Buff Inquisitive more

[Pyed-Pyper]

I am confused by this comment, we were talking about DPS in DDO. I mean, I love RTS games, so we can discuss that if you'd prefer it. For example, assault squad 2. Yes, tanks are powerful, but I have seen so many rookie players get wrecked by good commando work that they can be a trap for them in multiplayer matches (given the cost).

I am saying that every class should bring something to the table, and that to simply compare damage output is a path to reductio ad absurdum.

Do you really want every class, every role, to have equal damage output?

Ranged should perform a role. Melee should perform a role. Casting should perform a role. And so on. Each should provide something useful. That doesn't mean they should have equal DPS.

Maybe DDO had this, or maybe I need to clean my rose-tinted goggles. The current game design philosophy, IMO, seems to be towards simplification, homogenization, and easy scalability (all the better to provide "challenge", lol), moving away from a richly complex environment to something more black-and-white.

Is INQ OP? Probably. It is the warlock du jour. Once sales have plateaued, or the next shiny goes on sale, INQ will get neutered. Where does that leave melee? Ask SSG.

[Zretch]

And how is the meta looking now?

I think it is fine to make mechanics challenging as long as there is some form of compensation. I leveled an INQ to test it, and quick frankly, I fall asleep in groups as much as I did with the blaster sorc.

If I were a ranged DPS, I would be asking for mechanics more engaging for my style.

Well, in raids I'm running now I see more ranged toons, and those ranged toons are actually being asked to take on some important roles in raids (such as away-team leader in PN) but I also see melee toons and casters. What I'm seeing now is a decrease in healers, but that may be because they're all on the HC server.

I agree with the inquisitive mechanics for the base case. I'm not used to having only a couple action buttons on my bar. I paired inquisitive with 15 artificer for Tac Det, so that gave me more to do (throwing converters on folks and healing them, handing out weapon buffs, etc), but most of the time was spent in selecting the back-most target and lining up targets. I'm not a huge ranged combat enthusiast, but I did like the rate of fire much better than longbow or GXB (slow firing makes me believe I'm doing less damage, even if I'm not). I also didn't enjoy the kiting / backpedaling playstyle while soloing, which is why I went for TacDet and played more at Point Blank Shot range. Self healing and an AoE knockdown was a very good combo, and I didn't need that range advantage that's being harped on so much.

I'm not sure inquisitive is going to cause alot of people who love the melee playstyle to now play ranged, but I do know that it will cause some people who used to play AA ranger to switch to crossbow. (Someone in my guild already changed his ranger build to rogue Xbow inquis.)

[Strider1963]

So back to exploit hard and early?

Things like this erode the trust we have in the devs and the integrity with which the game is designed.

Can we freaking stop with the bait and switch, the constant meta switches, the destruction of multiclass in favor of whatever new cookie cutter meta they want to push?

They wanted us to TR so they gave us those absolutely ughhh* racial PLs and reaper XP was way better in heroics (for years?) than in epics.
They wanted to sell warlock so they made it broken good, and then nerfed certain archetypes to the freaking ground (hello melee warlock ES?).
They release a race (tiefling) that is the perfect racial grinder (sorc combo with fast immunity breaking previous to lvl 20).
They release a universal tree (inquisitive), that is better than most class trees and makes it the perfect class PL grinder, aside from being broken good at all levels (heroics and epics).
Soon they will release an excessive (their own words) amount of spells for alchemist, when we have needed a spell pass for years (the vast majority of spells in DDO are absolutely useless).

If you want to get the rewards with the rest of the crowd, pursue that meta like a freaking lemming.

STOP RELEASING BROKEN THINGS! No one, absolutely no one, trusts your internal balance tests and your open statements about what is OP and isn't. Tempest is now OP because it has both high single and multi target DPS? And it wasn't OP when you released that tree and the masses flocked to tempest? You cannot ask us to trust you and then freaking backpedal constantly, release and then criticize and nerf.

I just want to play a relatively balanced content focuses DnD game for old times' sake, and I bet that people like me are a sizeable part of the community. Can we please stop with the Zynga approach to development?


*Backloaded, universally good (vs previous selected PLs), can be grinded in easy buttons (pick the most OP easy button for heroics).

