Why play a melee character at all?

[Gremmlynn]

Don't you think there are going to be a huge influx of Clerics starting late this week when Domains go live? Isn't that going to be pretty good synergy with all the melee out there? Won't this serve as a defacto buff to those who play melee and address some of your concerns?

Only if they actually play as healers. Frankly, I think the domains with the buffs to other things makes that less likely. As, in my experience most players can't, or simply don't, keep an eye on party health unless that's all they are doing. With those buffs to things other than healing, they will more than likely be doing those other things.

[KingNite]

I also showed how to solve the "kiting is OP" issue by allowing the same margin of error for kiting as there is for melee. The forumites dont seem to want mob ranged DPS to be at or near melee DPS, but that wont stop them from complaining kiting is OP, cheesy, etc...

As for safe spots, DDO is in sore need of pull and push abilities. If mobility is the issue, then it simply needs a few hard counters implemented.

Reducing mobilty would probably result in a huge failure. Mobility is the ONLY reason to play ranged DPS, they have lower dps than melees, lower mitigation and lower hp. If you take away the only reason to play them you are not really helping as much melee as making ranged equally miserable. Dunno if that's what the game needs... In such environment (reduded mobility) CC would become even more important, I think CC is already important enough in high skulls... If you see the vid Wondream linked (R7 I think, it was) the DPS's, both melee and ranged were mainly piking or beating helpless mobs. All the "work" was done by the tank and the sorcerer, the rest just beat helpess dumies over and over. Dunno how much fun it is after 4 or 5 runs for the DPS. Kitting is OP is a myth in high skulls, no one can kite mobs that 1 shot you for very long, sooner or later a mistake happens. The solution it's more a matter of help melee than nerf mobility imo. The only really OP and key thing in high settings is CC right now (and charms ).

[Tat2Freak]

That's my tank and that's the whole point ?

Its a great tactic, has been for a LONG time...I and many others Im sure would like to see the SS with the kill count included...

[phillymiket]

I did answer your question. Objectively.

I don't think you did.
The person asked, why should a Warlock be so overpowered in this game?
All you did was give a single example of one room in one quest where there is more parity.
But what if you aren't in the lobby of Wiz King?

It doesn't matter if Warlocks are themselves the problem or a symptom of the META or whatever you said to dance around addressing the point.
The point is that Warlock and Range are obviously imbalanced.
It doesn't matter if the devs messed up or if it was "erosion from previous era complainers" that used mind control to make the devs mess up the game.
Blaming players from previous eras of forum arguments won't change the facts.
Saying that if this or that had not happened then we wouldn't be here won't change the facts.
The fact is we are here regardless of shoulda/coulda/woulda and Range and Arcane are preposterously out of balance with Melee.

You can bump range DPS of mobs but again that will hurt Melee more than Range and Arcane so things would just get worse.
This is because I can avoid the mob strikes on a Range or Arcane toon but not on a Melee.
I can see the mobs about to shoot and step out of the way on a Range.
I can switch from kiting clockwise to kiting counter-clockwise and cause all the mobs to shoot the wrong way.
I can focus on all the Range and make them die before the Melee mobs have a chance to get to me.
I can exploit the fact that Melee mob AI pursues quickly while Range mob AI takes forever and simply kite the Melee mobs around a corner where the Range Mobs can't hit me and when the Range finally come around the corner and set up to shoot, I can simply go back around the corner the other way and rinse and repeat.
There is a billion ways to exploit the AI so window dressing like bumping up Mob Range DPS doesn't change the facts and just makes it worse.

Address the actual problem which is that Melee defenses can't take the heat because they can't avoid getting hit while Range and Arcane can.

[Chai]

Reducing mobilty would probably result in a huge failure. Mobility is the ONLY reason to play ranged DPS, they have lower dps than melees, lower mitigation and lower hp. If you take away the only reason to play them you are not really helping as much melee as making ranged equally miserable. Dunno if that's what the game needs... In such environment (reduded mobility) CC would become even more important, I think CC is already important enough in high skulls... If you see the vid Wondream linked (R7 I think, it was) the DPS's, both melee and ranged were mainly piking or beating helpless mobs. All the "work" was done by the tank and the sorcerer, the rest just beat helpess dumies over and over. Dunno how much fun it is after 4 or 5 runs for the DPS. Kitting is OP is a myth in high skulls, no one can kite mobs that 1 shot you for very long, sooner or later a mistake happens. The solution it's more a matter of help melee than nerf mobility imo. The only really OP and key thing in high settings is CC right now (and charms ).

