Buff Inquisitive more

[Emerge2012]

Was Vistani as popular as Inquisitive when released? Especially, before the nerfs?

Absolutely was! And not because it was some ridiculous OP tree either. It was popular because it was new and players like new.

Early on when Vistani Versatility affected any and all weapons there were definitely some exploit builds focused around it before that was fixed. But as a whole, even then, the tree was pretty far from OP and really only optimal for dagger rogues or people wanting a good chunk of early power while leveling a dagger melee.

This whole Inq thing is on a whole new level though. It's not only the best single tree in the entire game but it's also a universal tree and can be set upon any base class to provide an immediate dose of stupidly OP.

[BigErkyKid]

SHHSSSS!!!!! Sorc is completely fair and balanced . . .

It is not, but it requires more work in epics than INQ. Seriously, an undergeared sorc in R+ end game is not going to land anything, do pitiful damage, etc.

That said, the other day i grouped with a 135 Necro DC PM. Great player (respect, he is), great build (tanky, self heals, uber DCs), complitely obliterated content. And it scales, IMHO, better than sorc into high skulls.

Hard to argue for nerfs for DC reliant casters though, given the amount of effort they take.

[Emerge2012]

It is not, but it requires more work in epics than INQ. Seriously, an undergeared sorc in R+ end game is not going to land anything, do pitiful damage, etc.

That said, the other day i grouped with a 135 Necro DC PM. Great player (respect, he is), great build (tanky, self heals, uber DCs), complitely obliterated content. And it scales, IMHO, better than sorc into high skulls.

Hard to argue for nerfs for DC reliant casters though, given the amount of effort they take.

A well-built PM is godly in comparison to everything else. Everything except Inq of course. Sorcs are pretty close though. A high DPS sorc will need another player to perform the helpless CC, but if that's covered a well build sorc can one-shot entire groups of mobs in R10 content.

As it stands right now the game is all about sorc/inq/pm and everything else is just lesser flavor. I mean, you'll always get those people that are like "but muh melee is gud tho" without the context that a caster is performing the CC or that another caster or Inq would be multiple times better at removing those mobs after the CC.

[xprincezuman]

I would always wonder why would people downgrade or request a nerf for a class while its almost available for everyone (not this case specifically)?

Only wants his favorite class builds to be strong not anything else? ugh.

[Emerge2012]

I would always wonder why would people downgrade or request a nerf for a class while its almost available for everyone (not this case specifically)?

Only wants his favorite class builds to be strong not anything else? ugh.

You play a Inq.

[SerPounce]

If it's over-performing, then yeah, it should be tweaked. The rest is just noise. Some people seem to care more about their little conspiracies and internet beefs than logical game improvements.

I've played many inquisitive builds, and I'm working on an endgame inquisitive (on the back burner during hardcore), but things get tweaked in MMOs. It's the nature of the beast. No point getting emotionally invested in a particular version of the game.

[Emerge2012]

If it's over-performing

I've played many inquisitive builds

Pick one.

[SerPounce]

Pick one.

Meh, I just don't want to engage in the whole "is it OP?" discussion. It's always untethered from reality because people are emotionally invested. The devs obviously have they're own system for determining this stuff anyway that has little to do with forum feedback (as they should, forum feedback on build power is generally garbage).

[Aelonwy]

If it's over-performing, then yeah, it should be tweaked.

I agree that adjustments should be made to over-performing things but there are two problems with the tweaks that happen in this game. The how and the when. The how is usually described as being done with a large blunt instrument - sledge hammer, and the when is typically after the newest P2P OP thing has reached market saturation and they want to sell the next new thing. If the tweaks were handled with a little more delicacy (or conversely if they did not release their newest BUY ME power option quite so over-tuned) and the tweaks occurred before market saturation people would be less aggravated with the whole process. This has happened many times over now so I'm not even sure it can legitimately be called a bait and switch anymore, at least not for anyone that's been with the game any length of time. We all know its a paid for but temporary advantage to purchase whatever the newest thing is and that for the short window before the first nerf it will usually be the fastest or easiest way or both, to earn XP.

I'm more interested to know what exactly people think needs to be nerfed about Inq. What tweaks would you make?

[BigErkyKid]

A well-built PM is godly in comparison to everything else. Everything except Inq of course. Sorcs are pretty close though. A high DPS sorc will need another player to perform the helpless CC, but if that's covered a well build sorc can one-shot entire groups of mobs in R10 content.

