Let's Talk: Killer DM Mode

[MadCookieQueen]

Background:

I know there is a sub-section of players that want even *more* difficulty in existing content. We have to make decisions about where to spend our time, and we think our time would be better spent making new challenging content with new Mythic treasures to reward those challenges than trying to back track and introduce difficulty where a lot of players don't want it.

We've considered a Killer DM mode - something even harder than elite - where content always scaled to 6 people, champions have nastier effects, and monsters did more damage. The problem, outside of implementation time, we ran into is this; what could we possibly use to reward players for playing it? We don't want to add even more XP into the game. Higher level loot drops aren't really useful while leveling since it already out levels players on higher difficulties. No one is going to grind for power items if they will level past them quickly. Our data shows that such a difficulty would probably sit unused for a vast majority of the player base. As much as the idea intrigues me, I don't know if that's a good use of our time.

We believe that the best use of our time is to provide difficulty in newer content.

Sev~

*Emphasis mine

I'm pulling this out of another thread about game balance as I think this is worth it's own forum post for kicking around ideas.


Let's say that the devs were granted time (wish spell) and could put some resources into this.

What would a Killer DM Mode would really look like? (Dungeon that actually randomizes? Raid area ala Thunderholme? New Quest of d00m! Perhaps a Terrasque battle?)

What kinds of rewards would they need to put into a Killer DM Mode that would make it viable for people to want to group and run it for longer than a week? (In game achievements/leader boards. Quality of life items like spell component pouches, free feat respect tokens, amazing loot that doesn't invalidate previous loot (like true seeing augments)...please oh please not more new ingredients...we have tons already)


For the sake of argument let's just make some basic assumptions:

1. This is NOT going to be fresh out of Korthos new player friendly...sorry but you'll need some oomph (something you can only really get for playing the game for longer than 2 months) to get through it. I know that's NOT fair...but this isn't about fair this is about giving some extra challenge to the game. Not all content is created equal.
2. There should be absolutely no way you can solo zerg this...meaning...it's like old Shroud where you waited 20 minutes for a healer...pre-MoTU epic style
3. You can fail this...the threat is real enough


And let's talk...

[Robbenklopper]

For the sake of argument let's just make some basic assumptions:

1. This is NOT going to be fresh out of Korthos new player friendly...sorry but you'll need some oomph (something you can only really get for playing the game for longer than 2 months) to get through it. I know that's NOT fair...but this isn't about fair this is about giving some extra challenge to the game. Not all content is created equal.
2. There should be absolutely no way you can solo zerg this...meaning...it's like old Shroud where you waited 20 minutes for a healer...pre-MoTU epic style
3. You can fail this...the threat is real enough


And let's talk...

That´s to the core of what i would wish for too, totally on your side. I want a death incarnate mode or "Core rule Play", teamplay absolutely recommended, no solo, no zerg. Real danger, Mobs with Player feats, geared up and EDs, one-shooter or instakiller.. Let´s go.

So i think we had a test on that with the first release of champs. I see it coming with the threads ... "game is to difficult", fix this or nerf that. New "Standard" would be Killer DM Mode and we get the next threads "Game is too easy on EE" and and and.
Reward (items): None other than HE/EE. Why: for just "becoz". Maybe an honor-system or like that you Need to fill to get a reward. anyway, i would just like to have the fun.

[Brac]

Reward is always the big question. I feel this is where Turbine highly under utilizes cosmetics. People love to look cool in the game. Many power gamers, the same ones who would play killer mode, will work harder and longer to complete the perfect look then to slightly upgrade a piece of gear. I would bet the mirrors of glammering had one of the best store debuts ever. To not create a power creep, the rewards should be cosmetics. They could also have unique pets. That is something else people seem to really like that has no effect on the power level. Convenience items are also great. The Royal Guard Mask is an item still farmed for in a dead quest chain. The ability isn't used in combat but is still desireable.