I wouldnt reduce mobility as a blanket statement 100% of the time.

I would give mobs (and players) the ability to hard counter the mobility advantage on a cooldown.

Kiting with impunity is OP. Kiting knowing the mob can hard counter at some point means you have to make good decisions on your ranged character, just like you have to on your melee character.

If mobility is the ONLY reason to play ranged DPS as claimed, then the entire ranged archetype was designed incorrectly. When every single ranged character plays ranged for the exact same one reason, that reason being OP is correctly stated as such.

[Tat2Freak]

...could take a step back towards the roots and eliminate all actions while moving...even the mobs.

p.s. then maybe spring attack and shot on the run would be viable...but I would still think they need to be heavily penalized too...

p.s.s. make quicken...QUICK not autocast...concentration viable...

p.s.s.s. etc, etc

p.s.s.s.s. stop GIVING away UMD...

p.s.s.s.s.s make all trap r10 worthy, unless you have a good rogue...

[Tyrande]

[...]
There is a billion ways to exploit the AI so window dressing like bumping up Mob Range DPS doesn't change the facts and just makes it worse.

Address the actual problem which is that Melee defenses can't take the heat because they can't avoid getting hit while Range and Arcane can.

Perhaps the coin has two sides?

Ask yourselves this question: Why play a non-melee character at all because melees can take all the heat and can kill faster (moar DPS, no downtime, no shrining)

i.e. Why do melees need hjealing and Crowd Control if all the damage can be mitigated by having more PRR/MRR in higher skulls?
You know why devs took the old Vorpal (no HP limit) and the old Nightmares on weapons away? Because melees were destroying dungeons with them.

[Tat2Freak]

You know why devs took the old Vorpal (no HP limit) and the old Nightmares on weapons away? Because melees were destroying dungeons with them.

Dont forget my babies...I miss you W/P rapiers...

...stuff used to MELT...and when Paras was auto crit...LOL< WHAT!!!!

[Tat2Freak]

The lesson to learn here is that sell power creep is bad.

I almost thought you had a spelling error...but you didnt. Its like that joke welcome to my ool, notice there is no P in it, lets keep it that way.

[Chai]

I don't think you did.
The person asked, why should a Warlock be so overpowered in this game?
All you did was give a single example of one room in one quest where there is more parity.
But what if you aren't in the lobby of Wiz King?

It doesn't matter if Warlocks are themselves the problem or a symptom of the META or whatever you said to dance around addressing the point.
The point is that Warlock and Range are obviously imbalanced.
It doesn't matter if the devs messed up or if it was "erosion from previous era complainers" that used mind control to make the devs mess up the game.
Blaming players from previous eras of forum arguments won't change the facts.
Saying that if this or that had not happened then we wouldn't be here won't change the facts.
The fact is we are here regardless of shoulda/coulda/woulda and Range and Arcane are preposterously out of balance with Melee.

You can bump range DPS of mobs but again that will hurt Melee more than Range and Arcane so things would just get worse.
This is because I can avoid the mob strikes on a Range or Arcane toon but not on a Melee.
I can see the mobs about to shoot and step out of the way on a Range.
I can switch from kiting clockwise to kiting counter-clockwise and cause all the mobs to shoot the wrong way.
I can focus on all the Range and make them die before the Melee mobs have a chance to get to me.
I can exploit the fact that Melee mob AI pursues quickly while Range mob AI takes forever and simply kite the Melee mobs around a corner where the Range Mobs can't hit me and when the Range finally come around the corner and set up to shoot, I can simply go back around the corner the other way and rinse and repeat.
There is a billion ways to exploit the AI so window dressing like bumping up Mob Range DPS doesn't change the facts and just makes it worse.

Address the actual problem which is that Melee defenses can't take the heat because they can't avoid getting hit while Range and Arcane can.

As I said earlier, the language those on the forums who are afraid of losing their OP ranged mobility advantage couch their responses in often contradicts itself. Observe...

