
6. Healing amplification on docents, this should never happen. These two seem so common its like its just backwards.

Feel free to suggest other problems with new random loot, that I may have missed, I reserved the second post for additions.

[Astoroth]

Skill buffs don't scale well for epics.
Some effects like death block or feather fall, fill in on high level items as if they were a high level buffs, but they have no extra benefit. Need improved versions, like feather fall and jump combined.
Intimidation or assassinate on inappropriate weapons.
Item level appears to basically be randomly generated, the number in right hand corner.
Assassinate a level 12 skill appearing routinely on items under level 12.
Possibly add more options to loot selection other than just class, like one handed, two handed, caster specific, accessories clothing, armor and have teh results weighted heavily to those items.

[Astoroth]

If Noworries were running an actual magic shop he would be out of business. This new system just randomly throws caster buffs and melee buffs on any weapon/armor with no logic or order. Any magic shop that primarily made mish mash items virtually no one could use would quickly go out of business. What's the logic behind why these items would ever have been made, mostly they are just nonsense.

First of all I realize that if you make random loot too good people will eventually get all the stuff they can possibly use from it and none of it will be useful in short order. Taking the opposite stance, and making 99.99% of all random loot **** wasn't the solution though. Now people just dont like it because its mostly ****.

Not that I cared for Feather of Sun's loot pass, but he had a plan and the drive to at least make it seem like it was working. The only thing I see in new random loot is I just gotta be different. Really different names for the same effects in prefix and suffix was about the sum of it. And removing all feather's changes, and dropping lots of preexisting 10 year old loot effects. Sad day when you make Feather of Sun look like he was good at his job.

[Coyopa]

Healing amp on docents and repair amp on non-docent armor should be rare, but both should happen. If you're warforged and are a druid, when you use wolf/bear/elemental form then you're affected by healing spells and not by repair spells. I know there aren't many of these builds, but the combination should still occur.

EDIT: Otherwise, I agree with pretty much everything else you've written.

[RD2play]

It has been about 6 months since the loot pass. Aside from trying to remove 0 effects and not actually managing it; It appears as if you're not going to even try to fix your new random loot. I was sort of giving you some space to fix random loot, but apparently that's not going to happen. You sort of got saved from the blasting you deserved by the data center move and the on going lag issues. 6 months I mean really, even for turbine that's a lack of work ethic. The honeymoon is over, you need to fix this mess before you copy and past it over to cannith crafting like it was the next best thing since sliced bread.

In general the item naming process is still way off, And you cannot tell whats what without a detailed inspection. Not even going to mention(other than now ofc) the Monty Hall loot changes of high level stats at lower levels, that's water under the bridge. Changing it after 6 months would just be unfair and create a black market for those items.

---

Weapons:

1. Alignment effects not breaking DR on weapons.
2. Sceptres, handwraps, repeating cross bows and what-not should drop when loot is set to be non class specific.
3. Plain paralyzing on high level weapons, when even improved paralyzing is a joke at epic levels.
4. Keen, is just broken from what it was, Keen 1 on level 30 items? Where's Keen II, III, IV.
5. Ranged only effects on melee weapons, this should never happen.
6. Melee only effects on ranged weapons, this should never happen.
7. Disruption is missing, needs the improved and greater version to scale with epics.
8. Smiting is missing, needs the improved and greater version to scale with epics.
9. Banishing is missing, needs the improved and greater version to scale with epics.
10. Vicious is missing.
11. Transmuation is missing.
12. Metaline is missing.
13. Everbright is missing.
14. Ghost touch, Ghostbane missing.
15. Not going to list the 40 or so effects feather of sun introduced, they were probably removed intentionally.
16. The replacement for Bane damage naming is a mess.
17. The replacement for Burst naming is a mess.
18. Vorpals at level 1, was this supposed to be a generic replacement for the missing instant kill weapons?
19. Matching item effects for caster weapons seem incredibly rare. its probably easier to win the lottery.
20. Caster stats now on any two handed weapon, instead of mostly staffs with all caster efefcts and a 3rd bonus caster effect
21. Even if this is intentional, caster effects are very numerous and blow out the loot generation from a numerical stand point.