[MadCookieQueen]

So we had a test on that with the first release of champs. I see it coming with the threads ... "game is to difficult", fix this or nerf that. New "Standard" would be Killer DM Mode and we get the next threads "Game is too easy on EE" and and and.
Reward (items): None other than HE/EE. Why: for just "becoz". Maybe an honor-system or like that you Need to fill to get a reward. anyway, i would just like to have the fun.

There will always be "game is too difficult" threads...they could put in a My Little Pony dungeon where Rainbow Dash dies in three hits and people would still complain about ti being difficult. Such is life...so let's just ignore them for now^^

I don't want "standard" to be Killer DM Mode...which is why I don't' want loot that invalidates previous loot or becomes best in slot. i'd like it to be more creature comforts rewards. Where it's things like spell component pouches (hey free up that inventory space!), true seeing augments, misc store items (like the old anniversary cards rewards...not the cards...just the rewards) and etc. Something where the reward is cool enough but not going to break the game.

Reward is always the big question. I feel this is where Turbine highly under utilizes cosmetics. People love to look cool in the game. Many power gamers, the same ones who would play killer mode, will work harder and longer to complete the perfect look then to slightly upgrade a piece of gear. I would bet the mirrors of glammering had one of the best store debuts ever. To not create a power creep, the rewards should be cosmetics. They could also have unique pets. That is something else people seem to really like that has no effect on the power level. Convenience items are also great. The Royal Guard Mask is an item still farmed for in a dead quest chain. The ability isn't used in combat but is still desireable.

more pets and cosmetics please! New hair...funky colors...baby troll pet...etc.

[Wh070aa]

Simple. Reward item augment crystals. Make up some more unique ones, preferably class based (Extra bard songs, extra rage(uses/duration), faster sneaking speed, extra caster level(school/element), and stuff). Make them non stack able and weaker/higher level than unique items.

Also maybe some aura buffs for allies. Maybe movment speed for allies, or DR aura, or extra temp HP or Reflex save on allies only clickies.

Maybe Some sort of named quivers, or arrows too? Like Permanent/endless arrows and bolts? Named shuriken, and non repeating bows, with really good stats? Small chance cosmetic pets? Higter chance for masterwork and slotted random loot?

[walkin_dude]

Reward (items): None other than HE/EE. Why: for just "becoz". Maybe an honor-system or like that you Need to fill to get a reward. anyway, i would just like to have the fun.

Killer DMs are stingier than regular ones, anyway, right?

[legendkilleroll]

Im not into the achievement section so anything like that i wouldnt care for

Agree on the rewards not being game breaking in terms of how much power they give, cosmetics, unique augments, things like jibbers blade

No re entry allowed

Id like no multibox too but not sure how that would work, if its made impossible to solo that would atleast help or if the chests didnt actually drop rare stuff

[arkonas]

Background:



*Emphasis mine

I'm pulling this out of another thread about game balance as I think this is worth it's own forum post for kicking around ideas.


Let's say that the devs were granted time (wish spell) and could put some resources into this.

What would a Killer DM Mode would really look like? (Dungeon that actually randomizes? Raid area ala Thunderholme? New Quest of d00m! Perhaps a Terrasque battle?)

What kinds of rewards would they need to put into a Killer DM Mode that would make it viable for people to want to group and run it for longer than a week? (In game achievements/leader boards. Quality of life items like spell component pouches, free feat respect tokens, amazing loot that doesn't invalidate previous loot (like true seeing augments)...please oh please not more new ingredients...we have tons already)


For the sake of argument let's just make some basic assumptions:

1. This is NOT going to be fresh out of Korthos new player friendly...sorry but you'll need some oomph (something you can only really get for playing the game for longer than 2 months) to get through it. I know that's NOT fair...but this isn't about fair this is about giving some extra challenge to the game. Not all content is created equal.
2. There should be absolutely no way you can solo zerg this...meaning...it's like old Shroud where you waited 20 minutes for a healer...pre-MoTU epic style
3. You can fail this...the threat is real enough


And let's talk...

my take on it would be minor rewards or things we have seen but can only get in it. its very hard. no reentry as someone said. just a little more xp then ee maybe +1 loot or something. doesn't even have to be a +1 either. its all about the challenge. you don't need to reward us devs. people have been seeking challenges and i don't see why it couldn't be implemented just for them. everyone else can still do casual/normal/hard/elite still while the hardcore move into a new difficulty. you will see groups that will want challenges while the rest will fill into whatever they're comfortable with.

