Devs - this is why paladins don't need the best DPS

[Chai]

A (major) bugfix and a token nerf? Again, be careful what you construct an implication from, this one is pretty self-serving and without much evidence...

The evidence is in the release notes. Both nerfs - not referring to the bug fix.

[elkorm]

Seriously? Just play the class you enjoy.

THIS. Enuff said.

Elk

[Bluegirl_Two]

You were talking about cleric and PM auras and comparing them to spells.

I don't see much difference. Getting back HP is getting back HP, the details of how or why seem fairly irrelevant. But, mostly, I can't figure how or why this is so important to you when you recently posted that you only build for epic hard content.

How in the world could it possibly matter if the height of your ambition is elite hard?

And, when the players themselves (the ones actually on the servers, not the ones posting in the forums) don't seem to be overly enamored with paladin how in the world could it possibly matter that some of the players might gain sufficient synergy from all possible sources to nearly stand alone regardless of content?

It seems to me that either you lied in the previous thread where you mentioned only being concerned with epic hard or you are fabricating a conflict now which, in any case, seems to exist only in your mind and not in the builds of the players themselves.

[Tinco]

So I find it incredibly hard to believe that the players are asking for flavor builds to disappear -- even in the forums.

Before we start this, what is the definition of a flavor build? And if you're going to argue in the direction of 'non-optimal', what are reasonable upper and lower bounds for that?

[Sehenry03]

And, when the players themselves (the ones actually on the servers, not the ones posting in the forums) don't seem to be overly enamored with paladin how in the world could it possibly matter that some of the players might gain sufficient synergy from all possible sources to nearly stand alone regardless of content?

I put up LFM's every morning and evening on Sarlona. I have to agree with this statement on this for sure...I do not see a sudden influx of Pally's or Bards. I literally MIGHT have 1 of each in the party at a time.

[Thrudh]

I don't see much difference. Getting back HP is getting back HP, the details of how or why seem fairly irrelevant.

Really? Getting to work 15 miles away... I guess it doesn't matter if I walk or if I drive... I still get there... the details seem fairly irrelevant.

But, mostly, I can't figure how or why this is so important to you when you recently posted that you only build for epic hard content.

I only build to solo epic hard content (and the easier epic elites - I usually do the Eveningstar sagas on elite, and will solo those on epic elite if my LFM does not fill)

But I play end-game epic elite, but only in groups...

Does that make my feedback worthless?

It seems to me that either you lied in the previous thread where you mentioned only being concerned with epic hard or you are fabricating a conflict now which, in any case, seems to exist only in your mind and not in the builds of the players themselves.

Those are pretty harsh words, after I thought we were having some good conversations before...

Anyway.. here's my position...

Offense, Defense, self-healing

Class 1 - 10,5,3
Class 2 - 6,6,6
Class 3 - 7,2,8
Class 4 - 3,9,8


There should never be a class that is 10,9,9

This is game-balance 101.

[walkin_dude]

Nope.

Even the earliest versions of D&D had casters many times more powerful than melee.

The balance there was the requirement to pre-select spells and the very limited number of spells/day. Also, if some nasty critter got all up in the mage's grill, he'd probably be appreciative of help, since he was going to have trouble casting while that critter was whooping up on him.

[Thar]

Check out the thread where the guy throws down 1200 point CSWs with a 3000 CSW crit...

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457808-3k-csw

Heal scrolls (with failed concentration checks) don't really match do they?

so can anyone else with csw and the same equipment/amp. your point? clerics have been doing 1000 pt cure light heals BEFORE the heal amp changes. Pally isn't going to have the spell points to do that for long and if it's no different than any other caster class (with destiny's) then unless you remove all heal amp you can't really accomplish much here. pally's aren't the problem, devs are mid updating all the classes... if this all occured in one update we wouldn't be complaining as much. you should go look at who can't and what is being done to make that class better. ie druid...

[Chai]

The balance there was the requirement to pre-select spells and the very limited number of spells/day. Also, if some nasty critter got all up in the mage's grill, he'd probably be appreciative of help, since he was going to have trouble casting while that critter was whooping up on him.

