Vanguard Paladin for new players

[xBunny]

Make sure to take the "Armor Training" enhancement in the Vanguard tree. It's tier 1 on the far right. This gives a bonus to balance, jump and intimidate, plus it reduces the armor check penalty from your armor and shield. If you spend 3 APs (which you're likely going to need to spend anyways to get further up in the tree), then this affectively gives +6 to balance, +6 to jump and +3 to intimidate. I think this enhancement is often overlooked, but is quite useful.

In game description it says +1/+2/+3 only. Took that one to access other enchantments.

[EllisDee37]

In game description it says +1/+2/+3 only. Took that one to access other enchantments.

Reducing the armor check penalty bumps Jump and Balance another +3 each for +6 total if you take all 3 ranks.

[Hirosue]

*****Paladin Vanguard gets its power from shield bashes and doublestrike.*****

To get the most from pally vanguard you need to maximise /shield bashes /double strike/ attack speed /and Strength/

Taking THF feats for glancing blows with bastard sword doesnt add much damage at all. I think its a mistake to use up feats for a small amout of glancing damage.

Vanguard Paladin is primarially single target DPS and Agro grabbing from intimidates.

Since this build was first posted . Epic defensive fighting has been added .You dont need THF feats to get EDF *Bonus Hit points* . You can get it from the shield mastery line.

[Coffey]

*****Paladin Vanguard gets its power from shield bashes and doublestrike.*****

To get the most from pally vanguard you need to maximise /shield bashes /double strike/ attack speed /and Strength/

Taking THF feats for glancing blows with bastard sword doesnt add much damage at all. I think its a mistake to use up feats for a small amout of glancing damage.

Vanguard Paladin is primarially single target DPS and Agro grabbing from intimidates.

Since this build was first posted . Epic defensive fighting has been added .You dont need THF feats to get EDF . You can get it from the shield mastery line.

When did they add shield mastery feats as prerequisites for epic defensive fighting?

I also get the feeling that he wasn't aware that you get glancing blows when you're only fighting one enemy; all the glances go to that single target. Given that, I can't imagine that khopesh would out-dps a bastard sword under pretty much any circumstance.

I dont know if i ever read this as part of single target damage.

I do know the KOTC light imbue processes on glancing blows.

[Hirosue]

Hi Coffey

I edited my post above for clarity.*bonus Hit points*

The tool tip for EDF doesnt say it , however " improved shield mastery" grants bonus HP as a combat style.

4 feats for 30% more damage on glancing blows with BS vs x3 critical multiplier of kopesh for 1 feat.

BS x2 crits vs kopesh x3 .On average the kopesh comes out slightly ahead of BS (including glancing damage) for 3 feats less.

[EllisDee37]

4 feats for 30% more damage on glancing blows with BS vs x3 critical multiplier of kopesh for 1 feat.

BS x2 crits vs kopesh x3 .On average the kopesh comes out slightly ahead of BS (including glancing damage) for 3 feats less.

Assuming the full THF line, glancing blows do 60% of your base (non-crit) damage 3 out of every 4 swings:

Base Damage = x

Glancing blows = (x * 0.6) * 0.75 = 0.45x net damage every hit

Let's compare with crit bonuses of Improved Critical, Holy Sword, and Celestial Champion. (Overwhelming Critical is ignored because it adds the same 2x per 20 swings for both weapons)

Khopesh
Base Damage = x
Crit Profile: 15-20x4
After 20 swings: 13x (non-crit) + 6*4x (crits) = 37x damage

Bastard Sword
Crit Profile: 15-20x3
Base Damage = x
After 20 swings: 13x (non-crit) + 6*3x (crits) + 19*0.45x(glancing blows) = 39.55x damage


The above is the best case scenario for a khopesh and it still falls short:

• Single target (minimized glancing blow damage)
• +1 crit range from Celestial Champion (maximizing crit multiplier difference)
• We're totally ignoring glancing blow weapon procs, which trigger 1 out of 7 swings (~3 per 20 rolls)

Switching to Legendary Dreadnought for blitz and facing multiple enemies both propel bastard sword even further ahead.


EDIT: It's also ignoring KotC light procs, which are largely irrelevant in higher levels but are a great dps boost in early levels for a new player.

And finally, the [1d10] base damage of bastard sword compared to [1d8] for khopesh scales with +[W] bonuses and crits, so that adds a bit to the bastard sword from level 1 all the way to 30.

[Fedora1]

[*]We're totally ignoring glancing blow weapon procs, which trigger 1 out of 7 swings (~3 per 20 rolls)[/list]

And glancing blow damage is also vs multiple targets when applicable.

[EllisDee37]

And glancing blow damage is also vs multiple targets when applicable.

Yep. Specifically, each mob in range adds a flat 8.55x damage per 20 swings regardless what crit modifiers you have. (Because they don't crit.)

                   Number of mobs in range
                 1        2        3        4        5
Khopesh:        37x      37x      37x      37x      37x
Bastard Sword:  39.55x   48.1x    56.65x   65.2x    73.75

I don't know how often you'll have 5 mobs in range of your glancing blows, but when it happens your dps will be double that of a khopesh. What I can say is that it's very common to be facing 2 or 3 mobs at one time, both of which give a significant advantage to the bastard sword. And again, even against one target bastard sword is still ahead of khopesh.

Obviously during group fights you'll be cleaving, but that doesn't help khopesh because individual cleave hits proc their own glancing blows.

[Hjarki]

Assuming the full THF line, glancing blows do 60% of your base (non-crit) damage 3 out of every 4 swings:

Glancing Blows also can't doublestrike. As you near the doublestrike cap, this means Khopesh pulls ahead.

