Armor and Mitigation Changes

[ThomasHunter]

~ One handed fighting feats will not work with shields. We prefer a design that keeps the various fighting styles pure. On the other hand, if the DPS tree makes shield bashes hit as hard as we are imagining you will want the increased chance to shield bash from the shield feats. We just have to make sure that the increased shield bashes don't work while blocking because, let's face it a strategy where all you do is hold block and click for big shield bashes would really not be fun.

Sev~

I'm not sure what this means. I feel both enlightened and confused at the implication of what this means. I thought that the only way to shield bash was to hold shift then swing (right-click for me). Can this be done in "regular" melee?

What does this statement really mean?

[MangLord]

~ PRR is already in the game. It is an existing system that we are building on. Armor already gives PRR. The current formula is 6 + BAB for Heavy, 4 + (BAB / 1.5) for medium, and 2 + (BAB / 2.0) for light. This is in place on live. We are building on this existing system. Yes we are adding MRR, but it's just the magic equivalent

~ You don't need to know the math to master this system. More PRR and MRR is always good, and the first point of PRR provides just as much mitigation (as a percent) as the 200th point. All your girlfriend really needs to know if playing a character in medium or heavy armor is that PRR and MRR are good. She doesn't have to worry about hitting caps that make further points useless. She doesn't have to worry about stacking a specific saving throw to make her mitigation work. She just needs to know, basically, that more PRR is better.

~ None of the other systems you talk about work for what we want. A hard capped system won't scale at all with new gear which means we don't have anywhere to grow the game. The armor class system fixing you propose just re-introduces a binary (thus spikey) mitigation. Plus, if we ever fixed AC and players started missing creatures a lot I think the game would be much less fun.

~ If someone really wants to tank they will be looking for a smoother, more predictable damage mitigation.

Sev~

I see your point, but the system needs to be built upon a s/m/l/xl scale, so that if a given player doesn't happen to take every feat for maximum tankage, they can be at least viable to pinch-hit the role. Or, what if my dwarf axe kensei needs to fill a tanking role in a raid and switch to a shield over a greataxe? If a healer has to be married to me, then I'm not doing anyone any good. My heavy armor and a tower shield should apply some solid benefit so that a healer can turn around and heal other people, even though I don't specialize in it. A paladin that does specialize should be able to withstand heavy abuse for a good minute or two while the party deals with other problems and can support them later. That's the point of a tank. I want to be able to build a defender and have it live up to its billing at epic levels. Scale feat bonuses to level, add a line of sword and shield feats, whatever. Defense needs a serious jolt, but it should apply at a generous enough level that characters that don't specialize only in defense can maintain enough protection to be worthwhile. Otherwise, there is no point in making a pure kensei greatweapon fighter that wears heavy armor if, without a shield, their defense is going to be terrible. It just maintains the status quo of monk levels and robes. Given the build freedom in DDO, pinch tanking should be something viable enough for kensei to want to keep a shield around for.

Given that barbarians are limited to medium armor, can't cast when raged, and tend to use greatweapons, are there any plans to make the class more survivable in the future? Not to derail the conversation, just wondering if any plans were on the drawing board.

The idea that you guys are ok with existing shield feats is kinda frightening. Shield bashing is garbage. The damage is bad, the crit range is bad, and it seems to be severely limited in how often you can actually get a bash. I've never noticed much benefit from it in terms of damage output. An extra 20-30pts here or there, which might as well be 0 after level 15. Now if it added a +5-10% chance to knock an enemy prone or stun them, you'd be cooking with some gas. No one has ever died from a little extra CC.
Shield deflection is possibly even worse, and likely the worst possible way to spend a feat in DDO. I'm hardly going to stand there and turtle up behind my shield for less than a 50/50 chance (at best) to ignore elemental damage, when running up to a caster and attacking it will likely prevent far more spells being thrown at me overall. With some heavy fire resistance, an absorption item and the feat, I suppose it might make some difference in Thunder Peak, but you're still likely to die from other incoming damage sources.

[Scrabbler]

I will look into why the Dodge cap might be lower for Mithral Body. I don't know off hand why this was done or what it is balanced against.

For the record, Mithral Body was balanced against the starting gold of a level 1 PC in D&D 3.5, which was too little to afford a masterwork mithral chainshirt.

[bennyson]

But DPS is terrible when using a shield!
We intend to give characters who use weapon and shield additional options.

