Petition to move the Monk Forum...

[Taimasan]

Yeah, they changed that in an update. At first sunder ingredients bonuses gave DC to QP. Granted it was a bit much at the time, so they replaced it with that. The problem is that after two failed attempts, you might as well just dps it down.

True. But as Sarlonians can back me up, I don't stay on one mob till its dead. If I enter with SF as I usually do follow up with a instantaneous QP, this is with the assumption this being the first pull. I leave the combat and draw in the stragglers(casters/archers) into the fray. I let the barbs and dps builds do the heavy lifting on the mob I would of most likely stunned. Then im on secondary targets outside of healing range opening with 3x earth to leave timer then qp again, which has a high chance of contact

It is in a tank role IMO. Not in the fact that I can stand toe to toe and soak up damage and stay alive(although I do have offspec for that when needed). But in the fact when I am in spec I can help control the flow and pace of combat. And at the pure sense that is why people who are responsible for the flow of combat often come by as control freaks.<- I am guilty


This is where the active combat system shines. I have to monitor the entire groups resources to know when I need to go away and let the group regroup, or shadowfade and bring in little by little. In contrast in *oW I have to have a certain loadout on my BM to tank raids with success but with DDO and a monk I can kite mobs if needed or make the run easier for other people. In turn makes it easier for me.

[Amideus]

True. But as Sarlonians can back me up, I don't stay on one mob till its dead. If I enter with SF as I usually do follow up with a instantaneous QP, this is with the assumption this being the first pull. I leave the combat and draw in the stragglers(casters/archers) into the fray. I let the barbs and dps builds do the heavy lifting on the mob I would of most likely stunned. Then im on secondary targets outside of healing range opening with 3x earth to leave timer then qp again, which has a high chance of contact

It is in a tank role IMO. Not in the fact that I can stand toe to toe and soak up damage and stay alive(although I do have offspec for that when needed). But in the fact when I am in spec I can help control the flow and pace of combat. And at the pure sense that is why people who are responsible for the flow of combat often come by as control freaks.<- I am guilty


This is where the active combat system shines. I have to monitor the entire groups resources to know when I need to go away and let the group regroup, or shadowfade and bring in little by little. In contrast in *oW I have to have a certain loadout on my BM to tank raids with success but with DDO and a monk I can kite mobs if needed or make the run easier for other people. In turn makes it easier for me.

I do this with my current CON Dwarf Swashbuckler build, though he's more of a dedicated offtank with higher than average damage. But then again, that's because all the newer and retuned enhancements for classes like bards and paladins are far and above classes that are still sitting on enhancements and feats tuned for level 20 cap.

I think the issue really is in the limitations of handwraps not only in game, but for the devs themselves. It seems every time a new enhancement hits or a new weapon effect comes into the game handwraps are bugged with it. Know the Angles is STILL bugged with wraps and that's been out for several updates. The neg levels from Henshin is still bugged, but thank God they finally added it to the known issues list. It was only reported for about 5 updates before they decided to acknowledge it. So really we just need a way for wraps to be reliable and effecient at base damage without the crit, because right now layered crit profiles and fort bypass is the endgame for nearly every melee. I think if we get fixed wraps and Legendary ToD rings that would go a LONG way to closing the gap in terms of end game, since there are no Green Steel wraps.

[Izdaari]

I played a pure monk to 28, and I loved it, still do. 32-pt halfling monk, a DEX/WIS Rockan Robin build, mostly dark path ninja/spy. But I had to admit that though still playable, it wasn't the best anymore. So I recently LR'd her to a version of Firewall's Snipercannon monkcher build, which has been very successful. It's a big improvement in DPS, survivability and fun. After the change, it hasn't taken me long to solo her to 30. I'd love to be a melee monk again, but I'm waiting for some changes.

[Robbenklopper]

I'd be interested to know if your Barb is THF or TWF. One of the pitfalls is comparing flat numbers of single hits without accounting for the TWF doublestrike and monk innate unarmed attack speed. While monks still deal **** for damage, I don't think they are too far off the other classes that having handwraps work with better crit profiles would put them in a better spot.

The Barb is THF. The base-damage of my unarmed Monk is pretty much the same like him, but as you know, unarmed doesn´t get all the candy from LD e.g. MS+LW and no candy like Barb get´s from all his PreEnhance.
For the crits, Fist of Iron for me is an important one to choose. But more important is to have VBV with the higher threat-range and to go for AC+Dodge+Ghostly+Displacement+Invisiblity, for me it IS reliable to get missed and benefit from it a lot.

[Robbenklopper]

... If I enter with SF as I usually do follow up with a instantaneous QP, this is with the assumption this being the first pull. ...

