Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Robai]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.
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Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.
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Why Artificer matters in the Rogue Mechanic tree?
What are Artificer talents?

Suggestion:
Consider making auto-disable option in Rogue Mechanic tree (probably Tier 4).
For example:
1) search (or auto-search) trap box first
2) 1 sec timer
3) then auto-disable (with some penalty, so yes, it can explode)
4) that's why auto-disable option should be made as toggle

[flagged]

Currently it is just crossbows and thrown, isn't it? Or is it working on other ranged weapons too?

Wiki say crossbows and thrown, so does tooltip, don't know if the bug for bows is still running there was on that bumped Bows last year. I never saw much point in it myself.

[Caprice]

I am a little concerned about the lack of increases in "Ranged power" in the proposal.

Something along the lines of what the harper tree can provide, or the Fighting lines provide to players using THF, or SWF.

There's 10 Ranged Power in the proposed changes:

Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.

This is 10 RP in Tier 4, which is more generous than usual. Most of the Melee Power boosts in the other PrEs come as 10 MP in the capstone.

[Severlin]

I am a little concerned about the lack of increases in "Ranged power" in the proposal.

Something along the lines of what the harper tree can provide, or the Fighting lines provide to players using THF, or SWF.

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

[Livmo]

Why Artificer matters in the Rogue Mechanic tree?
What are Artificer talents?
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I play a pure arty and we do make traps. My favorites are Noisemakers and Deadly Fire Traps. I make others too. We are auto granted the Trapmaking feat at level 4:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

[Thar]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

if not in the tree end result will be a lot less than the melee power revisions so not enough (pending seeing what the epic levels and ed cores give, but i wouldn't expect more than the melee power given today).

not saying because it has to be equal but normal ranged is gimp unless your moncher with a high attack rate.

[Caprice]

I play a pure arty and we do make traps. My favorites are Noisemakers and Deadly Fire Traps. I make others too. We are auto granted the Trapmaking feat at level 4:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

Yes, but unless we splash Rogue 2 we are stuck with 50% of Disable Device as our trap DC. That limits them a lot.

[Blackheartox]

Can we get a trap proposal thread?
I want to see what you guys plan overall.
Keep in mind, damage traps arent popular.
Popular are the cc ones, so anything that brings in a doze of cc, and additionally helpless, is wonderful.
Esp with the change to trap setting time and activation

[Caprice]

if not in the tree end result will be a lot less than the melee power revisions so not enough (pending seeing what the epic levels and ed cores give, but i wouldn't expect more than the melee power given today).

not saying because it has to be equal but normal ranged is gimp unless your moncher with a high attack rate.

*points out the 10 Ranged Power available in tier 4, via the proposed new Fletching enhancement*
It should probably be in the capstone, but it is there.

[flagged]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

That's fine Sev but it will gimp the class going out the gate, just look at the Melee power increases all the recent passes have given out in cores and tiers. By neglecting to add that to the Mechanic you would neuter any ability to be a effective "sniper" the stated goal of the proposed changes.

You don't want to make all these excellent changes and they render them all second-class by eliminating any increases to "ranged power". Otherwise any effort your team will be wasted as classes need to be competitive with each other and the introduction of Melee power and Ranged power require that a chacter specializing in one or the other has the chance to acquire it.

Think about it, any of the recent class passes were able to increases their Melee power with feats and with enhancments. While in this proposal the mechanic has neither feat or enhancement avenues available to increase it. It's a no-go, you will end up having wasted the time and work.

[flagged]

*points out the 10 Ranged Power available in tier 4, via the proposed new Fletching enhancement*
It should probably be in the capstone, but it is there.

I did see that Caprice but consider the absence of any ranged power feats, do you think that 10 is enough?

[flagged]

*points out the 10 Ranged Power available in tier 4, via the proposed new Fletching enhancement*
It should probably be in the capstone, but it is there.

Do you think it's a mistake to have it in tier 4? I could see where that could lead to some splash poaching, maybe it would be better to go +3 ranged power per core after 1? That would arrive and 15 and prevent the class from being gimped or watered down out the gate.

[flagged]

Mechanics will still have the ability to add intelligence bonuses to ranged and thrown damage? yes? no?

Yeah I would like to have this cleared up as well, it would be a pretty big deal.

[Caprice]

I did see that Caprice but consider the absence of any ranged power feats, do you think that 10 is enough?

In the short term, no, it is not enough to make Mechanic competitve DPS with Monkchers or with melees. I did not expect to see more than that because we have been told that a Ranged balance pass is in the works. I hope that some Ranged Power will come in with the individual ranged feats so that more is available in heroic levels, not just epics, but I am willing to see those changes before I make judgement on them. I think it will be a difficult balance to find because I believe the devs need to make significant improvements to Artificers and Mechanics without significantly improving Monkchers and perhaps not giving much to bow Rangers either. If they gave Mechanics 50 Ranged Power or whatever it would take to make this truly competitive DPS without considering the other changes I expect to see, then Turbine would have to come back and revise this revision almost immediately (well, in a few months).

FWIW personally I am willing to see Ranged damage overall be less than Melee damage overall because the risk of being in melee is still higher (even with the PRR/MRR changes) than it is for fighting at range.

[Caprice]

Do you think it's a mistake to have it in tier 4? I could see where that could lead to some splash poaching, maybe it would be better to go +3 ranged power per core after 1? That would arrive and 15 and prevent the class from being gimped or watered down out the gate.

"Mistake" is too strong a word. I wonder if it will come back to haunt us later. Rogue 4 does lock someone out of taking both Holy Sword and 10K Stars, which would be my immediate concern, but I suspect that someone is going to find a sneaky way to "abuse" it. There are a lot of shuriken builds with enough Rogue levels to take it, for instance, who might count themselves satisfied with losing the extra 3 DEX from the new Shadow Dodge in exchange for 10 RP.

[Blackheartox]

Yeah I would like to have this cleared up as well, it would be a pretty big deal.

dunno, you get it in harper.
Shouldnt really be a issue unless you dont think kta is worth it, spending points in harper doesnt feel dirty

[Qhualor]

~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

O.o

[Blackheartox]

"Mistake" is too strong a word. I wonder if it will come back to haunt us later. Rogue 4 does lock someone out of taking both Holy Sword and 10K Stars, which would be my immediate concern, but I suspect that someone is going to find a sneaky way to "abuse" it. There are a lot of shuriken builds with enough Rogue levels to take it, for instance, who might count themselves satisfied with losing the extra 3 DEX from the new Shadow Dodge in exchange for 10 RP.

Shuri builds lose doubleshoot from t 5 former for some dps, i dont know if the trade off is good since the alt way to build a good chucker was to rely on dshoot since we can now create builds that have a better uptime of stars thrown with dshoot then 10 k.
10 k really isnt a must pick for chuckers for a long time.
I see couple nice repete and gxbow builds currently

[Silverleafeon]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

Sounds like a long welcome change.


By the way, is there any chance at all of slightly lowering the search animation time?

This is something that affects overall party quality of life.
The longer we wait for a trapper with nothing to do but stare at walls...

[flagged]

dunno, you get it in harper.
Shouldnt really be a issue unless you dont think kta is worth it, spending points in harper doesnt feel dirty

yes you could get it there, but for none Harper folks and others who wont have the points, it was pretty core stuff having it on the Mechanic.

I don't see all 6 cores covered in the proposal so it is most likely still there I would just like to see it clarified.