~ The Stalwart Defender and the Sacred Defender will offer enhancement options as alternates to the shield based enhancements. The enhancements that current require shields will be changed into a multi-selector, with an additional option that requires medium or heavy armor.

~ The Paladin class has fallen behind beyond the second level so we plan to look at some more compelling reasons to advance in that class.

~ We plan to introduce two new trees for shield use. The Vanguard tree will be focused on DPS while using a weapon and shield. This DPS will come from a combination of weapon damage and shield bashes. The Shieldbearer tree will be a mitigation tree that will focus on heavy armor and shield. This will also offer ways to counter enemies with active mitigation such as stuns, knock downs, and the like. These trees would be available to Fighter, Paladin and perhaps even a new class that supported heavy armor and martial abilities.

Sev~

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_...283.5e_Feat%29)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

[lyrecono]

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_...283.5e_Feat%29)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

i like the idea of a good shield feat line.
I would like to see greensteel, thunderforged, and gianthold(matching dragonscale) shields added to the game (hint, hint sev...)

[grandeibra]

Some very reasonable suggestions in OP imho.

However I really feel this assertion in OP is a problem in itself:

characters who wear no armor or light armor and use Evasion. These characters can kite and use magic to do fairly well in our content

Does this mean only naked/light can/should kite?

Does it mean naked/light characters SHOULD kite.

For me (and one of my two mains is a ranged) the focus on kiting as damage mitigation in the past few years in DDO is horrible for gameplay. It makes for boring group dynamics.

I'm all for heavy armored toons getting some more mitigation but I really hope Turbine doesn't focus even more on assuming nekkid/light characters should all run around benny Hill style. on epic elite.

[PermaBanned]

Some very reasonable suggestions in OP imho.

However I really feel this assertion in OP is a problem in itself: Does this mean only naked/light can/should kite?

Does it mean naked/light characters SHOULD kite.

For me (and one of my two mains is a ranged) the focus on kiting as damage mitigation in the past few years in DDO is horrible for gameplay. It makes for boring group dynamics.

I'm all for heavy armored toons getting some more mitigation but I really hope Turbine doesn't focus even more on assuming nekkid/light characters should all run around benny Hill style. on epic elite.

IMO, regardless of armor status the question of "to kite or not to kite" should be answered by the character's primary combat style:

• If melee, kiting doesn't really make sense.

• If ranged or casting, standing toe to toe doesn't really make sense.

I highly doubt that the quote you referenced was suggesting that (for example) melee oriented monks (nekkid) or swashbucklers (light) should be kiting. On the other hand, casters and ranged characters traditionally prefer to do their thing from a distance - which generally involves kiting if you're not CCing, Pinning, perching or something. I mean, how many bow users typically want to shoot things from within a sword's reach? (I realize that might be a bit too RPGish for some people's taste).

[Ausdoerrt]

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_...283.5e_Feat%29)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

This is very nice, I wish they would include this in the game.

[MangLord]

Are there any plans towards allowing us to mitigate poison and/or light damage in any way? Light damage is generally a non-issue unless you're playing a pale master, but some poison traps are beastly at level. I don't know if its an oversight, but I haven't found a way to absorb poison damage aside from temporary HP, a substantial red bar and a dose of good luck. Unless you're warforged or undead, and you can just stroll right through, of course.

[MangLord]

Considering this, here is a feat that exists in 3.5! (from HERE: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Weapon_...283.5e_Feat%29)

Weapon and Shield Offensive Harmony

"When using a melee weapon and shield with proficiency, you can attack with both as if you had the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. In addition, any successful attack with your shield inflicts +1 damage, or grants an additional +2 bonus to your Strength check for a special combat maneuver requiring one."

This feat is the real Sword & Board combat style feat.

also, I think with just a little DDO dev magic, this can make an excellent line of feats, specifically for fighting with a one-handed weapon and shield.

I like it, but it would have to be injected with plenty of PEDs to scale to the current power level of DDO. +1 damage is great in Harbor quests, but would definitely have to increase in power like Divine Favor spell or something similar. An extra +1 every three levels or so might be nice. +9 to bashing damage at level 27 doesn't seem outrageous. Shield bashing mechanics would have to be reworked to make this useful, too. Getting a little extra bash damage every few seconds currently doesn't make much difference, in my opinion. It falls far short of the benefit you get from TWF, THF and SWF feat lines, at least. Just taking the first TWF feat dramatically increases your offhand proc chance, so I'd expect a good SnB feat line would have to perform similarly. Maybe not quite as heavy on DPS as TWF, but if there were solid defensive benefits and a respectable level of damage output, I could see it being popular.