As it stands right now the game is all about sorc/inq/pm and everything else is just lesser flavor. I mean, you'll always get those people that are like "but muh melee is gud tho" without the context that a caster is performing the CC or that another caster or Inq would be multiple times better at removing those mobs after the CC.

These are the "becnhmark" stats I am using for end game sorcs. Currently ice sorc with wave seems to be the optimal version.

1500 Spell power
100 crit chance
x3 crit multiplier
MLC 41 (wave + dragonborn)

Iceberg with MLC 35 and a vulnerability stacked boss gives me 70K damage (does sorc vulnerability stack additively or multiplicatively with regular vulnerability?).

Energy burst with MLC 41, both vulnerabilities stacked, 109K damage with a 1.7 helpless multiplier.

In 10 skulls, damage adjustment is by 0.154.

This means that burst is doing: 16786=109000*0.154, so yeah, one shotting on average is not insane, but it is a bit of a stretch.

However, I still think PM is better at killing trash. I group with a PM with 135DC and I think that's no fail everywhere (correction anyone?).

I am not sure that sorcs are optimal at anything, but they sure are powerful now and possibly could help speed up things.

Here is how my optimal party is looking these days:

PM for trash clearing.
INQ for boss DPS.
Sorc mid tier for both.
Heals, if needed.
Tank, if needed.

Adjust accordingly if it is a raid or a quest.

I am not sure melee is needed, and melee is orders of magnitude worse at both PL and gear farming.

[Maldorin]

I'm more interested to know what exactly people think needs to be nerfed about Inq. What tweaks would you make?

I think No Holds Barred should recharge over time.

Because Inq needs a buff.

[BigErkyKid]

I agree that adjustments should be made to over-performing things but there are two problems with the tweaks that happen in this game. The how and the when. The how is usually described as being done with a large blunt instrument - sledge hammer, and the when is typically after the newest P2P OP thing has reached market saturation and they want to sell the next new thing. If the tweaks were handled with a little more delicacy (or conversely if they did not release their newest BUY ME power option quite so over-tuned) and the tweaks occurred before market saturation people would be less aggravated with the whole process. This has happened many times over now so I'm not even sure it can legitimately be called a bait and switch anymore, at least not for anyone that's been with the game any length of time. We all know its a paid for but temporary advantage to purchase whatever the newest thing is and that for the short window before the first nerf it will usually be the fastest or easiest way or both, to earn XP.

I'm more interested to know what exactly people think needs to be nerfed about Inq. What tweaks would you make?

The design integrity of the game has been compromised by the store. Sure, since F2P they have been slowly introducing more and more micro trans incentives and options. However, it is now orders of magnitude worse. PLs were power, now they are far more power. New toys were better than existing ones, but now they are massively better.

That people like you are speaking up (sorry, I don't think you are a min maxxer or a very critical player to begin with) should tell them that they turned up the heat far too much. I mean it, and this is not hyperbole, things are getting far worse.

Cue to some dev making fun of our concerns with some veiled insults regarding our tin foil hats.

DDO is phishing for phools at its finest:

https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10534.html

[Aelonwy]

The design integrity of the game has been compromised by the store. Sure, since F2P they have been slowly introducing more and more micro trans incentives and options. However, it is now orders of magnitude worse. PLs were power, now they are far more power. New toys were better than existing ones, but now they are massively better.

That people like you are speaking up (sorry, I don't think you are a min maxxer or a very critical player to begin with) should tell them that they turned up the heat far too much. I mean it, and this is not hyperbole, things are getting far worse.

Cue to some dev making fun of our concerns with some veiled insults regarding our tin foil hats.

DDO is phishing for phools at its finest:

https://press.princeton.edu/titles/10534.html

A little background...

My Inq is only level 3 for various reasons... busy summer, I don't play a lot to begin with, hubby ditched me for HC server (no hard feelings really, but when I want some playtime with him that's my go to phrase), my kids play slow and my static friends have gone to WOW and ESO for the moment.

My Inq was my AA, longbow feels like plinking a way at the mobs with toothpicks for arrows.

Anyways, I've seen how well Inq plays for my hubby, he had a character ready to go with Sharn debut to be a pure rogue Inq (1 monk past life) so his is currently in epics. He compares it to his pure rogue Great Xbow build (1 rog past life), and he says that certain level ranges are better as an Inq, some as Gxbow and its almost entirely due to rate of fire and density of mobs as to which plays better. All in all he likes his gxbow character better but he says there are some situations where Inq really shines. Now note both are pure rog so neither of us has any idea if there is some class split option that makes Inq insanely better.

