Rogue - Assassin Changes

[depositbox]

Sadly, but it seems it's true. Many power gamers don't like playing a rogue now.
I was usually only rogue in EE raids.

By the way, I think these posts are not proper for this thread, let's change our topics to make better enhancement.
I can admit there are many people who doesn't like dex assassin, but, you can admit there are many people who like it, too.

We have something in common, we love assassins

I just want assassins to be good. Rogues too. Sev knows bards shouldnt have higher assassinate DCs. No lore reasoning behind that could ever justify it. Same for monks and QP. Coup De Grace has PROVED how utterly menial and useless insta kills are in end game today. Put the DC at 120 and it doesnt make a difference in the slightest. I played swashbucklers exclusively for months when the pirate update dropped. Never have I even wasted time using coup de grace when Im zerging. It just isnt even an afterthought in today's meta.

Put it another way. Other classes like rogue, monk and even pale masters have to dedicate an entire stat to be their main stat just to be able to reach a good DC. How does this compare to bards? Put simpy It doesn't. I sacrifice nothing on swashbucklers to attain a dc of 75. Before the d20 adds 1-20 more..... On a strength or con based build. I dont waste skill points either. Bards have a ton. Perform also boosts your sonic power for more dps. You give up nothing.

Utter BS with turbine's view towards insta kills. it's hypocritical, backwards, and an outdated relic feared by devs from when the game was hard. Newsflash this isn't 2009. MotU broke your game. Throw out your horrid misconceptions about how this game is played, devs. You dont play it at our level to understand fully what youre talking about when it comes to certain things.

[CThruTheEgo]

Cool, I like this one too. Only I think this part is not really accurate.
Because in this part you compare DEX build with new enhancements with your INT one with old enhancements. I think it would be more accurate if you'd added the new enhancements breakdown for your INT build aswell, as after the revamp you'll have to make some sacrifices on it too.

I took the new enhancements into account when I compared the two. But I'll write them up and post them just for the sake of transparency.

[redoubt]

T4 Killer not work well,it's useless in most of the time

How about rework this enhancement

Killer:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.

What does not work about this enhancement?

[CThruTheEgo]

Make your voice heard people, let Sev hear that the Assassin needs to be on equal footing with the swasbuckler if not ahead.

Here's my voice: Thank you Sev for acknowledging that basing the DC of coup de grace off of a skill was too much and for not allowing that mistake to be repeated throughout the rest of the game.

A skill based Assassination DC is the only way to retain the viability of the assassin tree.

False.

[Full_Bleed]

Make your voice heard people, let Sev hear that the Assassin needs to be on equal footing with the swasbuckler if not ahead. A skill based Assassination DC is the only way to retain the viability of the assassin tree.

Not worth asking for something that will not happen.

Things we've heard time and time again in this thread:

"Assassinate DC is balanced fine now." --Usually from people with DC's and gear I know I'm never going to have.

"Coup de Grace isn't better than Assassinate." --Usually from people who are fearful that their Bards will be nerfed or Assassins will end up with better insta kills. Neither of which will be allowed to happen.

"A DEX to Assassinate build won't be better than an INT build." --Usually from people who want a more powerful assassin and are willing to change *everything* about their current builds to achieve it. It's not enough that assassins had to go to Harper to get a buff... now they'll have to LR and re-gear completely to move up the food chain.


At this point, I think it's pretty obvious that we should all be lobbying for minor tweaks to what's already on the table.

Like:

1) Killer and Measure the Foe decay instead of pop.
2) Buff to INT build in lieu of DEX builds becoming preferred.
3) More helpless damage so we can clean up targets that can't kill us.
4) Faster sneak.
5) Allow Oranges to be assassinated (or at least some kind of additional debuff/damage on red/oranges who would fail otherwise).
6) Better scaling poison/bleed damage for end game.
7) Defensive Stance: Into Thin Air. (A low proccing second dodge roll with a Vanish animation. Ok, so this isn't really on the table... but a little more defense and being as annoying as Shakra would be fun. :P )

[redoubt]

I took the new enhancements into account when I compared the two. But I'll write them up and post them just for the sake of transparency.

Thanks for working up the new build and sharing it with us.

What are your thoughts about going DEX and then using a different destiny?

[brzytki]

I took a look at the notes. It's a bit hard to read/follow in a few places. I want to be clear on the DC you came up with so correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the dex based assassinate DC is 67 without completionist or measure the foe. Hassan currently is 69 without completionist and measure the foe. But you said it was 3 behind mine currently. I'm just trying to clarify.

