You know the game is not balanced properly when...

[BigErkyKid]

For those seeking an edge, balance is impossible to achieve, since they will seek the edge until its found. And then spread it around, skewing the perception of what works or not.

I do not agree. What happens is that this game is full of all mechanics that the new devs don't fully master. How long did it take for them to understand that blitz was working ranged? And that slayer arrow + many shot + adrenaline was the uber boss killer?

Maybe they need to make sure that foundation of balance is solid, simplifying this strata of old systems that don't mix well.

[Chai]

Good! That would be actually awesome. I DO NOT WANT all classes to be like pallies and barbs (or bards).

But you asked what happened to the oomph and claimed they used too much of it on paladin and bard. What did occur is a good portion of it was nerfed out of new paladin and new bard, leaving less overhead to make new rogue and new fighter much better than they are.

Demanding nerfs of the new, holds back improvements to the old when their time comes.

When people provide feedback that the next revamped class is "meh" they will have those who demanded nerfs of paladins and bards to thank, because it was those nerfs which took away the overhead to improve anything else.

[bartharok]

I do not agree. What happens is that this game is full of all mechanics that the new devs don't fully master. How long did it take for them to understand that blitz was working ranged? And that slayer arrow + many shot + adrenaline was the uber boss killer?

Maybe they need to make sure that foundation of balance is solid, simplifying this strata of old systems that don't mix well.

The problem is still having a handful people building, and thousands breaking every system.

[Gempoult]

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.

Yes, please, do more Kinda sad and funny in the same time.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

All things being relative the ONE thing that prevents DDO from EVER being balanced is the absence of a live DUNGEON MASTER to bend, create and modify rules and dice rolls.

Using an off the cuff statistic model based on a bell curve with...

-Completely casual players with no desires to be uber elite anything and really happy with whatever loot and play experience they get on the Lower side.

-FOTM perfect builds doing nothing but EE Raids, EE solo, EE loot grind, EE Epeen Timed runs and however the accepted Uberleet screaming for more challenge crowd views the shy and elusive "endgame" (like the cake...it's a lie) at the Upper end of the challenge curve

-and ALL the other flavors of DDO's builds and play styles making up the BULK of the player base bell curve.

I would have to say the game seems pretty balanced in the absence of a live DM for the majority of the player base.

Whether you are climbing the bell curve in difficulty and game knowledge, staying somewhere in the middle or declining into the depths of NEED MOAR CHALLENGE RAWR at the extreme StonedTripleCompletionistEverything end it is quite balanced and as it should be.

Changing your perspective to the DDO player base as a whole instead of focusing on just what you want out the game goes along way in increasing your enjoyment of it.

[BigErkyKid]

But you asked what happened to the oomph and claimed they used too much of it on paladin and bard. What did occur is a good portion of it was nerfed out of new paladin and new bard, leaving less overhead to make new rogue and new fighter much better than they are.

Demanding nerfs of the new, holds back improvements to the old when their time comes.

I don't want this kind of OMPH. I just commented on how rogues are getting the short end of the stick.

Yes, I DO NOT WANT MORE OP CLASSES THAT PACK EVERYTHING ON THEIR OWN!

You'll excuse the yelling, I just want to be very clear.

[BigErkyKid]

.

I would have to say the game seems pretty balanced in the absence of a live DM for the majority of the player base.

You would be wrong. You can find plenty of bizarre examples of lack of balance mentioned in this thread.

[Blackheartox]

And that feedback is why they don't have the overhead to improve any other class as much as they did bards and paladins. They cant make rogues as good as post revamp paladin, because people complained until it got nerfed, and people still complain about them being OP after the nerf.

Comparing new paladin to old fighter and old rogue and demanding balance between new paladin and old fighter / old rogue takes away the over head to make new fighter and new rogue much better.

But...
No matter what people tell me.
I just cannot understand..
Why did they add the ability to build..
Pure ee sefhealing barbs.
That just makes 0 sense to me.

And dps paladins..
ANd dps bards.

I mean cmon, if they alrdy went out of control and turned my understanding of dnd upside down, then for gods sake, give me rogues that are top dps with sneak.
At least 1 thing that makes sense

[lyrecono]

...the creator of the Pale Master Guide is building wizards with melee capacity to deal with red named mobs Melee wizard.

I already commented on how blanket immunities and bosses with hundreds of thousands of HPs are damaging specialists and favoring raw DPS only (LINK). This is just an example of how down the line we are.

I am recently playing a barbarian for the first time. This is not a class I enjoy playing, I really dislike just cleaving to death masses of mobs. Yes, it requires skill, but I couldn't help but notice how self contained the class is. It packs heals, it has some CC via destinies and it has raw DPS (the best kind of DPS in DDO) to clear trash and bosses alike.

Aside from flavor reasons, why play any of the "old" classes and not stick to the uber powerful new overlords? Paladin, barbarian and bard, when build properly, pack absolutely everything you need for 99% of the game. Other classes do not.