Agree. stop releasing the op p2w classes with op trees, then nerfing them after most everyone has bought them. This has been going on for years, same old, same old. You know the Inquisitor nerf is in the works.

[erethizon]

I don't like playing ranged, I don't play ranged on any of my characters. I prefer melee. I do have the ability to look past my own self interest, however, and realize that when you intentionally gimp ranged players because "they're more safe", you automatically make ranged characters 2nd class DPS, and thus less desired to fill roles in raids and end game questing. That's not balance. DPS classes, whether ranged or melee, need to be competitive with one another. Stop with the self-pity and the "I'm entitled to more damage because I'm melee" b.s. and realize that all DPS classes need to be effective at their primary jobs.

Yes, exactly this. Melee DPS does not need to be better than ranged DPS. Melee characters should excel at defense. To make up for the need to get into the fray they should be able to take (or avoid) physical hits spectacularly well. Where this game went wrong was enabling NPC's to hit for huge amounts of damage, especially to melee characters.

[Kaboom2112]

So was any of this nonsense nerfed in today's update?

[ChadB123]

So was any of this nonsense nerfed in today's update?

Read the release notes.

[Ulfo]

Is that applicable to DDO though?

Yea, sure.

[Xgya]

Yes, exactly this. Melee DPS does not need to be better than ranged DPS. Melee characters should excel at defense. To make up for the need to get into the fray they should be able to take (or avoid) physical hits spectacularly well. Where this game went wrong was enabling NPC's to hit for huge amounts of damage, especially to melee characters.

The Armor Up patch was supposed to help with this... until people realized everyone can wear armor, which led to armies of plated wizards.

If anything gets added to melee survival skills, it has to apply to melee and melee alone.
What that entails is that it cannot be applied to anyone using a melee weapon. Casters use scepters, scepters are melee weapons.

I'd suggest binding it to two things: both using a melee weapon (much like Manyshot works with bows) and requires not having cast a spell recently (sorry Paladins! Maybe a T5 in their class trees to help them work on that issue?)
Any and every spell counts. The group's healer doesn't get to have the melee survival bonus just because they don't cast offensive spells.

[lain5246]

Nah, dwarves have been buff since day one. I mean, have you seen 'em?

The only species buffer than dwarves are warforged, and they use polishing wheels and sandpaper!

I mean, how buff can you get?

where is battle rager iconic?

[lain5246]

The Armor Up patch was supposed to help with this... until people realized everyone can wear armor, which led to armies of plated wizards.

If anything gets added to melee survival skills, it has to apply to melee and melee alone.
What that entails is that it cannot be applied to anyone using a melee weapon. Casters use scepters, scepters are melee weapons.

I'd suggest binding it to two things: both using a melee weapon (much like Manyshot works with bows) and requires not having cast a spell recently (sorry Paladins! Maybe a T5 in their class trees to help them work on that issue?)
Any and every spell counts. The group's healer doesn't get to have the melee survival bonus just because they don't cast offensive spells.

or they could tie a buff related to class lv. problem lies with people min/maxing thus punishing flavor and less explored.

[Karthunk]

So was any of this nonsense nerfed in today's update?

People are still enjoying the product that they paid for. Maybe your dream of getting builds nerfed will happen next patch!

[Zretch]

The Armor Up patch was supposed to help with this... until people realized everyone can wear armor, which led to armies of plated wizards.

If anything gets added to melee survival skills, it has to apply to melee and melee alone.
What that entails is that it cannot be applied to anyone using a melee weapon. Casters use scepters, scepters are melee weapons.

I'd suggest binding it to two things: both using a melee weapon (much like Manyshot works with bows) and requires not having cast a spell recently (sorry Paladins! Maybe a T5 in their class trees to help them work on that issue?)
Any and every spell counts. The group's healer doesn't get to have the melee survival bonus just because they don't cast offensive spells.

You could always put the bonuses in enhancement cores. More comprehensive and larger for tank trees, more focused on avoiding cleaves and splash damage in melee DPS trees. No bonus in core levels 1, 3, and 6, small bonus in core level 12, and significant bonuses in cores 18 and 20. Would prevent ranged from splashing 3 - 6 levels. Bonuses require qualifying for single weapon fighting, two weapon fighting, being in animal form, or improved shield mastery. That would eliminate inquisitive fighters in Kensai, for example.

