Why play a melee character at all?

[DaviMOC]

My bad, i stopped to read at this: Just put a repeater on a melee built toon.

That's what happens when we have a such hostile environment here in these forums.

Sorry again.

No worries. Just edited a few things for better understanding on original post =)

[Yamani]

How is melee viable in the age of one-shots?

melee as in tank, or melee as in dps? :P Both of which are viable if you put in the time to figure it out. :P

[zehnvhex]

This solves the issue, because like melee having to make good play decisions to survive, so too would ranged have to do the same. No longer would the META in DDO be to build a ranged or caster character, then look like an episode of Benny Hill running in circles hopped up on goofballs.

I too would love mobs to have a knock around they don't need LoS to use.

I'm envisioning someone running Tomb of the Burning Heart, agro chaining some of the skeleton archers. They're melee without enough jump to get up there so the NPC's just keep chain tugging them against a wall keeping them forever pinned and unable to move. Whoops.

Or better yet you go into ToEE, agro half the dungeon through a wall because it's so well designed and suddenly you're just infinitely pulled in circles and can't even /death to get out, have to just alt-F4 and start over. Whoops.

EQ tried to address the 'ranged vs. melee' problem by giving every mob over level 52 a summon so you couldn't kite mobs anymore. It was a mechanic nobody liked and was regarded as one of the dumbest things ever put into the game. It pretty much destroyed all creativity and every level 52+ encounter was thereafter handled the exact same way. All diversity was -gone-. Ranged players hated it. Melee players hated it. Even the devs hated it so a few expansions later they'd make sure only select mobs had the ability to do it because it was such an un-fun mechanic.

So yeah. Your idea doesn't make playing a melee better, just makes playing a ranged worse and if that's your idea of how to implement balance...

[Tyrande]

[...]

The problem is the AI. The AI stinks at tracking players movement. A Range toon can stay at a distance and cause the mobs to group up or run in circles because the AI is giving them all the same instructions. A range toon can easily break LOS with enemy range or simply always keep moving knowing that the mobs will shoot at where you were and not where you will be by the time the arrow gets there.
Whereas DPS must stay within melee range of the mobs to strike allowing enemy archers a chance to hit far more easily. i.e. Melee have to go after the mobs, while the mobs have to go after the Range.
That's why Range usually has had DPS disadvantages in DDO because whenever there is parity in DPS players invariably choose to Range because duh.
Now it's not just parity but imbalance toward Range so if course that's what people would choose but it doesn't make the game better.

[...]

Sure, let's have turn based combat so that the server doesn't lag in calculating where every range character is and where they will be, and how to place a return range attack so that they hit the range character who is moving. You probably know the answer to this one. Reducing lag is more important than calculating where range people are.

Devs put in incentives for ranged to stay focused...by standing still.

Actually, the range damage is very bad when the range character is moving. The only saving grace is probably the monk throwers with improved precise shot, shurikens have such a high rate of fire, the lower damage does not matter as there were all kinds of proc's going on, doing Memoirs of the Illusionary Larcener on R10 with 5 such throwers and a backup caster for mass holds with ease. You are not complaining them about doing this quest with almost all range monsters, are you?!

[phillymiket]

Sure, let's have turn based combat so that the server doesn't lag in calculating where every range character is and where they will be, and how to place a return range attack so that they hit the range character who is moving. You probably know the answer to this one. Reducing lag is more important than calculating where range people are.

Devs put in incentives for ranged to stay focused...by standing still.

Actually, the range damage is very bad when the range character is moving. The only saving grace is probably the monk throwers with improved precise shot, shurikens have such a high rate of fire, the lower damage does not matter as there were all kinds of proc's going on, doing Memoirs of the Illusionary Larcener on R10 with 5 such throwers and a backup caster for mass holds with ease. You are not complaining them about doing this quest with almost all range monsters, are you?!

I didn't suggest and don't want turn based combat and I never once mentioned shuriken parties in Memoirs.
I was pointing out how the AI works and showing how upping mob range damage will impact Melee more than Range and therefore is not a solution. That's all. All that other stuff is you assigning me a point of view that I don't have.

Despite incentives, intentions and arguments the obvious remains obvious.

