Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Severlin]

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.


Core Abilities:

Assassin's Trick: This now works on all enemies and no longer has a saving throw. Targets now lose 25% Fortification and their Sneak Attack immunity.

Nimbleness: Nimbleness no longer requires sneak attacks and works on any hit.

Deadly Shadow: You gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence. You gain 10 Melee Power and +4 Sneak Attack dice. You gain +4 to Reflex saving throws.


Tier One

Poison Strikes: (Opponents struck by these attacks have an "Assassin's Mark" for 10 seconds.)

Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack. It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.

Stealthy: You also gain +20%/+35%/+50% movement while sneaking.


Tier Two

Venomed Blades: Now costs 1/1/1 AP. (As a reminder, Venomed Blades now scales with 200% Melee Power.)

Bleed Them Out: The bleed damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

Damage Boost: Cost reduced to 1 AP per level. Changed to boost Melee Power by 10/20/30.


Tier Three

Critical Accuracy is removed.

Critical Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) + 1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits


Tier Four

Critical Damage is removed.

Weakening Strikes: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) reduce the Melee Power and Ranged Power of the opponent by 10 for 10 seconds.

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)


Tier Five

Measure the Foe: Gain +4 Melee Power, +2 Dodge, +2 Maximum Dodge, +1 to hit and +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate ability for every 4/2/1 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times and lasts for 10 seconds after you come out of stealth.

Deadly Strikes: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) do +5 damage.

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) You gain 1/2/3 to Maximum Dodge. While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor and gain 2/4/6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Sev~

[bbqzor]

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.

I am pressed for time and will offer more detailed feedback later. But I need to know:

Does this round of changes include a fix to a solo rogue assassin being able to both:
1) Assassinate more than one mob from a single use of assassinate, and
2) Avoid automatically agroing other mobs when using assassinate.

If not, those need to be included. They have to do with the interactions with the "new" stealth/awareness system that went in awhile back.

If you need additional details, let me know (post or pm) and Ill make a detailed report including repo information when I have time (when Ill also provide feedback on the changes here).

[Wizza]

Not impressed.

Giving them 3 PRR and 6 more dodge (when every Rogue is most likely running around with Max Dodge) is very ridicolous compared to every other melee running around with 200.

Also not impressed with the overall changes.

- What's the point of giving Melee power WHILE STEALTHED? They are not gonna attack while in stealth, just Assassinate. You lose the buff as soon as you get out of sneak, pointless.
- Assassin's trick still has an AWFUL LONG ANIMATION.
- Weakness Poison is not something I'd take. Reducing MP by 10, why? I don't wanna get hit at all on a rogue with such low PRR.
- Giving the capstone +4 Reflex save when most of the rogues are now Int rogues is pretty pointless too. They lack DPS, not saves.
- Execute is still worthless. 500 Damage when I'm doing 200 dmg per hit and it disrupts my attack chain is pretty lame. Will see with scaling MP how it is

Not a single buff to Assassinate, a 30s CD insta-kill ability, when BARDS have a 12s insta-kill ability that doesn't need them to sneak forever to get a meaningful DC and uses the highest Skill as DC.

They need more than this.

EDIT: To buff rogues, you need to take a look at TWF compared to THF and SWF, otherwise it will never be enough.

[GusTheMage]

The biggest problem with the rogue build now is not the enhancement tree, but the fact that they get hit by every ranged mob in the game. My hide / move silently skills are close to 100 yet I constantly have my sneak broken by stupid archers. It is very annoying to get right up to a mob and have your stealth broken by some mob not even near the fight.

[Craftsmann]

The biggest problem with the rogue build now is not the enhancement tree, but the fact that they get hit by every ranged mob in the game. My hide / move silently skills are close to 100 yet I constantly have my sneak broken by stupid archers. It is very annoying to get right up to a mob and have your stealth broken by some mob not even near the fight.

Rogue needs to be Artificer to do more not less as pure rogue! Should be Artificer to do all combat, use defender, and use runearm to kill all. As Artificer will advance twice as fast!

[Severlin]

Not impressed.

Giving them 3 PRR and 6 more dodge (when every Rogue is most likely running around with Max Dodge) is very ridicolous compared to every other melee running around with 200.

Also not impressed with the overall changes.

- What's the point of giving Melee power WHILE STEALTHED? They are not gonna attack while in stealth, just Assassinate. You lose the buff as soon as you get out of sneak, pointless.
- Assassin's trick still has an AWFUL LONG ANIMATION.
- Weakness Poison is not something I'd take. Reducing MP by 10, why? I don't wanna get hit at all on a rogue with such low PRR.
- Giving the capstone +4 Reflex save when most of the rogues are now Int rogues is pretty pointless too. They lack DPS, not saves.
- Execute is still worthless. 500 Damage when I'm doing 200 dmg per hit and it disrupts my attack chain is pretty lame. Will see with scaling MP how it is

Not a single buff to Assassinate, a 30s CD insta-kill ability, when BARDS have a 12s insta-kill ability that doesn't need them to sneak forever to get a meaningful DC and uses the highest Skill as DC.

