Wolf builds getting nerfed hard

[droid327]

I'm...yeah. Its a valid nerf. 30% attack speed takes 3 feats with SWF, having it tied to just 8 levels of Druid was a bit OP considering it worked with any weapon, and synergized perfectly with Natural Fighting, and then again with Silvanus, and still left you your T5 open.

Multipliers are the great evil of balance, because they allow otherwise acceptable differences to get magnified beyond acceptability. That's what happened with wolf maul builds - it just synergized too well, for too little opportunity cost. 18-20/x3 + 12% DS and MP + 30% attack speed + THF base die is the best of all possible worlds, and you could have it by level 14 when that really should be a 20-level build with a T5.

[AbyssalMage]

I'm...yeah. Its a valid nerf. 30% attack speed takes 3 feats with SWF, having it tied to just 8 levels of Druid was a bit OP considering it worked with any weapon, and synergized perfectly with Natural Fighting, and then again with Silvanus, and still left you your T5 open.

Multipliers are the great evil of balance, because they allow otherwise acceptable differences to get magnified beyond acceptability. That's what happened with wolf maul builds - it just synergized too well, for too little opportunity cost. 18-20/x3 + 12% DS and MP + 30% attack speed + THF base die is the best of all possible worlds, and you could have it by level 14 when that really should be a 20-level build with a T5.

No it isn't. A valid nerf would have been fixing the Cleric/FvS crit multiplier that was stacking with everything.

[HungarianRhapsody]

No it isn't. A valid nerf would have been fixing the Cleric/FvS crit multiplier that was stacking with everything.

OR make you take the T5 Wolf enhancements to get the full 30%, but make the other T5 wolf enhancements less garbage-y.

[palladin9479]

OR make you take the T5 Wolf enhancements to get the full 30%, but make the other T5 wolf enhancements less garbage-y.

Wolf builds were indeed broken, anytime you see that kind of (8/6/6) split it's an obvious build exploit. Putting it behind a T5 enhancement at least forces people to scale down their builds and put more points into druid. Ranged builds are also a bit broken, especially that silly down crossbow one. All mage builds are broken too, though it's only really noticeably in mid to higher reaper. Reaper offensive bonus's need to be toned way down such that they aren't lethal to anything that gets near them.

[Emerge2012]

Wolf builds were indeed broken, anytime you see that kind of (8/6/6) split it's an obvious build exploit. Putting it behind a T5 enhancement at least forces people to scale down their builds and put more points into druid. Ranged builds are also a bit broken, especially that silly down crossbow one. All mage builds are broken too, though it's only really noticeably in mid to higher reaper. Reaper offensive bonus's need to be toned way down such that they aren't lethal to anything that gets near them.

And by "especially that silly crossbow one" you really mean "only" that silly crossbow one. Don't forget next update will mostly nuke DC casters that aren't running in Magister as mob saves vs spells are getting a considerable boost.

Tough sell to nerf a dog when Inq is already light years above everything else and PM is about to join it.

[Xgya]

All the other builds required getting to level 12 and spending 31+ AP or spending 3 feats to get that same attack speed bonus.

This is a balance patch.

While you DO see a lot of wolf builds wearing heavier armor, the core principle of wolf builds was originally to make them lightly armored strikers, hence their access to evasion, sneak attack and other light armor staples.

While I agree that the other T5 in wolf are lackluster, this change makes them relevant.

[Emerge2012]

All the other builds required getting to level 12 and spending 31+ AP or spending 3 feats to get that same attack speed bonus.

This is a balance patch.

While you DO see a lot of wolf builds wearing heavier armor, the core principle of wolf builds was originally to make them lightly armored strikers, hence their access to evasion, sneak attack and other light armor staples.

While I agree that the other T5 in wolf are lackluster, this change makes them relevant.

I'll keep that in mind as I use cure spells to heal the palemaster in the group while machine gun builds mow down mobs.

[Fedora1]

Wolf builds were indeed broken,

Maybe, I don't know, never played one. Seems like it though.

anytime you see that kind of (8/6/6) split it's an obvious build exploit.

People use the word "exploit" so loosely. Examples?

I see a lot of builds that use splits like this for low-hanging fruit on something only going to 20 and TR/RR. I'd hardly call front-loaded builds (that sacrifice higher level or longer term abilities) an exploit.

[Cantor]

I see a lot of builds that use splits like this for low-hanging fruit on something only going to 20 and TR/RR.

That's the point, this is a build that plays at cap, not a 20 tr build.

I feel the nerf is fair, tying the speed to t5 is valid. SWF speed with a twohander and natural fighting is a lot. I do agree that the tree could use some more in it though to not make it giving everything up for the speed. It's never been a good tree.