[Wonedream]

Sorry but this is not Star Wars (i.e. Clone Wars) this is a graphic representation of Dungeons and Dragons and diversity has been the CORNERSTONE of this game from the begenning, you suggest now it needs to be like everyone else? Then why play it, PLENTY of other games to choose from...

Bump, repeat, bump, aparrently we have to get out loud speakers and tell everyone, since a lot of people do not understand what D&D was about, and seem to think it was about forcing grouping, PvE, or something like that. It was about diversity, which extended to what you could do in the game. The game was flexible, and could change very fast. You could play it how YOU wanted to, and I ran a PvP campaign that had loads of people coming to my home, almost 2 dozen involved. No one ever got upset, no hard feelings.

Because it allowed the imagination to be diverse and explore a huge field of idea and thought, you could make a time vortex open up, where your characters stepped through and are in any reality you can imagine. That was one of the most beautiful parts. And thus, you could end up in Star Wars, you could gank Darth Vader and steal his Light Saber. I had a campaign once where the players got a powerful device that allowed them to do something like that, I couldn't control where they went, they decided to go to Marvel Comics and meet the X-men. They did, and were happy about it, but also greedy and decided to test the X-men out in combat. When they won, they decided to steal as much as possible... one of the toons stole Wolverine's claws, not because they wanted them, but because they wanted to see if they could.

The kids in the campaign had absurd amounts of fun. They would bribe me to try and get me to keep DMing. They liked that I'd applied house rules to an extreme to allow them to time travel and check out different realities. The material plane is made of infinite parallels. So you will likely find a reality with a graphic representation of Star Wars there. Or X-men. It was really easy to do, and no one could stop us from having fun, which made it more fun. We would joke about how some people can never go this far, and how they would never play D&D with a DM that was uptight, rigid, too by the book, and an imagination that was 3% if that of my own.

Now I see SSG has applied their own house rules on DDO, with reapers. D&D was never about running campaigns in quests and all modules included reapers. They didn't even exist, not in any core books. Totally made up, and the quest itself trying to kill you? Though that isn't new, the entire heal nerf reaper amp, monster is way tougher is not anywhere in the books.

I don't care, it is great. I love diversity in choices.

And if they want to balance Reaper so melee and stealth have a mode that works in their favor, make a melee mode, have its tree stack with reapers, so anyone into reaper will want to do it for the bonuses it gives to help them in reaper, and anyone doing melee mode will want to do reaper for the bonuses it gives in melee mode.

This gets all classes doing something where they are at the advantage or disadvantage. They go through both ordeals.

Melee Mode: Cooldowns on ALL effects are slowed down (you heal full amount, but not so often)
Movement rate is slowed for the players and increased for the monsters (kiting is impossible, mobs will jump you)

3 trees:
Melee Defense - This gives all sorts of additional defense bonuses to fighter classes (monk, fighter, barbarian, paladin) making them end up more the role they were classically known for filling, which was melee.

Magic Offense/Defense - This helps with CC and defense against fire, cold, electricity... etc as well as choosing more defense between save against spells or fortitude, etc... it might also offer something that resets cool downs on hot keys, since these things will be taking longer and that will greatly impact how fights play out.

Stealth - This one offers stuff that makes it so Stealth can function in reaper or melee (and since the tree stacks and works in both places gives more stealth ability in reaper too). It offers improved move silently, hide, sneak... and a few neat new things like Phasing which would have you stop existing for 5 or 10 seconds, then reappear somewhere. The fun part is that while you don't exist you can still move around :P Or improved Invisibility, which can only be used if you are already invisible to make you even more invisible when you hit something (it won't wear off), this effect might last 30 seconds or a minute, basically stealth tree brings stealth into the fix (with monsters moving way faster then you, and your cooldowns way down, melee is one option, sneaking is another... )


Two modes that become Twin Modes and manage to validate every single class in the game!

Melee Mode = Fighter(melee)/Barbarian(melee)/Monk(melee)/Palidan(melee)/Rogue(stealth)

Reaper Mode = Ranger(ranged)/Wizard(caster)/sorcerer(caster)/Warlock(caster)/Artificer(caster or ranged)/Bard(any 3)/Cleric(healing caster)/FvS(healing caster),Druid (healing caster)

With both modes tied together, all these classes will end up going into the other mode to get full goodies. Because goodies stack, higher difficulty settings become more appealing. (you see 6 skulls, jump on it, since you got a melee tree stacking with grim barricade... really helping you to perform like a melee in reaper... lfms will work much better this way).