In P&P the DM throws 4 or 5 encounters at the party before they rested. The "limited" number of spells per day wasn't very limited around level 6 and beyond. Not to mention players have wands and scrolls which aren't nearly as useless as they are in DDO. Its not like DDO where we have mana bars and can kill off hundreds of monsters in one quest.

Mages getting into threat range were either making bad play decisions or their DM wanted to kill them off. Theres mage hand for touch spells so getting into melee threat for that isn't necessary. By mid level wizards are flying, improved invis which doesn't break when they attack, mob has to guess which cube they are in then has to roll 50% miss chance due to improved invis, then has to beat AC (which can be as high as any tank class) then has to get through stone skin....

The biggest threat to PC wizards, is enemy wizards. That was the one major balancing factor. The DM can use the same classes the players can.

[Chai]

Anyway.. here's my position...

Offense, Defense, self-healing

before enhancement pass and revamps the classes that matched this were...
Class 1 - 10,5,3 kensai fighter
Class 2 - 6,6,6 bard
Class 3 - 7,2,8 wizard, WF sorc
Class 4 - 3,9,8 paladin


There should never be a class that is 10,9,9

This is game-balance 101.

The players have themselves to blame for why it isn't this way. Years and years of complaining about having to wait for 30 minutes to get groups, lobbying for being able to play their cleric like a sorc and not having to heal other players, and solely valuing DPS above all else, is why the game is now being balanced around homogenized 10,9,9 style revamped classes.

And then with the ability to multiclass, even if there isn't 10,9,9 classes, there can still be 10,9,9 multi class builds. Every single demand for a nerf in the past merely served to put a different version of that on the throne. People demanded nerfs of 10,9,9 and dethroned it only to watch a bunch of folks TR and LR into 9,10,9 builds.

What you refer to is game balance 101 for wow clones where players cannot build outside their class and balance can be easily restricted. In DDO players can overcome most restrictions by using multiclassing to grab up synergizing abilities which will cover up any class based weakness. While the pure kensai may have been 10,5,3 the centered kensai would be 10,9,6 pre enhancement pass. The pre enhancement pass juggernaut build would be 8,8,8

[Angelic-council]

Who would take empower healing spell, empower spell, maximize spell, human heal amp tier 3 on paladin - and equip all the best heal amp item, activate divine crusader zeal, activate other powerful heal bonus spell/clicky and everything else. Also a bug I hear? this is just an experiment, arguing about DPS doesn't matter here. I can over heal myself on any class, I just have to prepare and take a perfect screen shot. But what does this do in real combat situation.

[Thrudh]

In P&P the DM throws 4 or 5 encounters at the party before they rested. The "limited" number of spells per day wasn't very limited around level 6 and beyond. Not to mention players have wands and scrolls which aren't nearly as useless as they are in DDO. Its not like DDO where we have mana bars and can kill off hundreds of monsters in one quest.

You had a very bad DM. Sorry you missed out on a good PnP experience.

Ah, the days of deciding whether to use that last fireball spell or to save it in case something WORSE was around the corner. That question would get the whole group talking...

[Chai]

You had a very bad DM. Sorry you missed out on a good PnP experience.

The rules I referred to are in the DM guide. I had the correct P&P experience. Ive also been play testing each edition since 2nd, so Im pretty sure the folks who ask me to do so understand the quality of our groups feed back as we continue to be invited back each time they need more play testing.

Ah, the days of deciding whether to use that last fireball spell or to save it in case something WORSE was around the corner. That question would get the whole group talking...

That was called the last encounter. If a group then presses onward when their resources are depleted, like I explained before, DM is trying to kill the group, or the players made a bad decision. The DM can kill the group when forced cooperation isn't being observed. The wizard doing all the work =/= forced cooperation. This doesn't mean the classes in P&P are anywhere near balanced. It just means its on the DM to create and modify the situation so it requires the party to act together to get through whatever is sent their way. Maybe the fighter baited the mobs all into the room where the AOE of the fireball could get them all rather than some. This required the rogue taking down the traps which the monsters tried to bait the players into. Since the rogue screwed one up and got poisoned, the cleric had to remove the poison and cure the damage.....Forced cooperation =/= class balance.

