Producer's Letter

[TackW5]

I thoroughly enjoyed, and thus thoroughly miss, the N/H/E loot and the ML steps it had. It was particularly gratifying when the item was a good fit for the next life I had planned. I hit level 12 and I have a shiny new Axe of Adaxus. I hit level 13 and, lo, I have an even better AoA. Ding! I have yet one more sweet new weapon, now for 14. The developers entertain me three times with, what I am assuming is much less than the work of making 3 distinct items. And, the ML steps are precisely what minimized the, "Oh, I just pulled the normal version," letdown if it was something for the future. And, if it were something for the now it worked as well. If I am running an E quest at 2 levels over and get the version powered for the normal level, that is a bummer. Conversely, why have a level 12 run drop ML 14 items? I can wait a life for a new item, but not 2 levels.

In the past, drop rates have been lame. My group has run a whole GH chain and seen 0 named items, but the new rates seem good.

The only thing I dislike about the N/H/E scheme is when I run a whole chain on E, the end rewards are N.

On a separate note, the key word in that definition of entitlement is "given." Rewards are earned while gifts are given. Different actions should earn different rewards.

[Robai]

I still don't understand what people didn't like about norm/hard/elite loot.

Speaking as someone who has just completely given up on Elite because of champions (I am not complaining - it is a good thing that elite now requires more skill than I have), I should feel like I am missing out.

I don't have problem with

1. Norm/Hard/Elite loot
2. BtC/BtCoE loot
3. Champions (don't mind any version of them)
4. Very rare loot that never drops (Epic Ring of Spell Storing/etc.)
5. Scaling removed (or not removed)
6. Running abandoned raids (Titan/etc.) or any other raids
7. Bugs/Exploits (cat is already out anyway)
8. Lag
9. Elitist jerks/whatever

All of that doesn't really matter to me.

95% of all the annoyances in DDO is caused by too much limited BtC bank space.

I abandoned my 4 mains toons (they have about 3000 raid completions), I still have a false hope of eventually getting more bank space and enjoy playing my main toons again.
End game is impossible on any of my toons, still piking and doing something useless like farming renown or Turbine Points on other accounts, which I'll never play anyway.
Sorry Orien server players, I'm no longer raiding anymore (except when doing favor for a friend).

[JOTMON]

Yes but as so many have pointed out, it's all or nothing. I like having the best gear, but don't like playing elite as it's currently designed, this isn't a "I want something for nothing", it's a "it is not fun to play elite". As it was the only way to get the *best* gear, which whether you realized it or not, essentially invalidated any other difficulty level in game, even though in honesty, there was not that much difference between Hard and Elite gear. Again the ASAH, ruined this even more as Elite gear was priced extremely high, along with rampant duping, Made the whole N/H/E gear system just not work.

Tiered loot is not all or nothing, it gives incremental bonuses that make the next level of difficulty version a bit better..
Dragon Helms were a great system for this from TOR.

Normal - ML23: Draconic Ferocity, (Stat +8 or Insightful +3), Yellow Augment Slot, Colourless Slot
Hard - ML24: Draconic Ferocity, (Stat +8 or Insightful +3), Green Augment Slot, Colourless Slot
Elite - ML25: Draconic Ferocity, (Stat +8 or Insightful +3), Green Augment Slot, Yellow slot

Each has their usefulness and even useful at different levels and really is there that much difference between them. or just enough to give you incentive to want the better version.
"Want" is not "Need".. none of these would give you the clear cut win/lose in any other content that you would "Need" to have it or you could not possibly succeed.

Personally I hate the ASAH system.. it is a Pay to win program that bypasses in game work for real money. ..just reminds me of the Southpark Freemium (youtube it.. its hilarious)..
How did the ASAH and duping ruin the game for you.. didn't impact me.. I avoid the ASAH and try to earn my gear by running content. I put gear up for roll and don't greed loot to sell.
What is it that caused the ASAH to ruin anything if you don't use it.

Powerful loot should be generally rare, but I also think it should have a chance to drop on all difficulty levels (well maybe not casual), with much higher chances on elite. I'm even ok with significantly higher drops on elite, but there is no reason why those who play on Normal or Hard can't have a shot at getting something awesome, if playing that difficultly level is fun for them. It shouldn't bother you, these players (like me) are not going to be joining your groups.

If the best of the best gear drops at lower difficulty, what is the point of challenging yourself to the higher difficulty to get the best of the best gear.
You wouldn't give a student a University credit for High school level work... why give the best reward for lower level challenge.

