Spellsinger and Warchanter - Build Concepts and Goals

[DANTEIL]

the phrase "some Melee" bothers me as a THF Warchanter player. I already TR'd my strength based Assassin into a fighter because of proxy nerfs to that play style. I'd be annoyed if Swashbuckler became the def facto bard melee PrE, making it not just sub-optimal but gimpy to play a THF or TWF bard. There is no reason that Warchanter and Swashbuckler can't exist side by side (except for eSoS and similar weapons. But if you can designed your way into those, you can design your way out of those).

If I had to rank my goals as a Warchanter player:

• Self-buffing, self-healing Melee
• Some party healing (not as a main healer, but a solid secondary or tank healer)
• Party Buffing (this just happens as a side effect of being a bard. A bard is intrinsically not bad at party buffing)

I do like the idea of more healing in bards, but I'm wary of where it will lead to if you turn Warchanter into the "Bard Healing" tree.

As someone who also plays (and enjoys) a THF Warchanter (with Barb 1/Fight 1 splash), I like to echo these comments. Obviously, more/better self-healing would be great, and an improvement to many of the songs would also be great, but I do like swinging my big ol' great axe around.

[Vargouille]

Nice chart. The current proposal would give Warchanter superior Support (of all kinds) and Healing, compared to other trees, including caster (but not for self-casting as much as Spellsinger would get). This doesn't mean Spellsinger necessarily loses the abilities it has that relate to that, and we're happy to hear feedback about whether or not that should happen. (Leaving some of those in Spellsinger would make it harder to focus on support, but impact existing characters less.)

So far it seems like more players prefer Warchanter as the primary Healing tree vs. Spellsinger (though that doesn't mean Warchanter needs to be primarily about healing), though that's one of the more contentious points. There also appears to be a range of opinions as to how much melee support should be included in Warchanter. Again, this doesn't mean we're necessarily removing much of what's there as options.

Some of the changes to support Spellsinger may include spell changes, though exactly how much is not determined. (Wall of Sound still isn't anything more than accidentally leaked text.)

Thanks for the the great general feedback. We'll be looking into the individual ideas in more detail later, of course.

[khremlajn]

So far it seems like more players prefer Warchanter as the primary Healing tree vs. Spellsinger (though that doesn't mean Warchanter needs to be primarily about healing), though that's one of the more contentious points. There also appears to be a range of opinions as to how much melee support should be included in Warchanter. Again, this doesn't mean we're necessarily removing much of what's there as options.

People want to self heal, thats why they want healingg boost in warchanter tree.

As far as healing goes... bards got limited mana pool. As you can see in feedback, people want their warchanter to swing their big stick. That means less cha, no investment in feat(both meta and sp pool) and as result even worse sp bar.

I cant decide if its good or bad idea to move healing to warchanter tree. It would be different, as it used to be spellsinger thing(long time ago there were spellsingers that could act as primay healer thanks to heavy feats investment). Not sure if thats what people playing warchanters want.

[-Zephyr-]

People want to self heal, thats why they want healingg boost in warchanter tree.

As far as healing goes... bards got limited mana pool. As you can see in feedback, people want their warchanter to swing their big stick. That means less cha, no investment in feat(both meta and sp pool) and as result even worse sp bar.

I cant decide if its good or bad idea to move healing to warchanter tree. It would be different, as it used to be spellsinger thing(long time ago there were spellsingers that could act as primay healer thanks to heavy feats investment). Not sure if thats what people playing warchanters want.

I have to agree with this.
Warchanter can be the self-healing tree. But I think Spellsinger should remain the party-healing tree

[DagazUlf]

Warchanter can be the self-healing tree. But I think Spellsinger should remain the party-healing tree

Self-healing THF/TWF party buffer would be the fun and exciting role, but I'm not sure that is what is being proposed here. I'm certainly seeing/interpreting more of a party healing/party buffing/useless/boring role for the Warchanter being outlined for our feedback.

[Munkenmo]

Im casting my vote in the warchanters should be about party dps and party buffs songs whilst spell singers should be about spells and healing.

The game has always been that way, there is no need to change the status quo now. Give warchanters a healing amp song, dont make them healers.

[ponzo]

Just a thought, how do you all feel about this?

For spellsinger PRE an ability to expend a song and gain a sonic DoT component to any enchantment-based spell which successfully lands?

This would somewhat negate the need to create a whole host of new spells to provide dps and would give some interesting options for cc. You could probably have enhancements to boost this ability also.

