Update 32 on Lamannia: Cannith Crafting Preview

[ValariusK]

On the collectibles issue: I have to comment that the game desperately needs a good bottomless Platinum sink. What if there was a vendor that sold eberron dragonshards (small/medium/large) at very high prices? I'm thinking something like 250K (small) 500K (medium) 750K(large). Said shards can be turned in for various goodies (already, like 20% xp pots), or used in crafting (with the new system). Having them available via a vendor would actually stimulate the AH, since undercutting the price of the vendor wouldn't be that hard, and it would suck massive amounts of platinum out of the system on an ongoing basis, making it actually valuable to a lot more people. You can also add some collectibles to the mysterious remnant dealer.

[Aelonwy]

...or just their recipes?

I'm going through my crafter's gargantuan ingredients bag, where all of the shards I ever created while leveling are still sitting. I'm going through them right now and deconstructing them since it looks like old shards are going to disappear when the new update goes live. However, I was going to keep the flexible ones since they were going to become irreplaceable.

Then it occurred to me that they might ALL be disappearing in a few days. Is that so? Should I deconstruct every shard in my bag?


Thanks.

As I understand it the shards won't disappear but they will no longer be usable once the New crafting goes into effect. You should probably use whatever you feel is useful before the next update and deconstruct every left over shard for ingredients too.

[slarden]

Where did I say it is not worth it?

I said that putting yet more power gated by time sinks instead of challenge is bad.

The items are insanely powerful. Maybe you swim in 15/7 +something items but I don't. For example, the best current raid item for wisdom is a 12/4 in googles from Doj.

Acquiring mats an essences is not challenging in the least since they drop in all difficulties. Standing in front of an interface crunching crab has no appeal from either a challenge or even gameplay stand point.

The whole CC system has always been a flop but at least until now one could ignore it. Not it is being forced down our throats by giving it a level of awesomeness it is hard to ignore.

So I either spend money and time in the salt mines deconstructing and crafting ******** or I play the rng lottery for a couple years to get that oh so common 15/7 dex ring of hamp. Gotcha!

Did you spend time crafting on Lamannia or are you speculating?

I didn't find leveling problematic due to the min level shards which only require essences, but I won't be able to make all the items I want due to the ingredient cost requirements. For those that don't want to craft they can make money selling ingredients to crafters and can also buy items from crafters if they wish.

The system works for everyone, but the cost of the unbound items needs to be high enough it doesn't distort the market. They can probably lower the cost of bta a bit based on the complaints from casual players since there is no significant market impact of the crafted bta items. I am fine either way - if they lower the costs of bta or keep it where it is.

[BigErkyKid]

Did you spend time crafting on Lamannia or are you speculating?

I didn't find leveling problematic due to the min level shards which only require essences, but I won't be able to make all the items I want due to the ingredient cost requirements. For those that don't want to craft they can make money selling ingredients to crafters and can also buy items from crafters if they wish.

The system works for everyone, but the cost of the unbound items needs to be high enough it doesn't distort the market. They can probably lower the cost of bta a bit based on the complaints from casual players since there is no significant market impact of the crafted bta items. I am fine either way - if they lower the costs of bta or keep it where it is.

What part of what I am saying is not clear?

The system does NOT work for everyone. We were told that RNG was balanced because stars aligned would be rare. Now stars aligned is given out in CC. Sure, maybe in a weekend with loot bonus you can loot a chest with a jewel on and BOOM a 17/7 or whatever. The odds of that are so small that it doesn't even matter. In the meantime here you are, 15-7+ something awesome.

The leveling component of it is only part, the ingredients are costly to acquire but for the most part the big deal are the PEDs. Those can be bought with real money or as you say are incredibly rare.

Acquiring an awesome raid-level piece of gear is now only gated by stupid amounts of time / real money collecting things. This is one step more towards making DDO into a Korean grinder. There is absolutely no challenge / difficulty involved in CC, it is exclusively a time sink.

CC crafting has always been a grind, but as I said it was optional. It was mostly useful for TR junkies, who are grinders anyway. Now CC can supply you with he BiS stat and general purpose gear to cover gaps.

I already said, and I'll repeat:

Let me put it this way: the more powerful the stuff (loot, PLs) gated behind grind is, the more this game becomes a grinding rather than challenging game.

This might be what you want, but quite certainly it is not what I enjoy and as such I will provide my comments. I know this will go live as is most probably, but at least let's make clear what it is. A silly time sink with a cash grab side to it.

[JOTMON]

What part of what I am saying is not clear?

This part.

Did you spend time crafting on Lamannia or are you speculating?

[BigErkyKid]

This part.

I am getting the new lama version as we speak. The interface, the actual amount of shards I'll need to craft, whether it is 10 or 12 PEDs, all that doesn't matter to me one bit. I knew my verdict when I saw a 15/7/60hamp crafted.