Is this where the game is heading? Are we going to be seeing more of this update after update? Where will it stop, when all classes are self contained to the point that you can beat solo any content at any difficulty and not be considered an achievement? And if this does not happen and some classes are not upgraded to this uber level, won't some styles be unfairly penalized?

Thoughts, comments?

meh, when cap was 20, casters ruled over everything, the wiz18/rog2 could solo any quest in the game
the cap was raised to 25 and kiters (shiradi sorcs&monckers mostly) ruled the scene.
now a few melee's do, big deal
after being shafted for 7 years, let them have some fun

Is this the thread where we all post "you know the game is unblanced when..." anecdotes and jokes?

Ok here's mine:

You know the game is not balanced when barbarians have more healing amp than paladins.
Paladins having heal amp is strange to begin with, atleast now barbs heal the same % as a standard pali
You know the game is not balanced when bards out DPS rogues and the dev excuse is that rogues can do out of combat "things".
Bards should be about social skills and buffs, true but: a rog sould never be dps but a trap/skill master with the occasional back stab skill, not the hack and slash monster people think he should be.
You know the game is not balanced when barbs have better healing, twice the HP and 2-3x the PRR of a rogue, and more DPS too.
Uhm.... barbs should have more hp then a rog (d6 vs a d12 with con being the first or second most important stat?), a barb should have better prr to compensate for the lack luster dr,- in the game, a barb is a fronline melee, a rog is not, it's a backstabber. The better healing stems out of the game mechanics of ddo. A barb should have better alround dps, a rog should only have situational dps (sneack attack), this isn't WoW.
You know the game is not balanced when an assassin puts everything into intelligence for assassinate and is still worse than a bard.
Bards are op, or rog is gimped, or mobs are badly statted or... and the list goes on.....
You know the game is not balanced when a monk is better off taking 8 fighter levels to use a sword.
uhm, "god hand builds have been realy popular for years....
You know the game is not balanced when a ranger is better off taking monk levels to be better with a bow.
I assumed it was for the stances and free feats, but it's been a whille since i did my moncker lifes, anyways, are you building a ranger or a ranged toon by picking the best pieces?
i bet you can build a pure ranged ranger and get it to 28 by sticking to normal or hard, you don't need monk levels.
You know the game is not balanced when a TWF ranger is better off taking 15 levels of paladin.
thats not a twf ranger but a twf paladin
You know the game is not balanced when a wizard is better off in heavy armour.
Elderich knight is a well known pnp class and was already being done by multiple means in ddo when the cap was 20, anyways, said wizard should drink/eat less suger and learn not to be in the front line all the time

Could do plenty more just getting the ball rolling.

As you can see, it's all a manner of perspective

[Fedora1]

This is nothing new.

For years casters were king of kills and content crushers, while all melees were left far far behind.

Now melees are getting the edge and wizards and sorcs are no longer alone at the top of the mountain. The pendulum will swing back again.

I waited for years for my favorite class (pally) to become what they are now. For the first time ever I took a barbarian past L7 and enjoyed it. For the first time ever I rolled up a bard and ran all the way to cap.

I never had a problem with rogues and they seem to be getting a decent pass, maybe not what bards/pallys/barbs got but we will see.

Anxiously awaiting a TWF and ranger pass.

Casters had YEARS as top dog, they can wait a little while for their turn to come around again.

Just my 2 cents, no offence to the OP who is correct about balance. Obtaining balance in the game is difficult.

[Chai]

I don't want this kind of OMPH. I just commented on how rogues are getting the short end of the stick.

Yes, I DO NOT WANT MORE OP CLASSES THAT PACK EVERYTHING ON THEIR OWN!

You'll excuse the yelling, I just want to be very clear.

Rogues got the short end of the stick because paladins and bards stick was made short, due to the nerfs demanded of the new versions of them, thus taking away a good chunk of the overhead to make rogues better.

The better choice is to have a small amount of patience during the revamps, revamp ALL first, them compare the new versions of ALL to eachother, then have ONE round of nerfs.

Instead what we got is nerfing after each revamp, which in turn removes most of the overhead to make future revamps much better.

[Blackheartox]

Rogues got the short end of the stick because paladins and bards stick was made short, due to the nerfs demanded of the new versions of them, thus taking away a good chunk of the overhead to make rogues better.

The better choice is to have a small amount of patience during the revamps, revamp ALL first, them compare the new versions of ALL to eachother, then have ONE round of nerfs.

Instead what we got is nerfing after each revamp, which in turn removes most of the overhead to make future revamps much better.

But is it really that hard to check if your revamp was not done correctly?
Just go click on achivments and read for 10 minutes, log into the game make a super chat with your dev powers and test it.
Literally takes half hour to test if something is out of ballance.
Is that really so hard?