It would probably be necessary to not let the DoTs overlap (i.e. mind fog/glitterdust/disco ball all ticking individually in the same physical location).

Crazy or workable?

[FlaviusMaximus]

A copy of a thread I made prior to creation of the swashbuckler; I think Warchanter will need a lot more work now to make it a viable alternative play-style. A couple of these ideas could be a little out-dated, since I wrote this prior to some changes. I'm not necessarily advocating all of these changes at once, but a lot of them would be suitable.

HEALING
Fine. Bards are in a good place.

BUFFING
Firstly, everything needs to stack. BAM, you have a super valuable support character again.

1) Spellsong Trance, should stack with guild buffs

2) Song of Arcane Might should stack with Arcane Augmentation

3) Song of Heroism should stack with GH (perhaps make it +2, with that in mind)

4) Warmaster: Stupid competence bonus should be changed to something else. So it stacks with Deadly items.

5) Ironskin Chant: stack DR please

6) Inspire Recklessness: Stacking 6% double strike. Keep the fort penalty; people go beyond 100% anyway.

7) Rallying cry +1 save bonus should stack

These changes would make the Warchanter Tree very worthwhile, rather than rubbish it currently is.

8 ) I would change Inspire Courage to twice the damage (including Fatesinger bonuses)- maybe this could 'kick in' at epic levels.

9) Introduce new song, or Add to Trance/Might: Song of Heightening - raises bard spell levels to Level 9. This would make up +3 DC, putting bards slightly behind a Wizard, with less spell options. Then we could drop the Heightening Feat, freeing up a feat on a very feat starved class.

10) Inspire Courage, should proc all the songs you want on the party. So you only have to sing once. Singing multiple songs is boring and time consuming. Allow inspire to have toggles like metamagics. Adjust duration of all songs to match. This is a quality of life change.

11) Spell Song Vigor: re-break it. Allow it to work on more than one person.

CC
1) Fix Fascinate Undead/Constructs so they work consistently.(think that is fixed now, although I haven't been playing much recently to test)

2) Prodigy 3rd rank: All bard spells use enchantment for their DC. Would make a bard Soundburst (instead of Exalted Angel soundburst) very useful.

3) Bring in Mass Hold Monster, under Maestro of Life and Death (change name to Maestro of ...)

4) Copied from 9 above: Introduce new song, or Add to Trance/Might: Song of Heightening - raises bard spell levels to Level 9. This would make up +3 DC, putting bards slightly behind a Wizard, with less spell options. They could also drop the Heightening Feat, freeing up a feat on a very feat starved class.

DPS
1) Charisma to hit and damage: All bards should be able to do a bit of damage. DPS bards will still go the strength route because of more strength raising options, overwhelming crit, etc. Getting half of this, the damage in Swashbuckler I believe. Available to all the bard trees might be nice.

2) Sonic SLAS instead? So caster bards can do a bit of DPS.

3) Sonic dot. Not convinced on this, but caster bards should be able to do a bit of dps to bosses.

4) Fatesinger - Turn the Tide, should work on bosses. Ridiculous it doesn't.

5) Fatesinger - Allow Dirge to be affected by spell power.

6) Howl of the North-should stack with other crit multipliers. I haven't tested this, since Warchanter is so lame, but I heard that it currently doesn't (yay more non-stacking warchanter stuff!). If it does currently stack, all good...

7) The cold damage enhancements are lame. Maybe allow a toggle which allows the bard to choose between cold and sonic. Sonic would play nice with Fatesinger's Harmonic Resonance.

Note, Wail of the Banshee will now be effective for killing, rather than just debuffing, since all Bard spells use enchantment for DC as per above. Still, I'd rather have some of my other ideas than have Wail of the Banshee at all.

At the moment Warchanter is full of useless fluff and too much flavour instead of practicality.

My priority would be to buff the buffing first -I want Bards to be highly desired for this aspect of their game.

I normally don't like to quote walls of text because it takes up so much space, but I made an exception because there are a lot of good ideas in this post.

[Mryal]

Well, since im a bored person at times.I decided to express a more...detailed feedback.A whole new warchanter tree!

Concept : Unlike the Swashbuckler, who is a solo fighter focused more on improving himself, the Warchanter is here to bring your whole party to war.The warchanter favors more those that put their face in the fight, not those who shoot arrows from the back.He also improves the party's defenses as a whole.

