Rogue - Assassin Changes

[draven1]

I've said all along that all that is really needed (imo) is a couple points. When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

Look back and you will see that I said a +6 item OR +1/2 augments would be good for gear. I've said that adding 1 or 2 points in the tree would be okay, but not more. I understand the rare space that you and CThru are trying to protect.

Casters got +12 DC from gears, not just +8.
You missed +1 DC from shadow robe, +1 DC from TF Staff or alchemical +2 wis one haneded weapon, +2 DC from Epic Deific Diadem.

so
..............caster.........assassin
............+12...........+4 totals


Even more for divines, exalted angel got buff(universal +3 DC).
............divine.........assassin
...........+15............+4 totals

Rage(!) can gives +1 more DC for divine(Acute Instinct)
............divine.........assassin
...........+16............+4 totals

I am sure turbine hate assassins

[Bobby88888]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Adding more DC is something the class really needs to NOT happen but if you are dead set on it +1, 2 tops in capstone and no new items except at lvl cap 30 based on the game then. Making capstone +4 int/+0 dex is most I think should be done but leaving as is is good. Though letting you use some of the cool things from SD by freeing up 4 ED points isn't bad either (But really 1 ED point worth far more than 2 AP should be 1 each. sorry for off topic) but tread with care here.

What we do need though is SOME of the stuff from the following list (the rest would be some good ideas for SD ED revamp which hopefully comes along soon) but all are possibilities of cool/flavourful abilities for assassin I think. Gives a moderate DPS boost but already have lowest DPS of the rogues so won't hurt, bypass various enemy defences - anticipating their movements/finding chinks in armour, sneak speed for QoL, PRR in very small amount for survival.

-Faster sneak speed: To keep up better while sneaking, better yet roll back all the speed increases to everything and cap most at 10% but not likely to happen so better sneak speed.

-Fort bypass: Though we possibly have enough already and making it too easily accessible shouldn't be done, a little in the capstone would fit
-SA immunity bypass: Assassin's Trick is probably enough though as is.
-Dodge bypass: This is something that would be good and fits thematically, and with champions being able to get dodge would be handy in small amounts. On that note adding more enemies with dodge would be cool, I really like how champs can throw that curveball at you (unless your in Shiradi)
-PRR bypass: Seems more like something to chuck on great crossbows but also fits the assassin well.
-Assassinate: Bypasses DB, or can hit one more target, or can bypass EH/EE orange named DB only (the innate given for those diffs only, not other versions), etc.

-More SA dice: Mech get 4/5 in their tree tied into xbows, when combined with assassin they can exceed assassin SA dice while assassin can't dip over there for them. This is a rogue ability but assassins are the specialists there to me and I think this should be rectified.
-SA crits: Crits multiplier for SA damage on all crits or even just vorpals with large multiplier.
-Scaling SA damage: Via MP, static increase or scales from a stat.
-Increase SA die size: d8s, more?
-Reach: Increase reach with Daggers and Kukris *nice spot for this is Knife Spec but didn't include below.
-Int to damage: Staying in harper is fine though putting in a high core opens up a few options with spending APs outside of the 41 assassin 30 harper 8 mech set-up.

-PRR: small bonus, not much but since Poison weakness is 1 mob at a time and not 100% uptime unless CDs are changed a little more to help feels ok but not too much. ~10 tops.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how would I incorporate some of those ideas?
listing changes only, if not listed not changed. This is assuming all changes in OP are done too unless rechanged here.

Core 1: Gain +1 SA die per core OR 1% dodge bypass per core (or add less SA dice but spread over the higher cores more than the lower ones to prevent dipping for big bonuses eg. 2, 4, 5 and 6. OR possibly move faster sneaking to cores if wanting to scale higher but not all at level 1 (Still need more SA dice spread over higher cores. Core 2,4,5 and 6)
Core 5: Lethality: On your SA damage is now effected by crits for 2x multiplier and vorpals for 3x multiplier (or just straight 2x for crits and vorps, or weapon multiplier but some may say is too much)
Capstone: One Assassinate idea from above, Remove Reflex bonus. (NOTE: If you do put +4 int on make as well as not instead of the changes I suggest here.

Tier 1: Stealthy: 30/60/90% sneak speed boost or incorporate into cores.
Tier 1: Poison Strikes: Drop AP cost to 1 and consider adjusting CD down to 10 seconds at least so can keep Assassin's Mark up constantly.

