Why play a melee character at all?

[PermaBanned]

Reaper was a result of the same people on their uber toons making short work of elite, then turning around and calling the game boring because it was too easy. So yeah in a way reaper is the result of the player base demanding, and they got what they wanted, now their uber toons aren't smashing content. Now they have to rework their insanely dps focused toons into something a little more balanced and they are crying foul because they can't just wade into a group of mobs and cleave their way through in seconds, because they got what they wanted which is challenge.

Looks like you're working from an interesting collection of "alternative facts" there. Available character power was escalated beyond what content's highest difficulty setting could cope with.

It was asked that there be an environment where the amount of character power they made achievable had a purpose. • They delivered a setting that blanket reduced some character's power, while providing additional power increases to other characters (both immediately by proxy and eventually by rewards) in said environment - and some of the power increases worked outside of said environment. • They didn't give what was wanted.

It was asked that such an environment be there for those who wanted an increased level of challenge. • They delivered an environment heavily incentivized/rewarded enough that players with no interest in seeking additional challenge were driven into it. • They didn't give what was wanted.

It was asked there be an environment that incentivized/rewarded a group of characters to play as a team vs a group of characters soloing the same instance together. • They delivered grouping rules/mechanics that were incongruous with existing ones (Bravery Bonus vs Reaper, Epic level lockouts) and hindered group formation. • They didn't give what was wanted.

To the best of my recollection, literally nobody asked for a new harder-than-Elite environment that would provide a more time efficient leveling arena (I welcome links/quotes to the contrary) - but that's what they delivered. • They did not give what was wanted.

Saying Reaper is the Devs giving players what they wanted is at best revisionist history.

[phillymiket]

Saying Reaper is the Devs giving players what they wanted is at best revisionist history.

- Hey didn't we all order the steak? They gave us fish!
- Oh, so you want to go back to just having a basket of bread?
- No I never said that. I was just pointing out that I don't like the fish and that's not what I asked for.
- That IS a steak.
- No it's not.
- It's a steak of fish. It is technically accurate to describe it that way. Google it.
- Fine. But it's clearly not what I asked for!
- You always have to complain!
- Because they always mess up the order!
- They'll just burn the food if they re-do it like they always do.
- That's not the point!

[Marshal_Lannes]

- Hey didn't we all order the steak? They gave us fish!
- Oh, so you want to go back to just having a basket of bread?
- No I never said that. I was just pointing out that I don't like the fish and that's not what I asked for.
- That IS a steak.
- No it's not.
- It's a steak of fish. It is technically accurate to describe it that way. Google it.
- Fine. But it's clearly not what I asked for!
- You always have to complain!
- Because they always mess up the order!
- They'll just burn the food if they re-do it like they always do.
- That's not the point!

They gave you swordfish steak. Which, although you ordered a ribeye, if you try the swordfish you'll come to understand that it is an excellent steak and maybe sometimes it's not so bad when you don't get what you want. Remember, as a smart man once said, you can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need.

[KoboldKiller]

I have been gone for almost 2 years and I swear this topic is always here.

[Pyed-Pyper]

- Hey didn't we all order the steak? They gave us fish!
- Oh, so you want to go back to just having a basket of bread?
- No I never said that. I was just pointing out that I don't like the fish and that's not what I asked for.
- That IS a steak.
- No it's not.
- It's a steak of fish. It is technically accurate to describe it that way. Google it.
- Fine. But it's clearly not what I asked for!
- You always have to complain!
- Because they always mess up the order!
- They'll just burn the food if they re-do it like they always do.
- That's not the point!

You can't always get what you want or need, even if you stuck with the check. But don't worry, there will always be someone to remind you that you should be grateful for that turd sandwich. And by the way, turd sandwiches are really awesome. So sit down and shut up, amirite?

