Update 32 on Lamannia: Cannith Crafting Preview

[Elfishski]

According to the devs loot level is based on die roll from chest level table. So a level 34 chest might have a small chance of loot level 40 item - only the devs know for sure, but chest level is only used to determine the table for the roll - the roll determines the actual loot level.

I think level 34 is fine considering 40 is the max dropping in the game. I have +17 stat items from random loot. +8 necromancy/+4 insightful necromancy dropped in an LE Tempest spine on a loot weekend vs. +6/+3 from crafting. Not to mention crafting cost is expensive so from years of crafting I might have 80 or so of a medium rarity collectible. It won't take me long to burn through 6 years worth of accumulation.

For me about half my random loot will be replaced with cannith crafted loot - the rest will remain because #s on the random loot is better. That seems about right to me.

I don't like this direction - I prefer a more flexible system in terms of slots than random loot, but much weaker power to compensate, rather than having (almost) the same list of effects in exactly the same slots as random loot, but I can understand it's a viable development decision to make, even if I don't like it.

Given that, I agree with you that at level 30 there's a reasonable balance between a guaranteed good combination (at high ingredient cost) for Cannith Crafting but the potential for notably better random loot, because there's a 6 level difference between Cannith Crafting (34) and Random Loot (40... at the moment until higher level quests get released?).

At EVERY other level, Cannith Crafting and Random Loot are the same level. Assuming you have the ingredients, then aside from finding crafting more boring than questing, there is no piece of Random Loot you would ever use over Cannith Crafting - the chances of finding the right item, with a bonus slot (and probably an augment slot as well, because why wouldn't we use an item with an augment slot for all Cannith Crafting?), masterful craftsmanship, and maxed rolls on 3 effects and exactly the 3 effects you want at exactly your current level is so miniscule that you can just forget it.

Please, devs, don't forget all other levels. Like warlocks and everything else, it's not enough to see if it looks okay at level 1, and level 30, and just assume everything in between is balanced, because that's just not the case.

[slarden]

At EVERY other level, Cannith Crafting and Random Loot are the same level. Assuming you have the ingredients, then aside from finding crafting more boring than questing, there is no piece of Random Loot you would ever use over Cannith Crafting - the chances of finding the right item, with a bonus slot (and probably an augment slot as well, because why wouldn't we use an item with an augment slot for all Cannith Crafting?), masterful craftsmanship, and maxed rolls on 3 effects and exactly the 3 effects you want at exactly your current level is so miniscule that you can just forget it.

The devs must have considered that because the collectible ingredient cost is really really high. If I look at my 100+ life supply of collectibles I can make several items but need to ration or I will run out quickly. Some ingredients are even more scarce because until about a year ago I was constantly adding +1 saves or +1 damage or +1 ac to all my characters with the stone of change. I am not sure why I stopped but I am glad I did lol.

I will make a few leveling items, but it won't be like the old system where my characters have loads of crafted gear for leveling. Also, those extra slots and perfect gear is needed more at end game where you have to fit in LGS and named items. For leveling it's not as important so a mix of random + crafted is fine.

[ramzes7asit4]

Join to edit doc (power by level in new CC): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[Propane]

Hello!

A few thought after playing around on Lamannia...


I have a blank belt with both a yellow and colorless slot and tried adding house C Favor extra slot - it won't let me.

WAI or bugged?

I am excited to have a chance to make my old standby Metalline of Vampirism weapons - (live version has been bugged for quite some time).
I don't see either of these available currently on Lamannia...

WAI or bugged or WIP?

I do really like the way the crafting is stream lined.
Directly picking the ML - much better than live
Directly picking the attributes - much better than live

I don't like not knowing that item type effects can go into, can the list of item types (belt/ring/etc) be added to the tool tip?
I do feel the current effects / slot items feel very limiting - I hope this gets relaxed (aka flexible) shards some time in the future.

The biggest disappointment is the amount of collectible required... as I posted earlier...