[slarden]

What part of what I am saying is not clear?

The system does NOT work for everyone. We were told that RNG was balanced because stars aligned would be rare. Now stars aligned is given out in CC. Sure, maybe in a weekend with loot bonus you can loot a chest with a jewel on and BOOM a 17/7 or whatever. The odds of that are so small that it doesn't even matter. In the meantime here you are, 15-7+ something awesome.

The leveling component of it is only part, the ingredients are costly to acquire but for the most part the big deal are the PEDs. Those can be bought with real money or as you say are incredibly rare.

Acquiring an awesome raid-level piece of gear is now only gated by stupid amounts of time / real money collecting things. This is one step more towards making DDO into a Korean grinder. There is absolutely no challenge / difficulty involved in CC, it is exclusively a time sink.

CC crafting has always been a grind, but as I said it was optional. It was mostly useful for TR junkies, who are grinders anyway. Now CC can supply you with he BiS stat and general purpose gear to cover gaps.

I already said, and I'll repeat:

This might be what you want, but quite certainly it is not what I enjoy and as such I will provide my comments. I know this will go live as is most probably, but at least let's make clear what it is. A silly time sink with a cash grab side to it.

What's not clear is whether you participated in cannith crafting on Lamannia and if so what level are you. Did you participate in the original Cannith Crafting and if so what crafting levels did you reach?

It doesn't match top tier random loot which can go up to +17 bonus to stats vs. +15 with cannith crafting.

I have news for you when the level cap was 20 I preferred cannith crafted gear over the majority of raid and epic loot.

I believe the ddo birthday boxes offered tomes for 2 years but maybe it was only 1. You can go to all your bank toons and use the box to get tomes and turns those in for bta purified eberron dragonshards. I got over 100 that way.

With that said, I think the cost of bta items should be reduced to 2 purified eberron dragonshards where it is currently 5, but if they don't change it I won't be complaining either - it just means I need to ration my crafting a bit more.

You are interesting in that you are argue there isn't enough to do and then every time they give us something to do you argue it's op while at the same time not worth it. Your position is confusing to me.

[Propane]

Totally agree about the amount of collectables needed for crafting being way too high - especially for bound items.

I have faithfully smashed and collect stuff for nearly a decade -

I copied my max level crafter over - who has been crafting for all my alts - pooling all the mats from all my alts...

I couldn't make any of the completed items I wanted with what I had on my crafter.

I will have a hard time making much of anything with these high cost of collectable requirements needed for crafting..

The high costs are hurting those with alts.
The high cost are hurting those new to the game.
The high cost are hurting those new to crafting.

5 -->1
15-->3

Divide by 5 at least for Bound Items.

Any changes to drop rates?

Unbound - still too high, but can be higher than bound, maybe X 2

I moved my Maxed Level crafter over and tried to make at few things I normally would - STR, CON, Vamp - I couldn't make anything due to missing mats..

[BigErkyKid]

You are interesting in that you are argue there isn't enough to do and then every time they give us something to do you argue it's op while at the same time not worth it. Your position is confusing to me.

Perhaps if you actually tried to understand what I say there wouldn't be confusion.

I don't need time sinks in a game. I don't need to kill time, I want to have fun. For me it is fun to try to acquire loot that is gated by difficulty, trying to come up with ways of getting past it. The loot is a simple carrot.

CC is not doing that at all, and a lot of the systems they are designing to give me stuff to do aren't like that that either. They are pure time sinks. ePLs, PLs, ENx20 raiding, and cannith crafting. All those are designing around beating content time and again and again. They are a pure time sink. Right now acquiring PEDs and what not is going to be a matter of spending the time IG doing that.

Yes, I tried CC, some years ago, out of curiosity. It looked complex and as such I thought there was some fun there. I didn't get too far because I soon realized that it simply was a pure grind. The new CC is the exact same thing as the old one, except that now it scales to a level that is useful for end game.

As for my participation in the current CC, as I said I am getting my lama client right now. But you and I know that the comment is a smoke screen. It does not matter if it is 5-10-15-20 PEDs. That's only a matter of how deep the grind is. But the grind is a grind because of the set up, not because it is 10 instead of 5.

You can tell me that I can ignore grind, but then you gate the majority of power behind it. So what is it, ignoring the character progression aspect of the game? That is the carrot that should be used to challenge me to play in high difficulties. And now that carrot is given away if you have the stomach to get through CC.

[slarden]

Perhaps if you actually tried to understand what I say there wouldn't be confusion.

I don't need time sinks in a game. I don't need to kill time, I want to have fun. For me it is fun to try to acquire loot that is gated by difficulty, trying to come up with ways of getting past it. The loot is a simple carrot.