Tier 4: Killer: Gain a stack if something under effect of your Assassin's Mark dies. Remove when you kill gain a stack. *leave CD on poison Strikes alone with this option. (OR make stacks fade 1 or 2 at a time)
Tier 4: Weakening Strikes: If your doing the Rog level increasing reduction please add to OP to clarify otherwise I recommend that be added.

Tier 5: Measure the Foe: Make stacks fade 1 by 1 but with all going a little faster (say CThru's 6s per stack) or a 10s 1st stack with 3s each other stack.
Tier 5: Light Armour Mastery: PRR = 4/8/12 or 5/10/15 (assuming base PRR of armour changes go through for the -5 PRR ie +7 or 10 PRR here vs +1 proposed.)

Note: all the cores changes being the most important, cores are really lacking for the most part still. Fixing lethality and capstone and the SA dice imbalance introduced with Mech are top on my list, that will make me happy. SA speed also make me very happy but I can live without it, I have done for some time now and is only a QoL change needed in light of giving everyone else faster speeds.

Other than that thank you very much Sev for working on this and keeping us in the loop and asking our opinions.

EDIT: forgot MP got put on capstone already so removed it from suggestions *duh*

[Ayseifn]

Neglecting stat bonuses is fine because it'll generally be the same for both but skipping out on leveling based DCs skews things and doesn't show the whole picture.

..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
[b]............+0-2*.........+5 from taking 5 more rog levels
level 20........................+2
................+x**...........+9***
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

* Add one to two depending on class because of heighten
** Add whatever your ED gives you, so someone better versed in making playable DC casters please add that in
*** 3 from 6 Int and 6 from Stealthy

Assassinate is also 30+ int mod +item while spells technically start lower but have a lot more things that can add to it. What assassinate needs is more things to supplement it at higher levels, so when Sev asked really early on if just adding a few extra +DC items would help I think he already nailed it. Just add in exceptional assassinate augs into heroic and epic ToEE and then maybe buff the +2's and +4's we already have and call it a day, especially the +4's as it's only really in later game that the DC really falls off(level 29 quests and up?).

[depositbox]

Your post proves that level 20-25 DC's are really easy to achieve. I can go into GH at level 20 and have the highest kill count for most groups.

then why do you take an hour to solo detour at cap? 0o

[slarden]

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game right now. It takes understanding of what mobs do, what other players do, timing and position, risk vs reward, and gear and build decisions. Look at other people wanting a higher DC to solo (without gear) that refuse to use traps. These people are not going to be able to solo EE if you give them a DC 200 assassinate. They will need 100 more PRR, 400 more HP, cc, and heals to have a chance soloing EE content. All of this needs to be provided for free because these players don't want to go get gear. These players should just roll up a bard.

Assassin is an example how all builds should work, including learning how to play through progressively harder content while acquiring gear, and making very important build choices. Do you take 30 melee action power from TA, or improved scroll healing from mechanic? Do you max int or go for melee power? Do you build usable Will saves with slippery mind? Do you grab defensive roll from acrobat? What race and racial AP do you grab, and what are you willing to give up for these?

Players unwilling to take advantage of the abilities assassins do have should not be dictating changes to a class that works wonderfully. Every new piece of gear you find will make you that much better.

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.

I don't agree that all builds should work the same way as assassin. I am glad the game has some easy-button builds for newer and casual players that can't make the time commitment. Swashbuckler, Paladin, Barbarian and Shiradi casters can be effective in EE content with minimal grinding for gear and past lifes. I take advantage of some of those easier builds with my less-accomplished alts I play to try out different builds. Assassin is a very advanced build and is that way quite by accident it seems. However, it does make Assassin fun and challenging to learn and play. I think it's good for the game to have some advanced builds like Assassin and DC caster. I hope assassin stays that way.

With that said, I disagree with itemization being the solution for DC balancing as content changes DC requirements. Every time new content comes out it will require regearing. I did get my Mythic Muffled Veneer, but I went to extreme lengths to get it. I had a dwarf barbarian sitting at 25 that did nothing since U14 except run impossible demands for guild renown while filling out destiny trees. I retooled him into an occult slayer barbarian so I could easily farm EE GOP. It worked - I spent more time leveling up and gearing my barbarian than it took to get the helm lol. Here is the thing - I didn't care about the +2 extra assassinate - I was mainly interested in the 9% doublestrike since the epic version had no doublestrike.

