Armor and Mitigation Changes

[Eldradn]

The comment about this change just resulting in an increase in mob damage is likely correct, but that increase in damage will likely be relative to the benefit to robe users not to Heavy armor users. A robe user with maxed PRR/MRR will take 150/250 = 60% damage from all incoming magic which means we could expect base damage on spells to go up to 100/60 = 166.66%, a 66.66% increase (since ALL characters can be expected to be able to reduce all magic damage to current levels without much difficulty). With this increase in mind what we are really looking at in terms of numbers is:

Robes (and no heavy/tower shield): Same magic damage as now
Light Armor (and NO heavy/tower shield): No save = 150/350 = 42.86% * 1.66 (expected damage multiplier) = 71.43% damage -- effectively 28.57% reduction
Medium Armor/Heavy Armor (WITH heavy/tower shield), Lets go crazy and assume that this character somehow managed to achieve 300 base MRR:
Vs. effects with no reflex save character would take 150/450 = 33.33% * 1.66 (expected damage multiplier) = 55.56% damage -- a 44.44% reduction
Vs. effects which allow reflex save character would take 150/750 = 20% damage * 1.66 (expected damage multiplier) = 33.33% damage -- a 66.67% reduction (83.33% reduction with perfect reflex save on a tank)

A few reminders to keep in mind:
Characters with perfect evasion (no fail on a 1 and high reflex save) will always take no damage from sources which allow reflex saves (which represent the majority of offensive spells) -- this is not comparable to the damage reduction on a tank even with perfect reflex.
Characters with improved evasion, even with an AWFUL reflex save take 50% damage from all spells which allow reflex saves -- a 50% reduction

so: Characters with dominant reflex saves and evasion are still the best in the game BY FAR at handling AOE effects -- tanks just won't get melted anymore.
Improved evasion will still be a powerful and sought after effect
Heavy Armor (and medium armor) will be much more sought after than they are now (much needed)

I would say that the problem with this system really boils down to the removal of the "ranged touch" role from ray spells like disintegrate, searing light, scorching ray, polar ray, etc. This armor update makes tanks unfairly powerful versus spells which allow NO reflex save -- the change versus effects which allow reflex saves is very well done. In traditional pen and paper, high dexterity, or high dodge characters are commonly missed by ranged touch spells like disintegrate (so even though they can't evade some/all of the damage, they can dodge the incoming ray in the form of the caster failing to hit on their "ranged touch" attack which gives them the ability to mitigate incoming damage) add this to the calculations for ranged touch attacks and I feel it would perfectly balance the system as intended.

[Free2Pay]

The very idea of a heavy armored meatshield able to soak up damage (be it physical or spell) and lives to tell the tale seem to frighten a lot of players. Melee players already sacrificed dps by not able to perform various AOE instant death ability accorded to spellcasters. Having their tactical feats reduced to a joke compared to some of the best CC abilities from Shiradi, disco ball and earthquakes.

It was mentioned that DDO strives to avoid the tank, healer and dps trinity. Indeed it has very much done so by making tank obsolete, to the extent that you can't reasonably make one. And yet there is no decoupling of the dependance of melee class on healing and arcane buffs. The healing support class join a dying breed of near extinct playstyle for being a thankless job that no one wants to do. And each time a self healing ED ability is introduced it just hasten its downfall. Yet there's this fear of Healing class dps surpassing DPS roles. And healing class find their dps suppressed by nature.

So what's left? DPS class. What can you do as DPS class? Plenty. CC? No problem. Self heal? No problem. DPS? Of course or it wouldn't be a dps class right? Buffs? Sure thing. And to achieve reasonable dps arcane DC just has to work or else it's a epic fail they say. But no one sang that tune when Armor/AC broke...and it remained broke for so long. And when what should have been the best defense is broken, the second best (i.e. Evasion) naturally took its place. So kiting is deem fine, but hell no, tanking class in heavy armor just isn't supposed to tank...

When heavy armor doesn't accord the protection expected of a up close melee tank for him to do the some tanking - if that's not considered a basic funcationality of the heavy armored melee class that is broken I don't know what is.

[BDog77]

Please consider a fairly simple fix to mithril and adamantine armors. That is, Mithril (the lighter yet stronger metal than steel with magical properties) gains PRR and MRR as if the armor was 1 level higher than it should be (in otherwards, fixing it to rate as the type of armor it is (plate counts as heavy for purposes of PRR/MRR, yet medium for weight purposes, etc.). Therefore, the Cavalry Plate would get Heavy Armor + 1 (I know this does not exist yet) or PRR of 60/MRR of 60. Mithril Chainshirt (light armor) would get PRR 30/MRR 30 (the values for medium armor). In the same way Adamantine would get PRR of + 2 levels but MRR of same level, therefore Adamantine Plate Mail would get PRR 75/MRR 45 and Adamantine Chain Shirt would get PRR 45/MRR15 (Heavy armor PRR/Light armor MRR).