[PermaBanned]

They gave you swordfish steak. Which, although you ordered a ribeye, if you try the swordfish you'll come to understand that it is an excellent steak and maybe sometimes it's not so bad when you don't get what you want. Remember, as a smart man once said, you can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need.

When I order ribeye and am brought not-a-ribeye, I'm going to:

1) Not pay for it.
2) Go where I can get a ribeye.

I doubt I'm alone in that.

[Marshal_Lannes]

When I order ribeye and am brought not-a-ribeye, I'm going to:

1) Not pay for it.
2) Go where I can get a ribeye.

I doubt I'm alone in that.

You are of course free to do that. I'm gonna enjoy the swordfish steak. Right now it tastes really good.

[PermaBanned]

You are of course free to do that. I'm gonna enjoy the swordfish steak. Right now it tastes really good.

Glad you're enjoying it If you were a typical customer, less businesses would fail

[SeveredSteel]

Glad you're enjoying it If you were a typical customer, less businesses would fail

No way! Everyone loves going out to the steakhouse, ordering steaks then having the waiter screw up everyone's order and bringing out the fish instead. those places are packed! #Renaissance

[LavidDynch]

You are of course free to do that. I'm gonna enjoy the swordfish steak. Right now it tastes really good.

There might be a swordfish steak on the plate for some casters, I don't disagree. But at this table, the melee table, there is only a turd sandwich.

At the bottom (R1-3) ain't that bad, still some molded white bread under all that goo, of course it's zero nutritions that may lead to diabetes and heartfailure.

The more you peel through, around and up the layers of this turd sandwich, toned in almost perfect prefix; 50 shades of brown, the less hungry you get.

Check please!

[Marshal_Lannes]

At the bottom (R1-3) ain't that bad, still some molded white bread under all that goo, of course it's zero nutritions that may lead to diabetes and heartfailure.

You know I've heard this tossed around the thread quite a bit. Now I understand this thread is all over the board about what exactly meta is supposed to be. I have consistently said the meta is not R7-10. With that in mind let's look at your statement. Are you honestly saying melee have no fun in R1-3? They get zero nutrition out of the game at that level? That isn't my experience nor what I have seen from others at all. Melee do just fine in R1-3. I just went from 17-20 on a melee Paladin/Cleric mix. Vale, Lords of Dust, IQ. Started on R2 moved up to R5 by the end of IQ. I actually find the utility of melee goes UP in mid range Reaper (4-5). Our party was a Warlock, two Wizards (both DC Necros), a Ranger (ranged), me and a hireling. In R2 the Warlock would far outdistance every one in kills. In R3 the Wizards would outdistance everyone. In R4 and 5 the kills suddenly became very even. R5 was probably the best grouping experience if you wanted a challenge but you could feel the weight of Reaper on it. R3 or 4 was an ideal zone of difficulty and XP. R1/2 was too easy.

Now there are many players on these forums with a lot more past lives than me so if these are my actual game experiences I am not sure why I keep hearing how melee are so useless in quests. I would urge people to try it for themselves.

[nokowi]

You know I've heard this tossed around the thread quite a bit. Now I understand this thread is all over the board about what exactly meta is supposed to be. I have consistently said the meta is not R7-10. With that in mind let's look at your statement. Are you honestly saying melee have no fun in R1-3? They get zero nutrition out of the game at that level? That isn't my experience nor what I have seen from others at all. Melee do just fine in R1-3. I just went from 17-20 on a melee Paladin/Cleric mix. Vale, Lords of Dust, IQ. Started on R2 moved up to R5 by the end of IQ. I actually find the utility of melee goes UP in mid range Reaper (4-5). Our party was a Warlock, two Wizards (both DC Necros), a Ranger (ranged), me and a hireling. In R2 the Warlock would far outdistance every one in kills. In R3 the Wizards would outdistance everyone. In R4 and 5 the kills suddenly became very even. R5 was probably the best grouping experience if you wanted a challenge but you could feel the weight of Reaper on it. R3 or 4 was an ideal zone of difficulty and XP. R1/2 was too easy.

