Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Dreppo]

Single Weapon and Two-handed Weapon players can get up to 10 Melee Power via their respective feats... before hitting level 20. The Vanguard Trees have a Tier 2 Action Boost for up to +30 Melee Power. They then have a Tier 3 Enhancement for up to +9 Melee Power on a Stunning Shield/Blow hit ("Follow Up".) Followed by a +10 from the Tier 5 Enhancement "Armored Strength". All before Epic levels and Epic Destinies.

Yet you (Developers) give a, clearly, ranged Enhancement Tree no Ranged Power, until some theoretical Epic levels and Epic Destiny (that don't even currently exist)? Scaling to 200% Ranged Power, when the Ranged Power is 0, is still 0.

If this is any indication to the "upcoming" Ranged Pass (promised even before the complete changes to the Enhancement systems), then some serious development time needs to be allotted to it, before any more Enhancement changes are made. The idea of "flavor" is thrown out, when the "flavor" is only actually viable in the game... in Epic levels. Ya know, because there are 312 quests before getting into Epic content and all.

Didn't read the first post in this thread, did you? There's 10 ranged power in the tree. To go with the ranged attack speed increase, the ranged crit range increase, and ranged crit multiplier increase, I'd say the tree provides quite a lot of ranged DPS.

And when they do the ranged pass, while most of the ranged power will come in epics -- just like most melee power does -- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

[gwonbush]

Is it just me or is Rogue Mechanic now a better archer then a Ranger?

Seriously, I like the inclusion of NON crossbows in the enhancements, thats a WIN IMO. But the addition of giving ALL ammo 80% returning..

Of course you do know that AA and DWS now have some hard shoes to fill with that when you finally get around to do their enhancement pass.. everyone is going to look at 80% ammo returning and think.. man.. shouldn't rangers have that?

Yeah, and rangers have 100% returning arrows. They may only be +1, but the amount of effort a ranger has to put into arrows is creating their infinite supply when they log in for the day.

[ComicRelief]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.
*snip*

Tier One

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.

*snip*

Tier Two

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.

*snip*

Tier Three

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.

*snip*

Tier Four

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.

*snip*

Tier Five

• Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
• Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.

*snip*

• Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.

Sev~

*snip*
We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.
*snip*

Sev~

Some thoughts:

1) Fletching v. Conjure Bolts: I have always been an advocate for mechanics to have an EN "similar to conjure bolts". I also agree that "conjuring" isn't really in the rogue baileywick, per se, so the "fletching" proposal is good. However, seeing as how arcane archers get a tier one EN for 100% returning arrows, and with some house D favor, you can buy 75% returning ammo, I think it should be 75%/85%/100% - it is, after all, a tier 4 EN. But if you really think 100% is just too much, then OK, make it 95%. If you're going to insist on keeping the first level at 50%, then make it 50%/75%/100%.

2a) Sharpshooter - Tiers 1 thru 4: I understand why repeating x-bows are only given +1 damage (even though I disagree with it). However, I see no reason why bows and thrown weapons are not grouped with non-repeating x-bows. If you're going to include bows and thrown, then group them with non-repeaters and give them +2 damage, as well. i.e. let all of the (1) shot per round ranged weapons have +2 damage. Doing the math, repeaters would be +4/+4 (hit/damage) and all other thrown weapons +4/+8 (assuming all four tiers are taken).{Edited incorrect math - originally had totals for all FIVE tiers, not just the first four.}

2b) Sharpshooter - Teir 5: Same argument - if you're going to include bows and thrown, increase their damage to be +6.
{Edit} With all five tiers, repeaters would be +7/+7 (hit/damage) and all other thrown weapons +7/+14.

3) Mechanical Reloader: Yeah, kind of hard to attach a mechanical reloader to a bow. It's OK as is.