This, I think, would fit in best with the way people think of these metals in game, and could lead to some very interesting choices in endgame especially if (and someone mentioned dragonscale armor above) something like dragonscale got a +2 to MRR (so dragonscale Plate was PRR 45/MRR 75......).

[lyrecono]

all around this thread i see armor materials come by, Mithril the most.
When U14 came round, the devs stated that materials like Adamantine and Mithril were no longer supported.
All the old armors with these properties(mostly a few named armors) are remnants of an obsolete system.
all the old armors were surpassed by better ones any way, especially the cavalry plate.
The devs explicitly stated that materials on armor are too much time to code and not coming back
Asking for it to return is a wast of time. imho
in return we got better armor, ranging from full plate to planeforged plate.

Basic Heavy Armors
Name Armor Bonus
Full Plate
Battle Plate
Magecraft Plate
Mountain Plate
Planeforged Plate
link to the ddowiki armor page

wich reminds me,
@ `sev?
since the armor always goes up in increments of 4, are we getting lv 28 armor soon?

[HatsuharuZ]

all around this thread i see armor materials come by, Mithril the most.
When U14 came round, the devs stated that materials like Adamantine and Mithril were no longer supported.
All the old armors with these properties(mostly a few named armors) are remnants of an obsolete system.
all the old armors were surpassed by better ones any way, especially the cavalry plate.
The devs explicitly stated that materials on armor are too much time to code and not coming back
Asking for it to return is a wast of time. imho
in return we got better armor, ranging from full plate to planeforged plate.

They said that? Good to know. Personally, I'd like it if they just removed the mithril property from armors that have it, or allow us to remove it via some crafting interface. I really don't like having the PRR of medium armor on my heavy armor.

[Annyee]

It would be so easy to Fix. Re-code Mithril Armor to have a higher Dex/dodge cap. Re-code adamantine to give a bump in PRR. Easy and done.

[lyrecono]

i understand.
some vets still have the lowbie armor's for canith crafting (tr gear etc)
It is still found on old gear, here and there but i don't think they'll sort through their database or armors to change them.
At low levels the issue is moot (who really cares about 3 prr at lv 1?)
past level 12-15, m/prr becomes more interesting but really shines in epic elites, by then there are far better option for armor.

[BDog77]

past level 12-15, m/prr becomes more interesting but really shines in epic elites, by then there are far better option for armor.

Actually, as far as AC goes, not even Planeforged Plate is better than the Cavalry Plate. PP has an armor bonus of 24 at min level 22, Epic CP has an armor bonus of 26 at min level 20. With the amount of "extras" the CP comes with, I have actually never found a better armor in game. Also, you can get you one right now, so it's not all that depreciated, and since they are making changes to Cove items anyway, this would be a very good time to do something about the "mithril" property. Either get rid of it, so the CP gives the PRR and MRR that it should, or fix it.

[Psiandron]

all around this thread i see armor materials come by, Mithril the most.
When U14 came round, the devs stated that materials like Adamantine and Mithril were no longer supported.
All the old armors with these properties(mostly a few named armors) are remnants of an obsolete system.
all the old armors were surpassed by better ones any way, especially the cavalry plate.
The devs explicitly stated that materials on armor are too much time to code and not coming back
Asking for it to return is a wast of time. imho
in return we got better armor, ranging from full plate to planeforged plate.

Really couldn't disagree with your conclusions more.

Sev is proposing a change/fix to the current armor system because it is broken.

Completely setting aside the thematic relevance of armor materials, making armor materials mean something is one the easiest ways to beef up the armor currently in game. There are vast quantities of mithral and adamantine armor still extent in the game. Not only that, but it is readily available for new players. Previously the devs made it irrelevant, imo a big mistake, but they did not remove it from the game, a very good thing, again imo.

Mithral provides a way for DPS heavy melee toons, which often have a moderately high dex to function and have decent protection, while adamantine provides better protection for heavy tanks (a role which has been largely relegated to the scrap-heap, but may rise anew if this armor pass goes well). That leaves the light armor, outfits and robes open for use by the evasion toons.

For my money, I think that they should beef up the dragonscale material benefits too.

So, I say that materials should matter.


p.s. You mention that the devs explicitly stated that materials were not coming back. I think that is pretty much irrelevant. They have explicitly stated many things, only to change their minds later. I don't have a problem with people reconsidering their views in any case. Adapt and overcome and all that.

