Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[blerkington]

It's not Tier 3, it's the level 18 Core. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Mechanic_enhancements) They just didn't mention the cores that they didn't change.

It's actually Tier 4...Sev only listed the changes

Hi,

Thanks for that, guys.

[HastyPudding]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

Trap Update

Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:

• The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
• The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
• The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
• The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
• New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
• Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.

• Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
• New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.

Core Abilities

• Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
• Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
• Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
• Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.

Tier One

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Lacerating Shots: The Bleed scales with 200% Ranged Power.
• Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.

Tier Two

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)

Tier Three

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.
• Ooze Flask: The DC is increased to 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier. Also reduces all types of the target's Damage Resistance by 10/20/30 with no saving throw. Damage now scales by 200% Ranged Power.

Tier Four

• Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
• Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
• Leg Shot: Also does +2/+4/+6[W] damage.

Tier Five

• Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
• Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
• Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
• Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.

Sev~

----On traps:
Yes! I used to love crafting traps and grenades to play around with in quests. My artificer still has a stack of noisemakers in his inventory for fun purposes. Now that traps might actually be useful, I can't wait to see how they've been updated.

----On the core abilities:
+2 critical multiplier and +1 threat range with great crossbows? Yes please! That's a 17-20/x4 right off the bat with a standard great crossbow. I've been waiting for a long time for great crossbows to be even remotely useful.

I never liked the mechanic capstone much. Hip Flask seems more of a flavor ability than anything else. Without many sources of ranged power, all of these '200% scaling with ranged power' seems rather trivial. Personally, I'd love to see some more bonuses to point blank range's maximum range.

----On the tiers:
I like the fact that great crossbows gain double the bonuses from sharpshooter, considering they truly need it. Adding thrown weapons to sharpshooter was also a good idea, for build diversity.

I also like that the +10 ranged power is in tier 4; this makes it deep enough where some builds splashing rogue won't take advantage of it, but makes it readily available for artificer/rogue combinations. However, I think it would be better to be +5 ranged power for repeating crossbows, bows, and thrown weapons and +10 for non-repeating crossbows.

Mechanical Reloader sounds awesome for non-repeating crossbows. Great crossbows have been unused because they are severely lacking in attack speed compared to repeaters and thrown builds. However, I would make the bonus 10% for repeaters and bows, 20% for thrown weapons, and 40% for non-repeating crossbows.

Will Time Bomb scale with ranged power, as well?

----Suggestions:
I like the vorpal for great crossbows on a 19-20, however...that makes the great crossbow's redeeming feature, the knock down on a roll of 20, rather pointless. I'm not quite sure what to say about this.

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea of the increased non-repeating crossbow damage. +7 damage over repeaters, bows, and thrown weapons really doesn't seem like that much of an increase, considering repeaters -- the most used mechanic weapon -- attack three times per animation, negating the great crossbow's superior base damage and slow reload speed. I guess I'd have to see this in action with some hard numbers before making a formal opinion on this.

[Dreppo]

I like the vorpal for great crossbows on a 19-20, however...that makes the great crossbow's redeeming feature, the knock down on a roll of 20, rather pointless. I'm not quite sure what to say about this.

Not sure what you mean by this. If vorpalling on 19-20 makes knockdown on 20 useless, then vorpalling on 20 (what every weapon including great crossbow gets now) would also make knockdown on 20 useless, wouldn't it? Mind you, I'm interpreting this enhancement as having the same effect as Perfect Single Weapon Fighting, i.e. redefining vorpal to mean 19-20 rather than just 20, rather than actually granting the weapon the vorpal property. But even if it did grant the weapon the vorpal property, or if you were using a great crossbow that already has the vorpal property (which you can do today), then knockdown on 20 is still not useless. Remember that the vorpal weapon property doesn't always kill the enemy outright; it just deals extra damage if the enemy has more than 1000 HP.

[Ayseifn]

Wow, some big changes here.

Really hard to give feedback without playing with it though, these rogue changes may finally get me to download the Lam client to try some things out.

[Qezuzu]

What will the new traps recipes look like/cost?

[FuryFlash]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

• Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.

Sev~

----Suggestions:
I like the vorpal for great crossbows on a 19-20, however...that makes the great crossbow's redeeming feature, the knock down on a roll of 20, rather pointless. I'm not quite sure what to say about this.