1, Yes this should be fixed, or a developer should come and explicitly state that this is WAI, and that players should use named/augments. I feel it was indeed an oversight
2, Haven't seen scepters in a while now that you mention it, and I agree if set to non specific you should see each weapon type drop at equal chance.
3, Yeah, any DC effects on weapons are ***, have made a suggestion to change to 5-10+ml+enhancement
4, I agree Keen should scale better with chances to drop higher levels of keen/impact
5, 6, I totally agree, they should have grouped weapons and give them separate lists of effects. two handed, single handed, ranged. I gave this feedback when introduced. You forgot to mention assassinate on 2 handers lol. I would even go further, but these 3 would make loot allot better already. -> insert meme with Matrix ghosts "We are getting aggravated, Yes we are" (can't fins pic atm).
7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, Have been deprecated to leave them exclusive for effects found on named items.
13, they are looking to maybe return it to the loot tables.
14, I agree.
15, Yes they were, I'dd like to see them returned for at least one of Prefix/Suffix/Bonus slot, as it stands weapons and armor don't compete with named IMO. I can understand why they don't want a chance for 3 double effects on one item, but to have them for one slot would make RGL more interesting.
16, 17, meh. Naming of effects could use a 2nd pass in general.
18, Was an oversight, but I think they will leave it. improved vorpal, and greater vorpal are also missing. (might be wrong).
19, This is by design, and was like this in the old system as well. To get matching effects should be rare IMO, though Q-staves might need to get increased chance due their lackluster nature in todays RGL.
20, Again weapon grouping could/should have been considered (see 5, 6,).
21, I totally agree, but considering 19, It does increase you chance of getting a synergistic caster item.

---

Items:

1. Fortification now scales up too slowly, (the 100% augment is ml 8). Even epic items will often not have 100 fort.
2. False Life now scales up too slowly. Crafted greater false life is +10 levels, and old random loot is similar.
3. Detect secret, true seeing not really working since Harvest Hall update. Scaling is too low even by the time you get to restless isles.
4. Zero bonus effects still dropping, mostly in older bta reward lists.
5. Haven't seen double augment slots since new random loot. And in general augment slots seem a lot rarer.
6. Underwater action is missing.
7. Rings used to be a catch all for all sorts of stats and effects. Now they seem limited, they need to service the wide range of classes.
8. Necklaces used to be a catch all for all sorts of stats and effects. Now they seem limited, they need to service the wide range of classes.
9. Bracers used to be a catch all for all sorts of stats and effects. Now they seem limited, they need to service the wide range of classes.
10. Clothing items used to be sort of pigeon holed ogre power gloves, boots of swiftness and what not. Following traditional D&D loot. Now its pigeon holed into other weird stuff for no reason. Loot needs to serve all classes and builds.
11. Spell resistance missing in item naming.
12. Concentration is grossly over represented on goggles.

1, 2, I think this is by design as now you can also get ins Fort, Yet I agree.
3, ....no opinion here, I think the update to cap their DC was to make the skill more important.
4, Haven't seen any in a while, but yeah they should not exist.
5, Double slots have been deprecated. I see plenty slotted items still drop.
6, I believe its still there maybe in less spots than it used to be, but it is not a high level crafting shard so not unobtainable, also they drop rate on bottle of air was increased, and named items with it are an almost certain to drop in Sorrowdusk and GH chain end reward lists.
7, 8, I agree rings and necks made for perfect "slot what you need" items, now its hard to fit out less run of the mill characters.
9, I can live with bracers not being as versatile if rings/neck would still be.
10, meh.
11, yes oversight.
12, have seen plenty other effects drop on goggles, this might be subjective.

