U50 Preview 2: New Universal Enhancement Tree: Horizon Walker

[CrackedIce]

Why would you go wraith?

Oh, it's just something I've always wanted to do. Have the undead healing aura combined with the 20% incorporeal and the 50% concealment with high dodge as an Archer that can do damage.

I'm not talking about highest difficulty builds using ton of past lives. Should be fun for hardcore or quick first life run.

[Itchybeard]

Poor forgotten Harper would like to have a word with you. "Weakest and wonkiest tree" is its rightful title, and you shan't take it from one that has held it for so long.

This tree looks and feels a bit stronger than Feydark.

I just about died laughing; I'm gonna need a raise dead cast on me

[Carpone]

So you are saying you do not use paralyzing arrow on your DWS.... I just want to be sure we are hearing your argument correctly... You ever play a falcon monkcher? Did you use paralyzing arrow then?

Monkcher hasn't been worth playing since Fall of Truth was endgame content. With U50, splashing 1 Monk for Greater Sun Stance is about as much of a revival of monkcher as it gets.

I mean if your wisdom is low why do it?

You tell me since you're the one enamored by paralyzed mobs.

Play the game however you want to play. Just don't pretend that AA Paralyze/14 Cleric has any place in a discussion about DPS. With the exception of Arrow of Slaying and the capstone, the entire AA tree is anemic. AA is one of the oldest trees in the game and painfully shows its age.

If you want to compare apples to apples, then provide the condensed stats for your build, like this:

13 Rogue/6 Ranger/1 Monk nets this:
094 DEX (105 for trance)
418 Ranged Power (523 burst)
118 Doubleshot (148 burst)
233 Base damage against Marked Target (257 situational)
177 Sneak Attack To-Hit
123 Sneak Attack Damage (138 burst)
031 Critical confirmation and damage
102 Fortification Bypass (117 burst)

[Enderoc]

Monkcher hasn't been worth playing since Fall of Truth was endgame content. With U50, splashing 1 Monk for Greater Sun Stance is about as much of a revival of monkcher as it gets.


You tell me since you're the one enamored by paralyzed mobs.

Play the game however you want to play. Just don't pretend that AA Paralyze/14 Cleric has any place in a discussion about DPS. With the exception of Arrow of Slaying and the capstone, the entire AA tree is anemic. AA is one of the oldest trees in the game and painfully shows its age.

If you want to compare apples to apples, then provide the condensed stats for your build, like this:

13 Rogue/6 Ranger/1 Monk nets this:
094 DEX (105 for trance)
418 Ranged Power (523 burst)
118 Doubleshot (148 burst)
233 Base damage against Marked Target (257 situational)
177 Sneak Attack To-Hit
123 Sneak Attack Damage (138 burst)
031 Critical confirmation and damage
102 Fortification Bypass (117 burst)

Sure if you want to show off gear sets instead of actual builds make a thread for it...and how many pots you drank etc

[Carpone]

Sure if you want to show off gear sets instead of actual builds make a thread for it...and how many pots you drank etc

You mean like a complete bow guide for U49? I'll be doing the same for U50 when it's released. Here's a preview.

[Epicsoul]

You mean like a complete bow guide for U49? I'll be doing the same for U50 when it's released. Here's a preview.

Thanks for contributing to community knowledge instead of harming it.

[Bacon_Burger]

You mean like a complete bow guide for U49? I'll be doing the same for U50 when it's released. Here's a preview.

Problem is, this looks good on paper, but anything w/ HW plays wonky and SLOW.

[Tyrande]

Problem is, this looks good on paper, but anything w/ HW plays wonky and SLOW.

Okay, you think its wonky and SLOW. How would you fix it though? Besides putting the dex trance on T2 to fit your build...

All I saw on your posts are complains and no good feedback as to how to improve it?



For me, I would say get rid of the opening shot/take the opening and add them to Corner the Quarry, and add Etherealness and Teleport, to the SLA list for the planar walker theme. Make Scatter Shot more like Fan of Knives from Vistani Knife Fighter, but longer range.

The Etherealness sort of like the Shadai Kai shadow phase and shadow jaunt, but longer duration instead of just what 6 seconds?
Maybe more like shadow walk, but get rid of the purple color.
Also, people don't like the purple outline, maybe get rid of it?