Reaper Mode needs a twin mode to balance itself out. Melee Mode is like night compared to Reaper Mode being day.

One nerfs healing.

The other nerfs healing rate and instakill rate and CC rate.


Both toughen up monsters. Both have 5 unique champions to make em worse.

One gives a defense tree (grim barricade) to sorta help but not really enough.

The other gives a defense tree (melee mode version) that helps melee classes more then other classes, helps out a lot, but still not enough.

Combined and stacking, both defense trees help a lot more, but still not enough. (done by design this way, so you grind, but still got to get gear, levels, good set up... and figure out the rest on your own)

[LavidDynch]

You know why devs took the old Vorpal (no HP limit) and the old Nightmares on weapons away? Because melees were destroying dungeons with them.

Vorpals and nightmares.. ha! what about the good old QP monks had for one update? Ye, clearly too OP. A group of those suckers equaled about one mediocre caster in terms of instantkill power... We got to nerf that! Also add moar of the same to the game, just don't give it to the fatboy... Cutting down on the Snickers but allowing the Mars bar won't make this fatboy skinny. Another proof that the devs are rudderless and that the community are in large parts either blind, dumb or has a very biased agenda.

Btw, In heroics Paladins has forced mass vorpal x24 or so... hardly no one plays the class.

[KingNite]

If mobility is the ONLY reason to play ranged DPS as claimed, then the entire ranged archetype was designed incorrectly. When every single ranged character plays ranged for the exact same one reason, that reason being OP is correctly stated as such.

Yeah mobility is the ONLY objective reason ( fun is subjective ) to play ranged DPS over melee DPS right now. That doesn't make it OP as you claim, that only means that everything else about ranged DPS is c***, and so removing/nerfing their only strenght is a bad idea that will not make melees more happy or strong, it would just make ranged players upset. I not sure if the game need more upset players...

[Chai]

Yeah mobility is the ONLY objective reason ( fun is subjective ) to play ranged DPS over melee DPS right now. That doesn't make it OP as you claim, that only means that everything else about ranged DPS is c***, and so removing/nerfing their only strenght is a bad idea that will not make melees more happy or strong, it would just make ranged players upset. I not sure if the game need more upset players...

If having to make good play decisions is why players get upset and leave, the motives of the community become suspect.

Ranged and casting being the META due to mobility - When everything else but mobility sucks for ranged, and everything sucks for melee, then the logical conclusion is the one thing that doesnt suck for ranged is OP. Due to mobility, ranged is not challenged as much as melee, which is why the players who want to play melee are upset. I see zero evidence that the dichotomy is people who ONLY play melee versus people who ONLY play ranged. I see people who want to play both, but why should they when ranged is objectively always better due to mobility being OP?

When the META is this far out of balance, the ranged characters get all the use, and the melee character that was entirely geared while playing the ranged character stays parked, because playing the ranged character is still far less challenged. This provides zero objective reason to play the melee character.

Furthermore, as a revenue strategy, the company stands to gain by requiring players to make good play decisions on all builds, rather than only requiring them to do so when playing their melee, and keeping ranged the clear and obvious META choice.

[KingNite]

Ranged and casting being the META due to mobility - and keeping ranged the clear and obvious META choice.

See here is where you fail. Ranged DPS and mobility is NOT the META in high skulls, the META it's CC, instakills and charms. No one is completing r10 with mobility or kitting, not a single vid of a ranged DPS kitting and killing 20 mobs to victory ( on high skulls). Because you can't kite 20 ( well you technicaly could, but very few can) mobs that every single one of them can kill you with 1 shot, sooner or later you die without crowd control. It's not mobility that gives casters and edge over melee and ranged dps, is the CC. And it's not mobility that gives Ranged Dps and edge over melee dps in high skulls it's the impossibility for the melees to get close to not CC'ed mobs due to 1 shot mechanics. That's why in low skulls the diference is much lower, no 1 shots in there so melees can actually use their superior dps most of the time while in high skulls they have to be very carefull. But if you think they should nerf mobility that's ok we will have to agree to disagree I can't really make my point clearer than I already did.