Go in first with Kukan-Do from ranged, prepare a finsiher like Shining star or a dark, then SF+QP and release the finisher. Sometimes I have the Feeling Will-Saves are easier to crack than Fort. I dunno if you already apply Kukan, but it´s a lot underestimated. Plus the fact you can use it while doing a jump and target the next without the Need to face to face immediatly, it´s very powerful in gameplay.

[Amideus]

The Barb is THF. The base-damage of my unarmed Monk is pretty much the same like him, but as you know, unarmed doesn´t get all the candy from LD e.g. MS+LW and no candy like Barb get´s from all his PreEnhance.
For the crits, Fist of Iron for me is an important one to choose. But more important is to have VBV with the higher threat-range and to go for AC+Dodge+Ghostly+Displacement+Invisiblity, for me it IS reliable to get missed and benefit from it a lot.

It's true that monks don't get the full treatment the other melee have in scaling abilities, something that will likely come through soon but they honestly aren't too bad in enhancements right now, it's the way wraps work. Though I don't have the numbers, I would wager that a full geared Stunning fist based monk is comparable to a THF barb, because THF is the lower end of the sustained damage on single target. However they have massive aoe clearing potential, which from what I have heard is the big thing in legendaries right now. However, much of what pushes the monk ahead of the barb in terms of single target is helpless damage, something you can't get against bosses which is the main bulk of single target damage requirements. Not to mention EVERYONE benefits from the helpless not just the monk even if the monk gets a tad big more from enhancements and twists.

That said, the real issue is the restrictions placed on wraps like you said. Less deal breaking, and more limiting than anything, without the ability to further expand the 19-20x3 crit threat of unarmed attacks, higher level weapon enhancements from burst weapons, on crit effects, and armor piercing does far less for monks which is sadly the main purpose of many melee builds right now. I'm not 100% sure, but I think my SWF swash can get 65% total armor piercing from weapons, enhancements, and feats without sacrificing anything while maintaining a 45%-65% attack speed, 60% double strike, and a 13-20x3 crit threat with a stacking threat when I don't crit until I eventually do.

Again, if we got Legendary ToD style rings from an update that would only work with unarmed we could get something that would deal an incredibly large amount of upfront damage on each hit which could let us ignore crit and push for attack speed and double strike instead something we can get a lot easier. I don't necessarily think monk HAVE to conform to the armor piercing crit threat expanding style of melee play, since unarmed is unique to them and most threat improvement options don't really work, the best way to fix their dps is to add in monk specific gear that bridges the gap for their non-crit attacks.

As for VBV, it is unreliable in practice. I will give you the reasons why:
VBV triggers when an enemy attacks YOU and MISSES only. This means that you must stack defensive stats to a higher degree to increase the benefit, potentially lowering damage output.
VBV assumes you are being attacked in the first place. If you are a melee you might get hit some of the time, but your focus as a melee damage dealer should be NOT being the primary target if you can help it.
VBV stacks up and expends itself when you crit. However the rate of attack and attack speed that a monk has will far outclass the attack speed of enemies, and unless you have a hoard on you it's unlikely you will stack quickly.
VBV is meant for a tanky character to increase their damage potential to compensate for having more defenses. It is not meant for an unarmed damage dealer to correct the lack of crit threat they have through other effects.

VBV is a great enhancement, I love it. I take it on nearly every monk life when I go shintao, no doubt about that. But it is NOT a way to fix the threat range issues for monks, it's not built that way.

[Amideus]

So I ran through the numbers again just to be sure, and I am not certain I didn't miss anything, but I think I got it down to brass tax on this one:
Quivering Palm Theoretical DC for a Dwarf 16M/4F Build

DC=
10 Base
8 Monk Levels
28 Wisdom
3 GMoF
6 LD Twist
3 Dwarf Tactics
3 Fighter Tactics
3 Fighter Past Lives
2 Fighter Tactician
2 Epic Tactician
4 Scion of the Astral Plane
5/7 Insightful Combat / Know the Angles
1? Guild


72 - DC without Guild or Insight bonuses
73 - DC assuming Guild works
78 - DC assuming Guild + Sightful Combat
80 - DC assuming Guild + Know the Angles

How I got my Wisdom:
Build Wisdom theoretical cap:
66 = 28 Modifier

18 Base
6 Tome
7 Levels
12 Enhancement
4 Insight
1 Exceptional
2 Guild
6 GMoF
3 Monk Enhancements
2 Potion
2 Litany
2 Completionist
1 Twist

Intelligence for KtA
Build Intellegence Cap:
41 = 15 Modifier

10 Base
6 Tome
12 Enhancement
4 Insight
1 Exceptional
2 Guild
2 Litany
2 Completionist
2 Potion

If you can get an 80 with KtA and guild bonuses assuming Litany and Completionist(which I don't have) that would not be bad at all, considering that after two fails you can hit 88 DC.
For Stunning Fist you would add a full 15 to the cap, getting up to 95 DC for the stun which isn't shabby at all.

