Vip - rip

[Chai]

Can you provide links of where casuals asked for this?

One could, but bringing past disagreements into a new thread is against forum moderation policy. There is a long enough history of people posting "creative" ways of dealing with invis running and zerging. So far Im checking out threads that go as far back as 2008.

[slarden]

One could, but bringing past disagreements into a new thread is against forum moderation policy. There is a long enough history of people posting "creative" ways of dealing with invis running and zerging. So far Im checking out threads that go as far back as 2008.

Providing links is not a violation. Of course, it's a convenient excuse since these claims of non-stop complaining and lobbying by casuals is pure fiction.

[Chai]

Providing links is not a violation. Of course, it's a convenient excuse since these claims of non-stop complaining and lobbying by casuals is pure fiction.

Are you seriously telling us no one has been complaining about zerging, invis running, nerfing shiradi, masters blitz, paladins, bards, OP casters, game is too easy, etc.... seriously?

Perhaps its done by "casuals" or perhaps its done by vets in the name of "casuals" in order to push their own agenda. Ive seen many iterations of vets throwing newbies and casuals under the bus when complaining about a particular change they dont like due to not wanting to put their own premise on the line, because they clearly understand it would undermine and contradict all claims of being uber, and refute claims of not needing to learn to play better, doing it wrong, etc.

There have also been quite a few threads in the past with suggestions regarding randomizing quests, traps, encounters etc, to make the game less predictable, but the minute they put these champions in, the waffling began in spades.

[slarden]

Are you seriously telling us no one has been complaining about zerging, invis running, nerfing shiradi, masters blitz, paladins, bards, OP casters, game is too easy, etc.... seriously?

Perhaps its done by "casuals" or perhaps its done by vets in the name of "casuals" in order to push their own agenda. Ive seen many iterations of vets throwing newbies and casuals under the bus when complaining about a particular change they dont like due to not wanting to put their own premise on the line, because they clearly understand it would undermine and contradict all claims of being uber, and refute claims of not needing to learn to play better, doing it wrong, etc.

There have also been quite a few threads in the past with suggestions regarding randomizing quests, traps, encounters etc, to make the game less predictable, but the minute they put these champions in, the waffling began in spades.

i think many times the same people claim that casuals argued for this and casuals argued for that but it's complete mythology. Just look at the enhancement pass feedback on the Lamannia forum if you want an example of who was actually asking for multi-class easy buttons - and got it I should add. It wasn't casual players.

Some of us run with a diverse set of players. I group with some of the most elite players on Sarlona and I group with people that don't like to run above EH.

Some of you folks have an all-or-nothing view of champions - it either needs to stay exactly the way it was when introduced or they need to go. Some of us take a different approach and would like to see refinement rather than those extreme non-budging positions.

[Chai]

i think many times the same people claim that casuals argued for this and casuals argued for that but it's complete mythology. Just look at the enhancement pass feedback on the Lamannia forum if you want an example of who was actually asking for multi-class easy buttons - and got it I should add. It wasn't casual players.

Some of us run with a diverse set of players. I group with some of the most elite players on Sarlona and I group with people that don't like to run above EH.

Some of you folks have an all-or-nothing view of champions - it either needs to stay exactly the way it was when introduced or they need to go. Some of us take a different approach and would like to see refinement rather than those extreme non-budging positions.

Ive posted several times that they can continue to tweak them until the most people are satisfied, but they should keep them.

I likely run with the most diverse group of players. Raid and TR guild on one server, permadeath guild on another. Several static groups in between. Im in two different raid teaching channels. Ive seen feedback on this in game provided by all sides, and the single biggest crowd who wants champions removed are those who want to keep their heroic elite XP zerg with no failure chance. They throw casuals under the bus and say it affects them the most in order to not have to reveal and support their own premise, that their XP/min just took a hit.

That being said, if you are saying there has never been a casual player who complained about zerging or invis running you are mistaken. Attempting to label people with differing views as extremists is ironic, when claiming no casual player has ever complained about a power gamers play style. That's a pretty extreme claim, and an incorrect one at that.