You wouldn't expect a student to go to University without first completing High School or at least being able to complete the University Challenge Exam to be worthy of being admitted.
You wouldn't drop off your High school kid to the University and say hey just go a head you might get lucky and get a degree for showing up.

Why give a reward to someone who didn't earn it. you are not helping them to be better for the content or challenges to come if they didn't earn their way there.
Does pushing a kid through high school that never learned to read and giving them a degree for good effort help them when they go to College/University.
Shouldn't the system at some point stop them to let them know they are not at the ability level they need to be at to succeed to get the prize they want.. go back and get the skills/tools you need to succeed?
..edit.. lol just saw Cetus using the education example...

I disagree. Tiered loot is simply an exercise in dividing players and creating epeen displays.

Elite is supposed to be challenging - then run it for challenge.

I am ok to make great loot drop at an increased rate as part of the apparent 'incentive' uber players need beyond the 'challenge' so many claim they crave. Otherwise, it should be the same loot you get at other levels. Everybody wants to win the lottery. Give players who may not be cut for Elite for whatever reason (rl, play ability, lack of grouping, etc) a chance to roll a 100 on the loot table.

Better Challenge=Better Loot.. it is a recognized standard in gaming.

How do you motivate people to challenge themselves, to try challenges that have a higher risk of failure if not for reward.
~its too hard.. but I want the prize.. try again.. change strategy, buffs, gear.. try again..gain experience, understanding of how to handle more difficult challenge. try again. get prize.. yay.
or
~its too hard.. cant be bothered to run other stuff to get the stepping stone gear, don't want to change or adapt anything just give me the prize.


Quests are not a lottery.. we have the Jester Festival for that..

[JOTMON]

I don't have problem with

1. Norm/Hard/Elite loot
2. BtC/BtCoE loot
3. Champions (don't mind any version of them)
4. Very rare loot that never drops (Epic Ring of Spell Storing/etc.)
5. Scaling removed (or not removed)
6. Running abandoned raids (Titan/etc.) or any other raids
7. Bugs/Exploits (cat is already out anyway)
8. Lag
9. Elitist jerks/whatever

All of that doesn't really matter to me.

95% of all the annoyances in DDO is caused by too much limited BtC bank space.

I abandoned my 4 mains toons (they have about 3000 raid completions), I still have a false hope of eventually getting more bank space and enjoy playing my main toons again.
End game is impossible on any of my toons, still piking and doing something useless like farming renown or Turbine Points on other accounts, which I'll never play anyway.
Sorry Orien server players, I'm no longer raiding anymore (except when doing favor for a friend).

Part of why I want to see Player housing... more storage space..

Start with things like Crew Quarters.. a small room with a spot for a chest.. Link into guild ship , or if unguilded.. a boat at the harbor.. or guidship entrance door..
Future opportunities to add.. bigger housing and more .... these are opportunities to sell space and many games have been very successful with player housing additions..
Add things like a Kobold butler(innkeeper) that makes various comments as he buys your junk loot and repairs.. "what Kobold supposed to do with this..", " you think you better than Kobold?", "oohh shiney Kobold keep this one", "kobold treasure this always"...
Many players would purchase a lot of housing options to upgrade to the Estate Castles and such...
Housing versions of guildship amenities...
and unlike Guildships no renown involved.. just purchases..

These are the kind of pay systems I would expect to see in any MMO games.
I am actually pretty surprised to see Turbine has not invested into this aspect of the game.

[Hafeal]

Better Challenge=Better Loot.. it is a recognized standard in gaming.

How do you motivate people to challenge themselves, to try challenges that have a higher risk of failure if not for reward.

I disagree. Your assume people only run challenge for loot.

Challenge is for challenge.

I always find the irony laughable when top end players want better loot as the reward for finishing challenging content - and then complain how easy the content is. If a reward is needed to burnish the plumes of players who complete that reward should be increased drop rates (which we have), favor rewards (which we have) and perhaps some cosmetic which allows them to strut in the game's public square letting the world know how great they are.

In a game where there seems to be widespread opinion that it is "too easy" - well, welcome to Monty Haul and tiered loot. Make loot all = to Normal, and let's scale back the insane loot build up. Crafted loot, like greensteel, works because no matter what difficulty you use, EVERYONE can get there. Top players and grinders simply get there first - that is better.

[zwiebelring]

Double standards everytime. Make challenge about only that and see, who of all the people here will NEVER run the highest difficulty.

In fact, the cry for more challenge is indeed the cry for more power, using the difficulty setting as an excuse.

[Qhualor]

Double standards everytime. Make challenge about only that and see, who of all the people here will NEVER run the highest difficulty.