You claim the following:
upping mob ranged DPS doesnt solve the issue
But then claim...
Melee defenses cant handle the incoming damage is the issue.

Yes, neither can ranged defenses (the stats in game, not running in circles) thats why you lower the margin of error ranged PCs have by upping the mob ranged DPS.

The minute you walk around that corner is where my hard counter kicks in, and the mob uses its pull ability to put you right back in its sights. It can do this on a cooldown so this wont be OP for any one mob to have, but if you kited a few melee away from like 4 archers and think youre safe, you can expect to be pulled 4 times every cooldown rotation.

This solves the issue, because like melee having to make good play decisions to survive, so too would ranged have to do the same. No longer would the META in DDO be to build a ranged or caster character, then look like an episode of Benny Hill running in circles hopped up on goofballs.

[Tat2Freak]

No longer SHOULD the META in DDO be to build a ranged or caster character, then look like an episode of Benny Hill running in circles hopped up on goofballs.

Sorry, had to fix that for you.

[Chai]

Sorry, had to fix that for you.

No need. I typed it correctly the first time. If mobs have a pull on a cooldown and ranged DPS for mobs was closer to melee DPS, that WOULD NOT (not "should not but WOULD NOT) be the META.

Case in point, it was forumites in previous eras who complained up a storm about mob ranged DPS when it was higher, which resulted in mob ranged DPS being lowered. Current META is in part a direct result of that.

[Tat2Freak]

No need. I typed it correctly the first time. If mobs have a pull on a cooldown and ranged DPS for mobs was closer to melee DPS, that WOULD NOT (not "should not but WOULD NOT) be the META.

Case in point, it was forumites in previous eras who complained up a storm about mob ranged DPS when it was higher, which resulted in mob ranged DPS being lowered. Current META is in part a direct result of that.

I think you just want to argue at this point...I agree with you, lol.

Do your thing.

[DaviMOC]

I dont know why there is still discussion about ranged and locks in general being unbalanced. The obvious answer is yes.

An example of that is:Just put a repeater on a melee built toon.

All you will need different is proficiency on it and you are done. It may not have the huge single hit damage you can achieve on a melee build with a melee weapon but its just safe and it compensates its damage with a high sustained DPS, low death counts, low healing demand , less moving , less self healing, no risk on accidental pulls and enough time for the tank to take aggro back before mob touches you.

It's happening to me while I play my melee artificer, all focused on its spinal tap and later was wave of despair. It hits like a truck when i manage to survive enough on melee, but its just not worth the risk while i can still pull dragon's aggro from the tank at r3 B and B using a randon gen keen light repeater ML:3. I convinced a guildie to swap a feat at fredie to test it as a fighter and he had same results.

On lock side While we talk alot about its CCs and damage output, you guys just underestimate that AoE regeneration of 30-150 false hitpoints every 2 secs free of cost, casting, management or healing penalties . Sometimes for a given quest on elite or low reapers All i need is a lock nearby, dont need him to do anything else but to stay close. Ranged and locks in special trades so litte(or dont trade at all = aura locks) to have enough survivability, and every trade available to a melee focused is avaliable for any ranged toon too. While on melee side there is no trades, having better defenses are mandatory and usually costy and demanding.

There is litte to nothing to discuss on it, it's just obvious for someone that's just not in love with ranged or lock playstyiles thats to play melee you need to overdo defenses to achieve same results. While is doable, is not practical and so much more punishing to play melee with no real reward beyond personal taste.

[Tat2Freak]

Sorry but this is not Star Wars (i.e. Clone Wars) this is a graphic representation of Dungeons and Dragons and diversity has been the CORNERSTONE of this game from the begenning, you suggest now it needs to be like everyone else? Then why play it, PLENTY of other games to choose from...

.

[Cantor]

lol roll a melee and use a repeater.

And people say that i am the troll here.

Sorry but this is not Star Wars (i.e. Clone Wars) this is a graphic representation of Dungeons and Dragons and diversity has been the CORNERSTONE of this game from the begenning, you suggest now it needs to be like everyone else? Then why play it, PLENTY of other games to choose from...

Did you guys just miss his entire point? The point is that ranged is so imbalanced that even with all melee feats you'd be better off picking up a repeater. He's not suggesting you do it to play, just pointing out that doing so is better than meleeing.