[mikarddo]

Killer DM mode should be equal to Elite except for the following:
- no scaling down for fewer people in group
- all mobs are Champs including minibosses and bosses (need to add champ mode for bosses)
- ship buffs are dispelled when you zone in
- no reentry
- no rez cakes
- each champ chest in Killer DM mode (and only Killer DM mode) has a tiny, tiny, tiny chance to drop "illusion / cosmetic race" (all the playable races + even more rarely kobold). Tiny being something like 1 in a million (and less so for kobold) so these remain truly rare. These cosmetics are never made available elsewhere especially not in the store or from lower difficulties.

XP, loot, favor, Saga etc remain exactly as in Elite.
The reward is mainly the extra challenge (and bragging rights), secondarily the tiny chance for illusion items and tertiarily the extra mystical remnants.

This adds the challenge needed, a place to farm "bragging rights" and a chance for something unique without adding actual power.

Edit: Note that this setup works across all levels except level 1-5 where champs dont spawn.

[axel15810]

Since XP and loot is out of the question, as the devs said they don't want to move in that direction. My ideas -

- Cosmetics: create a handful of Killer DM exclusive cosmetics and give them a low drop rate in any Killer DM mode chest. Could include pets, hair dyes, cosmetic helms or armors.

- Higher mysterious remnant drops from all Killer DM champions

- Endgame killer DMs should give an improved chance for +5 and +6 tomes to drop, as well as skill tomes. This alone would give a ton of incentive to run these

- Low chance for consumable drops including jewlers toolkits, slayer pots and XP pots. Only the lower tier of these items would drop as to not to compete with the DDOstore

- Very low drop chance for a lesser heart in any killer DM end boss chest, somewhere around 0.3% seems right. Huge incentive right here for players to run Killer DM, even with a very low drop rate

All of these rewards must require your character be at or below the effective quest level or they don't drop. This requirement ensures that these rewards could not be farmed overlevel. For epics, we may want to change this requirement to any epic quest depending on how Epic DM mode scales...but we want to keep an incentive to run endgame killer DM and not have all level 28's farming a lower level epic like Lords of Dust for their rewards. So that would be an issue the devs would have to wrestle with in the future.

[Qhualor]

I find it interesting you start a thread like this after what you said about mimics.

[hit_fido]

What would a Killer DM Mode would really look like? (Dungeon that actually randomizes? Raid area ala Thunderholme? New Quest of d00m! Perhaps a Terrasque battle?)

- Sufficiently randomized traps with very high spot/search checks - they can get away with them not being "real" random as long as they're random enough and deadly enough to require consideration and planning.

- Champion density approaching 100%. Champion buffs all doubled or tripled.

- Additional selection of champion buffs as if similarly itemized as players: blur, lesser displacement, speed, ghostly, deathblock, freedom of movement, riposte, improved paralyzing, tendon slice, metalline/aligned, regeneration

- Caster mobs frequently using disjunction and dispel. Coordinated caster attacks (caster one disjunct, dispel; caster two energy drain, finger of death).

- Archer mobs using improved precise shot, many shot and crippling effects.

- Melee mobs using stunning blow, trip, and hamstring.

- No resurrection shrines. Rest shrines are use limited (e.g. this rest shrine can only be used once by two players). Or on second thought - no rest shrines. Keep it simple - you go in with whatever you have and you're not getting more.

- No reentry, of course.

Quite a lot of that seems feasible for existing quests save for the randomized traps. It would be mostly applying new mechanics to existing mobs or new rules to quest environments like no shrines.