---

Armor:

1. Adamantine and Mithril still not effective as rare armor types should be.
2. Caster effects on armor. The other weapon effects on armor were removed, deadly and what not.
3. Even if this is intentional, caster effects are very numerous and blow out the loot generation from a numerical stand point.
4. Little logic in mixing caster effects with non caster effects.
5. Repair amplification on armor other than docents, this should never happen. Or maybe 1 in a million for that 1 fleshie artificer.
6. Healing amplification on docents, this should never happen. These two seem so common its like its just backwards.

Feel free to suggest other problems with new random loot, that I may have missed, I reserved the second post for additions.

1, Yes I would very much like to see a return of armor/shield materials, and like to see them scale with the current "production types". (battle/magecraft/planeforged).
2, I feel RGL armors are a mess atm,
3, I feel the same way.
4, That's the nature of random loot for ya.
5, 6, I think this is fine, H-amp on docents is nice for helping your healer friend, or when in non forged form like druid/sorc/tree. R-amp on armor is ok(ish) but should indeed be less common than H-amp as it is only useful for a fleshy arti.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Healing amp on docents and repair amp on non-docent armor should be rare, but both should happen. If you're warforged and are a druid, when you use wolf/bear/elemental form then you're affected by healing spells and not by repair spells. I know there aren't many of these builds, but the combination should still occur.

If you're not druid (or tree), you're still affected by healing spells, unless you fell into the Improved Fortification trap. Unless you plan on being entirely self-sufficient, hamp on docents is not a bad thing. My bard has run with enough WF to appreciate the ones with decent hamp!

I think my favorite weapon I've pulled recently was the light repeating crossbow with Assassinate. Oh, if only that actually worked! lol

[Gramh_the_Bard]

So....the problem is....random gen loot is too random for you? >.> cuz that's what i feel the main complaint is.

[janave]

I really do hope they dont consider the rand loot pass "finished", it looks and feels really buggy still. Its a better system as far as a reward is considered.

[LightBear]

For the OP:
Low level effects on high level items, feather falling being the most noticeable.
Some effects do not appear on the item's/weapon's name, like speed.

[JOTMON]

The loot tables are generating pure random mash items.. there is no filtering.. like determaining if the item will be melee focus or magic focus .. everything is just random mash.
hence all the vorpal of x lore scrap we are seeing..

and. Effects occurring on items that don't work..
~doubleshot on handwraps...
~shield bashing on gloves
~tendon slice on armor..
bunch of other effects that don't work either by 'cant work'.. like ranged weapon buffs and tw hander melee weaons like handwraps..., or system blocked behind the scenes.. weapon only effects showing up on armor while would have been nice if it did work programmers have coded the game to not let it work.


Higher level Stats are OP and completely screw the loot tables.
getting +11 stats on level 21 gear with other effects..and yet the Epic Elite version of Gainthold items are only +8 at level 25..
Same with insightful... got a +5 Insightful stat at level 24..

The 2nd loot revamp has flooded the game with items that are out of sync with the stepping stone curve..
Only the best of the best stars aligned randomgens should potentially be better than named..
Instead we are seeing randomgens blowing away named items by 6 or more levels.
This would have been fine if they retroactively improved the named items , but they didn't. they completely ignored all named items for two loot revamps and screwed them all.


Skills gear went the opposite way.. stupid drops of loot gear of +17 at level 30.. I already have +15 at level 15, +20 at level 20..
Traditionally the skills more or less corresponded to the level, now we are just seeing garbage skills bleeding into randomgens vastly inferior to their necessary targets.
yeah, sure theres insightful chance now.. still doesn't explain the garbage regular skills with the scale of everything else.

and what in the hell is going on with Feather fall.. level 30 loot cloak with featherfall and some minor other effects.. the components don't add up to justify the combined level on items that drop with featherfall..

[RD2play]

...snip...
~shield bashing on gloves
~tendon slice on armor..
...snip...

Are you sure these don't work? like having them affect your main hand when holding in off hand, I feel it is nice to be able to slot these effects in a non weapon slot leaving your weapon to have more DPS effects. But yeah if they don't work then....