No worries. I'm actually glad someone was interested enough to ask questions.
About the DC, I took your build and gave it Completionist instead of Rogue PL, and your build ended up having 70 DC pre Measure. My could have 2 less (-6 ED + 1 enhancement + 1 insightful) but I decided to drop my DEX from enhancements and twist (total -2 DEX). That enables me to still grab KtA and some other enhancements while freeing up a twist for Balanced Attacks for considerably more DPS. With the INT of 44 (don't need 11/4 items, just 9/2 is enough), I'd have 7 less damage from KtA which would be vastly compensated for by using LD.

Either way, most of the power that build gains is from running in dreadnaught. I could drop 4 DCs right now on Hassan by running in dreadnaught and twisting stealthy instead of int, freeing up 2 APs because I could drop another int from enhancements to even it out (those would probably go into more melee power from harper), and still have an assassinate DC that's 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns. It would be only 1-2 DCs behind the dex version you posted but would have higher dps due to higher benefit from know the angles and harper melee power. So I just don't see how dex is that revolutionary when I could get a similar build now.

Still on my phone so apologies for not answering you directly but please look a few posts back where I was answering draven1, about INT based rogue in LD. The comparison between my build and yours converted to LD is all there, if a bit brief.

It's post number 742

[CThruTheEgo]

3) Saving 3 AP on your main stat by taking shadow dodge for 3 dex instead of taking 3x int for 6 AP.

According to the first post of the acrobat revamp thread, shadow dodge will cost 2 AP per rank. So you're still spending 6 AP for 3 stat points. The advantage to shadow dodge is that you have to spend 10 AP in 1 tree to unlock 4 stat points (including the normal dex enhancement).

4) Saving 4 AP because there is no real downside to dex yugo pots while 50% reduction in fort is a bit much for a rogue so int yugo pots aren't even used by me while dex pots would always be used

What do Yugo pots have to do with AP?

5) Save 2 AP from harper tree since there is no need to spend 10 pts in the tree to have access to strategic combat II

You're really reaching with this one. Given that there is a lot in harper worth taking, these points are not wasted so this is not a valid critique. Those 2 AP can get you 1 more stat point or 2 melee power.

6) 10 Increase to armor class

Again, really reaching. The only content where AC actually makes a difference is trivial to begin with and AC isn't really needed as a result.

9) Synergies with the thief acrobat tree allowing you to specialize in both since they are both dex-based
10) 3% extra dodge via shadow dodge

This I agree with. Improved defensive roll is likely not an option for an int based assassin because they would have to waste points in acrobat to unlock it, whereas 18 in acrobat is a no brainer for a dex build because you get 4 dex for those 18 AP. Between shadow dodge and improved defensive roll, there is a great deal of synergy in the acrobat tree for a dex based assassin, and I even question whether or not it is too much. But AP are still the limiting factor. Spending a lot in acrobat will limit you elsewhere, just like spending in harper on an int based assassin limits them, and they certainly have a great deal of synergy with harper. Harper will still be the tree for dps, whereas acrobat will be the tree for defense. There is a certain balance in that.

Advantages for an int build
1) 5 more damage from know the angles

I came up with a difference of 8 in my build, but I worked out all the details including gear, which will be one of the trickiest parts to optimize on a dex version.

4) 30% extra fortification since not penalized by shadow dodge.

This penalty is being removed with the revamp, so this is a non-issue for either.

[dualscissors]

OK, I redid Hassan's Assassin as a dex based build. All the details are posted below my comments on the changes. Let me know if you see any inconsistencies or errors.

Overall the dex version has far more options than an int build because of greater flexibility with enhancements. On a dex build, the mandatory enhancements seem to be 41 AP in assassin for the capstone and 16 in acrobat for shadow dodge, leaving 23 to spend as you want. Investing more in assassin will get you more dps. Investing in acrobat focuses on defenses (defensive roll, max dodge from cores). Investing in harper gets you more dps from melee power. Investing in halfling gets you sneak attack dice and self healing if using the dragonmarks. Investing in shadar-kai gets you whatever that has to offer. Investing in mechanic gets you better scroll healing and improved traps. I chose to go more defensively just to see what that would offer. An int build does not have this degree of flexibility because they need to go heavily into both assassin and harper.

There are a lot of options for dex builds and some good synergy among them, but AP is the limiting factor. You just can't get everything and will have to make sacrifices. There is a lot of good stuff in assassin and I wanted to spend more, but had to trim it back to make room for stuff in other trees. A lot of good options that require difficult choices is usually a good thing. Overall, I don't see too much power increase in dex builds, just more variety. If this change goes through, I know I'll be coming up with my ideal version of each so I can decide which one I like the most.

It's also far more difficult to find an optimal gear set for dex based. I had to drop the GS HP item, which included permablur.

Edit.