Now there are many players on these forums with a lot more past lives than me so if these are my actual game experiences I am not sure why I keep hearing how melee are so useless in quests. I would urge people to try it for themselves.

That's a tankier build that would have to be built poorly to have trouble on low reaper.

Making your conclusions off just your build is part of the problem.

If you listen to the thread, we also have people that want to solo that say they can even solo R1, but that it is not fun, and that elite is either too easy or not rewarding enough.

Did you try soloing on a rogue (obviously only melee applies here), or do you simply think your group experience on a tank represents what everyone in this thread will experience?

Your group experiences can be nothing like what happens when you want to solo. If you have other people running you through content, your build largely doesn't matter.

If I made the worst build possible, I could join a group, contribute nothing, and do just fine by letting others do everything in low reaper.

The fact that your group got through content means little about your build. It could even mean melee are entirely unnecessary.

How exactly did your pally catch up to two necro (DC based) casters in R5, while lagging in R1? That doesn't pass the smell test for me.

Did you mean ranged, warlock and DC are balanced at R5 without any mention of melee, or were the casters/ranged running ahead and killing everything in R1-R3 making the quality of your build pointless in R1-R3?

[phillymiket]

They gave you swordfish steak. Which, although you ordered a ribeye, if you try the swordfish you'll come to understand that it is an excellent steak and maybe sometimes it's not so bad when you don't get what you want. Remember, as a smart man once said, you can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need.

This guy.
He's SO entrenched that even in a stupid BS analogy this guy sides with the made-up restaurant that sent the wrong food.

[r1proelite]

How exactly did your pally catch up to two necro (DC based) casters in R5, while lagging in R1?

In the same alternate reality where market has 5 instances and every reaper group has a dedicated healer.

[PermaBanned]

You know I've heard this tossed around the thread quite a bit. Now I understand this thread is all over the board about what exactly meta is supposed to be. I have consistently said the meta is not R7-10. With that in mind let's look at your statement. Are you honestly saying melee have no fun in R1-3? They get zero nutrition out of the game at that level? That isn't my experience nor what I have seen from others at all. Melee do just fine in R1-3. I just went from 17-20 on a melee Paladin/Cleric mix. Vale, Lords of Dust, IQ. Started on R2 moved up to R5 by the end of IQ. I actually find the utility of melee goes UP in mid range Reaper (4-5). Our party was a Warlock, two Wizards (both DC Necros), a Ranger (ranged), me and a hireling. In R2 the Warlock would far outdistance every one in kills. In R3 the Wizards would outdistance everyone. In R4 and 5 the kills suddenly became very even. R5 was probably the best grouping experience if you wanted a challenge but you could feel the weight of Reaper on it. R3 or 4 was an ideal zone of difficulty and XP. R1/2 was too easy.

Now there are many players on these forums with a lot more past lives than me so if these are my actual game experiences I am not sure why I keep hearing how melee are so useless in quests. I would urge people to try it for themselves.

Some of the Melee players in this thread you're referring to play solo. Take the same character, and repeat the quests/difficulties you described in their shoes - that is, play them solo on that melee character at those same Skull settings. Perhaps you'll gain some perspective on the matter.

This guy.
He's SO entrenched that even in a stupid BS analogy this guy sides with the made-up restaurant that sent the wrong food.