I would make it a multi-selector for unarmored-light-heavy/medium that gives different benefits.

[Fedora1]

That's the point, this is a build that plays at cap, not a 20 tr build..

And my point was not to throw all heavy build splits under the same "exploit" bus. That's all.

[TedSandyman]

Anytime a nerf happens, of course the people playing that class are going to get angry.

But I don't understand why every time a nerf happens, the consensus is that the build is suddenly not worth playing.

It will still have high DPS just not as high as it was. And maybe just as high, but later on. If I were thinking of playing a druid, this would not change my mind.

This change is making multi-classing with the druid less beneficial for sure.

If ALL you care about is having the most overpowered toon possible and you just want to hobble together some different things to do that, then yeah, this isn't going to be great for you.

I personally feel you are missing the point of playing the game if you are that concerned, but that is just my opinion.

You will simply have to split the next best thing and go from there. I don't think you care too much about druid and just care about squeezing the max DPS out of any build.

If you really like playing druid, then yeah, you are a little less powerful early on. You will have to wait a bit to get the 30%. But it is still going to be a fun class to play.

[Emerge2012]

If ALL you care about is having the most overpowered toon possible and you just want to hobble together some different things to do that, then yeah, this isn't going to be great for you.

I personally feel you are missing the point of playing the game if you are that concerned, but that is just my opinion.

Character customization and min maxing is what makes DDO what it is. If you don't agree with that then I'd say it's you who are the one that's missing the point of this particular game and would be just as happy casual playing any other MMO.

[Zretch]

Anytime a nerf happens, of course the people playing that class are going to get angry.

But I don't understand why every time a nerf happens, the consensus is that the build is suddenly not worth playing.

It will still have high DPS just not as high as it was. And maybe just as high, but later on. If I were thinking of playing a druid, this would not change my mind.

This change is making multi-classing with the druid less beneficial for sure.

If ALL you care about is having the most overpowered toon possible and you just want to hobble together some different things to do that, then yeah, this isn't going to be great for you.

I personally feel you are missing the point of playing the game if you are that concerned, but that is just my opinion.

You will simply have to split the next best thing and go from there. I don't think you care too much about druid and just care about squeezing the max DPS out of any build.

If you really like playing druid, then yeah, you are a little less powerful early on. You will have to wait a bit to get the 30%. But it is still going to be a fun class to play.

The issue is that, given our experience with Monks, the devs don't seem to target the nerfs at where the problem actually lies. For instance, why did they nerf wolf form and not just winter wolf? Was anyone at all playing wolf at cap? If they were, were they "overperforming" in the way that the winter wolf builds did?

Of course not, but the nerf hits heroic druids, including pure heroic druids, not just the ones at cap or the ones with 3 class splits. It hits heroic druids hardest early (pre-level 12), where the most recent monk nerf hit heroic monks later (removal of core weapon die based on level), but the sentiment is the same. There's a problem at cap, so we'll go ahead and nerf core mechanics that have an impact in heroic levels. BTW, if anyone things heroic dog druids are overpowered, you need to take a real hard look at sorcs.

What gets me the most is that people are saying "oh the nerf is totally justified because obviously 30% attack speed with a two hander is too much". The thing is that the 30% attack speed isn't the product of some voodu alchemy crazy build that takes advantage of unintended bugs in the system. The devs were the ones that set winter wolf's attack speed at 30% in the first place. Was this not play-tested? Did no-one think that people would be wielding a 2 hander in wolf form? Or did they think that the loss of glancing blows was enough to offset the increased attack speed? Why release this stuff into live only to have to go back and nerf it later?

This goes into the same scrap heap that saw unlimited target EiN, 10 melee power per Henshin core, and 1d6+6 duality. Obvious outliers that were released anyway because they were cool, but were nerfed later because "balance".

[AbyssalMage]

But I don't understand why every time a nerf happens, the consensus is that the build is suddenly not worth playing.

Paladin - The other abilities that they brought to the table were/are sub-par to multiple alternatives.
Barbarian - There other abilities that they brought to the table were...wait, they only bring DPS to the table and their self-healing was for them only. Even max DPS, they provided less DPS than other options who ALSO provided healing to everyone.
Bard - Power Creep caught up to their lack of "To-Hit" being non-existent in anything other than PDK. There are other issues too but I haven't followed nearly as much as I should. It is still worth playing, but barely.
Warlock - They were a great all around class. They did everything well. Actually they really reminded me of the Bard before they were nerfed through lack of attention. But first they nerfed their DPS, which already wasn't the best and made you spend valuable feats just to remain where you were (as not the best). Now they are great for Heroic lives but there are better alternatives if you are going to play in Epic's for an extended time.