[Thar]

Those above fail to realize that it is not only tanks that benefit. ANY heavy armor user. Eldrich wizards, clerics, splash fighter, etc that can slap on heavy armor/heavy shield for 73% reduction. *per dev comment on the mrr.

that's not worse than evasion. slap on an absorb and you can easily pot or cocoon through massive content. no saves, no mess, no character choices. With no work, you are now uber.

uberness should be obtained with some work. with some sacrifice.

This is going to move the game to do more and more spell damage. Casters will insta blow up if not in energy shealth and maybe even still then. Evasion will do ok...ok...ok...boom. (ie haunted halls miir...). Med armor will do ok but not enough prr to get high enough. Everyone will need to slap on heavy armor, take the penalties to armor check if not proficient and roll on. It needs to be scaled back by a third.

and wasted time on light shields (or not wasted time if they only design 2 like the bucklers but then player rage for all those evasion people) that can be put into better use making new content! give us some new quests, not the same old stuff we were tired of 2 years ago.

[Bingobong]

Those above fail to realize that it is not only tanks that benefit. ANY heavy armor user. Eldrich wizards, clerics, splash fighter, etc that can slap on heavy armor/heavy shield for 73% reduction. *per dev comment on the mrr.

This is not true. A heavy armor user only gains 30 extra prr over a light armor user (there's also a slight bab bonus, but that already exists today). The real gains comes from those using heavy/tower shield.

So heavy armor user gains very little. Heavy/tower shield users gain a lot.

[Free2Pay]

Maybe if Mithril appear on heavy armor, it allow anyone with Medium armor proficiency to use it. And if it appear on Medium armor, it allow light armor proficient user to wear it and still retain evasion feat? Maybe Barbarian should be able to put AP for a similar feature where he can wear heavier armor without extra feat or treat medium armor as light and evade in medium armor.

[lyrecono]

Really couldn't disagree with your conclusions more.

Sev is proposing a change/fix to the current armor system because it is broken.

Completely setting aside the thematic relevance of armor materials, making armor materials mean something is one the easiest ways to beef up the armor currently in game. There are vast quantities of mithral and adamantine armor still extent in the game. Not only that, but it is readily available for new players. Previously the devs made it irrelevant, imo a big mistake, but they did not remove it from the game, a very good thing, again imo.

Mithral provides a way for DPS heavy melee toons, which often have a moderately high dex to function and have decent protection, while adamantine provides better protection for heavy tanks (a role which has been largely relegated to the scrap-heap, but may rise anew if this armor pass goes well). That leaves the light armor, outfits and robes open for use by the evasion toons.

For my money, I think that they should beef up the dragonscale material benefits too.

So, I say that materials should matter.


p.s. You mention that the devs explicitly stated that materials were not coming back. I think that is pretty much irrelevant. They have explicitly stated many things, only to change their minds later. I don't have a problem with people reconsidering their views in any case. Adapt and overcome and all that.

Actualy they did remove it from the game, no named items with those materials were made past U14 and it disappeared from the loot tables.
unless dealing with specific named armors, i don't see this coming back anytime soon

Those above fail to realize that it is not only tanks that benefit. ANY heavy armor user. Eldrich wizards, clerics, splash fighter, etc that can slap on heavy armor/heavy shield for 73% reduction. *per dev comment on the mrr.

that's not worse than evasion. slap on an absorb and you can easily pot or cocoon through massive content. no saves, no mess, no character choices. With no work, you are now uber.

uberness should be obtained with some work. with some sacrifice.

This is going to move the game to do more and more spell damage. Casters will insta blow up if not in energy shealth and maybe even still then. Evasion will do ok...ok...ok...boom. (ie haunted halls miir...). Med armor will do ok but not enough prr to get high enough. Everyone will need to slap on heavy armor, take the penalties to armor check if not proficient and roll on. It needs to be scaled back by a third.

and wasted time on light shields (or not wasted time if they only design 2 like the bucklers but then player rage for all those evasion people) that can be put into better use making new content! give us some new quests, not the same old stuff we were tired of 2 years ago.

wow, you really could't be further of the mark here....
That amount of mitigation comes armor&heavy or towershield, a prestige class, a ED and some twists, 3 feats and the loss of many class abilities.
Not to mention Base attack bonus and heavy armor proficiency.
Arcane spellcasting unles you're a EK in that case you can wield the armor(not the shield which offers the most mitigation), running speed, druid are prohibited to wear them with the exception of platemail made out of dragon scales, rangers/monks/rog's loose evasion, etc.
These changes were made for heavy armor users (fighter paly and to a lesser extend pure clerics (if people still run those, i rarely see them at cap)

Please reread the thread and ddowiki pages on armor.

As for new content? i rather see a bug fix and since armor has been bugged since level 10, this is a much needed bug fix imho.