It was my understanding that great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20, as in their vorpal threat range was being increased by one, as per the feat Perfect Single Weapon Fighting:

"While Single Weapon Fighting, your vorpal threat range is increased by +1 (instead of scoring Vorpal hits only on a roll of 20, you score them on a roll of 19-20, assuming you confirm the critical hit.)"

If this is the case, HastyPudding, it would not be making the knockdown feature pointless. In fact, it would be the opposite, since supposedly it would then happen on a 19-20 (assuming it is a Vorpal ability, not just intended to be only ever on 20.) Either way, this should not affect the knockdown poorly.

Could we have confirmation on this for the Sniper enhancement? There has obviously been some confusion on the wording used. Some players are taking this as a Vorpal (instant-kill) ability, while others are taking it as expanding the vorpal threat range.

Thanks

[nibel]

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

At release, Conjure Bolts gave us 100 bolts. A dev (Steelstar?) found it was annoying while playing their artificer, and raised it to 1000 in a sneak buff (not on release notes). Once we found this, we lobbied for the same buff being given to Flame Arrow, and now it gives 500 ammo as well.

Please, make random loot ammo also drop AT LEAST in stacks of 100, make all ammo stackable up to 1000, and raise the capability of all quivers tenfold (so 1k quivers now hold 10k). I would also ask to make all craftable ammo to craft 1000 of them, but that would probably be on the plans for the Cannith Craft pass.

Also, while I'm in dreamland, can we also have a cut on ammo weight? Some of my ranged characters (the dex, int, and wis-based ones) really suffer during low levels because of ammo weight. At high heroics you usually have a colorless slot to put extra strength, and the tomes kick in, but at levels 1-11 if I fill my quivers, I'm at least under medium load constantly.

[Myrddinman]

Not sure what you mean by this. If vorpalling on 19-20 makes knockdown on 20 useless, then vorpalling on 20 (what every weapon including great crossbow gets now) would also make knockdown on 20 useless, wouldn't it? Mind you, I'm interpreting this enhancement as having the same effect as Perfect Single Weapon Fighting, i.e. redefining vorpal to mean 19-20 rather than just 20, rather than actually granting the weapon the vorpal property. But even if it did grant the weapon the vorpal property, or if you were using a great crossbow that already has the vorpal property (which you can do today), then knockdown on 20 is still not useless. Remember that the vorpal weapon property doesn't always kill the enemy outright; it just deals extra damage if the enemy has more than 1000 HP.

I believe this just means it knockdowns on 19-20.

[flagged]

Hi,

There's an awful lot of power in the Tier 3 core (Expert Builder) relative to its cost.

Thanks.

The cost is being a mechanic mate. They are so far behind the curve that they are endangered, take a look at the other core threes of barbs, pallys, and bards you will see that it is less powerful but still a excellent improvement.

[flagged]

I believe this just means it knockdowns on 19-20.

Well the 19-20 vorpal of PSWF is comparative and it works on any weapon, so the scale of a capston creating the vorpal on a 19-20 for just Great crossbows is ideal. There are so few named one in game and by the time Thunderforged ones are taken into account the mechanic is struggling in end game.

All and all a excellent idea.

And this is without even considering the rate of fire issue, before anyone feels inclined to say these excellent Great crossbow changes are OP, I would ask that you take the time in game to pick one up and use it, just to remind you all just how slow the rate of fire for a great is. Then compare that to the number of attacks you can execute using SWF, or really any other form.

[maddong]

I wouldn't move the threat/multiplier bonuses to core 12--it would be too good (ranged holy sword plus sneak attack d6/traps/improved evasion/run speed). That bonus to me makes this the most interesting rogue tree since the acrobat and arguably the assassin trees are inferior to 3 levels of bard from a dps perspective.

[Slasheboy]

Dear Severlin, please consider pushing the xbow profencies down one step.
Current: T1:GXB T3 (lvl6):Repeating LXB T4 (lvl12):Repeating HXB
Proposed: T1:GXB T2 (lvl3):Repeating LXB T4 (lvl6):Repeating HXB

After all, artificers get all of these at lvl 1 plus magical training, rapid reload, and the ability to conjure bolts.

A simple suggestion if you don't want mechanics to conjure bolts, why not make all ranged equipment not require ammunition? They would simply fire vanilla ammo when no bolts or arrows are equipped. If coding wise its too difficult, give all classes a feat named "Use normal ammo" which allows us to conjure vanilla ammunition called Basic arrow/bolt/throwing axe/throwing dagger (split into subfeats for each category), and is coded as a single arrow/bolt/axe/dagger that is 100% repeating. This allows all ranged classes to not have a storage problem. In the same vein, why not make the conjured artificer bolts 100% returning?