So now if our DCs are a bit low they are going to put out a cloak with +8 assassinate? I don't like that much at all. I think the reason this DC discussion has so much disagreement is because assassins are in the same place as PMs are where their DC works most places and isn't no-fail in a few higher level quests. New content could make their skill obsolete as it did when eGH first came out.

If the devs have a rough idea what save requirements will be when eAmarath and eVale come out I am fine if they buff the core a bit to account for that. Alternatively they should address it through augments so complete re-gearing isn't necessary every time they decide rogue DCs need a boost.

Constant re-gearing drives people to abandon end game and TR their character because even though each past life benefit is small they do add up over time and they never become obsolete even if they become less significant. It sounds like the mythic muffled veneer will be obsolete sooner rather than later which is fine, but it does make me think maybe I should just get some barbarian past lifes instead of running temple of elemental evil because that gear will be obsolete as soon eAmarath comes out and I'll have to completely regear.

Solving DC issues through itemization means don't bother with gear until the level cap is 30 in December or so.

I am not jealous of anyone or unwilling to take advantage of abilities. Before anyone claims I am a weak player, etc. I've played my rogue more than any character since Harper tree came out. When I saw that on Lam that was when I decided to take him off the bench. I took the easy button and did 12 iconic lifes once every 3 days to get completionist and have been etring about twice a week on average for several months. I farmed out the mythic muffled veneer, epic littany, shroud of ardent, epic quiver of alacrity, jibbers blade, mysterious bauble, a tier 3 thunderforged dagger and multiple intricate field optic int +3 because nobody was trading those and more. I am not a casual player asking for an easy button I just don't like the idea of itemization being the solution for DC. I think my existing build is as good or better than any I've seen in the forums except I did borrow a few good ideas I saw while browsing those. So no I am not asking for an easy button. I am not lazy and I am not unskilled.

My DC is sitting at a 74 right now as a sun elf which equals my PM's necro DC (I would consider my PM to be main character). That is without yugo pots or any temporary buffs and with only 4 points of int in Shadowdancer. With yugo pots, 6 points of int in Shadow dancer and 1 twist I can get my DC to 77, but it's not worth what I would be losing.

I run with a very diverse group that includes casual face-to-face friends and family in my guild as well as a few online friends in my guild. I also run with some extreme zergers/grinders that are among the most elite players on Sarlona. I think the game needs to work for both groups. Re-gearing is especially hard on casual players that play once or twice a week. This is why I hope the devs don't balance DC solely through itemization. If changing the core isn't done - please make assassinate bonus auguments available with maybe 2 less bonus than the best items in the game so playing end game isn't about full regearing every release.

[slarden]

then why do you take an hour to solo detour at cap? 0o

Probably because he isn't using a dual box that allows him to run to the end fight with no fighting other than clearing one group of mobs near the start and one orange named drow.

[Full_Bleed]

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.

I get that there is a school of players that wish all classes were "balanced" just like assassins. But they aren't. And they are not going to be.

Again, assassins aren't playing in a vacuum. They're playing with Bards, Paladins, Barbarians, Sorcs, Monks, and all the other classes that are about to get revamped. Making their hill harder to climb just because a certain school likes it that way isn't good game design. It's terribly uneven and inconsistent design.

I honestly think very well-geared and solo players are particularly numerous in that school as well, so I hope their input is looked at with the proper light.

I also find it disingenuous to act like once an assassin gets a respectable assassinate DC that they are *done*. They have at least 14 other seconds in every 15 to build on... and there is a LOT to build on in that space (not to mention all the *space* required to make that 1 second actually count... avoiding archers and aoe's, using terrain, staying hidden, catching unaware moving targets, cherry picking ideal targets, navigating traffic, etc, etc, etc.) The notion that the DC is what MAKES an assassin is silly. It's just the thing that can singularly obstruct one of the coolest parts of being one.

[Ayseifn]

If you buff assassin cores or whatever to compensate for their lack of end game DCs then they'll over perform in heroic and low level epics, get almost zero progression from 20-30 and at cap have a viable DC. Honestly, after hitting level 20 it'll just feel like your DC is going backwards.