The high costs are hurting those with alts.
The high cost are hurting those new to the game.
The high cost are hurting those new to crafting.

5 -->1
15-->3

Divide by 5 at least for Bound Items.

Will the drop rates of collectibles be adjusted?

[Elfishski]

The devs must have considered that because the collectible ingredient cost is really really high. If I look at my 100+ life supply of collectibles I can make several items but need to ration or I will run out quickly. Some ingredients are even more scarce because until about a year ago I was constantly adding +1 saves or +1 damage or +1 ac to all my characters with the stone of change. I am not sure why I stopped but I am glad I did lol.

I will make a few leveling items, but it won't be like the old system where my characters have loads of crafted gear for leveling. Also, those extra slots and perfect gear is needed more at end game where you have to fit in LGS and named items. For leveling it's not as important so a mix of random + crafted is fine.

Yes, ingredients cost being high means that we may still use some random loot along the way because we can't afford to craft all the items, but certainly this update means that we can never ever be excited by finding any random gear below level 30 (40) again, because all of it is suboptimal, just good enough. So no chest or reward list will be worth even a glance again. We're returning to the status quo of all chests are trash from before the random loot update, but two or twenty tiers of power creep higher. I won't stop playing over it, I'll probably even enjoy crafting a couple of very powerful items with hoarded collectibles, but this update as currently planned is yet another long stride down the road to the game becoming less interesting for me, ymmv.

[ramzes7asit4]

Hello!
I have a blank belt with both a yellow and colorless slot and tried adding house C Favor extra slot - it won't let me.

Add minimal level shard first

[Propane]

Add minimal level shard first

Ah- that worked - thanks!

[Propane]

On the shard crafting page (with Recipe Book / Search / Sort).

Can we add options for the gear type?



If it would be possible to overwrite ML for an item, that would take some of the bite out of high cost...

I could make my STR gloves of Resistance (for example) and update the ML (and power) of the item as I leveled up...

[Nuclear_Elvis]

From a Design perspective, the new Cannith Crafting needs a cost structure revamp, but with caveat:

- Leave the material cost as-is for the Third/extra effect, because that makes it "special" or rare in contrast to normal loot.
- Reduce the materials cost for the first two effects, the standard prefix + suffix, to ensure that materials grind is more in line with the current Cannith Crafting. This ensures that Guild leadership that crafts items for their members or friends/family helping others stays viable longer term so we don't have bottlenecks preventing helping others to create custom 2-stat gear. As-is, the new system makes crafting for others much more challenging and costly in materials, but at least preserve that social aspect of crafting for custom 2-stat gear.

Flexibility. As you see from many comments, there are many players who still are not happy with the lack of flexible shards. Perhaps you Dev's consider that as being too overpowered if any 3 stat combinations could be generated, but if you take my advice above and leave costs for the 3rd effect, it always becomes more rare as result. You could also experiment with Bound-only flexibility at least, then keeping the power of the flexibility in the hands of the crafter alone (and the crafters' characters).

New Loot System flaws are being transitioned in some ways into new Cannith Crafting. This is a bad thing. Whether it is Plus Zero gear potential, or the word "Spellsight" instead of "Spellcraft" used to define the skill affected, and the lack of some effects (like "Erosive") that you dropped from Old Random Loot without warning or notification to the player community, there are still aspects of New Random Loot that you need to clean up so that in new crafting it is updated in parallel.

Lack of crafting for Challenge gear and Runearms. To those of us on the receiving end, it sounds like you either ran out of time to make attempt at this, or the "spaghetti code" oft complained about is too complex for you to wade into. Regardless "why" - we need more of a college effort on this one instead of an apparent white flag to permanently give up on the effort. Artificer Class itself should give you pause, as it is intended to be a Class where crafting levels are boosted, but proportionally you've nerfed Artificer as result of this change, if implemented as-is. An Artificer's level boost is proportionally less effective given the new crafting level range spread. And you're apparently taking away the opportunity for Artificer to craft a level wield reduction for runearms (which has become the norm in game for that Premium Class). Try harder to keep Artificer a Premium Class.