But then of course there is that ^^

[Chai]

You know I've heard this tossed around the thread quite a bit. Now I understand this thread is all over the board about what exactly meta is supposed to be. I have consistently said the meta is not R7-10. With that in mind let's look at your statement. Are you honestly saying melee have no fun in R1-3? They get zero nutrition out of the game at that level? That isn't my experience nor what I have seen from others at all. Melee do just fine in R1-3. I just went from 17-20 on a melee Paladin/Cleric mix. Vale, Lords of Dust, IQ. Started on R2 moved up to R5 by the end of IQ. I actually find the utility of melee goes UP in mid range Reaper (4-5). Our party was a Warlock, two Wizards (both DC Necros), a Ranger (ranged), me and a hireling. In R2 the Warlock would far outdistance every one in kills. In R3 the Wizards would outdistance everyone. In R4 and 5 the kills suddenly became very even. R5 was probably the best grouping experience if you wanted a challenge but you could feel the weight of Reaper on it. R3 or 4 was an ideal zone of difficulty and XP. R1/2 was too easy.

Now there are many players on these forums with a lot more past lives than me so if these are my actual game experiences I am not sure why I keep hearing how melee are so useless in quests. I would urge people to try it for themselves.

Many of the Melee players in this thread you're referring to play solo. Take the same character, and repeat the quests/difficulties you described in their shoes - that is, play them solo on that melee character at those same Skull settings. Perhaps you'll gain some perspective on the matter.

This is why making it more difficult for ranged is better than making it easier for melee, in reaper. People are trying to SOLO the difficulty designed for GROUPING. When they cant solo it on a melee, they get upset because they can solo the same setting on a caster or ranged character. SSGs response **should be** "we did not design this to be soloed" and then implement mobs having a pull on a cooldown, and other mechanisms that make it more difficult for META builds (ranged and casters) to solo the setting designed for grouping.

[phillymiket]

This is why making it more difficult for ranged is better than making it easier for melee, in reaper. People are trying to SOLO the difficulty designed for GROUPING. When they cant solo it on a melee, they get upset because they can solo the same setting on a caster or ranged character. SSGs response **should be** "we did not design this to be soloed" and then implement mobs having a pull on a cooldown, and other mechanisms that make it more difficult for META builds (ranged and casters) to solo the setting designed for grouping.

It was a dumb way to design it.
Look at all the threads of people here.
Not just the direct rebukes but the implied ones too.
How many responses like:
"Thelanis is a low population server so not having anyone join your LFM is the norm"
"People are mostly in static groups now"
"Great build for Elite, but in Reaper it wouldn't really work"
"Pale Masters depend in a self-healing Aura and Bursts and that doesn't work in Reaper"

SO MANY styles of play tossed out the window. SO MANY people who fall between the cracks. SO MANY frustrations.
All because the game did something that only satisfies a few without regard for the rest.
The fact that the devs intended to break the game in this manner doesn't make them immune from the criticisms for the broken game.
Fine, they designed it that way except they designed it to be self-defeating.

Reading the response you give begs the question, why not just buff melee if they are behind?
IMO the answer is, because making the game more melee friendly would also make it more solo friendly and we can't have that!
We must instead look for non-direct solutions because direct solutions opens the door to people who don't know what MMO stand for!
So we can't rebalance the game towards its original form because it was originally designed to be flexible and allow all sorts of playstyles and that's not the mission anymore. Now the mission is to play how they tell you you're supposed to play.

Bottom line: if the Devs restructured things to be more melee friendly and therefore more solo friendly, all of the opposers will STILL play.
None of the people running r8 in a power party are quitting because all of a sudden people are soloing R frickin 2 on a fighter, despite what they may say.
People however WILL quit the game if they feel they can't play anymore. They already are quitting!
This is because the people saying they can't play are arguing for what is affecting THEM personally.
While the people arguing against are arguing about what OTHER PEOPLE should and should not be doing.

Agree or disagree with whatever, IMO one path seems to be leading to #DOOM while the other path staves off the #DOOM by keeping players.

(Queue the people responding with "why not just give away everything! That will keep people too!" as if there is no reasonable middle ground.)

Nobody wants to solo,

Not true. Plenty of people are complaining about the lack of LFMs and difficulty in finding groups like in the past.
As it is IMO the melee thing and the solo thing are pretty linked.
What cures the Melee thing or the PM thing also helps the solo thing.
So they go hand in hand in many ways.
Same with Stealth.
You can't have Stealth without having soloing so if you kill or help one, you also kill or help the other.