On a melee that uses tactics I get +blah from a stat items(sometimes 2-3 stats depending on build), +2 from a feat, +blah from better stun/trip/sunder items and also +blah from exceptional stat/tactics items, and casters also get some good scaling with their shtick. For assassins it's just +2 item, +whatever for int items and maybe a feat burned on +1 int.

Solving DC issues through itemization means don't bother with gear until the level cap is 30 in December or so.

Kind of already resigned myself to this fate, ever since eGH loot just keeps getting better and making even 3 month old stuff junk.

[CThruTheEgo]

I prefer a small timer drop over a DC bump.

Can you elaborate on this? I could get behind an idea like this, but what exactly would you suggest?

Maybe they get a spell save bonus. Is someone saying your wrong because they are using necro spells?

No, they do not get a spell save bonus and I don't know Monkey-Boy's motivation for saying he doesn't believe me. He has not responded with anything to counter my claim, so there's no way to know his reasoning.

DC Monks & Clerics, for example, don't take Wisdom for the will save.

LOL! Bad example. Wis based monks also do garbage damage. There is not nearly the same level of synergy there as an int based assassin.

I could also nit-pick and say that you might be reaching more than a little, too. Assassins don't need that much INT for traps. Everyone doesn't have Harper. And most would agree that the skillpoints certainly aren't "needed" or the driving force behind raising the relevant "DCs".

Skills are certainly not a main motivator for going int based. I was merely pointing out the synergies. And anyone who is serious about playing an assassin at endgame, should spend the measly 400 TP for harper. It's just that good and you can easily get those TP through favor.

When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

There is also a difference in the base DC formula. Spells are, at most, 19 from 10 + spell level, while assassinate is 30 (assuming pure) from 10 + rogue level. So I think it's fairly balanced in that regard. I also realize this limits multiclass options, however, but that doesn't concern me personally.

[nokowi]

1. INT based assassins I am familiar with.
2. I had a dex based assassin a long time ago. Cthru convinced me to go INT based instead (even before harper.) Can you elaborate on the existing DEX based assassins?
3. Can you please elaborate on the build that assassinates and runs in Fury of the Wild?
4. Same, but for LD.
5. Assassinate is a melee only skill.

Yes, people can use the assassin tree and not use the T5 assassinate ability. While I understand that the revamp is about more than one enhancement, all DC discussions are about that one enhancement. When I say that adding DC will open up epic destinies, I mean WHILE assassinating. I already ran a pure rogue assassin in DC; I just didn't bother to assassinate.

On the whole, I would argue that assassinate assassins have ONE build: INT based in Shadow Dancer.

I've said all along that all that is really needed (imo) is a couple points. When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

Look back and you will see that I said a +6 item OR +1/2 augments would be good for gear. I've said that adding 1 or 2 points in the tree would be okay, but not more. I understand the rare space that you and CThru are trying to protect.

I also understand when some people want options for multi-class assassinates and other options and so I get involved there and discuss ideas.

Going back farther, I've been involved in the discussions about making stealth better. I even presented an idea for critical success and failure on assassinates. I love this class, but it needs help. Some help has arrived (agro is better) and some is coming, so I am hopeful.

p.s. slow moving stealth assassins already have no chance to assassinate in most groups. That's another thing I've lobbied for: sneak speed. Very early in this thread I even discussed allowing sneak speed to exceed normal speed. Its the only way to keep up with all the classes that have movement speed buffs. The only thing an assassin can do today is run with the group, pick an outlier that didn't die in the initial energy burst/dragon breath attacks and drop into to assassinate it while it moves to the intimi-paladin with 25% of its health left (and this means being in front of it because it is moving and the hit box is so small you have to anticipate the attack so that the server believes you were close enough.)

I still beat 95%+ of group players using a slow moving assassin on EE content. Your description seems to show that you don't understand the best way to play assassin - at the front of the group killing mobs at 100% health, not picking up leftovers. I had about 20 people send me tells in U22 when assassinate was broken because I was still destroying kill counts in groups. You're statements are incorrect if you are talking about EE content. You may not be knowledgeable of this because you have chosen not to build assassin DC. This is a player choice, not a design problem with the assassin prestige class. I can back up my statements by taking some kill count screenshots if required by the players in this thread.

Assassin DC is not going to make assassin more effective for skilled players. The limitation is the 15 second timer, not the DC. Assassins are both very powerful (while in stealth) and very weak (while out of stealth). Giving multi-class characters assassinate will give the one powerful ability assassins have to players without those weaknesses. Good bye stealth rogue. It would be a shame to lose the one pure 20 class that actually works.

