U50 Preview 2: New Universal Enhancement Tree: Horizon Walker

[FixBows]

Yes

Well not 1 tree, but one build. Sorry, cannot edit my posts so....

[droid327]

Okay, you think its wonky and SLOW. How would you fix it though?

Reduce Opening and Corner to 4s to match Mark, so your kill cycle stays consistent and a little faster than in Preview 2

Add an AOE CC (Daze, probably) so that you can control packs while single-targeting them one at a time

The build doesnt feel bad, just methodical...until you get overwhelmed and that method turns to madness

[Enderoc]

This AOE argument is pretty lame...what tree gives AOE for ranged?
If you cant seem to grasp target next enemy, mark enemy, fire until dead dont ever play the healer js
Gameplay for most casters and ranged is mobile..casters get AOE because they dont have unlimited sp...the exception is warlock.
If you want to play warlock play it...dont try to make everything like warlock.
Thats kind of sad the argument is...HW is nothing like warlock.
Can you give it a break already?
No its nothing like warlock...and if you spec it right you dont need to rely on crits, sneak attacks, and armor piercing to make your crits and sneak attacks give you the damage you are looking for
But I digress...
Go with what you know I guess... Heavy fort mobs are more common than those who have resistance to both force and elemental and spellcraft only adds damage dice, while you have to struggle to keep the dice and multipliers in the damage dice you do have just to get some added damage on top of what you lost from fort.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I see many people, maybe most, was expecting something that would make it feel good to level with a bow build, independent of party composition or if soloing (a reality that many ddo players play, including me most of the time).

That's sad because this tree doesn't answer that...

Assuming you use stones to skip L1 by the time you hit the Harbor you're going to have Opening Shot, Take the Opening, and Dex Trance. Adding the bonus damage from Ranger PLs (which the majority of bow users will have) and you'll be blowing through every boss/reaper you face. That doesn't feel fun/easy to you?

[Tyrande]

This AOE argument is pretty lame...what tree gives AOE for ranged?
[...]

Technically the Shiradi Champion tree Rain of Arrows and the AA tree Final Strike give range AOE.

Also, some bows have range AOE, like Void, the Endless cold. If you slot the meteoric star ruby on the slot, it also provides range AOE occasionally.

Supposedly HW Scatter Shot is range AOE, but I heard its only 3 shots in rapid succession in different directions?

[Steelstar]

Supposedly HW Scatter Shot is range AOE, but I heard its only 3 shots in rapid succession in different directions?

It's described in its entirety in the first post of this very thread, does exactly what it says it does

[Carpone]

Bows already have AOE via IPS. The trade off is reduced Ranged Power from Archer's Focus.

The Frozen Terror from Void, the Endless Cold is a strawman for AOE. Its vorpal dmg it's so negligible it doesn't register in DPS calcs, same as Meteoric Star Ruby.

[CrackedIce]

Bows already have AOE via IPS. The trade off is reduced Ranged Power from Archer's Focus.

The Frozen Terror from Void, the Endless Cold is a strawman for AOE. Its vorpal dmg it's so negligible it doesn't register in DPS calcs, same as Meteoric Star Ruby.

I have been debating whether the monk mantle AOE attack from the upcoming epic destiny is worth giving up on a primal mantle. I am not sure that it is.

Also, for me, the biggest letdown is the combination of 20% less damage and the loss of ranged power from AF for IPS. I really do not think the 20% less damage is required anymore. (IPS + adrenaline + manyshot + slaying arrow(or wtr) is dead)

[Tilomere]

Assuming you use stones to skip L1 by the time you hit the Harbor you're going to have Opening Shot, Take the Opening, and Dex Trance. Adding the bonus damage from Ranger PLs (which the majority of bow users will have) and you'll be blowing through every boss/reaper you face. That doesn't feel fun/easy to you?