You can try to solve "poberty" by making everyone "poor" or by giving those "poor" a chance to get out of the situation. Both work on the short term, the second is much better on the long run

PS. In lower skulls what hurts melee ( who always need to heal more than ranged ) the most is, imo, the self healing penalty. That makes them more dependant on others heals, while ranged ( if well played) tends to need less heals.

[Captain_Wizbang]

So, ranged and casters are far superior to melees in reaper. (r4 & above)

And some of you people think reaper isnt creating a bigger rift than we had before?

I belong to a great guild, and if we as a group decide that anything which cant include the whole guild then we most likely wont run it. (reaper settings)

We can roll into almost any quest/raid with confidence and a team effort. Reaper isnt a given. So melees still maintain a healthy contribution.

Im not a fan of reaper, and this thread's soundings is a good example of why.

[nokowi]

That's my tank and that's the whole point ?

I try to move as little as possible after engaging mobs in order to control and kill the mobs as painless and fast as possible and minimize the randomness and damage taken by my party.
I noticed that people greatly underestimate the damage they take without the tank - some know how to play with tank ( or healer or enchanter ), some learn after few deaths, some never do and they will never get invited again.

I simply watched the game play and said it looks not very interesting at the pinnacle of challenge - lots of standing around (not just by the tank, but by most players), and attacking of non moving mobs.

Yes I understand what a tank is and why you are doing it. I complimented the teamwork and coordination. What you seem to miss is how the entire game play could be much more engaging. I can say this without any negatives towards your own choices for trying to get through high reaper. The fact that you can get killed and fail doesn't make the portion in between that failure extremely engaging.

Sorry it doesn't seem "very interactive" to you and I wouldn't expect other high skull theoretics on these boards to understand.
One bad pull or not intimed stray champ and people die. Slow hjealer and party dies. Slow Mass Hold or Finger from caster and people die. Bad positioning and you die.

And all this happens while you all largely stand still - little tactical movement or movement response to mobs.

But once again, I'd gladly watch and learn from others.

This is not about you learning or forum theory crafting - at's about how easy it would be to make combat more engaging.

These forums became total nonsense. Melee might be harder to play now and it's total fail too often.
People could stop whining and group up with some hjealer or wizard friends and work together.
But that's impossible for megalomaniac kill count obsessed primadonnas.

Forums indeed are total nonsense. You failed to respond to my points or even think about how game play could be more engaging for melee with more tactical options. Instead you went on a rant about things not even related to me or my posts. Thanks for being part of the problem.

High skull reaper is brilliant. Where it completely FAILS is the fact that it's NOT the way for character progress and negates the very things it's supposed to promote. Killed alts and beating difficult stuff has been replaced with endless enormous grind.

I'm sure you like your role. Attacking non moving mobs is of no interest to me, so consider that my preferences might be different than yours.

Notice the pattern - tank, hjealer, crowd control.
Good melee is great to have, bad melee is well ... bad.

I got it before I watched the video. Thanks for pointing out the obvious once again. It's like you can't comprehend that others might view standing around most of the encounter in order to be successful (not you as the tank, but the the entire party) a bad design.

If you want to turtle up as the tank, that makes perfect sense. The game fails pretty miserably at encouraging tactical movement by the rest of the party. Take a look at the blue dots (not just yours) and tell me what happens as you trinity your way through the content. It's essentially whack-a-mole where the party stands in one spot and drops non moving mobs.


9 skull Memoirs with monk and kensei.
8 skull Devil's Details with monk.
7 skull Slavers with tempest.
10 skull Devil's Details with pally and tank.
10 skull Subversion with pally and monk
10 skull Multitude with pally and monk

Glad your having fun. I get the division of roles to create such non interactive play. It's what one shot design requires at high reaper, as many interactions are a one shot for the non tanks - reducing interaction with mobs is a good play choice - it's just not as interactive as play could be with a better game design.


Imagine if mobs could continually hit players and still challenge the group in such a way that movement decisions were important for the rest of the party. It's not that hard to grasp, and in no way is it a reflection on you or your choices.