What kinds of rewards would they need to put into a Killer DM Mode that would make it viable for people to want to group and run it for longer than a week?

The reward needs to incentivize repeated runs over time. The only way to do this is through grind mechanics that most people don't want, or to have this difficulty level abstain from giving out marginally better items that once acquired eliminate the incentive and instead reward in bragging rights, and probably Turbine Points that can be used for whatever the highest achieving players want. Bragging and points would be tied to actual achievement through a leaderboard that somehow rewards the top group completions. Because leaderboard positions could change, improve, drop, there's some incentive to continue trying to secure and retain the top spots and keep accruing the fame/tp.

[hit_fido]

- ship buffs are dispelled when you zone in

Yes, that is a good one too.

[MadCookieQueen]

I find it interesting you start a thread like this after what you said about mimics.

Big difference between what I didn't like about the mimic "event" and discussing adding a different level of difficulty.

These at least are opt-in instead of failed opt-out.


and for once, I know this is difficult...try to stay on topic instead of attempting to derail the thread with bad cheap shots.

[LightBear]

If they're going to introduce mythic they better do it as levels 28 to 34.
And any gear from there should have ml:24.

I'd say 20 before but that's probably pushing it.

(You know I'm looking at you greensteel!)

[arkonas]

- Sufficiently randomized traps with very high spot/search checks - they can get away with them not being "real" random as long as they're random enough and deadly enough to require consideration and planning.

- Champion density approaching 100%. Champion buffs all doubled or tripled.

- Additional selection of champion buffs as if similarly itemized as players: blur, lesser displacement, speed, ghostly, deathblock, freedom of movement, riposte, improved paralyzing, tendon slice, metalline/aligned, regeneration

- Caster mobs frequently using disjunction and dispel. Coordinated caster attacks (caster one disjunct, dispel; caster two energy drain, finger of death).

- Archer mobs using improved precise shot, many shot and crippling effects.

- Melee mobs using stunning blow, trip, and hamstring.

- No resurrection shrines. Rest shrines are use limited (e.g. this rest shrine can only be used once by two players). Or on second thought - no rest shrines. Keep it simple - you go in with whatever you have and you're not getting more.

- No reentry, of course.

Quite a lot of that seems feasible for existing quests save for the randomized traps. It would be mostly applying new mechanics to existing mobs or new rules to quest environments like no shrines.



The reward needs to incentivize repeated runs over time. The only way to do this is through grind mechanics that most people don't want, or to have this difficulty level abstain from giving out marginally better items that once acquired eliminate the incentive and instead reward in bragging rights, and probably Turbine Points that can be used for whatever the highest achieving players want. Bragging and points would be tied to actual achievement through a leaderboard that somehow rewards the top group completions. Because leaderboard positions could change, improve, drop, there's some incentive to continue trying to secure and retain the top spots and keep accruing the fame/tp.

im ok with there being rest shrines still that doesnt bother me. it will already be very difficult. i dunno know if would give them all of those abilities. some of them sure. as for the leaderboards i really don't want to see that. that will bring out elitists. no thanks. we need less drama then more. other then that some of the other seemed decent.

[brian14]

No unique rewards at all, except possibly cosmetics. Not even higher occurrence of regular rewards (higher than elite, I mean). Any unique reward which is actually useful would lead to more power creep, as someone would come up with builds around these rewards. Bragging rights should be the only reason to run "Killer DM" mode.

[depositbox]

I find it interesting you start a thread like this after what you said about mimics.

I find it interesting you said anything after what you have said in your last posts, so

[Vargouille]

If they're going to introduce mythic they better do it as levels 28 to 34.
And any gear from there should have ml:24.

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

[Monkey-Boy]

A major point of adding a new difficulty would be for it to span across the entire existing game, ideally. We're fairly confident we can make Epic Elite difficult enough with new quests for end game, without the somewhat significant task of introducing an entire new difficulty and the issues that entails.

but can you make enough quests? or do you expect people who are done with their leveling to run nothing but ToEE for 6 months?