[BigErkyKid]

Rogues got the short end of the stick because paladins and bards stick was made short, due to the nerfs demanded of the new versions of them, thus taking away a good chunk of the overhead to make rogues better.

The better choice is to have a small amount of patience during the revamps, revamp ALL first, them compare the new versions of ALL to eachother, then have ONE round of nerfs.

Instead what we got is nerfing after each revamp, which in turn removes most of the overhead to make future revamps much better.

What?

No, please do NOT do that. What you are saying seems like breaking the game to me.

Step 1: Overpower some classes that will pack everything on their own like no other has before (DPS, defense, heals).

Step 2: Overpower every single class to that level.

Step 3: Realize everything is overpowered and nerf everyone.

How many years until we recognize that Step 1 was wrong? Why even follow this schedule at all? It seems absurd.

In addition, do you realize that every update takes 3-4 months and they upgrade one class at a time? Do we have to wait 3 x 10 months, or shy of 3 years, to realize that this was a mistake?

No, I do NOT like the way they upgraded the classes. They just washed out their flavor to make them all around OP builds. With paladins and barbs they even went as far as hurting multi classing.

I think they are killing what is left of DnD in the game and in the process making even more a non cooperative XP grind zerg fest.

I say a big NO thank you, I don't want these changes, I don't like what you are doing to the game.

[Monkey-Boy]

Dude . . . if PMs had good red-name DPS they'd be more broken than the brokenest thing we have in DDO.

Do you remember the DOT-era? When casters were putting out as much red-name damage as all but the best melees? That was worse than what we have now.

It's balanced that a PM has bad red-named DPS.

[Chai]

But is it really that hard to check if your revamp was not done correctly?
Just go click on achivments and read for 10 minutes, log into the game make a super chat with your dev powers and test it.
Literally takes half hour to test if something is out of ballance.
Is that really so hard?

Thats still comparing revamped classes to not revamped classes to determine balance. This is an invalid comparison which disallows progress.

Not allowing the first and second revamps to upset that balance clings to the belief that every class should only be as powerful as they are currently, never improving.

The better choice is to have a small amount of patience during the revamps, revamp ALL first, them compare the new versions of ALL to each other, then have ONE round of nerfs. At such point the game has a new valid comparison for balance as all classes are post revamp.

[Monkey-Boy]

But is it really that hard to check if your revamp was not done correctly?
Just go click on achivments and read for 10 minutes, log into the game make a super chat with your dev powers and test it.
Literally takes half hour to test if something is out of ballance.
Is that really so hard?

it's not hard. But it would require people to actually test stuff and not theory craft.

[Monkey-Boy]

The better choice is to have a small amount of patience during the revamps, revamp ALL first, them compare the new versions of ALL to each other, then have ONE round of nerfs. At such point the game has a new valid comparison for balance as all classes are post revamp.

it's taking Turbine way to long for people to be patient about this, if they upped to two-three classes an update then maybe people would be more patient. but at this rate they'll be done in 2018 . . . who thinks DDO will still be getting updates then?

[Chai]

What?

No, please do NOT do that. What you are saying seems like breaking the game to me.

Step 1: Overpower some classes that will pack everything on their own like no other has before (DPS, defense, heals).

Step 2: Overpower every single class to that level.

Step 3: Realize everything is overpowered and nerf everyone.

This is incorrect. What I am saying is:

1. Revamp one class at a time, realizing that revamped classes will be more powerful than classes which have not been revamped yet - this is temporary.

2. Complete revamp of all classes, then take how they are balanced against eachother into consideration.

3. Nerf anything that is out of line one time to achieve new game balance.

This is better than nerfing after every single revamp due to knee jerk reaction by those who are comparing 2015 paladin to 2012 fighter. Lack of patience to wait for all revamps is what kills progress.

[BigErkyKid]

It's balanced that a PM has bad red-named DPS.

I would concede that a PM has to be as bad at DPSing red-named mobs as traditional melees are at soloing trash groups.

You will agree with me that this is not the case.

It cannot be that some classes are good at everything. Then all classes have to be good at everything for balance, then we might as well remove the Dungeons and Dragons tag from the game. Call it Soloing Online - Forever Alone.

[Chai]

I would concede that a PM has to be as bad at DPSing red-named mobs as traditional melees are at soloing trash groups.

You will agree with me that this is not the case.

It cannot be that some classes are good at everything. Then all classes have to be good at everything for balance, then we might as well remove the Dungeons and Dragons tag from the game. Call it Soloing Online - Forever Alone.

D&D was never a balanced game. After level 8 or so theres no reason other than flavor to roll a pure melee. If you wanted the game to be more D&D, PMs would be doing everything, and the other classes would be riding in a wagon hitched and pulled by the barbarian.

This "balance" people keep bringing up is an MMO thing, not a D&D thing.

One of the things which resulted from game balance complaints in D%D, was 4e. Lets not 4e DDO. Please, think of the kittens.