Hard:


R3:

Winged uberpletionist best-in-slot everythingist bow build takes ~3 shots to kill a hard difficulty mob, ~6 for elite, ~9 for low reaper in IPS mode by end of heroics. Reapers take about 15 shots. Group of 6 mobs 2 reapers hitting 2 mobs at a time with IPS is 4 sets of kills, for 15 shots for reaper 1 + mob, 15 shots for reaper 2 + mob2, 9 shots for mob3 + mob4, 9 shots for mob5 + mob6 = 48 shots. 1 shot/second in heroics = 48 second group kills while leveling with a bow.

3 seconds with spells. AoE helpless CC + AoE1 + AoE2.

By the end of heroics, it is ~16x more fun killing a group of mobs in heroic low reaper on a bow than a caster. Way too much fun!

[Sylveny]

Winged uberpletionist best-in-slot everythingist bow build takes ~3 shots to kill a hard difficulty mob, ~6 for elite, ~9 for low reaper in IPS mode by end of heroics. Reapers take about 15 shots. Group of 6 mobs 2 reapers hitting 2 mobs at a time with IPS is 4 sets of kills, for 15 shots for reaper 1 + mob, 15 shots for reaper 2 + mob2, 9 shots for mob3 + mob4, 9 shots for mob5 + mob6 = 48 shots. 1 shot/second in heroics = 48 second group kills while leveling with a bow.

3 seconds with spells. AoE helpless CC + AoE1 + AoE2.

By the end of heroics, it is ~16x more fun killing a group of mobs in heroic low reaper on a bow than a caster. Way too much fun!

Yeah, they say ranged shouldn't have AoE like casters because it's a limited resource, but this is just valid in long raids, I guess to level up we have to suffer or just be complacent and join a reaper group to level fast, or solo slow.

The argument that any build is doing fine with all ranger PL and tons of stones to skip the painfully slow levels 1-3 is just not an argument to be made about this tree, because that way you are leveling just as "fast" as with any other ranged build, my argument was that there was not an improvement, and there wasn't.

Haste as a SLA is fine, but not an argument that justify anything, haste pots aren't expensive to anyone past first life.
This tree is just as fast to level as a DWS leveling process, but DWS is not a new tree.

[Carpone]

I guess to level up we have to suffer or just be complacent and join a reaper group to level fast, or solo slow.

That argument is independent of whatever build you're playing. Group play is always faster than soloing.

[Tyrande]

Winged uberpletionist best-in-slot everythingist bow build takes ~3 shots to kill a hard difficulty mob, ~6 for elite, ~9 for low reaper in IPS mode by end of heroics. Reapers take about 15 shots. Group of 6 mobs 2 reapers hitting 2 mobs at a time with IPS is 4 sets of kills, for 15 shots for reaper 1 + mob, 15 shots for reaper 2 + mob2, 9 shots for mob3 + mob4, 9 shots for mob5 + mob6 = 48 shots. 1 shot/second in heroics = 48 second group kills while leveling with a bow.

3 seconds with spells. AoE helpless CC + AoE1 + AoE2.

By the end of heroics, it is ~16x more fun killing a group of mobs in heroic low reaper on a bow than a caster. Way too much fun!

I guess to fix this problem, just remove the stacking spell powers from different class, in this case, only the spell powers from (the highest caster level) Sorcerer will count?

You were comparing a spell power 539 to a range power of only 79... a 7x difference...

Also, you are not running the same quest killing the same monster... you gotta show the archer being killed and surrounded by the monsters to convince the devs. :P

The bow that your archer using is not a named raid Abott bow, but the quarterstaff looks like Twilight, maybe just a glamor of it. Is it named though?

[Carpone]

You were comparing a spell power 539 to a range power of only 79... a 7x difference...

You can't compare Spellpower and Ranged Power directly. The abilities that rely on these mechanics have completely different scaling from one another.

[Sylveny]

That argument is independent of whatever build you're playing. Group play is always faster than soloing.

That's not the point I'm trying to make, the point is that it's so slow to solo with bow build, that you're almost compelled to play in groups.