Caution: Dev's should be concerned if their new implementations come off too strongly as "pay-to-win" rather than being a game improvement that both brings in and retains more players (especially paying players) to the player community. Which type of players do you want to retain, a select few willing to throw down lots of cash on DDO, or cast a wider net to bring in a larger number of players that may be spending less? (or when something is designed well, you may get both) -- This update to the game, in my opinion, will not bring in a large number of new players nor will it be the impetus to retain lots of players, but instead it appears you are marketing this at the select few that may dump lots of cash into DDO. Good luck with that, but I don't think you have a great sales pitch going here considering that you're simultaneously peeving a large portion of the existing player base with this update.

[Aelonwy]

Yes, ingredients cost being high means that we may still use some random loot along the way because we can't afford to craft all the items, but certainly this update means that we can never ever be excited by finding any random gear below level 30 (40) again, because all of it is suboptimal, just good enough. So no chest or reward list will be worth even a glance again. We're returning to the status quo of all chests are trash from before the random loot update, but two or twenty tiers of power creep higher. I won't stop playing over it, I'll probably even enjoy crafting a couple of very powerful items with hoarded collectibles, but this update as currently planned is yet another long stride down the road to the game becoming less interesting for me, ymmv.

I don't think this is quite true. There are still a number of effects we are not allowed to craft and we will probably always be scouring our reward lists for masterful items with that one higher number for DCs, spell pen, etc and items with augment slots. I noticed healing/repair amp and insightful spell power despite being on the New Random loot armors is disallowed or an oversight in the New cannith crafting, I'm sure there are other such instances. Two of my characters on live get insightful wizardry from a random necklace. Doesn't seem like I'll be able to upgrade or improve that with crafting. I might have missed it but I didn't see the extra crit damage for weapons, which I hope is an oversight. At first blush, yep there's quite a bit we'll be wanting to replace with hand crafted items but between ingredient costs and absent effects its going to be a far more selective crafting process.

[slarden]

Yes, ingredients cost being high means that we may still use some random loot along the way because we can't afford to craft all the items, but certainly this update means that we can never ever be excited by finding any random gear below level 30 (40) again, because all of it is suboptimal, just good enough. So no chest or reward list will be worth even a glance again. We're returning to the status quo of all chests are trash from before the random loot update, but two or twenty tiers of power creep higher. I won't stop playing over it, I'll probably even enjoy crafting a couple of very powerful items with hoarded collectibles, but this update as currently planned is yet another long stride down the road to the game becoming less interesting for me, ymmv.

Good random loot will always be welcome.

Non-crafters are complaining it's OP and crafters are complaining it's not flexible enough and too costly (ingredients). Maybe both groups are wrong.

Rock says paper is overpowered, but thinks scissors is about right and rock needs a boost.

[Axeyu]

Good random loot will always be welcome.

Non-crafters are complaining it's OP and crafters are complaining it's not flexible enough and too costly (ingredients). Maybe both groups are wrong.

Rock says paper is overpowered, but thinks scissors is about right and rock needs a boost.

No, it's not "crafters" and "non-crafters". It's those who want some balance and those who want to have everything with minimal effort.

[slarden]

Caution: Dev's should be concerned if their new implementations come off too strongly as "pay-to-win" rather than being a game improvement that both brings in and retains more players (especially paying players) to the player community. Which type of players do you want to retain, a select few willing to throw down lots of cash on DDO, or cast a wider net to bring in a larger number of players that may be spending less? (or when something is designed well, you may get both) -- This update to the game, in my opinion, will not bring in a large number of new players nor will it be the impetus to retain lots of players, but instead it appears you are marketing this at the select few that may dump lots of cash into DDO. Good luck with that, but I don't think you have a great sales pitch going here considering that you're simultaneously peeving a large portion of the existing player base with this update.

I think pay-to-win talk is utter nonsense here.