In fact, the cry for more challenge is indeed the cry for more power, using the difficulty setting as an excuse.

I'm not asking for more power. I'm just asking for the highest difficulty to actually be challenging overall with an actual fail chance better than 1%.

[JOTMON]

I disagree. Your assume people only run challenge for loot.

Challenge is for challenge.

I always find the irony laughable when top end players want better loot as the reward for finishing challenging content - and then complain how easy the content is. If a reward is needed to burnish the plumes of players who complete that reward should be increased drop rates (which we have), favor rewards (which we have) and perhaps some cosmetic which allows them to strut in the game's public square letting the world know how great they are.

In a game where there seems to be widespread opinion that it is "too easy" - well, welcome to Monty Haul and tiered loot. Make loot all = to Normal, and let's scale back the insane loot build up. Crafted loot, like greensteel, works because no matter what difficulty you use, EVERYONE can get there. Top players and grinders simply get there first - that is better.

Challenge is not just for challenge.
if the only reward is "Challenge" then it becomes a "One and Done "
We run challenge once maybe twice for Challenge just to see if we can do it efficiently, decent time, FAvor(which is a reward in of itself).. whatever.. after that.. its loot.



No one wants a "one and done" system.. What game designer wants their quest run once for favor and then ignored after that..
Replayability is what keeps us coming back for more and loot does that.. whether its named items or ingredients that will get us something else
Players will grind stuff repeatedly to get.. something ... players do not regrind or rerun higher difficulty for nothing.

Even Greensteel.. its the loot that keeps us grinding it. not the "challenge"
When Shroud was endgame very few were running this hard/Elite.. there was the link your DR breakers and HP... it was a challenge and a difficult one.Even Normals were not guaranteed completions for most players.
It is unfortunate now that the level 13-28 runs are even happening, it is dragging people through shroud without offering them the proper challenge.
Shroud runs are being overrun by players that are way over level and dragging people that haven't fairly earned the reward for challenge through it.


I want to play my characters the best that I can and gear them with the best gear I can achieve.. The challenge is the obstacle to achieving those items.
Difficult challenges give that feeling of accomplishment for all the invested work when you finally succeed.. not just guaranteed win for just showing up...
I don't want a game that just gives me the prize I want for showing up.. I expect the game to be an obstacle that I have to overcome to get to the next challenge while giving me a better tool to challenge the next obstacle.
This is the whole premise for most games..

[JOTMON]

Double standards everytime. Make challenge about only that and see, who of all the people here will NEVER run the highest difficulty.

In fact, the cry for more challenge is indeed the cry for more power, using the difficulty setting as an excuse.

This has already been demonstrated in the game.
MOD runs.. normal... very few players have run beyond normal.. rinse/repeat 20's get loot.. done.
Epic Orchard quests.. ECasual speed farm LFM's for end reward list and chance of Mythics until ransack. bring whatever..

I already have the "one and done" for myself for the "challenge" and Favor... Unless someone in channel is asking for help to get their "favor" for Elite, I don't see myself running Elite anymore..
Without a real increased chance of loot there is no incentive to continue to challenge highest difficulty or "farm" at higher at level difficulty.

Challenges will be run "one and done" on highest difficulty, then farmed for loot at the easiest level that gives the best options for reward.
The increased insignificant drop rate for EH/EE infinitesimal % chance becomes basically irrelevant in difficulty choice considerations.
a guaranteed 20th incremental at any difficulty for the same reward = run at the easiest difficulty..

I still jump into pug LFM's for TOR elite with dragons.. because the best helms, intricate field optics, and the Globe of True Blood Augment drop at that difficulty..
I still have a couple toons with EN/EH versions that are good.. but I "want" better.. ergo "incentive"....

Loot doesn't necessarially have to mean more direct "power" .. other desired items like Royal Guard Mask, Bauble, Invisibility clickies, other clickies,... resources that allow me to save on pots, etc...
Even indirect power items like Shroud clickies, SP items to swap in at shrine, defensive items, FOM items, ioun stone, etc...

Terminal Delerium drops
~Epic Four Eyes - Goggles - ML 26 - True Seeing, Concentration +17, Insightful Wisdom +3, Spell Penetration V, Green Augment Slot
I ran the quest once on EE, got annoyed by instakills and the 6k slashing damage from a champion beholder.. no way to save vs that.. this became a "one and done" quest for me.
Loot isn't worth the effort to come back and do that again.. Tor Optics will suit me just fine.
.. if they had been Insightful +4.. then "incentive" because it becomes something I "want" that I cant get anywhere else vs meh not worth the effort....