[CThruTheEgo]

I get that there is a school of players that wish all classes were "balanced" just like assassins. But they aren't. And they are not going to be.

Again, assassins aren't playing in a vacuum. They're playing with Bards, Paladins, Barbarians, Sorcs, Monks, and all the other classes that are about to get revamped. Making their hill harder to climb just because a certain school likes it that way isn't good game design. It's terribly uneven and inconsistent design.

I honestly think very well-geared and solo players are particularly numerous in that school as well, so I hope their input is looked at with the proper light.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your posts make it sound like you are in the school of players that's asking for everything to be an easy button. As nokowi said, assassins are an advanced build. Making their hill easier to climb just because a certain school likes it that way isn't good game design.

Why do you have a problem with there being easy button options for those who want them and advanced build options for those who want them? It's the best of both worlds and I, for one, am glad that it is this way. It's a nice balance overall imo, and because it caters to a wider audience, good game design is exactly what it is.

[nokowi]

Can you elaborate on this? I could get behind an idea like this, but what exactly would you suggest?

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard for total kills. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

[CThruTheEgo]

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

I like this idea. 12 seconds is certainly not too short. And this would effectively increase assassin dps (or lethality) without directly increasing their melee damage. You would end up using the defining ability more often, which means more time spent in sneak mode, so this fits very well thematically. It is a boost that emphasizes and enhances their playstyle.

How about it Sev, can we decrease the assassinate cooldown to 12 seconds?

[nokowi]

then why do you take an hour to solo detour at cap? 0o

Because assassinate was broken in U22 and I did not show the shortcut. I also only had T2 TF and was using rapiers. This was before melee power. DC had nothing to do with time. Waiting for a 15 second timer did.

My videos are not to show how awesome I am. They are to educate players. I may do 3 runs and post the version that is the most informative. This usually involves making some mistakes, showing how to avoid the mistake and also how to recover from the mistake.

[dualscissors]

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard for total kills. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

A 12 sec. cooldown, which would simply be a fraction shorter than the current 15 sec. cooldown would improve the assassin's deadliness related to its namesake ability.

It would create additional incentive for assassins to try to get back into sneak mode during fights. (That incentive is there with a 15 sec. cooldown too, but the longer the cooldown, the more likely your party is finishing up the battle.)

It would also give a nod in acknowledging that the Assassinate ability is thematically the elite Killer's move vs. Coup de Grace. They'd both do the same damage (i.e. death). Coup would be the easy button for reaching DCs. Assassinate would cooldown 20% faster and if used tactically in the right situations can proc a double kill.

[bbqzor]

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game

No. It takes following one singular build, and then a lot of general game system knowledge which is useful and helpful to many classes. A wizard should know which mobs have which kinds of strong or weak saves, and which spells to use on each. Anyone can make use of stealth knowledge when making invis runs. Any melee benefits from knowing mob AI and hit arcs to dodge attacks with twitch. Etc. Assassin isnt the only thinking/skilled thing out there.

And muddying the waters by trying to make DC changes about skill isnt helpful. People knowing how to stealth or how to move to setup assassinate is irrelevant to the discussion. If they cant do those things, they wont be able to make use of more DC. Simply having more DC doesnt affect anyones skill or lack thereof. If youre bad at rogue, or good at rogue, more DC doesnt change either. It just clouds the issue.

A few points of DC isnt being considered over some poster saying "I want to solo EE for free". Its because without it, there is zero diversity at the top end, in addition to having a lesser success rate than comparable alternatives. With a better DC progression, you open up the options for people to diversify a bit, or maintain their monobuild and get a dc befitting a monobuild. Without more DC, no one makes any of those build decisions you mention... they just take more Int and then see what more int permits them to take on the way.

Knowing more doesnt magically make the DC go up... changes to cores would. Its not about the player or their skill, its about the math. So theyre considering adding some more to make the math better. Anyone who is bad at rogue will still be bad, because its only affecting DC. Anyone who is good can use it to either be better at that one thing, or branch out a bit and have an assassin that might actually be different from the one next to it. Both are positives, and neither adjusts the place for player skill.