I already showed how someone can level up with either a 1390 or 40 TP option depending on essence accumulation, both of which can be earned in game easily before U32 is released. Many VIPS have much more than that saved up because they get 500/month and don't buy any content.

Or some of us might pay $8.30 instead because well.... it's only $8.30 and I spent more than that on lunch every day this week. I think it's a positive not a negative that people spend some money on this game which is the way Turbine will keep it going.

From a store option perspective nothing really changed except alot of people acquired alot of essences since 2011 and can get more benefit out of the store options than they could back in 2011.

I should also add that while a small investment in TP does help level significantly, it's not required. If anything Turbine is probably leaving money on the table because they are letting us keep our levels and allowing us to convert our old essences to the new essence - which players have in great abundance. Alot of people that use the store options will purchase with VIP points or earned favor points because the cost is so low.

[Aelonwy]

From a Design perspective, the new Cannith Crafting needs a cost structure revamp, but with caveat:

*snip*

Good summation and ideas.

[slarden]

No, it's not "crafters" and "non-crafters". It's those who want some balance and those who want to have everything with minimal effort.

I haven't seen any indication that people want anything for minimal effort. I have alot of essences and collectibles and those took me years to accumulate. Most people probably have alot less than me and I am understanding their concerns about cost although I am also fine if it doesn't change. I would like to see the system work for the whole community and the definition of "minimal effort" means different things to different people.

To someone that is only able to log in a few hours per week because they have 2 jobs and kids, nothing in this game is minimal effort. I see reasons why Turbine did what they did for every point that's been discussed. Whether people agree or disagree, I do feel Turbine put a ton of thought into this system and making everyone happy is impossible - including the extremes of people who want the old system excactly how it was and people that have no intention of crafting and don't want to see crafters have any benefits.

[slarden]

On the shard crafting page (with Recipe Book / Search / Sort).

Can we add options for the gear type?



If it would be possible to overwrite ML for an item, that would take some of the bite out of high cost...

I could make my STR gloves of Resistance (for example) and update the ML (and power) of the item as I leveled up...

Since everything is bound to account you can make multiple sets of item and re-use those for other characters when they hit the level range.

I will have a con/sheltering/ins con ring and dodge/false life/ins false life belt for various level ranges: 10, 15, 20, 25 maybe and use those for whatever character is tr'ing.

[Aelonwy]

I think pay-to-win talk is utter nonsense here.

I could be wrong here and I'll let Nuclear_elvis correct me if so but my first thought was that he was referring to the PEDs over-abundantly used in recipes. There is an association, perhaps wrongly, in people's minds between PEDs and pay-to-win because the first or easiest source of these is tomes ...and astral shards. Seeing those used so liberally was definitely a sticker shock moment for me.

[slarden]

I could be wrong here and I'll let Nuclear_elvis correct me if so but my first thought was that he was referring to the PEDs over-abundantly used in recipes. There is an association, perhaps wrongly, in people's minds between PEDs and pay-to-win because the first or easiest source of these is tomes ...and astral shards. Seeing those used so liberally was definitely a sticker shock moment for me.

Oh if that is the case I apologize, I can see where he gets that from because I thought that also.

i no longer do. I will earn 40 or so each life - mostly from tokens of the twelve but also from turning in small/large, favor tomes, selling stuff on ASAH. Even if I TR immediately that is net 20 each life.

I looked through my bank and found I had enough smalls, larges, tokens of the twelve and greater tokens of the twelve to make about 300 PED. Also, if you have any bank toons that have the older birth day boxes with the btc tomes the bank toons can turn those in for bta ped.

The system is gated by collectibles, but not PED in my opinion. Collectibles are earned entirely in game. Making things for others will be problematic because tokens fo the twelve are not tradeable, but they are making unbound crafting much harder intentionally so it doesn't ruin the market for random loot.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Oh if that is the case I apologize, I can see where he gets that from because I thought that also.

i no longer do. I will earn 40 or so each life - mostly from tokens of the twelve but also from turning in small/large, favor tomes, selling stuff on ASAH. Even if I TR immediately that is net 20 each life.