Adding bonuses to tactical feats would be very appealing. Any boost to Stunning Blow or Trip is a good thing.

Does Improved Crit: Bludgeon apply to shields and bashing? I've always wondered about this.

[lyrecono]

Some very reasonable suggestions in OP imho.

However I really feel this assertion in OP is a problem in itself: Does this mean only naked/light can/should kite?

Does it mean naked/light characters SHOULD kite.

For me (and one of my two mains is a ranged) the focus on kiting as damage mitigation in the past few years in DDO is horrible for gameplay. It makes for boring group dynamics.

I'm all for heavy armored toons getting some more mitigation but I really hope Turbine doesn't focus even more on assuming nekkid/light characters should all run around benny Hill style. on epic elite.

i think it means that light/no armor toons (besides monks) should be the first choice to tank to begin with. Most light/no armor toons(again besides monks) have either ranged attacks or should be attacking in the side/back(while the heavy armor guy holds agro) to compensate for the lack of defenses. just like pnp, just like a real life sensible light armored combatant.

[bennyson]

Shield bashing mechanics would have to be reworked to make this useful, too. Getting a little extra bash damage every few seconds currently doesn't make much difference, in my opinion.

The real problem, to me, is that the auto-bashing doesn't happen enough during a attack chain to be noticeable or to make any difference.

Two Weapon Fighting line gives you a flat 80% chance to attack with your off-hand weapon (unless your a Tempest Ranger, which is a full-blown 100%)

The maximum chance to bash with any shield is 35% for Stalwart Fighters who train the Improved Shield Bash feat.

Now when you throw in the "rare" shields (the ones with the enchantment that gives you a chance to auto-bash) it goes up to 55% for Stalwarts.

Everyone else gets 20 - 40%.

[Seikojin]

or an actual S&B line of feats.

Currently there is one: shield mastery and single weapon fighting. The only way to maximize their use is with splash of bard and using a buckler.

Some corrections.

~ If the Bladeforged gets 45 PRR (s)he is using Admantite plating which counts as heavy armor and couldn't get Evasion. Mithral plating provides 15 PRR and can use Evasion.

~ I think you missed the fact that large or tower shields will double MRR versus damaging attacks that allow a Reflex save. So that 200 MRR will turn to 400 against anything that Evasion works against. That's ~73% mitigation, plus the heavy armor character can still possibly make a saving throw for half damage. While the absolute mitigation might not be as good the damage input will be much less spikey making these characters easier to heal in a frenetic battle, especially at the highest levels where two failed reflex saving throws might mean death.

~ The fact that characters designed as tanks can't hold agro is on our list. While we don't want to turn DDO into a strict trinity game (we like that you don't have to necessarily play towards that paradigm) we also don't want tanks to be useless either.

~ One handed fighting feats will not work with shields. We prefer a design that keeps the various fighting styles pure. On the other hand, if the DPS tree makes shield bashes hit as hard as we are imagining you will want the increased chance to shield bash from the shield feats. We just have to make sure that the increased shield bashes don't work while blocking because, let's face it a strategy where all you do is hold block and click for big shield bashes would really not be fun.

Sev~

Bolded the scarey. Why not have a shield bypass for swf in the pre's that could gain the benefit from swf the most: fighters and paladins. I mean you can have a swf bypass that includes utlity for shield offhand use. Bashes, auto-deflects, etc. No reason not to outside of what dps you gain from it; which bards already get with swashbuckling.

[LuKaSu]

Some people asked about Warforged and Bladeforged.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Mithral Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Light Armor. They can have Evasion and Improved Evasion. They gain 15 PRR and MRR like the light armors will provide.

Warforged and Bladeforged with the Admantite Body feat will be treated as though they are wearing Heavy Armor. They cannot use Evasion or Improved Evasion. They gain 45 PRR and MRR.

Sev~

Sorry to go back several pages, but what about WF Melee Artificers? Unless it's been recently changed, WF can't get PRR without Heavy Armor proficiency, and Heavy Armor proficiency isn't on selectable WF feats list. It seems to me that (at minimum), WF should be able to select Heavy Armor, so they can get the PRR (and now the MRR) from Adamantine plating. Alternatively, it would seem just fine to me if Heavy Armor proficiency was auto-granted with Adamantine Body Plating, since it already costs a feat for the plating in the first place.