So I'm interested in what tweaks should be made to Inq that would bring it in-line with the rest of the game without nerfing it to heck (longbow standards of damage) which is what many people really want so it doesn't compare favorably with their massively ground out power build.

[BigErkyKid]

A little background...


So I'm interested in what tweaks should be made to Inq that would bring it in-line with the rest of the game without nerfing it to heck (longbow standards of damage) which is what many people really want so it doesn't compare favorably with their massively ground out power build.

The tree, without dual xbow, is very competitive. I’d argue to the level of mechanic if not more, specially on a universal prestige class.

Now, add the dual Xbow insanity. There is no way to balance that, the whole idea is borked. Attack rate for ranged was never balanced around x2 sources.

Worst part? They could have released inq without the two xbows silly thing and it would have been something like vistani.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HiGisrw6SX0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HiGisrw6SX0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNaRU0GiMR0

My balancing suggestions is to simply delete dual shooter and add, if you must, some alacrity bonus there. Anything short of that is a slap to the face of balance. Aside from the visual and mental insult the two xbows represent. Not only is ugly, physically dubious, but also glitches to death in many instances.

Honestly, it looks and feels like someone unlocked the cheat code for ddo; it is that bad. Paywalling it is just making it a cash grab on top of the other things.

[Emerge2012]

Meh, I just don't want to engage in the whole "is it OP?" discussion. It's always untethered from reality because people are emotionally invested. The devs obviously have they're own system for determining this stuff anyway that has little to do with forum feedback (as they should, forum feedback on build power is generally garbage).

Humans are emotionally invested to some extent in everything we do so I don't think that's great a descriptor. Professionally and financially invested would be better terms to use after all of these years concerning DDO. And that's a problem because up until about April of this year balance was only a few tree tweaks away from being fairly well on point - and then the devs completely threw it out the window by adding Inq, marginalizing melee through proxy reaper buffs and sharn scaling, and pumping PM's and Sorcs through the freaking roof.

And while I absolutely agree that no competent dev team should even consider forums as useful feedback I'd simply point out the DDO dev team is not making good decisions concerning new content, abilities, or balance. Had I been one of those poor saps that bought the 2 year package I'd be incredibly unhappy right now rather than the 'if it's fixed soon I won't cancel my sub and move on' option I have right now.

[Arlandan]

My main character's name on Khyber is KOboom, and I was surprised when I got asked whether we were the same person.

I'm someone that mostly plays Inquisitive, and I do agree they're pretty overwhelming. This is a global tree that entirely outpaces many, MANY class trees, something that I don't think is good for any kind of balanced design space.

I play Inquisitives because before it was released, I was known as "The Crossbow Guy", by all my friends. Any build that used crossbows, I did. Paladin Holy Sword'ed Crossbow? Tried it the next TR after they changed the spell. Arcane Archer repeater user? Did it! EK crossbows? All par for the course, before AND after the EK changes.
I'm still playing Inquisitive to test out the limits of the build, and to get fast racial PLs.

Maybe you're who I'm thinking about then. It does sound like you. I don't blame people for playing something easy when it comes along especially when faced with all the grinding. I think it's actually designed to allow people to catch up or to contribute to a group comprised of people who already have superior gear and all the past lives. The problem is that these completionists, or near completionists, get all doe-eyed when they see the big DPS numbers this could put up in their minds. Then everyone starts running this thing. I stopped playing a DC wizard for a while because, at least for farming through past-lives, I kinda felt like I was depriving people of fun by having a room cleared before people stepped into it. I feel the same way with Inquisitive and it's a ranged DPS build - completely different animal. There are situations where my wizard absolutely needs support to succeed. This is not the case with Inquisitive. The basic strategy most people seem to employ is to jack up sneak attack and kite. And most of them are such horrible kiters who can't kite in a way that the party can work with. Some can, most can't.

As an aside, if they do nerf it I hope it isn't so that it's obsolete. Maybe drop reload and attack speed a bit and make it rely on that NHB thing for the truly jaw-dropping DPS. I never had to use it with the way I play my Inquisitive. Frankly, I think the concept of two small hand-sized crossbows being reloaded with such alacrity is goofy anyway. Maybe that's just me.

