Warlock Balancing

[Cetus]

omg Cetuss just came back to forums and you can already have a taste of his gigantesque ego

huh

[guardiankaiser]

Reverting to the old rules would actually fix a LOT of things (while also hampering a few as well):

SR penetration also used your caster level DC's I think, and when you multi-classed, you often wound up gimping your DC's. Then again, in P&P, you had utility spells that, if applied creatively (such as shape stone spell [which Jerry Holkins of Acquisitions uses well in the Dwarven Vault, as well as in the Season finale]) would allow you to bypass fighting altogether.

Drow being able to apply spell resistance against damaging spells would actually be a phenomenal buff for them since, in the lore for the Forgotten Realms, the Drow saw themselves as the master race thanks to their spell resistance (and with a mere potion, the Drow could cast AOE spells near each other with impunity without hurting their comrades). Beating a Drow as a spell caster often meant creative application of your spells (and using the environment against them). The only problem now is, since Spell resistance is readily available through Cannith Crafting, going back to this system means we swing the pendulum SUPER wide toward melee's being nearly unstoppable (and ranged characters would be double so, and the monks, yeah they're super again). By doing this, Bladeforged would have a meaningful competitor through the elves.

For an Iconic Drow, this would actually be a cool feature (being able to apply your racial spell resistance [so it stacks with items] against spell attack damage). The other thing that might really irritate the current meta - making spells operate on ATTACK rolls just like in the current pen and paper (magic missiles was the only spell I am aware of that's guaranteed to hit) using your 2 x your BAB if you are a pure caster, or 25% + your BAB, if you're not.

Spell resistance was a simple CL check done exactly how DDO does it, with the exact same bonuses for the feats (with obviously inflated items, but it's an MMO, and well Lv.30 magic items also got really silly (and varied vastly on the rules you used for epic play)) unless you mean before 3rd, in which case it was basically just a flat thing that happened (40% spell resistance meant exactly that)

Considering that touch/ranged touch spells were balanced to basically hit except against creatures who's AC was not derived using high natural / manufactured armor (such as monk/rouge) it might be fair to say dodge chance would apply but then again DDO always said they represented touch by actual game play (you can just flat out miss with any ray spell if the target is moving to the side) that sure doesn't happen in PnP, I'm an avid PnP fan but this obsession with trying to match the rules "cause PnP balanced it better" is... comical (a majority of PnP forum discussions is about how unbalanced or broken things are especially at higher levels (god help you post level 20). Oh that and until it's turn based trying to use /ALL/ the same rules is going to get you in trouble

[Clemeit]

/signed

And sorry, but I personally don't believe that "small" tweaks are going to do the trick. Perhaps a lot of small tweaks over many months might do it.

They are the supreme easy button. I've taken level 14/1 iconic warlocks completely naked through at-level and above-level elite content and been able to easily solo it. That's ridiculous. ES takes no skill, and personally I find it highly boring how easy it makes the game. It makes for some easy PLs, but when you can split any class with 9 levels of warlock to get a quick past life, and still be highly viable and nearly always leading kill counts... I mean come on how obvious is the P2W here.

And sure sure, I've seen people argue that it is and should be a P2W class, but my heart honestly drops when a warlock joins a party I'm in. It turns decent content into, as others have said, a total pike fest. I'm usually lucky to get a single hit in on a single mob before the warlock casually walks through, double bursts killing everything in sight, and moves on.
It's not like it's a class that takes a heavy gear setup to succeed. As I said, you can run naked through most content and still lead the group in damage output.

It's not like it's a class that requires strategic build planning or PLs. Just max con or charisma and put the rest into the stat you didn't max. Throw points into ES. Go lead KC in any group. It's really that easy.
It's not like it's a class that requires skillful playing. You literally stand in the middle of a group of mobs and click two abilities. Every few... I don't know... quests or so... you might have to heal, but probably not even that considering you got a free 500 temp HPs every 30 seconds.

My capped warlock has 2,892 HPs, 196 PRR, 133 MRR. Temp HPs reach 3,900. Reconstruct heals for ~1,600 a pop. And I still do enough damage to lead KC in most EE/LE content. All while playing with one hand. And that's not a result of significant build planning. I was just messing around.

And it's not enough for me to "just not play warlock and stop complaining," because when a warlock joins the group, I know that myself and all the other players in the group are obsolete. That's depressing, and that's degrading.