Thanks for the work. I would have said that the survivability/options by going Dex-assassin would outweight the modest damage perks with the Int-assassin.

But now that we're seeing Mechanic, maybe Int has some versatility there...

[depositbox]

Here's my voice: Thank you Sev for acknowledging that basing the DC of coup de grace off of a skill was too much and for not allowing that mistake to be repeated throughout the rest of the game.

lol false as false can be, but, ok..

[burningwind]

you should consider given hips(hidden in plain sight) feat to assassin through this tree. after all it is such a waste on ranger.

[slarden]

According to the first post of the acrobat revamp thread, shadow dodge will cost 2 AP per rank. So you're still spending 6 AP for 3 stat points. The advantage to shadow dodge is that you have to spend 10 AP in 1 tree to unlock 4 stat points (including the normal dex enhancement).

What do Yugo pots have to do with AP?

You're really reaching with this one. Given that there is a lot in harper worth taking, these points are not wasted so this is not a valid critique. Those 2 AP can get you 1 more stat point or 2 melee power.

Again, really reaching. The only content where AC actually makes a difference is trivial to begin with and AC isn't really needed as a result.

This I agree with. Improved defensive roll is likely not an option for an int based assassin because they would have to waste points in acrobat to unlock it, whereas 18 in acrobat is a no brainer for a dex build because you get 4 dex for those 18 AP. Between shadow dodge and improved defensive roll, there is a great deal of synergy in the acrobat tree for a dex based assassin, and I even question whether or not it is too much. But AP are still the limiting factor. Spending a lot in acrobat will limit you elsewhere, just like spending in harper on an int based assassin limits them, and they certainly have a great deal of synergy with harper. Harper will still be the tree for dps, whereas acrobat will be the tree for defense. There is a certain balance in that.

I came up with a difference of 8 in my build, but I worked out all the details including gear, which will be one of the trickiest parts to optimize on a dex version.

This penalty is being removed with the revamp, so this is a non-issue for either.

I agree with the difference of 8 I was not including 6 int from shadowdancer for the extra 3 although I only take 4 int from shadowdancer so for me it's 7.

I missed the changes to shadow dodge so that is a non-issue. Giving 3 dex for 3AP was too much if dex is now a DC stat for insta-kills. Giving 6 Dex for 3 AP as it exists on live is ridiculous.

Without getting into a point-counterpoint discussion I see a very optimized build when I look at your int-based assassin except for 2 easy gear swaps. When I look at your dex-based assassin I see a very unoptimized build with many ways to improve it. You would be better off keeping your existing gear and using a +2 insightful dex augment and dex yugo pots.

I will work up my halfing assassin a little more, but I think I would still go that direction if I can use dex instead of int. The shadowdodge changes make a big difference so you are right that even if dex is better it won't be multitudes better depending on what they do with the capstone. That is really the key - whether dex gets buffed in the capstone or not.

[Severlin]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

[slarden]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

With the changes you are making to shadow dodge I think it's fine

With shadow dodge as it is on live - +6 dex for 3 AP it was way over the top. Since you are changing shadow dodge to +3 dex for 6AP I think it's fine.

I think you should autogrant insightful reflexes as a free feat in the capstone though to even things out.

Please reconsider boosting sneak speed though.

[Thar]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

INT or Dex should be fine either way. INT for those skills based rogues and DEX for those skill based rogues. Dex probably lends ot a little better combat useage but with int to damage in harper, both are used and viable. I know an int based barbarian... yes as silly as that sounds it works for him.

[dualscissors]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

"Too good" might be open to debate. Dex assassins would certainly have a freedom from the Harper tree and defensive synergy with Acrobat that Int assassins wouldn't.

[Failedlegend]

What about a Tier 5 or Core 12 Ability "Hide in Plain Sight" that granted the ability to hide during combat at a penalty based on how many enemies are around (bigger penalty for one's aggroed to you)

[CThruTheEgo]

If you really think you are right, then take CThru's build and convert it to LD, for arguments' sake keeping ED points and APs in assassin tree spent like on my build.

Thanks for directing me to this post. I'm still catching up on the thread and doing a lot of skimming.

First, choose your twists and then spend other APs. Then you'll see that to stay somewhat competitive in DPS you'll need to drop your INT by 10 points, which gives you DC 2 pints lower than my build while I can still easily burst for 2 more.

I'd lose 6 int from shadowdancer and would have to drop the int twist to swap it with stealthy from shadowdancer. That's only 7 int, but of course I'd drop 1 more from enhancements to even it out and free up 2 AP. So that's a loss of 8 int which is and 4 DCs and 6 damage when you factor in know the angles.

Without the need for brace for impact to offset the penalty from Yugo pots, balanced attacks is an obvious choice to use with no mercy.