CC is not doing that at all, and a lot of the systems they are designing to give me stuff to do aren't like that that either. They are pure time sinks. ePLs, PLs, ENx20 raiding, and cannith crafting. All those are designing around beating content time and again and again. They are a pure time sink. Right now acquiring PEDs and what not is going to be a matter of spending the time IG doing that.

Yes, I tried CC, some years ago, out of curiosity. It looked complex and as such I thought there was some fun there. I didn't get too far because I soon realized that it simply was a pure grind. The new CC is the exact same thing as the old one, except that now it scales to a level that is useful for end game.

As for my participation in the current CC, as I said I am getting my lama client right now. But you and I know that the comment is a smoke screen. It does not matter if it is 5-10-15-20 PEDs. That's only a matter of how deep the grind is. But the grind is a grind because of the set up, not because it is 10 instead of 5.

You can tell me that I can ignore grind, but then you gate the majority of power behind it. So what is it, ignoring the character progression aspect of the game? That is the carrot that should be used to challenge me to play in high difficulties. And now that carrot is given away if you have the stomach to get through CC.

I don't think making you happy is possible. You would find a reason to complain regardless of what they do.

The old CC system was fun for me and this one will be too. I don't see a huge grind for leveling. The ingredient cost to make items is really high and although I can accept it the way it is, it's obvious it's too much for more casual players so I hope they make an adjustment to at least bta crafting for their benefit.

As for PED you can get 1 for each token of the twelve. 1-3 for small to med eberron fragments. Multiples for tomes. You can even get some for AS you earn selling items in the ASAH. So on an average life 1-30 it is looking like I can earn 50+ or so PED easy. The collectibles are another story. I might go a whole life and not get a single lightning split soarwood or fragrant drowshood. Other lifes I get 3-4 of each, but not nearly enough to craft with on a regular basis.

The reason I asked if you logged in is because a simple trip to the crafting vendor will explain how much easier it is to get PED now. People are focused on PED, but I am more worried about the collectibles than PED because there is no turn-in option to get those and some are extremely rare drops. I am not sure if the devs understand the scarcity of some collectibles. 1 Lightning Split Soarwood is a large cost to me.

I would like to see an option to turn in mysterious remnants and/or coms of valor for collectibles and/or PED if the costs remain so high, but that is just an idea.

[lostgunman]

Totally agree about the amount of collectables needed for crafting being way too high - especially for bound items.

I have faithfully smashed and collect stuff for nearly a decade -

I copied my max level crafter over - who has been crafting for all my alts - pooling all the mats from all my alts...

I couldn't make any of the completed items I wanted with what I had on my crafter.

I will have a hard time making much of anything with these high cost of collectable requirements needed for crafting..

The high costs are hurting those with alts.
The high cost are hurting those new to the game.
The high cost are hurting those new to crafting.

5 -->1
15-->3

Divide by 5 at least for Bound Items.

Any changes to drop rates?

Unbound - still too high, but can be higher than bound, maybe X 2

I moved my Maxed Level crafter over and tried to make at few things I normally would - STR, CON, Vamp - I couldn't make anything due to missing mats..

I agree completely. I have a completionist with about 7 extra lives in him and 4 or 5 other toons with a few extra lives, plus 4-5 capped toons. Around 10 actively played characters. I have very few of the rare ingredients...playing since day 1 (plus beta) and I don't have enough collectibles to craft more than a few items at best. With new collectibles as a gate for almost all the better items...it's HIGHLY unlikely I'll be crafting the best gear anytime soon. The needs are just TOO high right now. Lowering the cost is a MUST to make it accessible to new players...or even players with just a year or two of experience. 10 of the most common collectibles is doable, 5 of the uncommons is extreme, more like 2 or 3 at worst, and anything more than 1 of the rares is just plain crazy. 11 years of playing and I have less than 20 of most every rare. That's 11 YEARS. Imagine a 1 year player, probably 1-5 at the best. Not to mention I am pretty OCD on collectibles collecting.

At this point a reduction in the mats needed is a MUST.

P.S.
Plus there is no way they will satisfy everyone. Playstyles are different for everyone and some people do NOT like anything they do to give us better options. There will always be challenge/grind/luck gates for this game...D&D has always been that way with the % loot tables. So yea...can't make everyone happy.

[LongshotBro]

Perhaps if you actually tried to understand what I say there wouldn't be confusion.

I don't need time sinks in a game. I don't need to kill time, I want to have fun. For me it is fun to try to acquire loot that is gated by difficulty, trying to come up with ways of getting past it. The loot is a simple carrot.

CC is not doing that at all, and a lot of the systems they are designing to give me stuff to do aren't like that that either. They are pure time sinks. ePLs, PLs, ENx20 raiding, and cannith crafting. All those are designing around beating content time and again and again. They are a pure time sink. Right now acquiring PEDs and what not is going to be a matter of spending the time IG doing that.