They need more than this.

~ The Melee Power lasts for 10 seconds out of stealth. I clarified the text.

~ A reduction of 10 MP is roughly 9.9% damage reduction that works on anyone the monster is attacking, so it works when the Rogue is fighting a boss and helps other characters survive when the Rogue is sneak attacking.

~ Both Assassinate and Coup-de-Grace are 15 second cooldowns. The wiki (and I believe the in game text for the bard ability) are incorrect.

Sev~

[Wizza]

~ The Melee Power lasts for 10 seconds out of stealth. I clarified the text.

~ A reduction of 10 MP is roughly 9.9% damage reduction that works on anyone the monster is attacking, so it works when the Rogue is fighting a boss and helps other characters survive when the Rogue is sneak attacking.

~ Both Assassinate and Coup-de-Grace are 15 second cooldowns. The wiki (and I believe the in game text for the bard ability) are incorrect.

Sev~

You are still asking a Rogue to sneak for 5 seconds to get this buff for 10 seconds. It is not practical to do in the middle of a fight. If we are fighting against a group of mobs, I cannot sneak mid fight and assassinate them, which is why Coup de Grace is so much better. Also, if a rogue is hit, I lose the sneak and I cannot sneak anymore because they see me. This is a buff that you get once per encounter and not even, while Coup de grace can be casted multiple times. Also, in a raid instance as MoD, Wyrm, Peaks, it's just not practical.

I still don't see any self-healing as well. You gave Barb one, every class has one, I'm expecting Rogues to have one as well. And DPS wise, they are still very behind to Barb, pallis and bards.

And TWF is still full of bugs and all around subpar compared to THF and SWF, which makes any improvement to the Rogues null. The range is horrible, the attack animation is horrible as well etc etc. Let's remember also HOW TWF IS THE ONLY FIGHTING STYLE THAT DOES NOT HAVE A +10 MELEE POWER in his feats. Rogues have to sneak for 5 seconds to get it for 10 seconds

[Severlin]

You are still asking a Rogue to sneak for 5 seconds to get this buff for 10 seconds. It is not practical to do in the middle of a fight. If we are fighting against a group of mobs, I cannot sneak mid fight and assassinate them,

Correct. It isn't meant for the middle of a fight. It's an opener for solo rogues.

Also, in a raid instance as MoD, Wyrm, Peaks, it's just not practical.

In a raid you should be dealing out tons of Sneak Attack damage so you are probably fine there.

I still don't see any self-healing as well. You gave Barb one, every class has one, I'm expecting Rogues to have one as well. And DPS wise, they are still very behind to Barb, pallis and bards.

Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.

And TWF is still full of bugs and all around subpar compared to THF and SWF,

The specifics of TWF are probably off topic for this thread.

Sev~

[Thar]

And DPS wise, they are still very behind to Barb, pallis and bards.

And TWF is still full of bugs and all around subpar compared to THF and SWF, which makes any improvement to the Rogues null. The range is horrible, the attack animation is horrible as well etc etc. Let's remember also HOW TWF IS THE ONLY FIGHTING STYLE THAT DOES NOT HAVE A +10 MELEE POWER in his feats. Rogues have to sneak for 5 seconds to get it for 10 seconds

with like 15d6 sneak attack damage they are at the same level of the above. They just can't take a hit like the above or have super dodge like bards.

twf is bugged, whirlwind is broken for twf as melees does like one slow animation hit in a double spin. monks get like 4 hits per 360 rotation. it is a style that is far behind dps and needs melee power or speed boost to attacks. THF is supposed to do the most per hit, sword board should do best defense, twf should do the most dps as your doing more hits. (ie per pen and paper). twf in ddo is far bhind the other styles for a number of reasons, one being light weapon requirements for best to hit.

[ValariusK]

Have you decided where an assassin ought to be insofar as the DPS food chain? When able to sneak attack vs when not able to?

One specific suggestion:
Change the assassin's trick to a passive 25% fort bypass. Add to the 12th level assassin core the ability to sneak attack things not sneak attackable, also passive. This avoids questions of animation speed and will make your balancing act much easier in the future.

[Severlin]

Have you decided where an assassin ought to be insofar as the DPS food chain? When able to sneak attack vs when not able to?

Assassins should have excellent single target DPS when sneak attacking.

One specific suggestion:
Change the assassin's trick to a passive 25% fort bypass. Add to the 12th level assassin core the ability to sneak attack things not sneak attackable, also passive. This avoids questions of animation speed and will make your balancing act much easier in the future.

Interesting suggestion making the fort bypass and sneak attack work as a passive. I'll bring it up with the team.