[zehnvhex]

If it wasn't warlocks it would be deep gnomes running around insta-killing everything. Nerfing a class because they're good at the most boring aspect of the game (trash killing) is kind of excessive. Before Warlocks we had steel tower builds with 3k hp and 250+ prr and whatever other ungodly **** you want to pull out. Before that we had shiradi throwers, tree builds, paladins paladins paladins. Right now I'd be more worried about fighters honestly. You think 9 warlock/whatever else is a pretty sweet TR build? Try 6 fighter/3 paladin. Holy crikeys stuff melts. Plus you're not gimped on single target DPS like an ES warlock is. Do 14 paladin/6 ranger and marvel at what is an equally if not more terrifying DPS machine.

The way you guys talk about not getting kills I can only imagine all of you are all running Axel's Zero DPS Melee Cleric build.

[Requiro]

/signed

And sorry, but I personally don't believe that "small" tweaks are going to do the trick. Perhaps a lot of small tweaks over many months might do it.

They are the supreme easy button. I've taken level 14/1 iconic warlocks completely naked through at-level and above-level elite content and been able to easily solo it. That's ridiculous. ES takes no skill, and personally I find it highly boring how easy it makes the game. It makes for some easy PLs, but when you can split any class with 9 levels of warlock to get a quick past life, and still be highly viable and nearly always leading kill counts... I mean come on how obvious is the P2W here.

And sure sure, I've seen people argue that it is and should be a P2W class, but my heart honestly drops when a warlock joins a party I'm in. It turns decent content into, as others have said, a total pike fest. I'm usually lucky to get a single hit in on a single mob before the warlock casually walks through, double bursts killing everything in sight, and moves on.
It's not like it's a class that takes a heavy gear setup to succeed. As I said, you can run naked through most content and still lead the group in damage output.

It's not like it's a class that requires strategic build planning or PLs. Just max con or charisma and put the rest into the stat you didn't max. Throw points into ES. Go lead KC in any group. It's really that easy.
It's not like it's a class that requires skillful playing. You literally stand in the middle of a group of mobs and click two abilities. Every few... I don't know... quests or so... you might have to heal, but probably not even that considering you got a free 500 temp HPs every 30 seconds.

My capped warlock has 2,892 HPs, 196 PRR, 133 MRR. Temp HPs reach 3,900. Reconstruct heals for ~1,600 a pop. And I still do enough damage to lead KC in most EE/LE content. All while playing with one hand. And that's not a result of significant build planning. I was just messing around.

And it's not enough for me to "just not play warlock and stop complaining," because when a warlock joins the group, I know that myself and all the other players in the group are obsolete. That's depressing, and that's degrading.

Something wrong here

[LordPiglet]

Some interesting opinions there! Let's break that down:

• Wolf/Tree build fixes are coming.
  
  • The timing has less to do with the severity or priority and more to do with the complexity.
  • Yes, there is time to fix Warlock before broken Druid abilities. It takes less time to repair a crack than rebuild an entire wall.
  
  
• Planned Warlock changes are based primarily on data collection and testing.
  
  • Warlocks aren't the most powerful damage-dealers in the game right now, but neither are Paladins or Barbarians.
  • For that matter, we really haven't been hearing that "Melee players are upset that their OP Paladins and Barbarians aren't miles ahead of all the Casters anymore" at all. Even if we had, it would not be the sole deciding factor.
  
  
• Endgame is not the only measure that counts.
• The fact that some changes are necessary is not diminished by the fact that other necessary changes have not happened yet.

Anyway!

Hope everyone is having a fine morning.

I hope by this you mean you're going to fix all the wolf melee problems. Such as not getting proper effect from IC (Crit range now goes from 19-20 to 18-20 with the changes to IC, I have bug reported this ). Finding a way to give wolves a +W to their attacks (the only way they get it now is from 1 item that drops from Fire on Thunder Peak). Improving Natural Fighting to make it actually compete with TWF, THF and SWF on it's own.

Currently attack speed is the only way for wolves to increase their DPS, if you don't fix the underlying issues, then it's pointless to play one at end game. There's too many penalties.

[guardiankaiser]

/signed

And sorry, but I personally don't believe that "small" tweaks are going to do the trick. Perhaps a lot of small tweaks over many months might do it.

They are the supreme easy button. I've taken level 14/1 iconic warlocks completely naked through at-level and above-level elite content and been able to easily solo it. That's ridiculous. ES takes no skill, and personally I find it highly boring how easy it makes the game. It makes for some easy PLs, but when you can split any class with 9 levels of warlock to get a quick past life, and still be highly viable and nearly always leading kill counts... I mean come on how obvious is the P2W here.