As an additional aside, right now I'm playing an undead Inquisitive wizard/rogue/ranger. I'm dropping webs and glitterdusts and trying to jack up my conjuration DCs. A bit more party friendly, imo. Except when I'm with another Inquisitive then it's just race to the finish. Isn't that why we all play though so we can show the next guy how much better we are at clicking and w-keying to the end of a quest?

[Arlandan]

A little background...

My Inq is only level 3 for various reasons... busy summer, I don't play a lot to begin with, hubby ditched me for HC server (no hard feelings really, but when I want some playtime with him that's my go to phrase), my kids play slow and my static friends have gone to WOW and ESO for the moment.

My Inq was my AA, longbow feels like plinking a way at the mobs with toothpicks for arrows.

Anyways, I've seen how well Inq plays for my hubby, he had a character ready to go with Sharn debut to be a pure rogue Inq (1 monk past life) so his is currently in epics. He compares it to his pure rogue Great Xbow build (1 rog past life), and he says that certain level ranges are better as an Inq, some as Gxbow and its almost entirely due to rate of fire and density of mobs as to which plays better. All in all he likes his gxbow character better but he says there are some situations where Inq really shines. Now note both are pure rog so neither of us has any idea if there is some class split option that makes Inq insanely better.

So I'm interested in what tweaks should be made to Inq that would bring it in-line with the rest of the game without nerfing it to heck (longbow standards of damage) which is what many people really want so it doesn't compare favorably with their massively ground out power build.

I played GXBow Mechanic for quite a while back in the day. Off the top of my head I'd say that the main benefit would be expanded vorpal range when running in the fury of the wild or shiradi champion and additional sneak attack dice from the mechanic tree. The trade-off would be twice as many shots from the dual x-bows and law on your side damage die. I imagine it goes without saying that the law on your side damage die also benefits from the twice as many shots thing. It works on everything without the need to make the enemy vulnerable to sneak attack damage and it scales with 200% spellpower. I think you can get like 14d8 law on your side dice depending on what you choose in the tree?

I don't think there's really a fair comparison to be made between the two as a good GXBow Mechanic needs a lot of investment in rogue. If you want to do a split class most people run a repeater build as the GXBow only really shines with heavy investment in rogue.

Edit addendum to post: It could be said that the expanded vorpal range that the GXBow benefits from is actually made an obsolete benefit when dual x-bows have two shots per pull, and so two chances at vorpal. Maybe I'm unaware of a mechanic in place but my observations are that sometimes one of my shots and not both crits, and when I'm using a vorpal the first shot does regular damage, second kills because vorpal.

[Arlandan]

The tree, without dual xbow, is very competitive. I’d argue to the level of mechanic if not more, specially on a universal prestige class.

Now, add the dual Xbow insanity. There is no way to balance that, the whole idea is borked. Attack rate for ranged was never balanced around x2 sources.

Worst part? They could have released inq without the two xbows silly thing and it would have been something like vistani.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HiGisrw6SX0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HiGisrw6SX0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNaRU0GiMR0

My balancing suggestions is to simply delete dual shooter and add, if you must, some alacrity bonus there. Anything short of that is a slap to the face of balance. Aside from the visual and mental insult the two xbows represent. Not only is ugly, physically dubious, but also glitches to death in many instances.

Honestly, it looks and feels like someone unlocked the cheat code for ddo; it is that bad. Paywalling it is just making it a cash grab on top of the other things.

I agree with you but why are we always adding alacrity? Maybe add some more law on your side damage dice or something. Some ranged power. Why is the go to buff for melee/ranged (physical damage) attack speed, moar attacks! Mooooar!

[BigErkyKid]

I agree with you but why are we always adding alacrity? Maybe add some more law on your side damage dice or something. Some ranged power. Why is the go to buff for melee/ranged (physical damage) attack speed, moar attacks! Mooooar!

Whatever works well, I said this because, as you mentioned, it seems their direction of development. Personally, I think it is bad since it scales without control later on, but whatever.

But how did they think that 2 freaking crossbows would not overpower anything else released before? I mean, I am not an specialist on ranged builds, and I can already see it.

Twice as many shots, alone, wouldn't it be twice the DPS of a rogue mechanic? Assuming everything else in inquis is only as valuable as the secondary investments rogue mechanic did in other things, and we know that not to be true.

Please someone educate me, how is this reasonable and not straight out insane.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I'm still curious about how the Inquisitive plays at lowest levels.
But no-one seems to be interested in that - at least I see no reports about that here.