You'll have lower saves

I'd end up with 70 reflex from loss of lithe and 8 int, but including the new 4 from the capstone. That's still no fail and before uncanny dodge and trap/past life bonuses. Other saves would stay the same. Well, fort would probably go up actually, since I'd probably get some con from dreadnaught.

no defensive roll

This is one thing I have definitely noticed. Defensive roll is basically not an option for an int build because of how many points they have to waste in acrobat to reach improved defensive roll. But a dex build will likely already be spending 18 in acro for the easy 4 dex, so another 5 AP is easily justifiable.

lower dodge

Max dex bonus is going to be the limiting factor here for both versions. I'd lose 3 from lithe and have 3 less than the dex version from shadow dodge. That would give me a MDB of 29 and I'd have no trouble keeping this max with measure the foe and nimbleness. The dex version would only have 3 more MDB, so this is a minor difference.

lower threat reduction

I'd have 40% from subtlety, 5 from shiv, and 10 from sly flourish. If there's a difference, it won't be by much.

maybe +20 hamp

Gearing might mean the dex version has even less heal amp than this. Have you considered gearing options?

slightly more MP

5

but no No Mercy

True. As far as I can tell, you basically have to drop know the angles to get this. But tbh, this may be enough of an incentive once you have balanced attacks in epics.

maybe 8-9 straight damage more

That sounds about right.

one less feat for example rogue PL

I've already got all the feats I want so this is a non-issue for me.

slightly better positive spell power.

The self healing on the dex version is lower due to less heal amp and lower spell power, but this is offset by the increased defenses, mostly from improved defensive roll, so overall survivability seems better on the dex version. It is worth noting, however, that running in dreadnaught means a loss of 15% incorp (assuming you have ghostly somewhere, and that's available on enough gear that you should).

[CThruTheEgo]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Alright, so after writing my response to brzytki's dreadnaught build, I'm not seeing many actual advantages to staying int based if running in dreadnaught. At least, the advantages do not outweigh the gains. I think the real boost in power for a dex based assassin comes from no mercy coupled with balanced attacks. Assassins do not have an inherent method of inducing helplessness, but balanced attacks is certainly a viable option for any twf in epics. And it's easier for a dex based to fit balanced attacks because they don't need to twist brace for impact to offset the penalty for Yugo pots. The extra damage from no mercy is difficult to quantify because balanced attacks is not on demand and may be inconsistent at times. Nevertheless, 30% extra damage is nothing to sneeze, not to mention the extra 50% you get against helpless mobs in the first place. Dreadnaught gives you another 50% while any action boost is active, and you should have plenty of those.

Balanced attacks also offers defense in that it knocks mobs down. Coupled with a 70+% chance to take half damage when below 50% hp from improved defensive roll, and a slightly higher dodge to offset the lower incorp, immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces, and you've got some nice defensive boosts that should offset the lower self healing.

Of the other options I looked at, I didn't see OPness so much as just variability. With this combination however – shadow dodge, improved defensive roll, no mercy, and balanced attacks – I can see why the dex version is too powerful. That's rather unfortunate actually, because there is no diversity among int builds. There's really only one optimal version with a few tiny varations. But I see now that this build would be the dex version of that – one optimal dex version with a few tiny variations.

So the problem with dex based is the synergy between dex, shadow dodge, improved defensive roll, no mercy, and balanced attacks. Altogether, I agree with others that it's just a bit too much. I'm not an advocate for nerfing acrobat, but the problem for dex based assassins would be fixed if something as simple as shadow dodge was moved to tier 5. Then, just like int builds now, dex builds would have to waste a lot of points to access improved defensive roll and no mercy and would be making a greater sacrifice to reach them.

I stand corrected. Sev, please take note, this particular combination is what would make dex builds OP.

[brzytki]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

It's not that it's too good. I'll write it as a list so that you can understand better:

• it would replace almost all INT builds with DEX builds because every INT build you can come up with, converted to DEX would be ultimately better (but not all people min/max)
• it would allow more variety of builds but only DEX builds
• you'd see more variety in races being played
• you'd see even fewer rogues using Shadowdancer (unless you revamp it)
• with the switch from SD to LD rogues would be finally competitive DPS-wise with other classes in epics while being able to maintain high DC (they'll stay if SD gets more damage perks)
• it would help with rogues survivability
• some new players without gear will have a harder time with traps because they'll choose DEX over INT (not necessarily bad, a good learning experience)
• DEX based rogues will have an easier time raising their DC in the future
• lazy rogue players could dump INT completely and won't bother with traps unless you make them more of a threat (though they'll be probably ostracized lol)

That's my summary for your idea.