[Slasheboy]

I just realized you don't even need a feat, just sell 100% returning arrows/bolts/throwers in the shops and also provide them to new characters. Problem solved.

[blerkington]

The cost is being a mechanic mate. They are so far behind the curve that they are endangered, take a look at the other core threes of barbs, pallys, and bards you will see that it is less powerful but still a excellent improvement.

Hi,

Some of the other posters cleared up a misunderstanding for me.

I'd misread the initial post and thought that the core under discussion was available much earlier.

If it's not available until level 18 it's a completely different story.

Thanks.

[draven1]

What I want to see on new epic mechanic

[Slasheboy]

I see that fletching is a T4, which assuming to make space for it, the grenades aren't "linked" enhancements.

If so, may I make a suggestion:

Please give us Sniper Shot from Deepwood Stalker Core 3, putting it in either T2, or maybe T3 and bumping Ooze flask down to a T2.
For a class that gets so many ranged sneak attack die, we need ways to apply those SA dice.

If you really really want to keep sniper shot a Deepwood only ability, please consider a grenade that doesn't arc (maybe a special shot that explodes on hit?) that makes enemies bluffed without requiring a DC check.
If not, consider bumping legshot down to (+1W/+2W/+3W) but also bluffs and down the cd to 6 secs. I would even settle for (+0.5W/+1W/+1.5W).

Please, help us rogues to be able to apply our SA dice even when we have aggro (especially for soloers who have no one to shed aggro to).

I really do not want to have to always dip 6 levels into Ranger just for Sniper Shot for xbow archers to be viable.

And consider taking away rapid reload entirely. Its an unnecessary feat tax for crossbow archers. Or if I can be greedy, put it in one of the cores. Like l've said earlier, artificer level one auto grants so many things.

Regarding the restriction of no runearms for mechanics, how about just allowing us to get the imbue? We need a way to deal with non-sneak attack able monsters. Or just let us sneak attack them at 33% damage (1d2 per SA dice). The game is fulled to the brim with undeads, constructs and elementals after all.

[Slasheboy]

Finally, great job with all the new T5s, Severlin.

I'm really excited to play with all of them, especially mechanical reloader. I hope you put this enhancement into the arty tree as well.

Maybe put some of the speed bonuses (or more speed bonuses) on lacerating shot for non-repeating/great crossbows? This would go a long way into making them potentially viable once again.

Dear Turbine, please don't poach Severlin for LotRO. This game will just fester and die.

[Cleanincubus]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

Single Weapon and Two-handed Weapon players can get up to 10 Melee Power via their respective feats... before hitting level 20. The Vanguard Trees have a Tier 2 Action Boost for up to +30 Melee Power. They then have a Tier 3 Enhancement for up to +9 Melee Power on a Stunning Shield/Blow hit ("Follow Up".) Followed by a +10 from the Tier 5 Enhancement "Armored Strength". All before Epic levels and Epic Destinies.

Yet you (Developers) give a, clearly, ranged Enhancement Tree no Ranged Power, until some theoretical Epic levels and Epic Destiny (that don't even currently exist)? Scaling to 200% Ranged Power, when the Ranged Power is 0, is still 0.

If this is any indication to the "upcoming" Ranged Pass (promised even before the complete changes to the Enhancement systems), then some serious development time needs to be allotted to it, before any more Enhancement changes are made. The idea of "flavor" is thrown out, when the "flavor" is only actually viable in the game... in Epic levels. Ya know, because there are 312 quests before getting into Epic content and all.

[Silverleafeon]

Dear Turbine, please don't poach Severlin for LotRO. This game will just fester and die.

Considering the rate at which LotRO consumes our directors, I would think Sev might be wise to think twice about moving...

[Xionanx]

Is it just me or is Rogue Mechanic now a better archer then a Ranger?

Seriously, I like the inclusion of NON crossbows in the enhancements, thats a WIN IMO. But the addition of giving ALL ammo 80% returning..

Of course you do know that AA and DWS now have some hard shoes to fill with that when you finally get around to do their enhancement pass.. everyone is going to look at 80% ammo returning and think.. man.. shouldn't rangers have that?