And sure sure, I've seen people argue that it is and should be a P2W class, but my heart honestly drops when a warlock joins a party I'm in. It turns decent content into, as others have said, a total pike fest. I'm usually lucky to get a single hit in on a single mob before the warlock casually walks through, double bursts killing everything in sight, and moves on.
It's not like it's a class that takes a heavy gear setup to succeed. As I said, you can run naked through most content and still lead the group in damage output.

It's not like it's a class that requires strategic build planning or PLs. Just max con or charisma and put the rest into the stat you didn't max. Throw points into ES. Go lead KC in any group. It's really that easy.
It's not like it's a class that requires skillful playing. You literally stand in the middle of a group of mobs and click two abilities. Every few... I don't know... quests or so... you might have to heal, but probably not even that considering you got a free 500 temp HPs every 30 seconds.

My capped warlock has 2,892 HPs, 196 PRR, 133 MRR. Temp HPs reach 3,900. Reconstruct heals for ~1,600 a pop. And I still do enough damage to lead KC in most EE/LE content. All while playing with one hand. And that's not a result of significant build planning. I was just messing around.

And it's not enough for me to "just not play warlock and stop complaining," because when a warlock joins the group, I know that myself and all the other players in the group are obsolete. That's depressing, and that's degrading.

For that right there I don't believe you, if that is all you did, you would be a seriously crappy warlock if you are not adding in anything else to the mix, and would be completely outclassed by an equally geared druid laying down all the aoe's (unless fire immune). The base damage numbers and time increments speak for themselves (assuming equal spell power).

Also at those defense numbers while a good chunk of that MRR is coming from warlock base kit, very little of that PRR is so it has nothing to do with being a warlock, as I said before at most (assuming you were not going to use another base attack capping method) your pulling 19 from warlock and 22 from full base attack medium armor (that's 22 over what 15 BAB would net you).

Your Reconstruct literally has nothing to do with being a warlock at all, they have nothing to boost it, nor can they get it.

1100 temp, if you saying is all from warlock is something like 80 con, sure that makes you tough as hell, but the "skip charisma" warlocks (which if that's what your playing it is kinda your fault for it being boring playstyle, you traded being able to do anything interesting for what 7 con, maybe 9 for 2 more build points as well)

Since your a Con-lock and all your doing is dropping aura and bursts, unless your playing with some serious **** people you are not topping anything, I'll assume you are also dropping some ruins in there which isn't massively improved by being a warlock either, unlike good timing with a wizard tossing them out.

Lastly if you have such a capped out bladeforged +1 Heart level swapped Warlock what kind of jerk are you when you so claim that your heart sinks when you see other people playing it.

I do think warlocks need some balance adjustments for heroic levels, but the example they can one shot a group of enemies in heroic elite, not even letting people get a hit in (cause its not true in epic elite) is rather meaningless as so can many other builds, hell if its not the new quests face full of abashi my roommate who plays a Artificer often pulls better kills them me in the heroic TR run cause they are dead way before I can walk up to them to even hit with aura. (Or a druid who can just snipe most of the heroic quests with enlarge lightning bolts form a mile away, I got a lot of complaints in my last life (druid) that I didn't let people hit the enemies, it's not that hard)

I just think a lot of people are making some serious exaggerated claims to crush warlock cause its the cool thing to do

[Clemeit]

Something wrong here

You're correct. I was speaking in present tense, while I should have spoken in past tense. I just find it easier to recount stories in present.

[Clemeit]

I do think warlocks need some balance adjustments for heroic levels, but the example they can one shot a group of enemies in heroic elite, not even letting people get a hit in (cause its not true in epic elite) is rather meaningless as so can many other builds, hell if its not the new quests face full of abashi my roommate who plays a Artificer often pulls better kills them me in the heroic TR run cause they are dead way before I can walk up to them to even hit with aura. (Or a druid who can just snipe most of the heroic quests with enlarge lightning bolts form a mile away, I got a lot of complaints in my last life (druid) that I didn't let people hit the enemies, it's not that hard)

Let me condense that last post to drive the point home. If I could, with no prior experience, roll a naked, level 14/1 iconic warlock and easily solo heroic elites better than geared, seasoned players with many PLs and high-end gear, something is wrong.

Sure, perhaps a druid can lead KC, and sure perhaps another spell caster can do it too. But warlocks can without using a single SP. And I don't see many druids and sorcerers with the kind of temp HP ability that warlock has.

if that is all you did, you would be a seriously crappy warlock if you are not adding in anything else to the mix

Killing things faster than anyone else isn't adding to the mix? Not sure if we're playing a different game, but speeding up a quest considerably, while simultaneously taking agro away from melee players is actually adding a lot.

unless your playing with some serious **** people you are not topping anything

Well that's subjective. I often played with people leagues better than me, and I'm pretty sure I often topped the charts.
If I were playing warlock and only topped **** people, I wouldn't be here complaining. In fact, if that were actually the case, this thread wouldn't exist.