Not advocating for anything, just trying to think of something that might be better than "defensive stance that inflates hitpoints but removes my ability to throw a scroll because someone's more than 2 feet from me".

[Karthunk]

The Armor Up patch was supposed to help with this... until people realized everyone can wear armor, which led to armies of plated wizards.

If anything gets added to melee survival skills, it has to apply to melee and melee alone.
What that entails is that it cannot be applied to anyone using a melee weapon. Casters use scepters, scepters are melee weapons.

I'd suggest binding it to two things: both using a melee weapon (much like Manyshot works with bows) and requires not having cast a spell recently (sorry Paladins! Maybe a T5 in their class trees to help them work on that issue?)
Any and every spell counts. The group's healer doesn't get to have the melee survival bonus just because they don't cast offensive spells.

Survival for melee is only a real problem in reaper; my suggestion would be to remove the self healing debuff on melee builds. Maybe add in the capstone for a melee enhancement tree the elimination of said penalty. This would go a long ways to letting melee builds help offset the increased damage they take. It's a bandaid fix but it would be something.

[J-mann]

Survival for melee is only a real problem in reaper; my suggestion would be to remove the self healing debuff on melee builds. Maybe add in the capstone for a melee enhancement tree the elimination of said penalty. This would go a long ways to letting melee builds help offset the increased damage they take. It's a bandaid fix but it would be something.

This game has gone far enough to favor pures lately. Not to mention going pure is the easiest and most braindead builds, and building is by far the best part of the game, let's not ruin it by making pure mandatory. Tie it to style feats is a no brainer to me.

[Grailhawk]

The Armor Up patch was supposed to help with this... until people realized everyone can wear armor, which led to armies of plated wizards.

If anything gets added to melee survival skills, it has to apply to melee and melee alone.
What that entails is that it cannot be applied to anyone using a melee weapon. Casters use scepters, scepters are melee weapons.

I'd suggest binding it to two things: both using a melee weapon (much like Manyshot works with bows) and requires not having cast a spell recently (sorry Paladins! Maybe a T5 in their class trees to help them work on that issue?)
Any and every spell counts. The group's healer doesn't get to have the melee survival bonus just because they don't cast offensive spells.

You can use penalties to make it only appealing to Melee the same way Epic Defensive fighting works.

Thinking about this a bit since the discussion is about balancing Roles/Archtypes and not classes how about add a new Background/Role feat (in addition to other feat taken) at first level that every player takes regardless of class; base the new background feat a bit on the 4e roles.

• Defender: <insert flavor text>. Benefits: -10% Melee, Ranged, and Spell Damage, +100% Threat Generation, +100% HP, +25% Shield Deflection*, and +15% Parry Chance*.
• Leader: <insert flavor text>. Benefits: -10% Melee, Ranged, and Spell Damage, +25% HP, +45% Positive and Negative Spell Power, and +100% Duration on All buff and Debuff spells.
• Controller <insert flavor text>. Benefit: On successful save a target must make a second roll with a 15% chance of negating the previous save.
• Blaster <insert flavor text>. Benefits: +20% Ranged and Spell Damage, +30% Melee Damage
• Brute <insert flavor text>. Benefits: +30% Melee Damage, +15% Parry, +40% HP, Cap Spellpower, Spell Critical, Spell Crit Multiplier, Ranged Power, and Doubleshot at 0
• Lurker <insert flavor text>. Benefits: +20% Melee Damage, +5% Parry, +30% HP, Cap Spell Critical Chance at 20%, Cap Spell Crit Multiplier, Ranged Power, and Doubleshot at 0

*Shield Deflection and Parry would be new avoidance channels that work just like dodge
All +X% can scale with character level e.g. +30% Damage is +1% damage per character level

To make some room for the power increase these feat provide remove Epic defensive fighting, and increase Mob HP by 15% and Damage by 5-15% based on damage type Spell +5%, Melee +10%, Ranged +15%.

Number are very high to make sure that the feat insure a massive difference between roles

Just a thought to help make balancing roles easier.

[Xgya]

Survival for melee is only a real problem in reaper; my suggestion would be to remove the self healing debuff on melee builds. Maybe add in the capstone for a melee enhancement tree the elimination of said penalty. This would go a long ways to letting melee builds help offset the increased damage they take. It's a bandaid fix but it would be something.