[Chai]

I totally totally totally agree with you , r1.
NO ONE should be able to solo r10.

But... on the other hand... what about the guy on the non-default server who plays during non-USA prime time?
There has to be something for that guy to do or that guy will quit.
What about that guy? If not solo then what?
Elite?
That's an insulting joke that's not even offered as a real suggestion but rather offered as salt in the wounds.

The low end of Reaper must be made to be soloable because of the REALITY of low populations.
Soloist - either occasional, part-time, or full-time - fully understand they can't do what a party can do.
They get that they have to choose a lower setting, or skip parts, or pick-and-choose quests, and not participate in Raids w/o a party.
They get that there is a trade off.

This is an indication that people are concerned with the rewards from reaper, not necessarily the ability to solo in DDO.

If this was not the case, people would solo elite/hard/normal.

So this is not a matter of possibly seeing the same issues we saw with elite. We are already seeing the same issue we saw with elite. People will refuse to play anything less due to interpreting less reward as a "penalty" for having to play a lower setting.

[phillymiket]

If this was not the case, people would solo elite/hard/normal.

If Elite was made to be not a joke, than this would be a solution.
As it is, it in not a solution.

Would you be happy with Elite?
Of course not! So why are you suggesting things to others that would be unacceptable to you?

This had been offered time and time again with the exact same response; Elite is a joke!
You know it, I know it, the Devs know it, everyone knows it!

People are not taking your "suggestion" not because they are stubborn, but because it's a bad suggestion.
Maybe stop making the bad suggestion that has been made a billion times that you know not a solution for those people.

The bottom line, Chai, (IMO) you do not respect the other side of the debate because you don't think they play "real D&D" and therefore you don't want them to have a solution but rather you want them to just go away.
Isn't that true?
That is your right, but what about the fact that if they actually do go away then there is a good chance the whole game crumbles.
What about that?
Isn't it better to have people play the game in a manner that you don't respect while you play in the manner you do respect, rather than have all of us not be able to play at all?

[Chai]

If Elite was made to be not a joke, than this would be a solution.
As it is, it in not a solution.

Would you be happy with Elite?
Of course not! So why are you suggesting things to others that would be unacceptable to you?

This had been offered time and time again with the exact same response; Elite is a joke!
You know it, I know it, the Devs know it, everyone knows it!

People are not taking your "suggestion" not because they are stubborn, but because it's a bad suggestion.
Maybe stop making the bad suggestion that has been made a billion times that you know not a solution for those people.

The bottom line, Chai, (IMO) you do not respect the other side of the debate because you don't think they play "real D&D" and therefore you don't want them to have a solution but rather you want them to just go away.
Isn't that true?
That is your right, but what about the fact that if they actually do go away then there is a good chance the whole game crumbles.
What about that?
Isn't it better to have people play the game in a manner that you don't respect while you play in the manner you do respect, rather than have all of us not be able to play at all?

To the contrary - I find it acceptable, and good game design to reward higher tiers of difficulty with higher tiers of rewards. Many of the positions on these forums based on how easy or hard it should be to play on a specific setting, regardless of the terms they are couched in, are actually regarding rewards, or reward units per time unit (XP/min for example) - as well as the ease of obtaining said rewards. I dont see how anyone could possibly make the claim that elite would be unacceptable, when we all know if they offered the same rewards in all settings, people would flock to the easiest-to-complete setting and plow it repeatedly - AKA perfectly acceptable.

The only reason I dont respect the other side of the debate, is because there is no other side of the debate. What there is, is people who will refuse to acknowledge the desired outcome never occurring over more than a decade of time due to what they demand, and still insist that what they demand will somehow result in the desired outcome.

Insanity - taking the same action repeatedly and expecting a different result.