Cores :

1. Skalding Rage : Same as before.this one is a winner, afterall
2. Fighting Spirit : For each Warchanter core : +5 positive spellpower, and Adds to Inspire Courage : +1 damage,+1 attack
3. Song of Heroism : Adds to inspire courage : GH for everyone.Requires 4 perform, etc.
4. Ironskin : Adds to inspire Greatness : +PRR bonuses, equal to your +armor bonus to AC + your Shield bonus to AC.
5. Victory Song : Adds to inspire courage: While wielding a melee weapon : +1 critical threat range on 19-20.Stacks with everything else.
6. Warmaster : +2 to all abbility Scores.+1 to all saves.+1 to all skills.Adds to Inspire Greatness : +2 to all abbility scores.

Tier 1 :
All exacty as before.Except Enchant Weapons instead is a spell like abbility, with 3 sp cost/2 sec cooldown

Tier 2 :
Action boost : Sprint : same as before
Elemental Weapons : 1 rank, 2 AP.Requires : Enchant Weapon.Elemental Weapons SLA, 8 sp, 2 seconds cooldown.
Hardy Rage : 1 rank, 2 AP : +2 Constitution while on Skaldic Rage.
Brutish Anthen : 2 ranks, 1 AP : Adds to Inspire Courage : +1/+2 damage while on Power Attack Stance.
Combat Style Focus : 2 AP, 1 rank : Choose Between:
TWF focus : You focus on suporting TWF, Adds to Inspire Courage : +10% offhand doublestrike
THF Focus : You focus on suporting THF : Adds to Inspire Courage : +10% physical damage while THF.
Thrown Focus : You focus on suporting thrown combat : Adds to Inspire Courage : +5% Doubleshot while using a thrower.

Tier 3:
Combat Style Focus : Pick one you didnt pick before.
Strength or Charisma.
Obstinance : Same as before.
High Spirits : Same as the Tier 4 from current warchanter.
Anthem of Bravery : 3 ranks, 1 ap.Adds to Inspire Courage : +1/+2/+3 to all saves.

Tier 4:
Strength or Charisma
Sustaining Song : (moved from ss, and improved): Applies a Healing effect to all Alies : 1d4+1 healing every 4 seconds, affected by the bards spellpower.Additonaly : When attacking with a melee weapon: 10% chance of 1d8+1 healing, affected by the bards spellpower.
Combat Maestry 2 AP, 1 rank, Requires : +7 BAB.Grants one free feat from the list:
Improved Critical : Slashing.
Improved Critical : Piercing.
Improved Critical : Bludgeoning
Thrown Expertise : You have a chance equal to your Strenght or Dexterity (wichever is higher) to thrown an additional time when making a thrown attack.This does not stack with Shuriken Expertise.

Tier 5:
Anthem of War : 1 AP, 3 ranks : You sing a song that grants your allies +5/+10/+15 PRR, +3/6/10% doublestrike and +2/+4/+6% doubleshot.Requires 11 perform.
Armorer : Same as before.
Skaldic Wrath 2 AP, 1 rank: While on skaldic rage : +1 threat range with all weapons, and +1 damage.
Enchanted Fury 2 AP, 1 Rank: Rage effects no longer prevent you from using bard spells and Primal spells.Additionaly, if you have Barbarian rage : +1 use per rest.

[bbqzor]

The current proposal would give Warchanter superior Support (of all kinds) and Healing, compared to other trees, including caster

Then the current proposal is wrong. Warchanter has been, and always should be, about a party buffing melee bard with better survival and self sufficiency. Self healing isnt the same as group healing, and warchanter should only support casting insofar as sonic/evocation cc/dps effects.

(but not for self-casting as much as Spellsinger would get). This doesn't mean Spellsinger necessarily loses the abilities it has that relate to that, and we're happy to hear feedback about whether or not that should happen. (Leaving some of those in Spellsinger would make it harder to focus on support, but impact existing characters less.)

This. Dont remove stuff from spellsinger, and dont impact existing characters. You are wanting to turn spellsinger into a sorc-bard, and then make warchanter into what spellsinger is now. Dont. Just Dont. Its a slap in the face to your player base and goes against years of game play and design.

So far it seems like more players prefer Warchanter as the primary Healing tree vs. Spellsinger (though that doesn't mean Warchanter needs to be primarily about healing), though that's one of the more contentious points.

No it doesnt, how are you even getting that. On live, anyone who has a raid level healing bard is spellsinger. Anyone who has some patch healing but wants more melee uptime instead of casting/singing a lot, is warchanter. Im sure there are exceptions, but the vast majority are that setup. For a reason. Why are you thinking otherwise? The few posts in this thread which say that? They probably dont even have epic level bards they play regularly, let alone in EE. Thats how it was in shroud, thats how it is now in EE, dont mess with it.