[Enderoc]

Thanks for contributing to community knowledge instead of harming it.

Most of his power is coming from gear not his build which could be applied to any build...but I am sure you are guildship bunkies so we will leave it at that

[Carpone]

Most of his power is coming from gear not his build which could be applied to any build

But you can't use the same gear, because you'll be slotting for Enchantment DCs, or elemental damage for mobs not affected by paralyze. If you're extremely lucky, the Enchantment DC/Elemental damage gear will be the same slot so you can swap between them to minimize gear tetris and further DPS loss.

41 HW
24 AA (paralyze arrow and elemental arrow)
12 DWS for core 3, Favored Damage 1
19 Wood Elf
--
96

With that build you're exchanging 6 FE damage, 5% doubleshot, Haste Boost and Deflect Arrows for Paralyze Arrows and Elemental Arrow. Without accounting for any gear changes such as elemental spellpower, using the AA build split results in 346.55 less damage per auto-attack arrow against a Marked Target. Against a favored enemy, the AA build does 531.28 less damage per auto-attack arrow.

There is absolutely no way Elemental Arrow is going to come close to bridging that damage gap. Bows have a beefy crit profile but Elemental Arrow can't crit. The damage delta is exacerbated further when you factor in additional damage loss from gear you have to swap out to accommodate for Enchantment DC/Elemental damage.

[Bacon_Burger]

Okay, you think its wonky and SLOW. How would you fix it though? Besides putting the dex trance on T2 to fit your build...

All I saw on your posts are complains and no good feedback as to how to improve it?



For me, I would say get rid of the opening shot/take the opening and add them to Corner the Quarry, and add Etherealness and Teleport, to the SLA list for the planar walker theme. Make Scatter Shot more like Fan of Knives from Vistani Knife Fighter, but longer range.

The Etherealness sort of like the Shadai Kai shadow phase and shadow jaunt, but longer duration instead of just what 6 seconds?
Maybe more like shadow walk, but get rid of the purple color.
Also, people don't like the purple outline, maybe get rid of it?

Have you played one on Lamannia?

YES PLEASE

[FixBows]

Let me chime in here. I have been playing a bow build of some sort since 2006 March. Don't let my signature fool you. I have tried a lot of builds and have realized a few truths/facts. If you want dps to this point, it is burst dps. You will see 1 incredibly high burst number once every so often followed by mediocre and slowly (vs thrower and inquisitive) produced numbers. Will the changes we saw in u49 and pending u50 help this? Why yes, your burst will go down and your theory crafted damage will go up. By theory crafted, I mean if you are good enough with a keyboard to mark a target, tumble, and do all the buffs/trance clicks and such to prep your Hunt's End/fury shot before a caster nukes your marked target. Of course on Lamannia, you have the target dummies where you can leisurely prep your shots and screen shot your highest damage number to post here, but will that ever really happen in a group/quest? Can you survive in reaper solo with single target dps and no way to cc mobs? I am guessing no, but maybe I am missing something here.

My point is, do not muddle dps and cc builds for archers as they are way different and for different playstyles. HW will be nice for single target dps. If you like standing still for AF, tumbling, and marking targets, you will be very excited to play this. If you like hitting more things for less damage, crowd control, and playing solo, you will probably tend to the wisdom/falconry builds.

[Tyrande]

Let me chime in here. [...]
My point is, do not muddle dps and cc builds for archers as they are way different and for different playstyles. HW will be nice for single target dps. If you like standing still for AF, tumbling, and marking targets, you will be very excited to play this. If you like hitting more things for less damage, crowd control, and playing solo, you will probably tend to the wisdom/falconry builds.

Good feedback, FixBows. My character tend to like more CC and AOE. Currently my ranger is running Falconry...

But my ranger loves raidi too, so the single target DPS may help.

But can you combine the good things from AA, DWS and Falconry into one tree though. My ranger is a pet lover, what can I say?

My ranger is going to miss Paralyzing Arrows, Smiting Arrows and Banishing Arrows since HW doesn't have them. :\

[Carpone]

If you want dps to this point, it is burst dps.