[Tat2Freak]

Did you guys just miss his entire point? The point is that ranged is so imbalanced that even with all melee feats you'd be better off picking up a repeater. He's not suggesting you do it to play, just pointing out that doing so is better than meleeing.

LOL, yeah looks that way...says its off in the first line...guess I forgot with all the other stuff he added...

[phillymiket]

Perhaps the coin has two sides?
Ask yourselves this question: Why play a non-melee character at all because melees can take all the heat and can kill faster (moar DPS, no downtime, no shrining)
i.e. Why do melees need hjealing and Crowd Control if all the damage can be mitigated by having more PRR/MRR in higher skulls?
You know why devs took the old Vorpal (no HP limit) and the old Nightmares on weapons away? Because melees were destroying dungeons with them.

The coin most definately has two sides and in between the two extremes is balance; that's why it's called "balance"
We have seen the "Friends don't let friends Range combat" era, and we have seen the "Age of the Monkchar".
We have seen Arcane be useful for only Buffs and Colorful Displays of Fail when Melee were the Bee's Knees.
Sure, during all of those ages there were people here arguing that obvious wasn't obvious, there is a perpetual balance argument here, but now with the perspective of time we can clearly see that those were times of imbalance.
Obvious is still obvious.
We are in a time of imbalance.

As I said earlier, the language those on the forums who are afraid of losing their OP ranged mobility advantage couch their responses in often contradicts itself. Observe...
You claim the following:
upping mob ranged DPS doesnt solve the issue
But then claim...
Melee defenses cant handle the incoming damage is the issue.

Contradictions happen. Sometimes one set of problems need a contradictory solution to another set of problems. I honestly don't see the contradiction in what you listed there but that's besides the point.
What I was saying is... Range can still better avoid enemy range fire than Melee so upping enemy range DPS furthers the problem, not solves.

Yes, neither can ranged defenses (the stats in game, not running in circles) thats why you lower the margin of error ranged PCs have by upping the mob ranged DPS.

The problem is the AI. The AI stinks at tracking players movement. A Range toon can stay at a distance and cause the mobs to group up or run in circles because the AI is giving them all the same instructions. A range toon can easily break LOS with enemy range or simply always keep moving knowing that the mobs will shoot at where you were and not where you will be by the time the arrow gets there.
Whereas DPS must stay within melee range of the mobs to strike allowing enemy archers a chance to hit far more easily. i.e. Melee have to go after the mobs, while the mobs have to go after the Range.
That's why Range usually has had DPS disadvantages in DDO because whenever there is parity in DPS players invariably choose to Range because duh.
Now it's not just parity but imbalance toward Range so if course that's what people would choose but it doesn't make the game better.

The minute you walk around that corner is where my hard counter kicks in, and the mob uses its pull ability to put you right back in its sights. It can do this on a cooldown so this wont be OP for any one mob to have, but if you kited a few melee away from like 4 archers and think youre safe, you can expect to be pulled 4 times every cooldown rotation.
This solves the issue, because like melee having to make good play decisions to survive, so too would ranged have to do the same. No longer would the META in DDO be to build a ranged or caster character, then look like an episode of Benny Hill running in circles hopped up on goofballs.

I didn't see that so forgive my not addressing it.
You mean a "Get over here!" move like Scorpion in Mortal Combat?
Why not just address the imbalance?
Don't make me use a folksy analogy about how to drive a nail into a 2x4.

I'm not going to shoot the idea down, because that could be a fun mechanic - for a single mob type - but as a solution, I don't favor.
So now DDO is every single encounter having 1) Champions 2) Reapers 3) "Get over here!" ?
At every single encounter?
This just get's worse and worse.
Is that D&D?

If this game wants to fall back into favor and become a "cult classic" with a loyal fan base supporting an aging game (which is the only niche DDO can possibly fill) then they need to straight up rebalance the game.
That's it.
Period.
Maybe.
IMO.

[DaviMOC]

Did you guys just miss his entire point? The point is that ranged is so imbalanced that even with all melee feats you'd be better off picking up a repeater. He's not suggesting you do it to play, just pointing out that doing so is better than meleeing.

LOL

Yeah, this! Thanks cantor.

[Pyed-Pyper]

How is melee viable in the age of one-shots?