There also appears to be a range of opinions as to how much melee support should be included in Warchanter. Again, this doesn't mean we're necessarily removing much of what's there as options.

It should have something roughly similar to what it has now, with some boosts to bring it in line with everything else. As has been pointed out (by numerous posters) the current things are at odds with themselves and the game. Skaldic Rage -4 AC, with Rough and Ready +6 AC is one obvious example. It should keep the support it has for TWF and THF so that bards have all three melee combat styles supported (as swash covers SWF, and bards should maintain enough flexibility to be viable with any setup, that is one of their ddo hallmarks since the dawn of ddo).

Some of the changes to support Spellsinger may include spell changes, though exactly how much is not determined. (Wall of Sound still isn't anything more than accidentally leaked text.)

While not necessarily bad, let me again iterate: Bards Are Not Sorcs. Bards Are Bards. Spellsingers Are Group-Healing-CC-Support Casters. Warchanters Are Self-Healing-Offensive-Buff Casters. If you are re-writing that just to make sorc-bards, you're doing it wrong.

Thanks for the the great general feedback. We'll be looking into the individual ideas in more detail later, of course.

A tenative you're welcome... if we see spellsinger die to become a wannabe sorc, and warchanter die into a buff/heal bot, you are going to be making a lot of your players unhappy and disappointed. Which, when dealing with bards who are already generally emo at the current state of things, is a feat indeed... but not one Id be proud of. Think carefully, and remember that Low-Impact on existing characters and paradigms is critical. We want to go "omg this is like what I have but better" not "gah need to reroll and the thing I was got deleted". Thanks, hopefully.

[Delacroix21]

Ok, so I read your proposal about making war chanter the all around buffer and healer and I am ok with that. It makes sense for bards to have a a caster tree, a meele tree, and a buffing tree.


But the problem is you made swashbuckler TOO focused on SWF. To the point where there is almost no abilities that work outside of SWF. All the swashbuckler NEEDS is the core crit range and multiplier enhancement to distinguish itself.


So here is what I suggest:
1. Core benefits don't require swashbuckling (except the crit range and multiplier one)
2. Sword dance doesn't require swashbuckling
3. Different tack doesn't require SWF
4. Battering barrage doesn't require swashbuckling
5. Thread the needle doesn't require swashbuckling
6. Exploit weakness doesn't require swashbuckling
7. Second skin doesn't require swashbuckling



Now bards have a MEELE tree instead of just a SWF tree, and warchanter can be focused on buffing and healing. The tree still benefits SWF most, but is usefull and viable for a TWF or THF bard. Please strongly consider this Devs. Don't force bards into SWF for Melee dps.

[unbongwah]

The current proposal would give Warchanter superior Support (of all kinds) and Healing, compared to other trees, including caster (but not for self-casting as much as Spellsinger would get).

The problem I have with this is WC has never been the healer-centric bard PrE - Spellsinger is. WC has always been the melee-DPS-centric PrE, so any changes to SS & WC should build upon what players already expect from them, not trying to redefine their roles, IMHO. Also, every bard is already a "party support" toon, so there's no point in suggesting WCs become more support-centric. The PrEs give you a way to customize how you support the party, whether it's boosting the casters (SS) or the melees (WC).

[MangLord]

I actually like the idea of each bard tree focusing on a different area of bard specialization. I think swashbuckler will do just fine as a melee tree for bards, should they choose to go that route. Spellsinger would be very cool as a CC and spell-heavy option, and Warchanter seems good as a supportive tree to dip into, or something very good for a bard filling a specific role in a static group. I don't think it's a good idea for warchanter to be another melee oriented tree for bards, because that just waters down a third tree when it could provide a lot of options for a spellsinger or swashbuckler to dip into for synergistic benefits depending on playstyle. Trying to cover too many bases with a single tree only serves to water down the overall effect. Eldritch Knight is a good example of a tree trying to be what it can't, and winds up as wasted space and development time.

As a primary tree for a bard looking to play a more casting oriented role, Spellsinger should have large boosts to sonic spellpower and crowd control DC casting. Sonic spells and enchantment should provide the foundation for this tree. If someone chooses to play a pure bard and focus on CC and casting spells, they only really have power with sonic spells, so their focus should be rewarded with a fairly substantial amount of sonic spellpower. The same thing is given to sorcerers and lets face it, you'll need to devote much of your feat usage towards spell DCs and your melee capability will diminish considerably. I think its fair to give Spellsinger a fairly generous amount of sonic spellpower, since it comes at a sacrifice to melee capability and sonic spells are very weak in the current game.