It will still have high DPS just not as high as it was. And maybe just as high, but later on. If I were thinking of playing a druid, this would not change my mind.

The Wolf Druid's DPS isn't that great without the deep split with Cleric/FvS with Maul. There are better options and multiple alternatives if you are wanting to go Hybrid Melee DPS. This is where druids will be again. Yes they will still be fun. In the state of the game people will not turn you away because you are a pure druid. But lying to yourself that the change "isn't that great" is just that, a lie. And now it will actually be slightly worse. If that isn't a kick to the shin I don't know what is.

This change is making multi-classing with the druid less beneficial for sure.

Actually the opposite. You will need to multi-class to make up for the Attack Speed you are naturally losing unless they announced they are putting it back in the T5. The Wolf Tree simply doesn't add a lot. There is a reason why Bear > Wolf (pure). It is also why they did the split.

If ALL you care about is having the most overpowered toon possible and you just want to hobble together some different things to do that, then yeah, this isn't going to be great for you.

I personally feel you are missing the point of playing the game if you are that concerned, but that is just my opinion.

I think what you are missing (from my perspective) is the game is about numbers. D&D is about numbers. Most players do not like slogging through quests. For the vast majority of the game it is about DC's and DPS. They have recently been trying to add more tactical elements into the game which have been hit-and-miss but in the end you find the numbers you need to be reasonably successful. If you are playing at the top end, being reasonably successful will be dropping druid for Ranger, Rogue, Artificer, Fighter, and some of the other "deep split" builds. You'll still openly accept Druids but you are trying to finish the quest in 45 minutes, not 60. Overtime, those "15 minutes" add up. It's about efficiency which is a natural human drive.

<snip>
But it is still going to be a fun class to play.

Fun, just not efficient. My Monkcher was <explicatively> fun but it wasn't efficient compared to some of the melee I grouped with.

[Chai]

Anytime a nerf happens, of course the people playing that class are going to get angry.

But I don't understand why every time a nerf happens, the consensus is that the build is suddenly not worth playing.

It will still have high DPS just not as high as it was. And maybe just as high, but later on. If I were thinking of playing a druid, this would not change my mind.

This change is making multi-classing with the druid less beneficial for sure.

If ALL you care about is having the most overpowered toon possible and you just want to hobble together some different things to do that, then yeah, this isn't going to be great for you.

I personally feel you are missing the point of playing the game if you are that concerned, but that is just my opinion.

You will simply have to split the next best thing and go from there. I don't think you care too much about druid and just care about squeezing the max DPS out of any build.

If you really like playing druid, then yeah, you are a little less powerful early on. You will have to wait a bit to get the 30%. But it is still going to be a fun class to play.

A significant portion of the market audience is min maxers and META chasers.

I'll never understand why these folks get poo pooed and tut tutted in every MMO by other factions and casual playstyle enthusiasts, becuase these are the folks who discover the best combinations, best rotations, write the guides, keep the wiki up to date, etc. Once they are gone the community surrounding the game (not the in-game community itself) tends to dry up pretty quickly.

[droid327]

No it isn't. A valid nerf would have been fixing the Cleric/FvS crit multiplier that was stacking with everything.

That's not the broken part. That requires 6 levels of a class, a Deity choice, and is only valid for one (otherwise useless) weapon type. Its no more broken than KT for longswords and warhammers.

30% attack speed right up front was the broken part, and thats what they fixed - you can still get it, you just have to fully invest in Wolf to get full return, and partial investment gives you partial return. You cant get 100% of wolf benefits with just a splash - just like you dont get 20% attack speed in the first core of Vanguard, you scale up to it.

[Clemeit]

I just love how they're slipping it under a bunch of unrelated changes. Hoping people won't notice or something?

Love that transparency.

[Lynnabel]

Hoping people won't notice or something?

I feel like calling it out with a blurb about our reasoning in an entire thread dedicated to changes made for the preview server before the update even goes live kind of defeats that purpose. If we wanted people to not notice, I think we could have tried a little harder :P

[losian2]

To be fair.. isn't it really "thinly-spread wolf-builds that require hearts to finagle levels just right to take advantage of fruit that was hanging way too low" getting nerfed hard?

Wolf builds, i.e. druids playing mostly druid levels and using wolf form, will be unaffected as far as I can see as long as they just move a few points around.

[whoolsey]

Wow, are they realy nerfing that one wolf build? That last bastion for 2handers?
I better buy me some choclate on the way home, someone's gone be mighty ****ed.....

This will prety much be the death knell for 2hf players. The ED changes didn't impress us on lamania, fury was terrible.

I'm glad we both haven't bought sharn yet, from the looks of this, i doubt we would be seeing much of it.