[Qhualor]

Jotmon gets it.

[Monkey-Boy]

Terminal Delerium drops
~Epic Four Eyes - Goggles - ML 26 - True Seeing, Concentration +17, Insightful Wisdom +3, Spell Penetration V, Green Augment Slot
I ran the quest once on EE, got annoyed by instakills and the 6k slashing damage from a champion beholder.. no way to save vs that.. this became a "one and done" quest for me.
Loot isn't worth the effort to come back and do that again.. Tor Optics will suit me just fine.
.. if they had been Insightful +4.. then "incentive" because it becomes something I "want" that I cant get anywhere else vs meh not worth the effort....

Even the sociopaths I know got tired of that quest very quickly.

[zwiebelring]

This has already been demonstrated in the game.
MOD runs.. normal... very few players have run beyond normal.. rinse/repeat 20's get loot.. done.
Epic Orchard quests.. ECasual speed farm LFM's for end reward list and chance of Mythics until ransack. bring whatever..

I already have the "one and done" for myself for the "challenge" and Favor... Unless someone in channel is asking for help to get their "favor" for Elite, I don't see myself running Elite anymore..
Without a real increased chance of loot there is no incentive to continue to challenge highest difficulty or "farm" at higher at level difficulty.

Challenges will be run "one and done" on highest difficulty, then farmed for loot at the easiest level that gives the best options for reward.
The increased insignificant drop rate for EH/EE infinitesimal % chance becomes basically irrelevant in difficulty choice considerations.
a guaranteed 20th incremental at any difficulty for the same reward = run at the easiest difficulty..

I still jump into pug LFM's for TOR elite with dragons.. because the best helms, intricate field optics, and the Globe of True Blood Augment drop at that difficulty..
I still have a couple toons with EN/EH versions that are good.. but I "want" better.. ergo "incentive"....

Loot doesn't necessarially have to mean more direct "power" .. other desired items like Royal Guard Mask, Bauble, Invisibility clickies, other clickies,... resources that allow me to save on pots, etc...
Even indirect power items like Shroud clickies, SP items to swap in at shrine, defensive items, FOM items, ioun stone, etc...

Terminal Delerium drops
~Epic Four Eyes - Goggles - ML 26 - True Seeing, Concentration +17, Insightful Wisdom +3, Spell Penetration V, Green Augment Slot
I ran the quest once on EE, got annoyed by instakills and the 6k slashing damage from a champion beholder.. no way to save vs that.. this became a "one and done" quest for me.
Loot isn't worth the effort to come back and do that again.. Tor Optics will suit me just fine.
.. if they had been Insightful +4.. then "incentive" because it becomes something I "want" that I cant get anywhere else vs meh not worth the effort....

So, my assumption is correct then? I am not sure how to interpret your post.

I am happy with the game as it is 8besides the known bugs and quality of life issues). If I had to create epic elite rewards I created character individualizations, unique cosmetics, reactive environment. Somehting leaned towards bragging rights and reputation related. Sheer loot is not enough for me, especially because the drop rates are abysmal. So I replaced an unreliable drop rate or chance on a shiny item with something reliable. But in the end even this does not keep us playing forever. At some point you have seen everything and done everything. Admitting this and maybe moving on or having a break is better than claiming 'moar challenge' all the time.

Ah, since you mentioned ee Tor. We ran this quest frequently once per evening in our guild or half guild half pug. It became epic casual at some point. But looking at the first attempts it wasn't. What does this say about the game in general? For me it says that practice and quest experience is the reason why it became easy and that's a personal thing. Thus I'd be very happy if those people, who bark 'too easy' just stopped.

[zwiebelring]

I'm not asking for more power. I'm just asking for the highest difficulty to actually be challenging overall with an actual fail chance better than 1%.

Nonsense. For me epic elite is challenging enough and does have more fail rate than 1%. Of course, when you repeat that quest frequently you won't fail any more. But I repeat myself again. The game is not 'too easy'.

[Monkey-Boy]

Double standards everytime. Make challenge about only that and see, who of all the people here will NEVER run the highest difficulty.

In fact, the cry for more challenge is indeed the cry for more power, using the difficulty setting as an excuse.

(Most) people will run things once, twice, a few times just for the challenge of it.

For people to repeatedly do so it's gotta pay.

[Qhualor]

Nonsense. For me epic elite is challenging enough and does have more fail rate than 1%. Of course, when you repeat that quest frequently you won't fail any more. But I repeat myself again. The game is not 'too easy'.

Nonsense because you find EE challenging or nonsense that failing a quest is rare overall in the game? Come to Khyber and I'll show in pugs how easy it is.