Similar to the way rogue trees have a lot of good stuff you want at the bottom of the trees, I feel like warchanter is perfect for an enhancement to speed up songs. Warchanting is playing a song in the heat of battle, and you need to play fast. Everyone knows that bard songs, particularly Fascinate, takes so long to play that its very hard to use effectively. An ability to quicken songs would be incredible as a first or second tier ability for warchanter. Maybe...
Flying Fingers - Songs play 10/20/30% quicker.
Making bard songs play faster would make a dip into Warchanter an early must have, just like frontloaded faster sneaking in rogue acrobat tree is essential for an assassin.

Warchanter might focus on bonuses to support play, such as healing, buffs and low cost SLA buff effects like a mass heal or AOE inspire competence. In my opinion, Warchanter, as it is now, needs to be completely redone. It's an awful tree from top to bottom. Adding Heal spell to the bard spellbook would be nice, but it needs to be potentially accessible to someone focusing primarily on the Spellsinger or Swashbuckler tree. Putting it at tier four is probably too high up the tree for a swashbuckler, since their tree costs so much AP. That could be fair if Spellsinger tree is less demanding, so caster builds might have an easier time getting Heal than a primarily melee focused bard.

I do appreciate personal playstyle, but I feel like people currently playing bards are using warchanter as a way to play a bard as a fighter variant. Not that they aren't forced to, since there aren't other options. I don't see the need for warchanter to offer another melee option when swashbuckler is already there. If someone wants to swing a greataxe, Kensei tree is already there with some fighter levels. If someone wants to dual wield, tempest tree is there with ranger levels. I'd like warchanter to be a great, frontloaded tree to dip into similar to cleric warpriest or rogue mechanic. It should be great for group support, but frontloaded enough that its easy to dip into for someone wanting to focus heavily in Spellsinger or Swashbuckler. Just my opinion.

What I really want to see are trees that work with each other, and compliment the abilities of dipping into other trees, rather than trying to fit a little bit of everything into each tree. People should want to focus on one tree depending on how they like to play. I hate generalized trees that become milquetoast in an effort to cover too many bases. Despite some problems, artificer trees allow you to focus more on a repeater and rune arm playstyle, or focus more on spellcasting and SLAs. I like having that focused option.

Here's how I'd like to see the trees, boiled down to basic playstyle:
Spellsinger- Offensive casting and CC play
Warchanter- Support and party buffing play
Swashbuckler- Melee focused play

[Seikojin]

It will be easier for me to respond regarding specifics if I have a clearer idea of your overall intentions.

So ... applying reflexive listening ... I am taking what I've read from you about this so far and graphing it so that it makes more sense to me.



Do I have this right?

Hey, this is starting to look like a blog article for next week.

Thanks for the chart. it helps categorize and narrow some stuff down.

For spellsinger:
Drop general suppor down by half, bump up casting and healing up a bit.

For Swashbuckler,
drop healing down a bit and general support down a bit. Bump up melee support to the half point.

For warchanter:
Drop healing down a bit and boost melee.

Overall, I think Swashbucjkler is the single target melee and ranged, warchanter should be the aoe melee and ranged, and spellsinger should be dc and dps casting. The buffs should be focus for that as well. Songs in the tier 1 and 2 range should offer generic bonuses:
Spellsinger offers some song durations, and extra songs, and song = sp bonuses/refills when singing, then higher tiers offer dc boosting, spellpower, and the uniques that already exist.
Warchanter offers hit and damage boosting, extra songs , and song = hp bonuses/heals when singing, then higher tiers offer dr's boosting, prr, crit multipliers, glancing blow upgrades, etc., on top of its current boosts.
Swashbuckler should offer more song duration, extra song regeneration, and song = bonuses to saves, then higher tiers could offer songs to add doublestrike, attack speed, and cript expansion (range and multiplier).

[Thumbed_Servant]

People want to self heal, thats why they want healingg boost in warchanter tree.

As far as healing goes... bards got limited mana pool. As you can see in feedback, people want their warchanter to swing their big stick. That means less cha, no investment in feat(both meta and sp pool) and as result even worse sp bar.