With spells like rope trick and higher level equivalents, the DM didn't really always get to be the sole decider of when the players got to rest.

DDO used to have forced cooperation which had nothing to do with class balance. A good example of this is when fighters and paladins would shield block a corner off while the casters magic missile the STK boss to death. The casters were the ones doing the killing, but the fighter and paladin shield wall was the only thing keeping those casters alive. The clerics heals were keeping the tanks alive. That's forced cooperation. Another example would be tempest spine, where the blackguards had AC that could be hit only when rolling high numbers - so the tanks shield walled the doors and the casters burned the mobs down with firewalls - that's forced cooperation - which has nothing to do with class balance. Those fighters were not coming remotely close to killing the same numbers of mobs per time unit as casters, yet they had value because it allowed the casters to strike with impunity disallowing the mobs to get into squishy casters threat range while they rained their spells down on the drow and giants.

[Bloodskittle]

I'm with Overvaan and Eth on this one, Barbarian is better dps than wolf, arguably best in game with the exception of perhaps Tree builds, but I've not tested nor seen that tested.

[Munkenmo]

Qual, i created that druid build that you are refering to

Really?

[BigErkyKid]

Forced cooperation =/= class balance.

How do you define power and balance when several archetypes are needed for success?

This is not a trivial question and has been studied in game theory, for instance.

See this for one such concept HERE.

As long as several classes were actually needed often enough, I'd be mostly happy. But since DDO moved away from that classes need to be sufficiently self contained and similar in the overall balance of defense + heals / offense. This is what the game has come down to, let's not pretend otherwise.

[Blackheartox]

Really?

With your and rubbis help

[Eth]

I saw that. Honestly, if you have the time the spreadsheet version would help.

First, because the game is heavily focused on packs of enemies. Hence attack speed and DBs, the biggest PLUS on the rogue side do not matter so much most of the time (additionally attack speed is lost on moving). Add to that that we have twitching now, but not for a staff build. Second, because TA have the hardest time landing sneak attack.

Keep in mind a TA can hit 2 enemies at a time.
Sneak attack is a problem because all the q-staffs are bad.
TAs really need a fort bypass, improved deception q-staff with a base damage + crit. profile of bone crusher.
TF Q-staffs just lack to much base damage.

[BigErkyKid]

Keep in mind a TA can hit 2 enemies at a time.
Sneak attack is a problem because all the q-staffs are bad.
TAs really need a fort bypass, improved deception q-staff with a base damage + crit. profile of bone crusher.
TF Q-staffs just lack to much base damage.

If you take the capstone and tumble around...who builds pure TA? Who will build them even after the slight upgrade? Attack speed is not that hot for THF staff since you don't get much of an edge compared to twitching. Finally DBs is alright but does not proc on cleaves...not the hottest thing in the game. I'd prefer the DPS equivalent in base damage or crit profiles ANY time.

I honestly would not want the upgrade to be item based, even though good q staffs are needed. This could be easily built into the tree by adding +W to the tier 5 ability or even the cores.

[Bluegirl_Two]

Anyway.. here's my position...

Offense, Defense, self-healing

Class 1 - 10,5,3
Class 2 - 6,6,6
Class 3 - 7,2,8
Class 4 - 3,9,8


There should never be a class that is 10,9,9

This is game-balance 101.

I did a search of the internet looking for "game-balance 101" and found this interesting article on Wikipedia. Nothing in the article mentions offense/defense/self-healing.

I am afraid that this measure of balance exists only in your imagination. Balance has to do with making a game desirable to the players. It includes the idea of creating an environment where the odds provide enough challenge. And, it has to do with beating the environment.

Comparative equalities among or between character classes is not a measure of balance.

It did strike me that one method of balance is to utilize a gamemaster and that D&D is explicitly mentioned in the article. Since DDO is a type of D&D with Turbine as the gamemaster the balancing that goes on is to ensure that no single class or play style is dominant.

Once more, I'll refer you to the game itself. No single class is dominant. Therefore, by definition, the game is balanced. Your artificial criteria is not game-balance 101. It is just your personal criteria. It has no actual merit because it is an entirely false premise.