Sev~

[Eryhn]

putting both crit accuracy AND damage into tier 3 (which is I believe the lowest tier of any tree for getting both so far and thus new) is gonna go a long way to promote /3 rogue multi builds but I fail to see what this does for pure or neigh pure rogues which are the one that need the boost.

this'll be a nice boost to some specific multiclass builds that are alreay crazy crit range fotm - people will take rogue 3 for evasion, some sneak attack and the crits and be free to take other stuff than crit in tier4 of their main trees - sure you wanna go there?!?

[Spoonwelder]

~ A reduction of 10 MP is roughly 9.9% damage reduction that works on anyone the monster is attacking, so it works when the Rogue is fighting a boss and helps other characters survive when the Rogue is sneak attacking.


Sev~

If the DC was higher - if it worked on bosses - at least up to red named - sure - I doubt any of that is true and for sure won't be under the current DC calculation/

[Severlin]

If the DC was higher - if it worked on bosses - at least up to red named - sure - I doubt any of that is true and for sure won't be under the current DC calculation/

There is no saving throw for either applying the Poisoned state or applying the MP debuff to affected enemies. Only Poison immunity would interfere with this.

Sev~

[geoffhanna]

Does this round of changes include a fix to a solo rogue assassin being able to both:
1) Assassinate more than one mob from a single use of assassinate, and
2) Avoid automatically agroing other mobs when using assassinate.

If not, those need to be included. They have to do with the interactions with the "new" stealth/awareness system that went in awhile back.

This. So much.

Even though you (Severlin) have said that the pass will only affect enhancement trees. Assassins, and many rogues but especially assassins, need to have stealth fixed. It is their core thing.

[Arkantios]

Hey there Sev, these changes look decent as a start to the change of the assassin tree. I'm happy with knowing this is only the first draft and things are probably going to change. Also, since I know you're replying a lot in this thread, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5532841 this might interest you. I realize that you've said this thread is based only upon the enhancements, but I'd like if you could at least look over this because from my perspective, it is most of the things that are wrong or that could / need to be changed with the rogue in general. Some of them being enhancement.

Anyway, thanks again for giving us rogues something to look forward to.

~ XxMazexX

[RD2play]

the assassin insta-kill should be at least as good as the swashbuckler one if not better !!! so either reduce preform to CtG to half mod, or give assassinate a way to get it higher than 120dc with not much effort.

love the idea posted to let you have a chance to keep stealthed after a successful assassinate.

[Nyata]

first off, I am really really glad rogues are finally getting some love from the dev side. so thanks much for that already!

of course though it's never quite that simple, and everyone has to put in their 2 cents, so here's mine:

quite frankly, I take objection to the expression solo-rogues... I play pure assassin/trapper rogues, because they make great team players and a worthwhile addition to any group. If the idea is to create yet another class that is supposed to be multiclassed and twisted into being able to solo end game content... you'll kill yet another reason for LFMs and grouping.

UMD as a source of healing... well... uhm.. sure. scrolls may be great... but... if you are in a pinch, i.e. mobbed, you plain simply do not have the TIME to change your main hand weapon to a heal scroll, click the heal scroll, change back and start fighting again. by that time, you are already dead.

and you will be dead by that time because taking two glancing blows from some two-handed weapon will already whipe out your measly hitpoints. yes. glancing blows and stray arrows that break you out of stealth are one of the major problems you have on a sneak-based ability like assassinate. specially since you need to stay in sneak to wait for the cooldown to finally finish.

why stay in stealth instead of dishing out the awesome sneak damage in a raid or general mob? well see above, 2 hits will kill you. basically, when I group with 'real healers' - they simply keep mass heals in mob encounters on me, keeping all other melee classes capped on HP, and me barely alive lol. sure, I usually rock the kill counts on my assassin, but only because I benefit from teamwork.

adjusting the 'hive consciousness' of a mob would go a long way already to help rogues, as someone mentioned earlier. if I assassinate one member in the mob, the rest of it should not agro on me. because that kind of is contradictory to the idea of assassinating, isn't it? they should stand in awe and wonder staring at their dead mate with a puzzled 'how the hell did that happen?' face.

[Torvaldsberg]

UMD as a source of healing... well... uhm.. sure. scrolls may be great... but... if you are in a pinch, i.e. mobbed, you plain simply do not have the TIME to change your main hand weapon to a heal scroll, click the heal scroll, change back and start fighting again. by that time, you are already dead.
.

As an alternative to healing, perhaps something similar to the Bugbear Assassin's ability to 'poof' mid-fight then come back?

[Systern]

Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack. It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.

If this is a cut n paste of Improved Feint... Improved Feint has been broken since U14.

(It has the issue where you need to stop the attack chain animation to use it, and also wait 1 tick for the bluff check to happen. If you hit the hotkey while holding down the mouse button, it never fires. If you Click again before the bluff check, that never fires.)