[Chai]

The constant demand for, and capitulation to, nerf demands of t2 builds has created a meta where the power gap between t1 and t2 is larger than the gap between t2 and the worst flavor build on the forums. The entire reason why specific players continue to carry on demanding "more challenge" is because the t1 god mode builds haven't been addressed. If you are going to do nerfs, at the very least address the most powerful build first, and work your way down the ladder.

Im also not down with the "complexity" excuse provided regarding the reasoning behind leaving god mode builds where they are at while continually decreasing the power of t2 and lower builds. They have been around for 4 years but cant be addressed due to the complexity? 40% of this games lifespan is too short a time to address it? ForumDDO® absolutely refused to wait even half that time for nerfs to other things, demanding adjustments now rather than waiting, but they are more than happy to let the real god mode builds remain as they are for 4+ years. This is a direct contradiction in logic.

[Chai]

Let me condense that last post to drive the point home. If I could, with no prior experience, roll a naked, level 14/1 iconic warlock and easily solo heroic elites better than geared, seasoned players with many PLs and high-end gear, something is wrong.

Sure, perhaps a druid can lead KC, and sure perhaps another spell caster can do it too. But warlocks can without using a single SP. And I don't see many druids and sorcerers with the kind of temp HP ability that warlock has.

Heroic elite should not ever be used as a benchmark, due to the lobbying for, and capitulation to, keeping the relative challenge of heroic elite at 2012 levels, while buffing character power to 2016 levels (or lower). Due to this, anything designed and implemented 2013 and beyond is going to be OP in heroic elite. This includes but is not limited to warlock.

[Ziindarax]

Spell resistance was a simple CL check done exactly how DDO does it, with the exact same bonuses for the feats (with obviously inflated items, but it's an MMO, and well Lv.30 magic items also got really silly (and varied vastly on the rules you used for epic play)) unless you mean before 3rd, in which case it was basically just a flat thing that happened (40% spell resistance meant exactly that)

Considering that touch/ranged touch spells were balanced to basically hit except against creatures who's AC was not derived using high natural / manufactured armor (such as monk/rouge) it might be fair to say dodge chance would apply but then again DDO always said they represented touch by actual game play (you can just flat out miss with any ray spell if the target is moving to the side) that sure doesn't happen in PnP, I'm an avid PnP fan but this obsession with trying to match the rules "cause PnP balanced it better" is... comical (a majority of PnP forum discussions is about how unbalanced or broken things are especially at higher levels (god help you post level 20). Oh that and until it's turn based trying to use /ALL/ the same rules is going to get you in trouble

Believe it or not, I am actually inclined to agree with you - I was just throwing it out there to see how the people calling for nerfs would respond.

/signed

And sorry, but I personally don't believe that "small" tweaks are going to do the trick. Perhaps a lot of small tweaks over many months might do it.

They are the supreme easy button. I've taken level 14/1 iconic warlocks completely naked through at-level and above-level elite content and been able to easily solo it. That's ridiculous. ES takes no skill, and personally I find it highly boring how easy it makes the game. It makes for some easy PLs, but when you can split any class with 9 levels of warlock to get a quick past life, and still be highly viable and nearly always leading kill counts... I mean come on how obvious is the P2W here.

And sure sure, I've seen people argue that it is and should be a P2W class, but my heart honestly drops when a warlock joins a party I'm in. It turns decent content into, as others have said, a total pike fest. I'm usually lucky to get a single hit in on a single mob before the warlock casually walks through, double bursts killing everything in sight, and moves on.
It's not like it's a class that takes a heavy gear setup to succeed. As I said, you can run naked through most content and still lead the group in damage output.

It's not like it's a class that requires strategic build planning or PLs. Just max con or charisma and put the rest into the stat you didn't max. Throw points into ES. Go lead KC in any group. It's really that easy.
It's not like it's a class that requires skillful playing. You literally stand in the middle of a group of mobs and click two abilities. Every few... I don't know... quests or so... you might have to heal, but probably not even that considering you got a free 500 temp HPs every 30 seconds.

My capped warlock has 2,892 HPs, 196 PRR, 133 MRR. Temp HPs reach 3,900. Reconstruct heals for ~1,600 a pop. And I still do enough damage to lead KC in most EE/LE content. All while playing with one hand. And that's not a result of significant build planning. I was just messing around.