I cant decide if its good or bad idea to move healing to warchanter tree. It would be different, as it used to be spellsinger thing(long time ago there were spellsingers that could act as primay healer thanks to heavy feats investment). Not sure if thats what people playing warchanters want.

I agree.

Bards Spellsingers have historically been the focus of spell support, including healing spells, for parties while Warchanters were the melee buffers and self buffers. The Spellsinger bard should be the bard prestige most capable of healing should they so choose to focus for that.

Throwing around MORE healing capability should be done VERY carefully. Giving serious healing outside of the divine purview (Rejuvenation Cocoon, Healing Spring, Bladeforged SLA Reconstruct, etc) is one of the reasons the game is LESS party friendly today. "I am self sufficient" "Be self sufficient" etc etc...the game is turning into a Massively Online SOLO Game...many people logged in but many playing alone. While we are spreading even more healing outside of the divines, why don't we go ahead and give Trap Finding as an Epic Destiny ability, low enough to be twistable, and while we're at it shouldn't a Ninja be able to remove traps?...so give the Monk Ninja some trapping abilities in their trees. Won't seeing 60 plus percent of the server playing Monk-Ninja/Bard-Warchanters who can self heal, do traps, have evasion and melee/range all soloing or running trough dungeons totally oblivious to anyone else in the party be fun? Sarcasm? Yes. Bleeding of abilities into more and more classes leads to a less and less group oriented game. So you won't take from Spellchanters but will give the Warchanter MORE healing? More more more....it's POWER CREEP to the extreme, and balancing this by raising that does nothing but increase the power creep.

My point? WEIGH this carefully. Healing is VERY powerful in the game...raising yet another class and/or prestige to have more healing is VERY significant: It can, it already HAS changed the fabric of the gaming society within DDO...shifted it much more towards the soloist or the six soloists running in the same party but working very little with each other and away from needing and building parties to successfully surmount the games obstacles.

[MangLord]

The problem I have with this is WC has never been the healer-centric bard PrE - Spellsinger is. WC has always been the melee-DPS-centric PrE, so any changes to SS & WC should build upon what players already expect from them, not trying to redefine their roles, IMHO. Also, every bard is already a "party support" toon, so there's no point in suggesting WCs become more support-centric. The PrEs give you a way to customize how you support the party, whether it's boosting the casters (SS) or the melees (WC).

I really don't see a problem with switching the role of a PrE entirely. In my eyes, the current bard trees are discombobulated and in need of focus. In real life a business might just throw all its invoices in a cardboard box in the corner, when a filing system would be far more efficient and effective. Just because things have been done badly for so long doesn't mean that's the right way to do it.

It could definitely be a little uncomfortable at first for long time bard players, but remember the big enhancement switch with U19? I hated it for a couple days and got used to it. Now I'd never want to go back.

I don't see a problem with a casting-focused bard being equal to or better than a wizard, or a swashbuckler bard being a competent, yet different melee fighter. Wizards will also be able to cast death spells and AOE elemental damage, and a fighter will always provide more raw DPS. Spellsinger should be the premier CC character. Swashbuckler should be an alternative to the greatweapon warrior or dual wielding rogue. If you want to THF or TWF, there's more than enough options for both as other classes. Just because bard has been the bastard child of DDO forever doesn't mean it has to stay that way. This is a good chance to buck the status quo, so I suggest we as players take advantage of the devs reaching out.

With the addition of swashbuckler, warchanter needs to find a new niche to fill. To call warchanter a DPS tree is hilarious in my opinion. It's melee centric, but woefully underpowered. I think allowing Spellsinger to become wholly focused on casting would be a good thing, and warchanter is a great tree to augment songs and other unique bard abilities with swashbuckler filling in the melee combat role.

[N-0cturn]

I already stated here what I don’t like about the current trees and there are already a lot of good suggestions in this thread.
Please listen to your players. If many people ask to combine songs or introduce a “sing all” button, that’s because constant rebuffing of songs with a long animation is a major concern for many bard players. The same goes for other topics which you hear again and again, when a thread about bards is opened.