4) Sniper: Again, why are bows and thrown only given 1 extra SA die and non-repeating x-bows 2? And why are only non-repeating x-bows given +1[w]? Are you saying you can snipe better with a non-repeating x-bow than you can a bow? Want to leave thrown out? Fine (I don't really see 'thrown' weapons as sniper weapons anyway). But bows should also be given the +2 SA dice and the +1[w]. If you want to give non-repeating x-bows that "something extra", then give them +1.5[w]. I would actually be OK with leaving out bows and thrown altogether.

5) In the original beta for the new EN mechanic "tree", there was a "fast disable" EN. What happened to that? I really liked that idea.

[Silverleafeon]

-- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

Hmm....what about:

Rapid Reload Passive Allows Crossbows to be reloaded about 20% faster. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to ranged Power.


Rapid Shot Passive You can make ranged attacks about 20% faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to Ranged Power.


Precise Shot Passive with Offensive Ranged Stance Your targeted ranged attacks will now pass through friends and foes alike, to strike your target. (No damage will be done other than to your target.) This feat also grants you the Offensive Ranged Stance 'Archer's Focus', which lets you deal progressively more damage while standing still. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to Ranged Power.


Quick Draw Passive Allows the character to switch weapons and armor faster than they would normally be able to. It also increases the rate of fire of thrown weapons, but not of other ranged weapons. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to Ranged Power.

[Ayseifn]

Does the returning from Mechanic stack with returning from ammo or is it just the higher of the two?

[Slasheboy]

Some thoughts:

1) Fletching v. Conjure Bolts: I have always been an advocate for mechanics to have an EN "similar to conjure bolts". I also agree that "conjuring" isn't really in the rogue baileywick, per se, so the "fletching" proposal is good. However, seeing as how arcane archers get a tier one EN for 100% returning arrows, and with some house D favor, you can buy 75% returning ammo, I think it should be 75%/85%/100% - it is, after all, a tier 4 EN. But if you really think 100% is just too much, then OK, make it 95%. If you're going to insist on keeping the first level at 50%, then make it 50%/75%/100%.

2a) Sharpshooter - Tiers 1 thru 4: I understand why repeating x-bows are only given +1 damage (even though I disagree with it). However, I see no reason why bows and thrown weapons are not grouped with non-repeating x-bows. If you're going to include bows and thrown, then group them with non-repeaters and give them +2 damage, as well. i.e. let all of the (1) shot per round ranged weapons have +2 damage. Doing the math, repeaters would be +7/+7 (hit/damage) and all other thrown weapons +7/+14 (assuming all four tiers are taken).

2b) Sharpshooter - Teir 5: Same argument - if you're going to include bows and thrown, increase their damage to be +6.

3) Mechanical Reloader: Yeah, kind of hard to attach a mechanical reloader to a bow. It's OK as is.

4) Sniper: Again, why are bows and thrown only given 1 extra SA die and non-repeating x-bows 2? And why are only non-repeating x-bows given +1[w]? Are you saying you can snipe better with a non-repeating x-bow than you can a bow? Want to leave thrown out? Fine (I don't really see 'thrown' weapons as sniper weapons anyway). But bows should also be given the +2 SA dice and the +1[w]. If you want to give non-repeating x-bows that "something extra", then give them +1.5[w]. I would actually be OK with leaving out bows and thrown altogether.

5) In the original beta for the new EN mechanic "tree", there was a "fast disable" EN. What happened to that? I really liked that idea.

Its very simple: Bows and throwers all have a multishot ability via manyshot and/or Thousand Stars. In fact, bows are even more powerful than repeaters because at Bab 16, manyshot spits out 4 arrows at an attack speed significantly faster than repeaters. Non-repeating crossbows have never and will prolly never have this capability. Unless they follow one of my past suggestions and let rapid reload give an additional bolt per shot to non-repeaters.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Having my doubts that the big crit range/multiplier, extra attack speed, and expanded knockdown are going to be enough to make up for the lost sneak attack and weapon effect damage on Great Xbows as compared to repeaters, but will need to test.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much doubleshot reduction repeaters get?