I know that not every build is supposed to be the best to solo and roll through content, but the disparity is huge. My point beeing, that it was my (and maybe some more people) expectation that this Universal Tree would help in that way, but that's just expectation, not reality of what we are going to get.

[Tilomere]

You were comparing a spell power 539 to a range power of only 79... a 7x difference...

The bow that your archer using is not a named raid Abott bow, but the quarterstaff looks like Twilight, maybe just a glamor of it. Is it named though?

It is actually 703 lightning spell power (~650 un-boosted) + 150 (maximize is always on) = ~800 unboosted, or 10x as much power. Twilight is glamour (had to put it to some use after they nerfed it).

Staff is named, bow is cannith crafted double augmented and is better than Abbot one I would still like to return.

You can't compare Spellpower and Ranged Power directly. The abilities that rely on these mechanics have completely different scaling from one another.

Sure you can when you are in situations where mana is sufficient, such as leveling. Spells and arrows both fire about 1x/second. They both hit limited AoE (spells have massive advantage), they both hit for about the same base damage before power multiplication in heroics. They both improve by crit about the same, with weapons improving more, but failing to crit more as well due to fortification. Spells end at ~10x as much power in heroics. Spell and melee/ranged power function equivalently on their respective bases.

[Tyrande]

It is actually 703 lightning spell power (~650 un-boosted) + 150 (maximize is always on) = ~800 unboosted, or 10x as much power.

Staff is named, bow is cannith crafted double augmented and is better than Abbot one I would still like to return.

Which Dev allowed level 18 named weapons to be sentient? That's using epic power at a heroic level. Its bugged and should be fixed.

@Lynnabel fix this bug?

[Tilomere]

Which Dev allowed level 18 named weapons to be sentient? That's using epic power at a heroic level. Its bugged and should be fixed.

@Lynnabel fix this bug?

It was a bug, but it is now WAI as stated further on in that post. But that's only a small fraction of the total fun increase of a bow and makes up for the wonky caster split I'm using.

Why can't they just add 3 melee/ranged power per heroic level, and just eliminate melee and ranged power from epic destinies? Melee and ranged power and doublestrike/shot are supposed to be replacements for the lack of the 5 attack sequence one gets in PnP. Holding them hostage until level 20 with Epic Destinies is destroying heroic balance and hybrid build space. Leveling up from 1 to 1.5 attacks with doubleshot with your bow with 79 ranged power through heroics is less than half the proper scaling one should have.

Or, additionally, I'm still a fan of cutting heroic spell power itemization (all of it) in half. Every item you have in heroics has half spell power until you hit level 20.

[Carpone]

Imagine comparing performance of a sentient weapon against a cannith crafted weapon.

[Tilomere]

Imagine comparing performance of a sentient weapon against a cannith crafted weapon.

Best in slot is best in slot.

Feel free to compare melee vs. ranged vs. caster at level 15 to see if the result is any different if you want. No sentience or cannith crafted weapons there!

[Marshal_Lannes]

Winged uberpletionist best-in-slot everythingist bow build takes ~3 shots to kill a hard difficulty mob, ~6 for elite, ~9 for low reaper in IPS mode by end of heroics. Reapers take about 15 shots. Group of 6 mobs 2 reapers hitting 2 mobs at a time with IPS is 4 sets of kills, for 15 shots for reaper 1 + mob, 15 shots for reaper 2 + mob2, 9 shots for mob3 + mob4, 9 shots for mob5 + mob6 = 48 shots. 1 shot/second in heroics = 48 second group kills while leveling with a bow.

3 seconds with spells. AoE helpless CC + AoE1 + AoE2.

By the end of heroics, it is ~16x more fun killing a group of mobs in heroic low reaper on a bow than a caster. Way too much fun!

A) What does this have to do with blowing through the Harbor on L3 quests?
B) I really question your extrapolation since my archaic ranger who hasn't been updated in 5 years kills things on hard with one shot. I'll leave the reaper breakdown to Carpone who seems fine with the DPS output.