[redoubt]

I still beat 95%+ of group players using a slow moving assassin on EE content. Your description seems to show that you don't understand the best way to play assassin - at the front of the group killing mobs at 100% health, not picking up leftovers. I had about 20 people send me tells in U22 when assassinate was broken because I was still destroying kill counts in groups. You're statements are incorrect if you are talking about EE content. You may not be knowledgeable of this because you have chosen not to build assassin DC. This is a player choice, not a design problem with the assassin prestige class. I can back up my statements by taking some kill count screenshots if required by the players in this thread.

Assassin DC is not going to make assassin more effective for skilled players. The limitation is the 15 second timer, not the DC. Assassins are both very powerful (while in stealth) and very weak (while out of stealth). Giving multi-class characters assassinate will give the one powerful ability assassins have to players without those weaknesses. Good bye stealth rogue. It would be a shame to lose the one pure 20 class that actually works.

I've actually been involved in several of the rogue threads with both you and CThru and other good assassins. I get how to play them. I've had several of them myself. I played a dex based assassin for a long time. Like you, I usually led the kill count. Later, CThru convinced my to go full INT spec, so I tried it and had the same experience, but with better DCs. When the Divine Crusader destiny came out, I switch from SD to that one and still led the kill count (without assassinating). I have an aggressive play style and I am almost always at the front. Same when I am playing a paladin, a sorc, a wizard, a ranger, etc. My play style results in my leading most kill counts (same as yours does), but what does that prove? That I move fast? That I have bonuses to damage when mobs are at low health? That I move to help finish off mobs that are already being worked on to be more efficient than 6 people each killing one mob at a time? That I am a kill stealer? That I have amazeballs DPS? It could be any of that, but likely it really just means very little.

When you specify EE content, is that because anything easier is just a zerg run and there is no need for assassinate because the groups never stop running? I have a couple of core groups I play with. We move slower than some, but faster than most. We have one set of characters we run where we run EE. Its not much slower than EH. The other sets are EH runners for the most part because they are not ready for EE. I get that EE is the only place where the assassinate DC matters (it easy every where else.) Was there some other point about it?

I get the idea that you don't wait for the group as an assassin. Get out front, assassinate and leave during the mop up so you can be out front again. (This of course leads to big kill counts due to play style.) Note: this works well as long as the people you leave behind don't need your help.

Lastly, could you please elaborate on the 5 assassin builds? I think the discussion on existing assassinate builds got lost while we had the tape measures out.

[nokowi]

No. It takes following one singular build, and then a lot of general game system knowledge which is useful and helpful to many classes. A wizard should know which mobs have which kinds of strong or weak saves, and which spells to use on each. Anyone can make use of stealth knowledge when making invis runs. Any melee benefits from knowing mob AI and hit arcs to dodge attacks with twitch. Etc. Assassin isnt the only thinking/skilled thing out there.

And muddying the waters by trying to make DC changes about skill isnt helpful. People knowing how to stealth or how to move to setup assassinate is irrelevant to the discussion. If they cant do those things, they wont be able to make use of more DC. Simply having more DC doesnt affect anyones skill or lack thereof. If youre bad at rogue, or good at rogue, more DC doesnt change either. It just clouds the issue.

A few points of DC isnt being considered over some poster saying "I want to solo EE for free". Its because without it, there is zero diversity at the top end, in addition to having a lesser success rate than comparable alternatives. With a better DC progression, you open up the options for people to diversify a bit, or maintain their monobuild and get a dc befitting a monobuild. Without more DC, no one makes any of those build decisions you mention... they just take more Int and then see what more int permits them to take on the way.

Knowing more doesnt magically make the DC go up... changes to cores would. Its not about the player or their skill, its about the math. So theyre considering adding some more to make the math better. Anyone who is bad at rogue will still be bad, because its only affecting DC. Anyone who is good can use it to either be better at that one thing, or branch out a bit and have an assassin that might actually be different from the one next to it. Both are positives, and neither adjusts the place for player skill.

Skill is what happens while you play the game. Build is what happens outside of the game.

The math says that DC's are fine through all of heroics and through about level 24-25. From level 25-27 DC's can be challenging for newer players. At level 28, +4 DC items become available and DC's are fine for current content. A solution in line with the math is to add a +4 DC item at level 24-25 that has much less other effects (if any) than the level 28 +4 DC items.