And it's not enough for me to "just not play warlock and stop complaining," because when a warlock joins the group, I know that myself and all the other players in the group are obsolete. That's depressing, and that's degrading.

Clemeit, I challenge your claims. I've DIED in Elite Shavarath (New Invasion) despite being a so called "god build" warlock (melee spec, granted). I need gear to survive even as a warlock, and so do new players running warlocks who don't have tomes (which you and I do), who don't have prior knowledge of quests, mob tactics, or even gear (which you and I do). Even with the new Slave-lord crafted gear (and the insightful con +8 trinket, and litany docent), toughness at level 30, I am not anywhere NEAR 2,892 hitpoints, as a bladeforged who put majority points into strength and con, AND I am running Primal Scream + Tensors to boot - the most I EVER got at level 30 was about 1.1k temporary hitpoints brining my totals to just above 2k, which can still be one-shotted by a legendary elite boss (and Legendary Elite mobs can take that down in about two or three hits).

In Epic Elite, it is very possible to get overwhelmed by a group of mobs, and taken out well before reconstruct and shine through come off cooldown.

Anyone can get those hit point values... I've seen wizards and sorcerers running around with over 1k hit points (does this mean they should be nerfed, too?). The other thing, Bladeforged as a race really are the master race - they make ANY build over-powered (I've got a bladeforged monk build that, in concept, looks very over-powered. and after u33, most likely will be). Cetus' build that I've been parading around as an example of a non-caster build that is substantially more powerful than warlock uses the Bladeforged race with reconstruct. Contrary to your, and others', claims, staying alive in Epic Elite (and definitely Legendary Elite) requires substantial effort (especially since some of the quests in the game have/are getting rebalanced. For example, Lords of Dust was once the easiest of all epic elites - it's now one of the harder ones thanks to silent balance passes), even for a pure warlock. Some of the more powerful warlock builds are from the fact that you can multi-class, and you can combine the hit points, save bonuses, and extra feats to make a more powerful build.

These nerfs that some are demanding will impact all warlocks, not just the bladeforged ones, and those who do not play multi-class builds and are not bladeforged/sun lord/PDK (the three races who receive healing with the latter two restricted on the number of times they may heal per rest) are going to get slaughtered (Soul eater's heal attack doesn't heal like reconstruct, and it's the only thing approximating a heal that warlocks get outside of potions and scrolls, which nearly any class can use and be op with).

As far as I am concerned, there needs to be a hard damage cap on melee and ranged weapons (which can do substantially more damage than ANY Caster ever could, more often than any caster ever could, and for free unlike most casters). Also, all of the casters (including warlocks despite their pact save boosts) suffer from weak saves, hit point issues, and lower prr. Casters are supposed to be epic at epic levels, and they're not; DC casting is very nearly a waste of time and resources, and the only viable caster builds end-game are warlocks and shiradi missile spammers (because just about every other caster build has a hard time getting anything to work without top-of-the-line gear and past lives).

To take it further, why not implement class restrictions for ALL classes? Religious Classes will not sell their souls to anyone (especially not a satanic entity via the fiend pact) for power without becoming an apostate and abandoning their teachings (and all the spells and enhancements, and abilities granted by that), and Warlocks (being one of the infernal classes) should not be able to become religious and still maintain (a potentially satanic) pact - for their new God(s) may call them to repentance, and deign that they abandon and abhor their prior infernal knowledge and practices. As it stands, you only need 6 fighter levels to get a critical multiplier, 5 warlock for extra buffs, ameliorating strike from favored soul, and if you're a toaster, you're good (The warlock does not get shining through, however, as he wouldn't have enough for the other abilities that would make the build op).

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 4.31.203
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 30 Lawful Good Bladeforged Male
(6 Fighter \ 9 Favored Soul \ 5 Warlock \ 10 Epic) 
Hit Points: 648
Spell Points: 1896 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 14
Will: 17