[slarden]

This has already been demonstrated in the game.
MOD runs.. normal... very few players have run beyond normal.. rinse/repeat 20's get loot.. done.

What I've seen in MOD above EN is many people just can't handle it. Even the most accomplished players on Sarlona were dying repeatedly in EE. MOD is no different than other raids - people run it on EN because alot of people can't handle EH+. FOT was tiered loot and EN was the standard until an exploit was found that made EE completions easy. After the exploit was fixed EN was the normal mode for a long time until the level cap was increased. Running on EE saved 12 runs to upgrade so the benefit was enormous and still EN was the most commonly run difficulty when it was new (not counting exploit runs).

[Ayseifn]

FoT was run on normal because of raid bypasses. If there's a hard timer that you can't avoid in quests or raids then the higher difficulties will see more action because wipes don't really mean wasted time. MoD is tricky though, there are higher drop rates for hard/elite but I don't know by how much. I've done 10 or so hards and saw 2 items drop while only saw two items drop in 30 normal runs. Not all groups were full though, people were sometimes on ransack and also the whole anecdote does not equal data thing.

If there was a hard timer for MoD I'd actually try elites and be willing to sit around for a bit trying to get a good group but because normal can be done with anyone and because of bypasses I'll just stick with that mostly.

Old epics used to have a 16 hour timer and I had a similar philosophy with regards to fails there, if you can only do the quests once a day per alt then failing isn't a major concern. The objective is to get that completion instead of what we have now where it's all about ransacks/hour, I still mostly run EEs for loot on my main because they're honestly not that hard and they do have better drop rates, my alts though have fallen woefully behind so they only do hard/norm if I can even be bothered.

I don't really like tiered loot for points excellently elucidated by slarden, mythics are fine with me though as are things like FoTs inclusive tiering. If exclusive tiering does have to come back though can we get timers again?

[slarden]

FoT was run on normal because of raid bypasses. If there's a hard timer that you can't avoid in quests or raids then the higher difficulties will see more action because wipes don't really mean wasted time. MoD is tricky though, there are higher drop rates for hard/elite but I don't know by how much. I've done 10 or so hards and saw 2 items drop while only saw two items drop in 30 normal runs. Not all groups were full though, people were sometimes on ransack and also the whole anecdote does not equal data thing.

If there was a hard timer for MoD I'd actually try elites and be willing to sit around for a bit trying to get a good group but because normal can be done with anyone and because of bypasses I'll just stick with that mostly.

Old epics used to have a 16 hour timer and I had a similar philosophy with regards to fails there, if you can only do the quests once a day per alt then failing isn't a major concern. The objective is to get that completion instead of what we have now where it's all about ransacks/hour, I still mostly run EEs for loot on my main because they're honestly not that hard and they do have better drop rates, my alts though have fallen woefully behind so they only do hard/norm if I can even be bothered.

I don't really like tiered loot for points excellently elucidated by slarden, mythics are fine with me though as are things like FoTs inclusive tiering. If exclusive tiering does have to come back though can we get timers again?

Nonsense there wasn't many bypasses being used at this time. It wasn't until U21 and dupe-a-palooza that raid timers became easy to get.

It has nothing to do with the timer. People run FOT on EH and EE now because it's easier - level cap is increased. Timers are more plentiful now than they were when they were new. They ran it on EN because no chance of a wipe and too many people just couldn't handle EH. It's the same now - people run MOD EN now and EH only if they get a good group. EH will be the standard after some time.

The raid exploit hurt some. People farmed it on EE using the ledge exploit and then had everything they needed fully upgraded.

[Eth]

MoD is tricky though, there are higher drop rates for hard/elite but I don't know by how much.

High enough to be worth it from what I've seen so far.
Normal is pretty much 20 runs, grab end reward (unless you are very lucky).
Elite drops items frequently and even a +6 tome every now and then.

[Cetus]

(Most) people will run things once, twice, a few times just for the challenge of it.

For people to repeatedly do so it's gotta pay.

thank you.

This hits the nail on the head.

Challenge alone isn't sufficient incentive to carry content further than a week. Once we've mastered it to our satisfaction, nothing else keeps us coming back - might as well inactivate our account until the next update. If we had some long-term goal in acquiring something out of it - then the difficulty is a nice supplement to the loot incentive, just so it takes a while.

Getting all your stuff on normal cheapens the experience, and it's giving out medical degrees to high school students. No risk, sweat, and effort = no best in-game rewards.

It is necessary - but it isn't sufficient.

Challenge + carrot is what we need. Period.