And yes, adding a few DC's will in fact ruin the game. Squishy stealth characters can not share the same space as toons that have everything. This will kill stealth assassin. Its hard to see how you can call this a positive. I never claimed a few DC increase was an easy button, I claimed it ruins an entire prestige class.

I see you equating build choices with different play. This is a huge fallacy. You are going to choose between dps and assassinate regardless of build. You are going to hit the same buttons regardless of your build. Let's not confuse what happens outside of the game with what happens inside of the game.

[CThruTheEgo]

No. It takes following one singular build, and then a lot of general game system knowledge which is useful and helpful to many classes. A wizard should know which mobs have which kinds of strong or weak saves, and which spells to use on each. Anyone can make use of stealth knowledge when making invis runs. Any melee benefits from knowing mob AI and hit arcs to dodge attacks with twitch. Etc. Assassin isnt the only thinking/skilled thing out there.

Knowing the game, game mechanics, mob behavior, etc. is useful for all classes, but it is essential to assassins. Not knowing those things on other builds means you will still contribute and still be successful, but it won't look as pretty. Not knowing them on an assassin, however, means you will struggle, fail, and be more of a burden than help to a group. In other words, assassin have a much smaller margin of error than any other build. That is why the assassin is an inherently more skillful playstyle.

A few points of DC isnt being considered over some poster saying "I want to solo EE for free". Its because without it, there is zero diversity at the top end, in addition to having a lesser success rate than comparable alternatives. With a better DC progression, you open up the options for people to diversify a bit

You are right about this and that's the reason why I'm not opposed to a few more DCs, but not too many. 1-3 more DCs means I'll be able to drop some int from enhancements, destiny, and/or twist, which will allow me to do more than I am currently able. It opens the door for more variety, and I think that's a good thing. Too many more will enable even more options, which can widen the margin of error and destroy the uniquely skillful playstyle of the assassin.

[nokowi]

I've actually been involved in several of the rogue threads with both you and CThru and other good assassins. I get how to play them. I've had several of them myself. I played a dex based assassin for a long time. Like you, I usually led the kill count. Later, CThru convinced my to go full INT spec, so I tried it and had the same experience, but with better DCs. When the Divine Crusader destiny came out, I switch from SD to that one and still led the kill count (without assassinating). I have an aggressive play style and I am almost always at the front. Same when I am playing a paladin, a sorc, a wizard, a ranger, etc. My play style results in my leading most kill counts (same as yours does), but what does that prove? That I move fast? That I have bonuses to damage when mobs are at low health? That I move to help finish off mobs that are already being worked on to be more efficient than 6 people each killing one mob at a time? That I am a kill stealer? That I have amazeballs DPS? It could be any of that, but likely it really just means very little.

When you specify EE content, is that because anything easier is just a zerg run and there is no need for assassinate because the groups never stop running? I have a couple of core groups I play with. We move slower than some, but faster than most. We have one set of characters we run where we run EE. Its not much slower than EH. The other sets are EH runners for the most part because they are not ready for EE. I get that EE is the only place where the assassinate DC matters (it easy every where else.) Was there some other point about it?

I get the idea that you don't wait for the group as an assassin. Get out front, assassinate and leave during the mop up so you can be out front again. (This of course leads to big kill counts due to play style.) Note: this works well as long as the people you leave behind don't need your help.

Lastly, could you please elaborate on the 5 assassin builds? I think the discussion on existing assassinate builds got lost while we had the tape measures out.

Assassin DC only excels in EE because of the party speed on EH, the higher DC's needed on EE (less mass insta kills primarily), and because of additional HP on mobs. I will congratulate you if your groups run EE as fast as EH. Reading the forums, 99.99% of players run EH specifically because it is faster (and complain about this loudly). If you have a single player zerging ahead of everyone on EE, gathering mobs and energy bursting the entire dungeon, well this is really an indictment of things being too easy rather than a design problem with assassin.

I am including DPS builds as assassin choices. Sorry for mixing terminology. Technically I should use "DC assassin" for DC builds and "Assassin" for any build taking lots of points in the Assassin tree. Right now you get to choose between DPS and Insta-Kill. Melee DPS can operate in Shadowdancer, Fury, or LD. You can go dex, str, or int to damage. Ranged dex builds can operate in Shadowdancer or Shiradi? You can ask Vinoe on Sarlona for real info here --> Executioners Shot is a form of ranged insta-kill. Melee Insta-kill is Int only by design.