[G_Lich]

Fusillade should be a feat with a 30 sec CD (math it up vs. a manyshot and it will still come out lower because manyshot dumps 4 arrows at a time, all adrenaline-ready) that should be an option for rogues to take along with arti's and I'm an 8 past life arti player who put the builds down because everything else was getting buffed. Artificer should get this free and fusillade enh could be replaced by something else temporarily if you don't want to give a paid premium class the attention it needs before a freebie class. Rogues still don't get runearms and 2 arti for a runearm is silly when it won't be fired, 4 arti for an extra equip slot while ranging and a no-save mezz is doable though, and right under that multiplier, 16rog/4art might be OK.

At any rate...

Time bomb looks great honestly, love to see those working DC's, interesting effects are actually usable (however you may now notice that people will be blowing boxes in Inferno of the Damned if they get their disable above 115... those have a hardcap and anything above is a critical fail, might want to fix that if it hasn't already been fixed).

Would it be possible to make the +1 attack/+1 damage into plain enhancement bonuses for the sake of spellpower or is that too much? Yeah, probably best left in the magic trees.

[Grugmak]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

[LIST][*]Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.

With it already being so easy to cap ranged attack speed (Shiradi whirling blades + full BAB + just 10% ranged haste is the animation cap), is there any chance we could get a change to throw 2 weapons based on your int/dex similar to shuriken mastery/ninja spy core 2. Throwing 3 weapons per throw is kind of ridiculous but 2 shouldn't be out of the realm of believability, and this IS a tier 5 talent, locking you out of tier 5 for any other tree.

Then again other throwers need love period since 90% of the throwing bonuses in game right now affect shurikens only (10k stars, shuriken mastery, ninja spy core 2) and those only just bring them up to par with other melee weapons/bows. Any thrower besides shuriken is still absolute ****, and some of us would really like to see throwers become viable.

[Dreppo]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much doubleshot reduction repeaters get?

From the wiki page on doubleshot:

Doubleshot converts rate of 1/3 for repeating crossbows. (Crossbow users can theoretically benefit from having 300% Doubleshot.)

[FlaviusMaximus]

Thanks, Dreppo. I hadn't checked the wiki for that information in quite some time. Looks like they have some stuff up there now.

There is a link to a thread on the page in which they state that repeaters get full doubleshot, no penalty as of testing sometime last year. Unable to tell from the wiki page whether this has changed or not.

[IronClan]

Its very simple: Bows and throwers all have a multishot ability via manyshot and/or Thousand Stars. In fact, bows are even more powerful than repeaters because at Bab 16, manyshot spits out 4 arrows at an attack speed significantly faster than repeaters. Non-repeating crossbows have never and will prolly never have this capability. Unless they follow one of my past suggestions and let rapid reload give an additional bolt per shot to non-repeaters.

IMO The game really doesn't need more builds that emphasize maximum procs/affixes per second, machine gun damage is getting old, it already feels like almost every build must aim for max attacks per second instead of max damage per hit, with all the OP weapon speed dependent Thunderforged Procs. All top builds right now are about alacrity, double strike and piling up affixes and proc chances to take advantage of the buzzsaw like attack rate. Of course a lot of this is the desire to maximize mortal fear procs as much as possible, an OP affix as there ever was, andf the Dev's play right into this overpoweredness by putting a bunch new emphasis on attacks per second.

In this regard I like what they're doing with Great crossbow, and would like to see some more trees do this, Perhaps instead of making the throwers in mechanic just like Shurikens they could instead lean towards less attacks but harder hitting attacks (averaging out to similar DPS numbers)?

I've also never understood why a game with historical peak attacks/calculation lag issues (Shroud Lag) and present lag issues would go out of it's way to add more calculations/physics checks, when they could have just as easily gone for bigger damage at a slower attack rate and got the same average DPS.