Higher level Stats are OP and completely screw the loot tables.
getting +11 stats on level 21 gear with other effects..and yet the Epic Elite version of Gainthold items are only +8 at level 25..
Same with insightful... got a +5 Insightful stat at level 24..

The 2nd loot revamp has flooded the game with items that are out of sync with the stepping stone curve..
Only the best of the best stars aligned randomgens should potentially be better than named..
Instead we are seeing randomgens blowing away named items by 6 or more levels.
This would have been fine if they retroactively improved the named items , but they didn't. they completely ignored all named items for two loot revamps and screwed them all.

I agree they should do a pass on older named, It used to be that +6 stat was all you could get from 11-20, I like that they scale better now, but indeed EE named/raid (ans SSS) loot value has been destroyed by it. I also feel the items should be brought in line with the new scaling, they don't have get the highest values but at least be competitive.

Skills gear went the opposite way.. stupid drops of loot gear of +17 at level 30.. I already have +15 at level 15, +20 at level 20..
Traditionally the skills more or less corresponded to the level, now we are just seeing garbage skills bleeding into randomgens vastly inferior to their necessary targets.
yeah, sure theres insightful chance now.. still doesn't explain the garbage regular skills with the scale of everything else.

and what in the hell is going on with Feather fall.. level 30 loot cloak with featherfall and some minor other effects.. the components don't add up to justify the combined level on items that drop with featherfall..

Agreed, +20 skill @20, +22@30 lol, this should indeed scale higher.

[Ulfo]

Effects occurring on items that don't work..
------->skipped<------------------------
~tendon slice on armor..

What last time you login it game and use tendon slice item, guy?

Tendon slice on armor ( or any other non-weapon equipment ) worked perfectly, because it's passive bonus. I'm prefer have tendon slice in any stuff exclude weapon ( weapon single task - do as much pure damage as possible, so any prefix/suffix must do damage, not lame effects). 8)

Don't read outdated wiki, play real game!

[Gremmlynn]

The loot tables are generating pure random mash items.. there is no filtering.. like determaining if the item will be melee focus or magic focus .. everything is just random mash.
hence all the vorpal of x lore scrap we are seeing..

and. Effects occurring on items that don't work..
~doubleshot on handwraps...
~shield bashing on gloves
~tendon slice on armor..
bunch of other effects that don't work either by 'cant work'.. like ranged weapon buffs and tw hander melee weaons like handwraps..., or system blocked behind the scenes.. weapon only effects showing up on armor while would have been nice if it did work programmers have coded the game to not let it work.


Higher level Stats are OP and completely screw the loot tables.
getting +11 stats on level 21 gear with other effects..and yet the Epic Elite version of Gainthold items are only +8 at level 25..
Same with insightful... got a +5 Insightful stat at level 24..

The 2nd loot revamp has flooded the game with items that are out of sync with the stepping stone curve..
Only the best of the best stars aligned randomgens should potentially be better than named..
Instead we are seeing randomgens blowing away named items by 6 or more levels.
This would have been fine if they retroactively improved the named items , but they didn't. they completely ignored all named items for two loot revamps and screwed them all.


Skills gear went the opposite way.. stupid drops of loot gear of +17 at level 30.. I already have +15 at level 15, +20 at level 20..
Traditionally the skills more or less corresponded to the level, now we are just seeing garbage skills bleeding into randomgens vastly inferior to their necessary targets.
yeah, sure theres insightful chance now.. still doesn't explain the garbage regular skills with the scale of everything else.

and what in the hell is going on with Feather fall.. level 30 loot cloak with featherfall and some minor other effects.. the components don't add up to justify the combined level on items that drop with featherfall..

The shield bashing on gloves doesn't work? Well that sucks.

For the rest, that seems to be an issue with what they seem to be going for with the new random loot system. Particularly from their end as far as simplifying updating things goes.