[TacoBob33]

Imagine if mobs could continually hit players and still challenge the group in such a way that movement decisions were important for the rest of the party. It's not that hard to grasp, and in no way is it a reflection on you or your choices.

We don't have a system that allows for that level of "tactical" gameplay. Even games that have that style of gameplay it's clunky.

[nokowi]

We don't have a system that allows for that level of "tactical" gameplay. Even games that have that style of gameplay it's clunky.

Go load up any DDO video pre-reaper and count how often players get hit, or move in response to mobs.

Then compare with high reaper videos.

Do you know that the good melee players used tactical movement almost all the time, pre reaper?

We don't need a new system - we could benefit from more intelligent and engaging design that could include tactical movement.

There is something between standing still and kiting - how quickly players seem to have forgotten...

[TacoBob33]

Go load up any DDO video pre-reaper and count how often players get hit, or move in response to mobs.

Then compare with high reaper videos.

Do you know that the good melee players used tactical movement almost all the time, pre reaper?

We don't need a new system - we could benefit from more intelligent and engaging design that could include tactical movement.

There is something between standing still and kiting - how quickly players seem to have forgotten...

Please show me this "tactical movement", because as far as I've ever seen you're either in a mobs hit box or you're kiting.

[phillymiket]

There is something between standing still and kiting - how quickly players seem to have forgotten...

People like to argue as if someone who isn't "all in" on something must be "all out".
If you have issue with Reaper you must therefore be a P2W OP Casual Elitist Nerf Herding Complainer who wants the game to go back to ROFLStomping for quick power.
If you have a problem with Range you must be interested in not using melee tactics.
As if there isn't always a happy middle ground between two miserable extremes.

The truth is many people have many varied issues right now. There isn't "a side" that's unhappy but lot's of people unhappy for all sorts of reasons and painting everyone with the same brush, while rhetorically easier, is not an honest portrait.

[Ulfo]

Search for any LoB vids before ED's.

People had to move to avoid damage, block to avoid stun, stay behind the boss, be in position when he do superman, stay away from the dogs goo and avoid agro, etc...

So, all what they do before - pure kiting.
Exactly same, as currently. It's your point?

So, was before kiting was so good and why now it's so bad for you? 8)

[phillymiket]

Please show me this "tactical movement", because as far as I've ever seen you're either in a mobs hit box or you're kiting.

The mobs project their actions, you can step out of the way of their big strikes then step back after they swing.
You can stun or trip mobs and then use that mobs body to block other mobs from hitting you.
You can circle around to the mobs flank.
You can use the environment, even a single column or a table, to funnel the mobs or create choke points.
There are lots of tactics that people can and do use.
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean much when a single hit or two puts you at death's door.

[Niminae]

Why we can't have a game mode where all play styles have fun and contribute to the completions?

Is it a crazy idea?

It's not a crazy idea, it's just impossible in this complex game where one change can and will have ripple effects which were not anticipated. Such as charming monsters being a deprecated tactic in N/H/E, and then suddenly being a very good tactic in Reaper. And then there is the fact that the game could be (won't ever be, but hypothetically speaking) perfectly balanced for one particular dungeon, and the simple change to a different dungeon can turn that on its head. Inevitably someone will run Good Intentions on their Charm speced whatever class and then cry that balance is out the window because constructs are immune to their charms. Or take their fire spec Sorc into Taming the Flames and the tears will flow. Or any number of other examples. You really can't have "all play styles hav[ing] fun and contribut[ing] to the completions" in a game where in one dungeon a character can contribute to DPS just fine and in another they can barely hurt anything at all.

When the meta can change just because the difficulty level is set to a different level by the players or the players move from Dungeon A to Dungeon B, true balance is not ever going to be achieved.

[TacoBob33]

The mobs project their actions, you can step out of the way of their big strikes then step back after they swing.
You can stun or trip mobs and then use that mobs body to block other mobs from hitting you.
You can circle around to the mobs flank.
You can use the environment, even a single column or a table, to funnel the mobs or create choke points.
There are lots of tactics that people can and do use.
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean much when a single hit or two puts you at death's door.

I can hardly kite a reaper without being in it's hitbox so you're going to be hard pressed to tell me that most of that works.