Two other nuances:

- THF suffers twice the penalty from DR as Khopesh (once on the main hit, once on the glancing blow) so having the wrong metal/alignment penalizes you.

- If you're in motion, you only get glancing blows on 50% of your attacks.

[Coffey]

Great answer Thank you for taking the time to set it straight.

And by level 12 you already have 50% glancing blow damage with greater two handed fighting.

And epic defensive fighting will be 25% HP then.

[Coffey]

Glancing Blows also can't doublestrike. As you near the doublestrike cap, this means Khopesh pulls ahead.

Two other nuances:

- THF suffers twice the penalty from DR as Khopesh (once on the main hit, once on the glancing blow) so having the wrong metal/alignment penalizes you.

- If you're in motion, you only get glancing blows on 50% of your attacks.

A tank would be standing still a lot of the time. DR would be mob dependant would it not?

Doublestrike being equal has no bearing.

[EllisDee37]

Glancing Blows also can't doublestrike. As you near the doublestrike cap, this means Khopesh pulls ahead.

I think you're looking at that backwards, as I was at first. (I posted a long mathematical reply confirming your point until I realized I had it backwards so I deleted it.)

Glancing blows can't doublestrike but doublestrikes do proc glancing blows. Whatever your doublestrike value is simply scales the difference in the same direction.

For example, if you have 100% doublestrike, instead of glancing blows adding 8.55x per 20 swings, they add 17.1x per 20 swings, keeping bastard swords ahead of khopesh by the same ratio as if you had no doublestrike at all.

[Coffey]

I lost my mind for a minute i was forgetting doublestrike can crit too haha!

Edit: Ok so the glancing blows on doublestrike makes sense now.

[kamaar7]

This is my first pally and im practically a brand new player....what shield should we use for this? I saw someone post they were using a tower shield. It doesnnt look like you have proficiency for it...Am I missing it, or should I stick to just a large shield?

Really ANY gear guide would be helpful for new players :P. I can look up individual pieces but for now i was just looking at this 2014 page someone listed in this forum....but it says nothing of shield https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5474287

Thanks.

[Alled78]

This is my first pally and im practically a brand new player....what shield should we use for this? I saw someone post they were using a tower shield. It doesnnt look like you have proficiency for it...Am I missing it, or should I stick to just a large shield?

Really ANY gear guide would be helpful for new players :P. I can look up individual pieces but for now i was just looking at this 2014 page someone listed in this forum....but it says nothing of shield https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5474287

Thanks.

Depends on the content u have
Large shield like best defence u find in ravenloft (heroic and epic) are very good

[Varamis]

Hey Ellis-

Realizing that you posted this build with new players in mind, how would PDK, rather than human or dwarf, change your build? Follower of Helm opens up a feat, of course, but also go all-in with charisma and Cormyrean Knight Training (for example)?

And thanks for all the crafting advice as well as the builder. Have played DDO on-and-off for years, and those two things have always served well.

[Merfyn]

Wondering how much the elimination of glancing blow does to this build... I've got one of my older toons fitted out with random gear so I'll probably check this weekend.

[unbongwah]

https://ddowiki.com/page/Update_45_Release_Notes

Hand-and-a-half weapons gain 1.6x damage mod so that's a clear win. Strikethrough is better than glancing blows, probably. KotC got some buffs, but only followers of Helm get bastard swords as deity / Favored weapons. [Not a problem for my build.] OTOH a dwarf can now make dwarven axes a Favored weapon and extra Strikethrough from racial tree, so that's cool.

Overall I'm expecting classic hand-and-half Vanguard builds like this to see some noticeable DPS improvements, but it's not a radical game-changer vs other melee combat styles.

[Fedora1]

https://ddowiki.com/page/Update_45_Release_Notes

Hand-and-a-half weapons gain 1.6x damage mod so that's a clear win. Strikethrough is better than glancing blows, probably. KotC got some buffs, but only followers of Helm get bastard swords as deity / Favored weapons. [Not a problem for my build.] OTOH a dwarf can now make dwarven axes a Favored weapon and extra Strikethrough from racial tree, so that's cool.

Overall I'm expecting classic hand-and-half Vanguard builds like this to see some noticeable DPS improvements, but it's not a radical game-changer vs other melee combat styles.

It was a long long thread with lots of information, but what I got from the ones who tested on Lam was that strikethrough is a dps gain vs 1 or 2 targets, and caps at 3 targets, versus glancing blows affecting as many targets as are in the hit box. Many called it a gain vs 1-2 and a loss vs the old glancing blows against more targets.

On the plus side, cleaves of all kinds can now doublestrike as well.


Divine Might changes appear to be a nerf in epics, probably the same or better in heroics.

[unbongwah]

It was a long long thread with lots of information, but what I got from the ones who tested on Lam was that strikethrough is a dps gain vs 1 or 2 targets, and caps at 3 targets, versus glancing blows affecting as many targets as are in the hit box. Many called it a gain vs 1-2 and a loss vs the old glancing blows against more targets.

The devs made some last-minute buffs after the second Lama preview, in particular Strikethrough always works while moving, the target cap is now 5 (400% Strikethrough), and hand-and-a-half weapon damage mod was increased. I guess we'll see if it's enough to address the complaints.

Divine Might changes appear to be a nerf in epics, probably the same or better in heroics.

Considering they just got 3x STR bonus to damage, it's hard for me to feel bad for 2H builds. The bigger losers will be SWF builds IMO.