SWF for example could have been all about the big "decisive blow" like swashblucklers fencing around until one of them gets the opening and kills the other with a single hit... And I can't for the life of me figure out why wearing a shield would speed up your attacks by 20% as opposed to giving you the ability to patently wait for an opening. Both Fighting styles strike me as contrary to verisimilitude but those ships have sailed, at least lets not keep creating new ways to make a Wolf, Monkcher or a Shuricannon please.

[JohnWarlock]

How come Wand and Scroll Mastery is tier 2, when other characters get it at tier 1?
Also if we have Amethyst Arrows out of Threnal that are 50% returning,
what's the change of getting 100% returning ammo? I mean, I'm just most characters
would appreciate carrying a stack of 100% returning plain old ammo just for when they run
out. It wouldn't be anything fancy, and it would be a nice backup, also, can crafting ammo be done
in quantities of 1,000 instead?

Thank you

[Failedlegend]

[*]Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.

Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur

In that case can we work in some PRR/Fort bypass in for Great X-bows...they knock people down already with that kinda punch and bolts rep for piercing armor in IRL it would make sense

and sniper.

Sooooo....would be nice if Assassin got a ranged assassinate before you move on to the next class to allow for some in class synergy.(currently the only way to get close is 6 Ranger Sniper Shot)

Actually relating to the fact that Ranger 6 will still be a popular rogue "splash" is there plans to make AA work with ALL ranged weapons (including thrown)

[Slasheboy]

Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.

Or, can we simply make it a toggle to allow sneak attack on constructs?

[Failedlegend]

Or, can we simply make it a toggle to allow sneak attack on constructs?

Why a toggle, when would you ever NOT want sneak attack?

[Saekee]

The faster cooldown and setting etc is nice for zerging, team play etc but creates issues for other playstyles. Noisemakers should not go off too quickly. Also, it may be advantagous to have a trap endure for a long time. I am not sure how coding affects all of this.

I would like to see traps endure the more time you spend setting them. If that is not possible, then have traps craftable that take longer to set but last much longer. That way there are options, e.g set a quick trap or slow set a long enduring one.

Also the DC on improved traps needs clarification. If it is the DD skill, then is that with gear? If so, when?

I do not care for mechanics using bows--it doesn't feel right, even if it helps my build in my sig. I would shift throwing daggers to the assassin tree, dump bows and stay with repeaters and great xbows. Also, I would add an exploding shot for great xbows, like a grenade launcher.

[kmoustakas]

I just hope similar changes will be made to the artificers too. Especially that +1 competence to threat and multiplier, will make artificers do some damage.

[Failedlegend]

Here are the proposed changes for Constructed Traps

I've never been good at DC requirements so I'll skip that but any chance we can add two things

1. Required Ingredients for Trapsmithing have been reduced (mainly the trap parts) and things rogues don't have access to (like trap the soul) are no longer required

2. Traps parts drop rate has been increased and is granted to everyone in the quest/group (solving the battles over who gets to trap disable)

[*]Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.

I'm sorry I LOVE the flavour of this capstone so I hope we can somehow keep the "Hip Flask" idea but frankly...a capstone ability should NEVER be an action boost, action boosts SUCK!! can we please remove the action boost portion to boost the passive portion a bit (ie. see below for fast disabling idea) Also max 60hp heal as a level 20 ability...ok

[*]Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.

I like the custom mod feel off this

[*]Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.

This is one of my fav abilities in the tree loving the shorter cooldown/set time

One more thing can we add something like the following to the Core 1 ability: For every Core ability reduce Open Lock/Trap Disarm/Search time by 15%

This would grant a Total of 90% reduction in times if you take up to the capstone alowwing rogues to have a one up over splash trappers like Wiz18/Rog2s.

[geoffhanna]

Someone probably mentioned this already, but I note that there are no changes to trap skills of any sort, or trap saves, even though Mechanic is the trappist tree.

One assumes then that Turbine is already pleased with trap-removing abilities as they are?