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 30)           (Level 30)
Strength             16                 28                   28
Dexterity            15                 21                   21
Constitution         16                 22                   22
Intelligence         12                 18                   18
Wisdom                7                 13                   13
Charisma             10                 16                   16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3 \par +2 Tome of Strength used at level 7 \par +3 Tome of Strength used at level 11 \par +4 Tome of Strength used at level 15 \par +5 Tome of Strength used at level 19 \par +6 Tome of Strength used at level 23 \par +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3 \par +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7 \par +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11 \par +4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15 \par +5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 19 \par +6 Tome of Dexterity used at level 23 \par +1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3 \par +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7 \par +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11 \par +4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15 \par +5 Tome of Constitution used at level 19 \par +6 Tome of Constitution used at level 23 \par +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3 \par +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 \par +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11 \par +4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15 \par +5 Tome of Intelligence used at level 19 \par +6 Tome of Intelligence used at level 23 \par +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3 \par +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7 \par +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11 \par +4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15 \par +5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 19 \par +6 Tome of Wisdom used at level 23 \par +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3 \par +2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7 \par +3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11 \par +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15 \par +5 Tome of Charisma used at level 19 \par +6 Tome of Charisma used at level 23 \par 
                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 30)          (Level 30)
Balance              -5                  6.5                 11.5
Bluff                 0                 10                   13
Concentration         0                 10                   16
Diplomacy             0                 10                   13
Disable Device        n/a              n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                 10                   13
Heal                  2                 33                   34
Hide                 -5                  5                   10
Intimidate            0                 10                   13
Jump                 -5                  9                   18
Listen                0                 10                   11
Move Silently        -5                  5                   10
Open Lock             n/a              n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a              n/a                   n/a
Repair                6                 31                   35
Search                2                 12                   16
Spellcraft            2                 33                   37
Spot                  0                 10                   11
Swim                 -10                 0                    9
Tumble               n/a                n/a                  n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a               23                   26

Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Adamantine Body
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Enchant Weapon
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Arcane Sphere: Enchant Weapon
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Divine Sphere: Power Over Life and Death
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Divine Sphere: Power Over Life and Death
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Divine Sphere: Power Over Life and Death
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Primal Sphere: Fast Healing
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen
Feat: (Past Life) Epic Past Life - Primal Sphere: Colors of the Queen
Feat: (Past Life) Iconic Past Life: Bladeforged
Feat: (Past Life) Iconic Past Life: Bladeforged
Feat: (Past Life) Iconic Past Life: Purple Dragon Knight
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Warlock
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Warlock
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Bladeforged
Feat: (Automatic) Composite Plating
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Light Fortification
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Feat: (Automatic) Warforged Traits


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 5 (Warlock)
Skill: Spellcraft (+3)
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Warlock: Deceive Item
Feat: (Automatic) Warlock: Eldritch Blast Damage
Feat: (Automatic) Warlock: Eldritch Blast Focused
Feat: (Automatic) Warlock: Pact Magic: Fey
Spell (1): Jump


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Repair (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Exotic Weapon Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Conditioning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Conditioning (Rank 2)


Level 8 (Warlock)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Feat: (Automatic) Warlock: Pact Damage
Spell (1): Ooze Puppet


Level 9 (Warlock)
Skill: Repair (+0.5)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Warlock)
Skill: Repair (+1.5)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Warlock: Beguiling Defense
Spell (2): Blur


Level 11 (Warlock)
Skill: Repair (+1.5)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Repair (+0.5)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Lord of Blades
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Spell (1): Protection from Evil


Level 13 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Spell (1): Nightshield


Level 14 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+3)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Child of the Lord of Blades
Spell (1): Nimbus of Light


Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds


Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Heal (+4)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire
Spell (2): Resist Energy


Level 17 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Bladesworn Transformation
Spell (3): Remove Curse


Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Spell (2): Aid
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds


Level 19 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement


Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Spell (4): Panacea
Spell (3): Aid, Mass
Spell (2): Inflict Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Healer's Friend (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Healer's Friend (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Healer's Friend (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defensive Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Sacred Touch (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Energy Absorption (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Energy Absorption (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Energy Absorption (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Eldritch Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Aura of Courage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Body (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Body (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Body (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Soul (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Soul (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Resilience of Soul (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Bastion (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Bastion (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light I (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Power of Enlightenment - Light I (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Ward (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Ward (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Ward (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Retribution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Retribution (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Enlightened Spirit (Wlk) - Spiritual Retribution (Rank 3)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Power
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Skills


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Bulwark of Defense


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Primal Sphere: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Divine Sphere: Epic Spell Power: Light


Level 29 (Epic)
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Fate Point


Level 30 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Martial Sphere: Dire Charge
Feat: (Legendary) Scion of Celestia

[Tlorrd]

Clemeit, I challenge your claims. I've DIED in Elite Shavarath (New Invasion) despite being a so called "god build" warlock (melee spec, granted). I need gear to survive even as a warlock, and so do new players running warlocks who don't have tomes (which you and I do), who don't have prior knowledge of quests, mob tactics, or even gear (which you and I do). Even with the new Slave-lord crafted gear (and the insightful con +8 trinket, and litany docent), toughness at level 30, I am not anywhere NEAR 2,892 hitpoints, as a bladeforged who put majority points into strength and con, AND I am running Primal Scream + Tensors to boot - the most I EVER got at level 30 was about 1.1k temporary hitpoints brining my totals to just above 2k, which can still be one-shotted by a legendary elite boss (and Legendary Elite mobs can take that down in about two or three hits).