Anyway, instead of repeating the same stuff I decided to do a brainstorming how I would personally change both trees (considering the goals in the OP) without introducing to many new features which would take more time. I hope this helps:

Warchanter

Core Abilities

• Warchanter +10 Positive Spell Power, Each Warchanter Core Ability you acquire after this one grants 2% critical chance with positive spells. Skaldic Rage - live version
• Fighting Spirit +10 Positive Spell Power, +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
• Song of Heroism +10 Positive Spell Power , Song of Heroism - live version
• Fighting Spirit +10 Positive Spell Power, +10 HP. Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
• Healing Hymn +10 Positive Spell Power, You gain the Heal spell as level 6 Bard spell.
• Warmaster +20 Positive Spell Power, +10 HP, +2 Strength and Constitution, Inspire Courage grants an additional +1 damage.
  Active: Battlefocus - Expend a Song to get +2 to Hit and damage, +10% elemental absorption and +10 PRR. Spontaneous Song, base duration: 2 minutes - I added this as an active ability, to make sure there is still enough incentive to get more songs after several songs have been combined.
  

Tier One

• The Poetic Edda +(1/2/3) Attack +(1/2/3) Bard Songs
• Enchant Weapon Enchant Weapons is added to your spellbook as level 1 Bard spell.
• Rough and Ready +(2/4/6) Armor Class, +(2/4/6)Physical Resistance Rating
• 
  

Tier Two

• Action Boost: Sprint +35%/+40%/+50% Action Boost bonus to movement speed for 20 seconds.
• Improved Power Attack (1 AP) Your Power Attack feat does 1/2/3 additional point of bonus damage but also has an additional -1/-2/-3 to your attack bonus.
• Blood of the North (1AP)+ (2/4/6) Energy Resistance
• Ironskin (1AP) You gain +(2/4/6)/- DR and +(3/6/10) % bardic bonus to fortification
• Ironskin Chant ) (1AP) When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +(2/4/6)/- DR and +(3/6/10) % bardic bonus (Does not stack with Ironskin) to fortification for four minutes. Requires: Ironskin
  

Tier Three

• Combat Style Choose one (2AP):
  1. You gain + 3/6/10 % chance to make offhand attacks while wielding two weapons
  2. You gain +1/3/5% chance of triggering weapon effects on glancing blows and +3/6/10 % glancing blow damage while wielding a two-handed weapon
• The Frozen Fury (1AP) Make a melee attack with +0.5[W]/+1[W]/+1.5[W] damage. Affected enemies must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + Charisma modifier + Bard level) or become frozen solid for several seconds. (Cooldown: 20/15/10 seconds) Requires: Blood of the North
• High Spirits (1AP) You gain + (3/6/10) % bardic bonus to healing Amplification, Tier 3: You are immune to Fatigue
• Inspire High Spirits (1AP) When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +(3/6/10) % bardic bonus (Does not stack with High Spirits) to healing Amplification for four minutes. Requires: High Spirits
• Strength or Charisma

Tier Four

• Northwind While under Skaldic Rage, you deal an additional (2d8/4d8/6d8) Cold damage when you score vorpal hits and the enemy gets 1d3+1 stacks of Vulnerable. Requires: The Frozen Fury
• Reckless Fighter (1AP) Toggle: You gain +(2/4/6)% bardic bonus to doublestrike and -10% fortification. Tier 3: You gain +1 use of Barbarian Rage if you possess that ability
• Inspire Recklessness (1 AP ) When you Inspire Courage, allies gain +(2/4/6)% bardic bonus (does not stack with Reckless Fighting) to doublestrike and -10% fortification. Requires: Reckless Fighter - This should still appear as a separate effect in the buff bar and gets disabled, when a defensive stance is enabled
• Strength or Charisma

Tier Five

• Armorer (2AP) Gain Medium Armor Proficiency and the ability to cast arcane spells in medium armor without arcane spell failure. You also gain +10 PRR.
• Howl of the North (2AP) You gain +1 critical damage multiplier on attack rolls of 19-20 while under Skaldic Rage. Requires: Northwind
• Weapon Group Training (2AP) You gain Martial Weapon proficiency, and your base attack bonus is equal to your character level
• Song of the Heart (2AP) This improves the following core bard songs:
  - Inspire Courage: additional +2 morale bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws versus fear.
  - Inspire Competence: Gives one ally a +4 untyped bonus to all skill checks.
  - Inspire Greatness: Gives a +4 competence bonus to attack rolls, a +3 competence bonus to Fortitude saves, and 50 temporary hit points to the Bard and his or her party.
  - Inspire Heroics: Gives a +6 morale bonus to all saving throws and a +6% dodge bonus
  - This is originally a Feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting, see here

Spellsinger

There is still some room, in T2 and T3 of SS and it should Include at least one more Sonic SLA for damage against bosses. However the storm in my mind is gone and there is not a single idea left.