That's a pretty awful way to look at it.
Melees aren't healers. Healing isn't their main job.
Some melee builds have exactly zero self-healing.
Anything that helps melee characters should be a buff to being in melee.

If anything, your suggestion is a buff to the new undead EKs running around, and I don't really think they need that.

I'd want the benefits to be tied to a combat style (and their respective feats)
I want the benefits to go away (for a period I'm ready to discuss) as soon as the character does something that's NOT melee, be it healing, reviving allies, casting spells, disabling a trap, equipping a ranged weapon... If you're doing any of those, you're not fighting in melee. Anything that should be helping melees survive being in melee should stop applying.
Want to heal yourself? Step back and heal, stop fighting for a while, or at least accept the fact you're not as resilient as usual because you just did something opposed to the playstyle we're trying to help. Better yet: get healed by someone else, continue fighting, no benefits lost!
Want to cast at a group of enemies instead of hitting them with your shiny metal stick? Go ahead, but assume the risks. Can it be advantageous to do so? Sure! A dead or CC'ed group of mobs is much less dangerous than one that's hitting someone that's slightly more resilient, after all.

Another path we could follow would be making melee weapons apply some kind of debuff to enemies that makes them hit the person that hit them (and only that person) hit back for less. So you could still be sneak attacked by a Reaper or other dangerous baddie, and archers/mages could still spell your doom, but once in the thick of it, fighting things, the things you're fighting should be less of an issue.
I'd rather have the option above, making melee characters resilient as long as they're not doing non-melee stuff, but this is still a possible answer.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Survival for melee is only a real problem in reaper; my suggestion would be to remove the self healing debuff on melee builds. Maybe add in the capstone for a melee enhancement tree the elimination of said penalty. This would go a long ways to letting melee builds help offset the increased damage they take. It's a bandaid fix but it would be something.

my oh my...

"DDO won't be balanced around Reaper" *

"Reaper is a special challenge mode" *


* paraphrases of actual quotes


Congrats SSG, you've done it. Pat yourselves on your collective backs for a job well done.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I don't plan to TR in the near future, since most of my alts are under or around level 10 ... only 2 or 3 are around level 15, and that's it.
So, this way I just won't be able to try out the inquisitive tree in low levels within the near future, except it would be buyable through the "Sharn content" with points.

[Tyrande]

You can use penalties to [...]

• Defender: <insert flavor text>. Benefits: -10% Melee, Ranged, and Spell Damage, +100% Threat Generation, +100% HP, +25% Shield Deflection*, and +15% Parry Chance*.
• Leader: <insert flavor text>. Benefits: -10% Melee, Ranged, and Spell Damage, +25% HP, +45% Positive and Negative Spell Power, and +100% Duration on All buff and Debuff spells.
• Controller <insert flavor text>. Benefit: On successful save a target must make a second roll with a 15% chance of negating the previous save.
• Blaster <insert flavor text>. Benefits: +20% Ranged and Spell Damage, +30% Melee Damage
• Brute <insert flavor text>. Benefits: +30% Melee Damage, +15% Parry, +40% HP, Cap Spellpower, Spell Critical, Spell Crit Multiplier, Ranged Power, and Doubleshot at 0
• Lurker <insert flavor text>. Benefits: +20% Melee Damage, +5% Parry, +30% HP, Cap Spell Critical Chance at 20%, Cap Spell Crit Multiplier, Ranged Power, and Doubleshot at 0

[...]

You forgot:
[*]Piker <insert favor text>. Benefits: -50% Melee, Ranged and Spell Damage; Cap Melee, Ranged, and Spell Critical chance at 0%, +50% parry and incorporeal chance.

Also, why would anyone play a Lurker as a rogue melee? Anyone playing non-tanking melee would pick Brute instead, no?

[Pyed-Pyper]

TL;DR: need to nerf Inquisitives, did I get that right? :P

No, not really.

The message you (SSG) should have received is:

"stop releasing brokenly OP things"

If the only, or primary, reason to buy something is because it invalidates everything else from a power perspective, then you (SSG) really haven't done a good job of designing, have you (SSG)?