In Epic Elite, it is very possible to get overwhelmed by a group of mobs, and taken out well before reconstruct and shine through come off cooldown.

Anyone can get those hit point values... I've seen wizards and sorcerers running around with over 1k hit points (does this mean they should be nerfed, too?). The other thing, Bladeforged as a race really are the master race - they make ANY build over-powered (I've got a bladeforged monk build that, in concept, looks very over-powered. and after u33, most likely will be). Cetus' build that I've been parading around as an example of a non-caster build that is substantially more powerful than warlock uses the Bladeforged race with reconstruct. Contrary to your, and others', claims, staying alive in Epic Elite (and definitely Legendary Elite) requires substantial effort (especially since some of the quests in the game have/are getting rebalanced. For example, Lords of Dust was once the easiest of all epic elites - it's now one of the harder ones thanks to silent balance passes), even for a pure warlock. Some of the more powerful warlock builds are from the fact that you can multi-class, and you can combine the hit points, save bonuses, and extra feats to make a more powerful build.

I got tbh ... I do agree with Clem in that what a warlock can do to and in LE/EE quests. I've solo'd every LE quest while I was level 20 on a warlock. Yes I do have past lives (not completionist), and many ED past lives (again not triple completionist). I have most of the top gear (but not LGS). Also I don't use BF but rather human (or currently deep gnome to get the past lives) and with temp hps and tensors, I'm sitting at 3k. My PRR ranges from 180-200 depending on gear and my MRR is 130+. It takes ~ 6 secs to kill a group of mobs (it doesn't matter how many, I try to gather them all in place) ... aura, burst, burst, aura ... and then either burst to finish off any stragglers. I don't need Cha because I have free CC with confusion, why go DC when I get to CC mobs 10% per EB ... and I can tell you, it procs a lot.

Any LE quest is a joke to complete. I do enjoy playing warlock because i can farm for gear easily and quickly. Also I can farm long quests (TOEE) that would be nigh impossible on any other caster due to the spell point restrictions.

If they got rid of spell points and made cooldowns the way to regulate spells, things would not only balance better, but casters would explore and use their full arsenal of spells rather than trying to replicate what a warlock does with a couple of SLAs.

[slarden]

I got tbh ... I do agree with Clem in that what a warlock can do to and in LE/EE quests. I've solo'd every LE quest while I was level 20 on a warlock. Yes I do have past lives (not completionist), and many ED past lives (again not triple completionist). I have most of the top gear (but not LGS). Also I don't use BF but rather human (or currently deep gnome to get the past lives) and with temp hps and tensors, I'm sitting at 3k. My PRR ranges from 180-200 depending on gear and my MRR is 130+. It takes ~ 6 secs to kill a group of mobs (it doesn't matter how many, I try to gather them all in place) ... aura, burst, burst, aura ... and then either burst to finish off any stragglers. I don't need Cha because I have free CC with confusion, why go DC when I get to CC mobs 10% per EB ... and I can tell you, it procs a lot.

Any LE quest is a joke to complete. I do enjoy playing warlock because i can farm for gear easily and quickly. Also I can farm long quests (TOEE) that would be nigh impossible on any other caster due to the spell point restrictions.

If they got rid of spell points and made cooldowns the way to regulate spells, things would not only balance better, but casters would explore and use their full arsenal of spells rather than trying to replicate what a warlock does with a couple of SLAs.

You solo'd those quests very slowly and the reason is because you can dump dc and only lose 13% or so dps. The only way Turbine can fix that is by making more of the eld blast and light procs subject to a save not by nerfing a few things here or there.

They can make that one simple change and there is no need to nerf anything. It creates a trade off between more defenses and more dps.

[Tlorrd]

You solo'd those quests very slowly and the reason is because you can dump dc and only lose 13% or so dps. The only way Turbine can fix that is by making more of the eld blast and light procs subject to a save not by nerfing a few things here or there.

They can make that one simple change and there is no need to nerf anything. It creates a trade off between more defenses and more dps.

Of course it was slow ... I was using +100sp item at that time and have no ruin, greater ruin, or arcane pulse to make boss fights go faster ... regardless, the point is that it can be done and easily.