[lyrecono]

Sorry to go back several pages, but what about WF Melee Artificers? Unless it's been recently changed, WF can't get PRR without Heavy Armor proficiency, and Heavy Armor proficiency isn't on selectable WF feats list. It seems to me that (at minimum), WF should be able to select Heavy Armor, so they can get the PRR (and now the MRR) from Adamantine plating. Alternatively, it would seem just fine to me if Heavy Armor proficiency was auto-granted with Adamantine Body Plating, since it already costs a feat for the plating in the first place.

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

[oradafu]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

This is a false argument for me.

Gaining the WF body feats should come with all the bonuses and penalties that the type of armor that it represents has, including Proficiency. It's a feat slot that is unnecessarily taking a slot for a race that other races aren't penalized with.

Getting Adamantine Body automatically prevents Evasion from working, so the argument that it will be abused that way is not an issue. That's not your argument, but it is one that other players have brought up before.

The WF Body really should be a freebie feat at creation, and it would alleviate the current feat penalty that players get. Another route would be to include an enhancement in the WF tree that allows WF to gain armor proficiency, as found in the Eldritch Knight trees. Heck, it could be merged with Inscribed Armor and the enhancement cost could be raised to 2 AP instead of 1 AP and it'd basically duplicate the Armor Proficiency enhancements in the Eldritch Knight trees (which I believe the spell failure in those enhancements don't work with docents anyway).

[lyrecono]

the wf body costing a feat is a remnant of the PnP where the feat outbalanced the benefits of not having to take of armor, lower armor pen, etc
I agree it not making much sense in the DDO.
The proficiency however should be something earned, you need training to be able to use armor.
Classes that actually needed armor got the proficiency they needed. If you want the proficiency, work for it.
Everybody can don a platemail, just like any wf can select adam. body. however, all those other races need to get proficient with it, just like the wf/bladeforged.
Don't expect the dev's to change the game because every light melee wants the prr/mrr that was designed for "real tanks".

[MangLord]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

For a high level warforged arty, the d6 hp hardly matters when you can pop a quickened reconstruct whenever you like. I've never tried a fleshie artificer, but I imagine the construct nature feat (or whatever they call it) allows you to self heal pretty well. Paladins are very self sufficient until their LoH run out, but fighters really rely on a beefy HP bar with only crummy silver flame pots for emergencies.

Honestly, I think quick, strong self healing is worth a lot more for tanking than high AC and the more traditional tanking traits. My lightly armored ranger is great for tanking a dragon in Thunder Peak until he eventually rolls a 1 on his reflex save. Cocoon and Energy Sheath allow me to survive a few bad rolls but it always catches up to me eventually, usually when the dragon is around 50% health and I start to deal with several incoming damage sources from fresh mobs.

[Ausdoerrt]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?

Last I checked, Arti infusions didn't suffer from ASF. So an arti can just grab the proficiency feat and enjoy the bonuses.

if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?

Not really, I'd say spending a feat slot on a body feat is equivalent to spending a feat slot on an armor proficiency. In fact, WF are already disadvantaged because (correct me if I'm wrong) taking level in a class, which auto-grants heavy armor proficiency doesn't give WF the equivalent body feat.

[LuKaSu]

how does full plate interact with artificer spell casting?
if heavy armor prof. is given with adam body, wouldn't that be giving wf/bladeforged toons an unfair advantage?
Whats stopping you from picking the feat as a regular feat or multiclassing, assuming it doesn't interfere with spell casting, taking the feat seems like a decent trade off.
From what i understood, the changes were made for (pali/fighter)"tanks", a melee artificer doesn't look to be designed like a frontline melee to me (d6 and all), though they could be good melee's like rogues or rangers. (also light armored).

The "get proficiency with body feat" thing was wishful thinking. I still think it's a good idea, but I don't expect they will implement it. I'd sure like them to, but it wasn't my main issue. The part I was trying to focus on is that (again, unless they've changed it recently) you can't take an armor proficiency feat on a WF. At all. Adamantine body is an Arty selectable feat, but they can't get the PRR from it, because they don't have proficiency for heavy armor, nor the ability to take it.