They seem to want a system that is a matter of just setting an effect and it's scaling into the system, without having to edit every loot table it would have been on in the older system. This is probably why the old +1 stats every other level to 11 then nothing till 20 where it starts up again doesn't work and why combined level of effects went away. Consistent scaling across all levels, where ML is just a component of determining the range of results would work better. So the just have to add new effect X to a master table with a scaling factor and plugging the ML of the item being generated into the formula determines how much X the item has.

Though it would have been nice if they had brought named items into line with this, or at least implemented a plan to bring them all up to this standard over time.

[Coyopa]

Even their algorithm that determines ML is borked, though. For example, Livmo got a +4 Int/+1 UMD necklace that was ML 2 (he linked it in game). A few days later, I looted a +4 Int/+1 UMD necklace that was ... ML 6. ***? I was so psyched to loot that until I saw the ML (which at the time was higher than the character I wanted to use it on). Same stats (neither had augment slots) and yet the ML is completely different. It makes no sense.

[RD2play]

Even their algorithm that determines ML is borked, though. For example, Livmo got a +4 Int/+1 UMD necklace that was ML 2 (he linked it in game). A few days later, I looted a +4 Int/+1 UMD necklace that was ... ML 6. ***? I was so psyched to loot that until I saw the ML (which at the time was higher than the character I wanted to use it on). Same stats (neither had augment slots) and yet the ML is completely different. It makes no sense.

It does, as you get effects based on ML, and rolled form a range. So the ml2 had "good" rolls on power, where the ml6 had bad rolls for power.

[Coyopa]

It does, as you get effects based on ML, and rolled form a range. So the ml2 had "good" rolls on power, where the ml6 had bad rolls for power.

Could you explain this further? I still can't see how a necklace with the exact same enchantments can have two different minimum levels.

[RD2play]

Could you explain this further? I still can't see how a necklace with the exact same enchantments can have two different minimum levels.

Ok, lets say you pull an ML2 item, which has a range of 1-3 stat (4 prolly only during loot power boost, whats is called elixer, or weekend) behind the scenes you rolled a 99 thus got +4 stat. (what color was the item Livmo posted? was it MC?)

Then you pulled a ML6 item which has a range of 2-5 stat, behind the scenes you rolled 70 thus got +4, if you would have rolled better you could have gotten +5, and with boost/MC maybe even +6. (We don't know as the ranges at each level are a mystery still atm.)

According to my personal list, UMD wont go up to +2 until +/- level 12, so getting 1 on ml2 and ml6 items is within bounds.

hope this clears it up a bit.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

Is there anywhere where there is a comprehensive list of what ranges are available at each min level? (Didn't see it on the wiki unless im looking in the wrong place)

[Coyopa]

Ok, lets say you pull an ML2 item, which has a range of 1-3 stat (4 prolly only during loot power boost, whats is called elixer, or weekend) behind the scenes you rolled a 99 thus got +4 stat. (what color was the item Livmo posted? was it MC?)

Then you pulled a ML6 item which has a range of 2-5 stat, behind the scenes you rolled 70 thus got +4, if you would have rolled better you could have gotten +5, and with boost/MC maybe even +6. (We don't know as the ranges at each level are a mystery still atm.)

According to my personal list, UMD wont go up to +2 until +/- level 12, so getting 1 on ml2 and ml6 items is within bounds.

hope this clears it up a bit.

Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense now. If I recall correctly, it was just a run-of-the-mill necklace. I don't think it had the bright blue MC border. I don't generally run with loot boosts going, but now that I understand how the algorithm works I think I'll use one from time to time. I have a bunch of treasure hunter's gems (whatever they're called, some are blue and some are orange) stacked up in my shared bank. I get them from time to time from the Daily Dice and generally just throw them into the bank because they never seemed to affect the treasure in the past.

[RD2play]

Is there anywhere where there is a comprehensive list of what ranges are available at each min level? (Didn't see it on the wiki unless im looking in the wrong place)

NO, there is no such list on the wiki. I have been making my own list (long way from being done...) and as it takes a really long time there is none. You could maybe post one up to make it a community effort to find out the ranges. I doubt the devs are going to give us this information as it would invalidate their work on the new RGL.