Also I'm not saying that they need to nerf anything ... I'm just saying that the class can easily solo any epic content regardless of which level at or above 20 he or she is.

[Six_Gun]

Heroic elite should not ever be used as a benchmark, due to the lobbying for, and capitulation to, keeping the relative challenge of heroic elite at 2012 levels, while buffing character power to 2016 levels (or lower). Due to this, anything designed and implemented 2013 and beyond is going to be OP in heroic elite. This includes but is not limited to warlock.

This sums it up. The vast majority of people crying for nerfs to Warlock are people that only play Heroic content. Heroic content should be considered the "beginners" area of DDO. Balancing classes with that in mind is asinine. The only measure that should be applied for balancing is end game performance and in that regard Warlock isn't even top three.

Listening to these people whine about how a Warlock had more kills in some level 10 quest is getting ridiculous.

[Vish]

Sorry for coming late to the party,

Warlock is easy button,
Good for noobs and tr trains
And ESP for soloing

I would say leave it alone.
Bring everything else up to its standard

An un nerf bat
for say divines.

[slarden]

Of course it was slow ... I was using +100sp item at that time and have no ruin, greater ruin, or arcane pulse to make boss fights go faster ... regardless, the point is that it can be done and easily.

Also I'm not saying that they need to nerf anything ... I'm just saying that the class can easily solo any epic content regardless of which level at or above 20 he or she is.

You did it because of defenses which you got by dumping charisma for con, taking shield feats and going into unyielding sentinel for high hp. ANY build that has such high defenses can solo these dungeons slowly. The reason it works a little better for warlock is because they only lose 13% dps by dumping the main stat. That is what needs to be fixed - not an overall nerf.

If they fix that making more of the eld blast and the light/chaotic damage subj to save this problem goes away.

A simple nerfing of a few random things from the warlock tree won't fix it - it will only result in more people dumping dc to increase defenses since so little of that comes from the warlock tree itself.

[Ziindarax]

I got tbh ... I do agree with Clem in that what a warlock can do to and in LE/EE quests. I've solo'd every LE quest while I was level 20 on a warlock. Yes I do have past lives (not completionist), and many ED past lives (again not triple completionist). I have most of the top gear (but not LGS). Also I don't use BF but rather human (or currently deep gnome to get the past lives) and with temp hps and tensors, I'm sitting at 3k. My PRR ranges from 180-200 depending on gear and my MRR is 130+. It takes ~ 6 secs to kill a group of mobs (it doesn't matter how many, I try to gather them all in place) ... aura, burst, burst, aura ... and then either burst to finish off any stragglers. I don't need Cha because I have free CC with confusion, why go DC when I get to CC mobs 10% per EB ... and I can tell you, it procs a lot.

Any LE quest is a joke to complete. I do enjoy playing warlock because i can farm for gear easily and quickly. Also I can farm long quests (TOEE) that would be nigh impossible on any other caster due to the spell point restrictions.

If they got rid of spell points and made cooldowns the way to regulate spells, things would not only balance better, but casters would explore and use their full arsenal of spells rather than trying to replicate what a warlock does with a couple of SLAs.

Again, I smell BS. How is it possible to have PRR that high (I assume you're going robes or MAYBE medium armor), when I have a level 20 pure warlock who is no where NEAR 1-2-3k hit points (even at level 30)? Either I am a really terrible builder, or you are lying just to communicate that warlocks need super nerfed. The average warlock (myself included) are not able to push hitpoints that high. Please provide proof (and screenshots) of your alleged build, along with a break down of hit points and gear.

T1 PRR and MRR enhancements are not working right for me with my heavy armor build, so I am only getting 10 instead of 16, but still. I am at 75prr, 54mrr. Despite having all this, I am not able to solo Legendary Elite content as the mobs are too large in numbers and hit too hard (with players, I can play just fine). Epic Elites, I can play just fine, but I am not god mode - it requires active movement on my part to stay alive, even with displacement.

[Tlorrd]

You did it because of defenses which you got by dumping charisma for con, taking shield feats and going into unyielding sentinel for high hp. ANY build that has such high defenses can solo these dungeons slowly. The reason it works a little better for warlock is because they only lose 13% dps by dumping the main stat. That is what needs to be fixed - not an overall nerf..

Having high con does not equal defenses ... Also my original builds went Int based and not con or cha. Shield feats only give PRR ... Defense in this is game is more than just HP and PRR. You still need to avoid damage while in LE quests. There are multiple ways to do this and that is the key to being survivable, not just high con and PRR.