It's still afar cry from having a 90 DC on Quivering Palm at all times as we used to have with the old QP before the change. It was said that they would be watching QP with the stacking bonus to see how it went, but with everyone completely abandoning that build post change and moving to ranged or splash classes mainly and QP being completely useless again I think they should at least tweak it. A +5 stacking on failed would put the DC back up to where it would have been if they left the Sunder bonuses on it assuming a +10 ring or some other piece of equipment. I guess I am just kinda ****ed over the treatment of QP in the nerfs when the words used were "We will be monitoring the new DC closely" in the effect that they would either increase of decrease it depending on the impact. Which leads me to believe they want QP to be pretty much useless for monks and is only something you spam haphazardly when you have extra Ki and hope for a hit.

[jalont]

I duoed EE ToEE part one and two the other day with a fist monk that stepped in the middle of all those mobs every single time and just cut through them like butter, outkilling and outsurviving my thrower. Monks are fine.

[Amideus]

I duoed EE ToEE part one and two the other day with a fist monk that stepped in the middle of all those mobs every single time and just cut through them like butter, outkilling and outsurviving my thrower. Monks are fine.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't take conjecture of a second hand account of someone as proof that monks are "fine"

Because outside of the tree builds that rely on warlock levels (and I think are bugged not 100% on that) monks aren't really fine. There's a lot to be desired from the class.

[jalont]

You'll have to excuse me if I don't take conjecture of a second hand account of someone as proof that monks are "fine"

Because outside of the tree builds that rely on warlock levels (and I think are bugged not 100% on that) monks aren't really fine. There's a lot to be desired from the class.

If a (what I consider to be) average player can do this on a monk in rebalanced EE, then they are fine. Period. They may even need a nerf. No one should be able to stand in the middle of LE (which ToEE EE is supposed to be) and take all that damage.

[Robbenklopper]

True true.

And about items / Quivering Palm: Please ask the question why there´s "Asassinate" and "Insightful Asassinate" but no alike "Quivering Palm" and "Insightful Quivering Palm".

[Cordovan]

The classes fall within the sub-forums based on their placement in Character Select, so the choices are Melee, Specialist, or Arcane. Since Monk falls under Melee, that's where it goes on the forums too. There is no ranged section. A case could be made that monks could qualify for Specialist, but that's not how it is in-game.

[Robbenklopper]

Well ... i guess you forgot your insightful Googles of sarcasm to put on?

[Amideus]

If a (what I consider to be) average player can do this on a monk in rebalanced EE, then they are fine. Period. They may even need a nerf. No one should be able to stand in the middle of LE (which ToEE EE is supposed to be) and take all that damage.

I can promise you that anything a monk can tank, a barbarian, paladin, fighter, and possibly even a well build swash can do JUST AS EASILY and probably far more efficiently. Even Warlocks have better melee survivability. And again, not saying anything necessarily against your account, but there's no numbers being traded here and no statements on what was being used so it's just conjecture that you saw someone using a monk unarmed and it came off as OP while watching it.

[Amideus]

The classes fall within the sub-forums based on their placement in Character Select, so the choices are Melee, Specialist, or Arcane. Since Monk falls under Melee, that's where it goes on the forums too. There is no ranged section. A case could be made that monks could qualify for Specialist, but that's not how it is in-game.

This wins my thread. I was being sarcastic since nearly every build popping up that tries to do melee is using something that doesn't work or is bugged with wraps, and everything else is "moncher"

[Amideus]

True true.

And about items / Quivering Palm: Please ask the question why there´s "Asassinate" and "Insightful Asassinate" but no alike "Quivering Palm" and "Insightful Quivering Palm".

This is most likely related to the fact that Assassinate doesn't gain bonuses from tactical feat increases, so I would assume it is even less reliable as a DC source than QP.

[Robbenklopper]

It´s hard to believe it was a pure Monk whereas splits and exploits seem to be more possible to cut through them like "butter".

[jalont]

It´s hard to believe it was a pure Monk whereas splits and exploits seem to be more possible to cut through them like "butter".

I'm not sure about exploits. I don't know any monk exploits except for Tree, but they weren't using tree.

[Robbenklopper]

This is most likely related to the fact that Assassinate doesn't gain bonuses from tactical feat increases, so I would assume it is even less reliable as a DC source than QP.

Can´t say too and would Need to have a pro of that class in talk to know about DCs for asassins, it just came to my mind to ask about and remembered a friend never having issues to asassinate and is no 1st Hand data.

[Robbenklopper]

Btw. do Monks have any "Voice" in the DDO Council 2015/2016? Are Monks a Topic that is discussed about besides the offical annoucement we read about that "they are planning" something? Maybe one can say, coz beating the dead horse on the Forums won´t Change something, but still Needs to be coz one can feel "not been noticed" (Although Cordovan did, but wasn´t wearing Googles) and is not just for killing time while at work.