Yes, I tried CC, some years ago, out of curiosity. It looked complex and as such I thought there was some fun there. I didn't get too far because I soon realized that it simply was a pure grind. The new CC is the exact same thing as the old one, except that now it scales to a level that is useful for end game.

As for my participation in the current CC, as I said I am getting my lama client right now. But you and I know that the comment is a smoke screen. It does not matter if it is 5-10-15-20 PEDs. That's only a matter of how deep the grind is. But the grind is a grind because of the set up, not because it is 10 instead of 5.

You can tell me that I can ignore grind, but then you gate the majority of power behind it. So what is it, ignoring the character progression aspect of the game? That is the carrot that should be used to challenge me to play in high difficulties. And now that carrot is given away if you have the stomach to get through CC.

A game by it's very nature is a time sink, no?

As for crafting, in an mmo or otherwise, that's just a part of games that a lot of people enjoy. Some don't and don't have to invest time in it. At the highest levels, crafting should produce better stuff than RNG loot.

[LongshotBro]

On the collectibles issue: I have to comment that the game desperately needs a good bottomless Platinum sink. What if there was a vendor that sold eberron dragonshards (small/medium/large) at very high prices? I'm thinking something like 250K (small) 500K (medium) 750K(large). Said shards can be turned in for various goodies (already, like 20% xp pots), or used in crafting (with the new system). Having them available via a vendor would actually stimulate the AH, since undercutting the price of the vendor wouldn't be that hard, and it would suck massive amounts of platinum out of the system on an ongoing basis, making it actually valuable to a lot more people. You can also add some collectibles to the mysterious remnant dealer.

^^^

Yes, awesome idea! There will be the AH of course, but a reliable in-game vendor would be terrific. Maybe who also exchanges various collectibles as well. Put them in the Hall of Heroes.

[mons]

It took 180,000 shards to go from level 260 ---> 300 without using any boosters. Although its a bit high imo, it will give us all something to do for awhile.

[lostgunman]

oh, and apparently you cap out around 381ish? I can't get any higher without spending a TON of the newer collectibles (which are a PITA to get right now).

[PuppiesAndRainbows]

A lot of rare collectables are needed for crafting.

Question/suggestion

Can we trade junk collectables for useful collectables?

[slarden]

A lot of rare collectables are needed for crafting.

Question/suggestion

Can we trade junk collectables for useful collectables?

^^^^ yea I have kobold prayer beads and blades of the dark six for trade - 5 for 1 for anything would be nice.

For a blade being so rare with only 6 people using them - I sure do get alot. Fakes maybe?

[BigErkyKid]

I don't think making you happy is possible. You would find a reason to complain regardless of what they do.

Not at all. Here is a way to make me happy:

- Drop all previous ingredients from high end recipes. Let it be used on the old ones.
- Set extreme difficulty encounters as optionals in all new quests. Those encounters drop with high likelihood some collectibles.
- For some of the most powerful items, set the optionals in raids.

There. A system gated by difficulty, it now increases the value of optionals. You feel you are heading into a nightmarish challenge to obtain that awesome artifact to craft...

Much more satisfying that the current farmville.

[slarden]

Not at all. Here is a way to make me happy:

- Drop all previous ingredients from high end recipes. Let it be used on the old ones.
- Set extreme difficulty encounters as optionals in all new quests. Those encounters drop with high likelihood some collectibles.
- For some of the most powerful items, set the optionals in raids.

There. A system gated by difficulty, it now increases the value of optionals. You feel you are heading into a nightmarish challenge to obtain that awesome artifact to craft...

Much more satisfying that the current farmville.

Me and my seldom-used but handy army of 5 dual boxes would be fine with it. Personally though when the level cap was 20 the game had alot of more casual-friendly loot options including festivals and cannith crafting. Cannith Crafting should be casual-friendly at least for bta. Maybe implement your idea for unbound, but I am guessing it's too late for a major change like that.

Now they need to make festivals have current gear and the game will be more casual-friendly again.

[Wizza]

I already stated it in the first preview that we got: this system is WAY too grindy. Yes, it's powerful but put something good behind such a grind and I lose all the interest towards it. The total XP, the collectables and the amount of essences all need to be lowered IMHO, and we should be awarded with more Essenecs when deconstruction (only 30 or so right now).

With all the essences gathered in more than 4 years of playing, I can barely reach lv280 (I start from lv204). And that is not even HALFWAY through this insane grind. Lower the total XP from 650k to around 500k and it's something already.

Anyone knows how many essences we will loot from single chest?

EDIT: the idea of adding some Raid-only collectables sounds cool. Would give a reason to cycle through Raids. Please do not make them drop in specific Raids only (I dont wanna run CitW)