[slarden]

Ive posted several times that they can continue to tweak them until the most people are satisfied, but they should keep them.

I likely run with the most diverse group of players. Raid and TR guild on one server, permadeath guild on another. Several static groups in between. Im in two different raid teaching channels. Ive seen feedback on this in game provided by all sides, and the single biggest crowd who wants champions removed are those who want to keep their heroic elite XP zerg with no failure chance. They throw casuals under the bus and say it affects them the most in order to not have to reveal and support their own premise.

That being said, if you are saying there has never been a casual player who complained about zerging or invis running you are mistaken.

I am not saying that, but I am saying almost all the complaining on the forums comes from the group of people that consider themselves power gamers. I invis zerg all the time - even with champions. We just have to keep the party size small to do it and avoid alert.

[Chai]

I am not saying that, but I am saying almost all the complaining on the forums comes from the group of people that consider themselves power gamers. I invis zerg all the time - even with champions. We just have to keep the party size small to do it and avoid alert.

Another extreme claim. And also incorrect.

Ill give you a hint. Most of the folks you think are power gamers, are not. Wanting the game to provide some level of difficulty on the highest difficulty settings is not a powergamer request. Powergamers strive to attain their goals as quickly as possible. Those wanting the challenge are those willing to use tactics like shield walling doorways and pulling mobs back - which is not the powergamer way in DDO. The powergamers playstyle hasn't changed in epics, because zerging epic normal is still the quickest route to XP, and loot isn't any different on NHE any more.

[myliftkk_v2]

There have also been quite a few threads in the past with suggestions regarding randomizing quests, traps, encounters etc, to make the game less predictable, but the minute they put these champions in, the waffling began in spades.

I wholly support Champions as a randomisation (in line with my previous posts favoring randomisation techniques they should implement). Personally I'm glad they finally started down the path of removing the arbitrary structural predictability from the game.

I'd love for champs to drop more goodies on death, but I'll admit they've already improved my experience from a "walk in the park" on everything heroic (which was totally stale), to actually having to look at the makeup of the mobs and champs I'm pulling before deciding how far to zerg and think about how attack a particular group when I notice a problematic champ has spawned.

[AbyssalMage]

I wholly support Champions as a randomisation (in line with my previous posts favoring randomisation techniques they should implement). Personally I'm glad they finally started down the path of removing the arbitrary structural predictability from the game.

I'd love for champs to drop more goodies on death, but I'll admit they've already improved my experience from a "walk in the park" on everything heroic (which was totally stale), to actually having to look at the makeup of the mobs and champs I'm pulling before deciding how far to zerg and think about how attack a particular group when I notice a problematic champ has spawned.

I hate champs but that is because there is a ton of risk with no reward. That being said, now that they no longer "one shot" me I am slightly less grumpy. Still get grumpy when I get a bad instance and not looking forward to protect missions since their introduction at all.

The funny thing is they only changed my play style on my non-AoE characters. Oh, and now I make my miss chance/PRR as high as possible where before I geared/played more casually.

[myliftkk_v2]

I hate champs but that is because there is a ton of risk with no reward. That being said, now that they no longer "one shot" me I am slightly less grumpy. Still get grumpy when I get a bad instance and not looking forward to protect missions since their introduction at all.

The funny thing is they only changed my play style on my non-AoE characters. Oh, and now I make my miss chance/PRR as high as possible where before I geared/played more casually.

The only risk is you have is now you need to think about how to play the game in the instance provided. The fact that you didn't actually have to think prior to that was a endemic flaw in design of the software, not a reward for meta-gaming. Turbine is well within their rights to say, this is the way gaming should be, take it or leave it. Ultimately, all MMO style games will move to this model in the future and it will be baked in that randomisation is the only way to not have your content sunset in a week. Consider this the true future of instance gaming.

Would I like randomized goodie drops too? Sure, but also because that is an improvement over static loot drop locations, not because I feel like I need a new reward because they did something that should have been done ages ago.