No argument. But DDO makes it extremely difficult to compare "burst". It's much easier to determine average damage per hit as a baseline, then scale accordingly with the burst ability.

before a caster nukes your marked target.

Nukers are dead at end-game. If you meant insta-kill DC Sorcs, then I agree. But you make my point. Optimizing for trash mobs is lunacy as they don't last long. The game isn't played in a vacuum -- there are 5 other people in the group.

Can you survive in reaper solo with single target dps and no way to cc mobs? I am guessing no, but maybe I am missing something here.

You forgot about perching.

[Tyrande]

No argument. But DDO makes it extremely difficult to compare "burst". It's much easier to determine average damage per hit as a baseline, then scale accordingly with the burst ability.


Nukers are dead at end-game. If you meant insta-kill DC Sorcs, then I agree. But you make my point. Optimizing for trash mobs is lunacy as they don't last long. The game isn't played in a vacuum -- there are 5 other people in the group.


You forgot about perching.

Not just DC Sorcs, but any caster. There is this FvS who likes to IK. He runs around in the Dryad and Demigod while he was supposedly to be in the center. Anyhow, the long story short is he got all the feys and the bugs before even the ranger got a shot in, but the raid failed.

Perching is really quest dependent. Very few raid or quest have them.

[Sylveny]

I guess there is a lot of difference between expectation and reality on this tree.

I see many people, maybe most, was expecting something that would make it feel good to level with a bow build, independent of party composition or if soloing (a reality that many ddo players play, including me most of the time).

That's sad because this tree doesn't answer that, it does indeed make single target dps better, running high reaper with a fixed party, where your job is high priority targets and bosses, but lets make this very clear, not everyone is looking for that in a dps bow build, it's fine if some do, but that's not everyone's reality (completionist, all geared up and with acess to everything, looking to do the hardest content on the game with a party on the same status).

This is even sadder because there won't be another bow universal tree, there won't be another bow pass in recent years, this is all we'll be left with, on one of the most popular play styles (not just ranged, I'm talking about bows specifically).

[Carpone]

expecting something that would make it feel good to level with a bow build, independent of party composition or if soloing [...] That's sad because this tree doesn't answer that

What on earth are you talking about? Horizon Walker is excellent for leveling even when soloing:

1st level: Opening Shot
2nd level: Take the Opening
3rd level: T3 DEX trance
6th level: T4 Immobilization and Haste SLA. You have more ranged alacrity than people running around with the Abbot quiver, all the way to endgame. It doesn't even require spell components.
12th level: T5
etc.

All of that independent of whatever class split you may have.

Horizon Walker may not look flashy, but it's mechanically effective.

[Kza]

What on earth are you talking about? Horizon Walker is excellent for leveling even when soloing:

1st level: Opening Shot
2nd level: Take the Opening
3rd level: T3 DEX trance
6th level: T4 Immobilization and Haste SLA. You have more ranged alacrity than people running around with the Abbot quiver, all the way to endgame. It doesn't even require spell components.
12th level: T5
etc.

All of that independent of whatever class split you may have.

Horizon Walker may not look flashy, but it's mechanically effective.

Ohh, thanks for this! Now i start to get excited :-) (I have started to get too old, cynical and negative, this seems really fun and good tbh)

[donblas]

Why yes, your burst will go down and your theory crafted damage will go up. By theory crafted, I mean if you are good enough with a keyboard to mark a target, tumble, and do all the buffs/trance clicks and such to prep your Hunt's End/fury shot before a caster nukes your marked target. Of course on Lamannia, you have the target dummies where you can leisurely prep your shots and screen shot your highest damage number to post here, but will that ever really happen in a group/quest? Can you survive in reaper solo with single target dps and no way to cc mobs? I am guessing no, but maybe I am missing something here.

.

I'm not sure that theory crafting and practical dexterity on a keyboard have anything to do with each other. Both might help one do well, though.

And theory crafting doesn't have anything to do with practical small-sample-size damage screen shots of killing dummies.

And yes, Caprone's max dps build won't be the same as a wisdom CC build, obviously. And his build is explicitly not meant for soloing, but it might do some interesting things for a solo player, too..

[FixBows]

But can you combine the good things from AA, DWS and Falconry into one tree though.

Yes