I looked through my bank and found I had enough smalls, larges, tokens of the twelve and greater tokens of the twelve to make about 300 PED. Also, if you have any bank toons that have the older birth day boxes with the btc tomes the bank toons can turn those in for bta ped.

The system is gated by collectibles, but not PED in my opinion. Collectibles are earned entirely in game. Making things for others will be problematic because tokens fo the twelve are not tradeable, but they are making unbound crafting much harder intentionally so it doesn't ruin the market for random loot.

Slarden,
The differences in bias stem from our ongoing crafting usage and expectations, for one thing. You talk about these mythical "saved essences" as if everyone is a long-term veteran player that has horded years worth of essences awaiting this new crafting system. That is flawed analysis, and that portion of the player community is limited (limited as in - only certain ones will actually craft even if they have them in the bank).

For crafters such as myself, I have no extra essences except for some Lessers, and even they get burned constantly making Enhancements in the current system. I've crafted useful items for low-level, especially new-to-game players, for 18 months now and burn through comps as fast as I get them, but - my main is only at crafting level 80 ish across schools even though I've put in more hours crafting than many of the level-capped crafters. I'm in a category that uses crafting, continually, even when it doesn't bring XP, but instead brings guild member and player satisfaction to their game. I get no XP for making an Underwater Action Ring of Persuasion, as example, which I have made well over 200 of them (lost count) alone, aside from other custom builds. Guild members that don't craft have fed me components, and not for me to go level up my crafter, simply to create output. There is a good chunk of the player base that likes to use crafting results, but doesn't like to craft. And - the crafters filling that need aren't necessarily capped out.

One of the points I am trying to make is that there is a Social aspect to crafting that rides in the balance here. We're only seeing responses typically from those who currently craft, or will craft with this new system. There's an enormous player base on the sidelines of this one that may only chime in after the fact, after new crafting implementation and the perceived effects of it.

EDIT: And to clarify, I am saying this knowing that there are many Guilds across this game where only 1-2 players were considered the crafter for the guild, and the guild has relied upon them. Those crafters and their guilds expected this new system to preserve that relationship and arrangement, and I'm not certain we're getting there.

[slarden]

Slarden,
The differences in bias stem from our ongoing crafting usage and expectations, for one thing. You talk about these mythical "saved essences" as if everyone is a long-term veteran player that has horded years worth of essences awaiting this new crafting system. That is flawed analysis, and that portion of the player community is limited (limited as in - only certain ones will actually craft even if they have them in the bank).

For crafters such as myself, I have no extra essences except for some Lessers, and even they get burned constantly making Enhancements in the current system. I've crafted useful items for low-level, especially new-to-game players, for 18 months now and burn through comps as fast as I get them, but - my main is only at crafting level 80 ish across schools even though I've put in more hours crafting than many of the level-capped crafters. I'm in a category that uses crafting, continually, even when it doesn't bring XP, but instead brings guild member and player satisfaction to their game. I get no XP for making an Underwater Action Ring of Persuasion, as example, which I have made well over 200 of them (lost count) alone, aside from other custom builds. Guild members that don't craft have fed me components, and not for me to go level up my crafter, simply to create output. There is a good chunk of the player base that likes to use crafting results, but doesn't like to craft. And - the crafters filling that need aren't necessarily capped out.

One of the points I am trying to make is that there is a Social aspect to crafting that rides in the balance here. We're only seeing responses typically from those who currently craft, or will craft with this new system. There's an enormous player base on the sidelines of this one that may only chime in after the fact, after new crafting implementation and the perceived effects of it.

I understand more than you think. I started with ftp and crafting came not too long after and I was always short on essences, collectibles and spent every plat I got on crafting.

I've done some crafting for friends and guildies, but it doesn't sound nearly as much as you. I will say those people should be giving you their essences and hopefully they aren't among the many that just leave them in chests.

I will agree if you don't have essences it is a long process to level, but that isn't because Turbine designed the system as pay to win.