Maybe if Mithril appear on heavy armor, it allow anyone with Medium armor proficiency to use it. And if it appear on Medium armor, it allow light armor proficient user to wear it and still retain evasion feat? Maybe Barbarian should be able to put AP for a similar feature where he can wear heavier armor without extra feat or treat medium armor as light and evade in medium armor.

i loved the parasitic breastplate, an epic version would be nice (hint, hint Sev)
However, i don't see the armor materials coming back anytime soon

[RumbIe]

Excellent to see this revisited. Haven't read through all 11 pages, but if the intended effect is to get people to wear different gear as opposed to everyone running around in robes then you have certainly partially achieved the goal, but I would ask why would anyone wear medium armor then? Either you go robes or light for evasion to solve the issue or you go heavy for PRR and MRR. What is the point in ever donning Medium armor?

I know the response will be that not all can wear Heavy Armor in which case the only real solution will probably be splash monk and go evasion/robes.

Maybe look beyond just the defense that armor gives and perhaps look at offense penalties? Maybe heavy armor (even if proficient) offers X BAB penalty while medium armor does not. So then someone has to chose between a higher PRR/MRR and slightly less DPS and slightly less RR and higher DPS. Logically it makes sense. How fast and hard do you think you can swing a sword in full heavy armor compared to Medium armor?

Just a thought

[lyrecono]

it's 26 pages now?, hot topic indeed!

Loosing dps over defense? that will not go over well at all.
besides the occasional shinning star (BF centered Kensai and the swashbuckler), very little melee's can do EE WGU solo, let alone enjoy that.

medium armor might be preferred by barbs and the rare warchanter, though that breed is dying due to Swash buckler.

[Ayseifn]

Med armour has no MRR cap and a much higher dodge cap than heavy, it looks fine to me on paper but wouldn't mind it getting a re look when the barb buffs come along. Especially since it'll give us time to check it out on live and make more informed opinions.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

just curious, while you are adding a multiselector to give players who dont want to use a shield access to the greater defensive stance enhancements, if youre adding a dps shield tree and a defensive shield tree where does that leave the current shield based tree? maybe you should just redesign it or scrap it completely.

also allowing heavy armor users w/o a shield to gain +6 competence bonus to strength is nice, but you have to be in a defensive stance which blocks rage effects which are dps enhancing. sure there is a (clicking intensive) work around but, say youre in a party with a warchanter who has primal scream. normally you just deactivate stance drink a rage pot/primal scream and reactivate stance. but now theres a bard who will do that for you and throw a +6% double strike buff (a very good buff if it works) that is a rage effect. are players expected to either be watching for buffs like an eagle, or just eat that dps loss? personally this would be a major turn off regarding these changes.

i dont know how you would manage this, but id rather see stalwart defender completely reworked (and renamed probably) to allow heavy armor users to gain the benefits of the current improved and greater defensive stance without prohibiting rage and also giving more generalized dps/defense buffs since youre already introducing two shield based trees. then fighter would have four trees though so perhaps it would just be better to take some of the bleh out of kensei and put improved/greater defensive stance lines in there and rename them and just make them a general combat stance (not a defensive one) and scrap stalwart since you pretty much are anyway.

[Severlin]

just curious, while you are adding a multiselector to give players who dont want to use a shield access to the greater defensive stance enhancements, if youre adding a dps shield tree and a defensive shield tree where does that leave the current shield based tree? maybe you should just redesign it or scrap it completely.

We agree that adding a Shieldbearer tree would just force tanks into another tree. We will be improving Sacred and Stalwart Defender instead for both Shield based and non-shield based builds.

Sev~

[arkonas]

We agree that adding a Shieldbearer tree would just force tanks into another tree. We will be improving Sacred and Stalwart Defender instead for both Shield based and non-shield based builds.

Sev~

i don't see an issue with that though. isn't one meant to be defensive while the other is offensive? people will dip into other trees anyways if they need certain abilities. i know on my fvs for example have points in both warpriest and angel of vengeance. So why shouldn't a tank do that? hell right now they can be in knight of chalice and sacred defender. lol. i don't see the issue.

[losian2]

i don't see an issue with that though. isn't one meant to be defensive while the other is offensive? people will dip into other trees anyways if they need certain abilities. i know on my fvs for example have points in both warpriest and angel of vengeance. So why shouldn't a tank do that? hell right now they can be in knight of chalice and sacred defender. lol. i don't see the issue.

I think Sev's point was that every tank should not be forced into the *same* tree. Instead they should have options in each tree, which are still shield-focused, to enable their tanking.

Rather than tree 1: shield tank, tree 2: dps not-tank, it's tree 1 and 2 both having attributes of both.. That way the player can choose a style they like and pick the enhancement tree that they enjoy the appeal of, rather than be shoehorned into "the only tank" tree.

Or at least, that's what I take from it.