Core Abilities

• Spellsinger Each AP spent in Spellsinger grants +1 Universal Spell Power. Each Spellsinger Core Ability you acquire after this one grants +1 Diplomacy, Listen, Perform, UMD and 2% critical chance with sonic spells. - Moved positive crit chance to Warchanter
• Music of the Dead Your Fascinate gains the power to mesmerize Undead
• Music of the Makers Your Fascinate gains the power to mesmerize Constructs
• Cacophonic Shield SLA – centered on the caster. All enemies in a 10-ft.-radius take 2d6 + 1 / caster level sonic damage. Deals damage every 2 seconds, for a total of 30 seconds. (10 seconds cooldown) The dnd Spell is a Wall of sound, but I cannot think of a good way to visualize this ingame – An effect coming from the caster would probably be easier
  Spell Point Cost: 30, affected by sonic spellpower and metamagic feats
• Virtuoso +20% bard song duration, , Inspiring Echoes Same effect as Elyd Edge
• Sublime Chord +2 Charisma, +10 Universal Spell Power, +20 sonic spellpower, You gain the Hold Monster, Mass and Wail of the Banshee spells as level 6 Bard spells. I personally don’t care much for Wail, but I think there are some Player that like it, Heal would still be available for a player that focuses on SS and WC (Core 5 WC)
  Active: Mind over Music - Expend a Song to get + 3 DC to all spells, spontaneous Song, base duration: 3 minutes I added this as an active ability, to make sure there is still enough incentive to get more songs after several have been combined.

Tier One

• Studies: Choose either Magical Studies or Musical Studies to advance your training - same as live
• Lingering Songs - same as live
• Charlatan +(1/2/3) Concentration, +(1/2/3) Perform, Rank 3 You regenerate 1 Song every 5 minutes (1AP)
• Haunting Melody - same as live

Tier Two

• Sharp Note Your Fascinate ability now also grants nearby allies a +(1/2/3) bonus to damage for 60 seconds.
• Wand and Scroll Mastery +25%/+50%/+75% effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +1/+2/+3 to the save DCs of your offensive wands. (1 AP) - Change the costs from Mechanic to 1 AP as well
• Marigold Crown - same as live
  

Tier Three

• Enthrallment (2AP) When you use Fascinate enemies become enthralled instead of fascinated and only have a chance based on your perform DC to break free, when damaged. Other abilities that improve Fascinate still apply.
• Song of Arcane Power Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +2 bardic bonus to caster level for spells cast by you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level. (2 AP) - I found +1 caster level always a bit weak
• Charisma

Tier Four

• Spell Song Vigor When you use Song of Arcane Power you and all nearby allies are affected by Spell Song Vigor which restores spell points over time (2AP)
• Frolic When you sing a Song of Freedom on an ally, they gain a Freedom of Movement for 1 minute plus thirty seconds per caster level..
• Spell Penetration (1AP) +(1/2/3) to your level when trying to overcome enemy's Spell Resistance.
• Charisma

Tier Five

• Spell Song Trance When you use Song of Arcane Power you and all nearby allies are affected by Spell Song Trance which grants a +1 bardic bonus to spell DC's and 10% bardic discount on spell point costs to you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per bard level. (2AP)
• Chose one:
  1. Advanced Magical Studies : +65/+130/+200 Spell Points.
  2. Advanced Musical Studies: +1/+2/+3 Bard Songs per rest and + 10 / +20 / +30 % bard song duration - This should be a real choice
• Prodigy
  +(1/2/ 3) Concentration and Perform
  +(1/2/ 3) Spell Penetration
  +( 0/0/1) to DCs of your Enchantment spells
  -The the temporary SP effect is bugged and useless. Currently on live when you sing it the first time you get 20 SP, but after a second 10 of those SP disappear again. If you sing it while having the 60 second effect you will get 10 SP and lose them after a second. To change this from a simple and nice SP regeneration effect based on Perform into a buggy temporary SP effect was a terrible decision.
• Song of Capering (2AP) - same as live

[Drevok]

We have the eril flynn, 3 musketeers, typre bard i.e swashbuckler.
Is there a movie or book that can better show the concept of the remaining two bards types?

I've pictured spellsingers as a bit nerdy bards that dable with the arcane, and war chanters as musical barbarians, sing the song of war while fighting along side.
As mentioned many times, I think spellsingers as cc, party healers, spell buffers should remain so.
Warchanters tree really needs help. Focus on buffing melees, improved songs, improve combat resilience and perhaps more sonic procs in combat

[Sebastrd]

Nice chart. The current proposal would give Warchanter superior Support (of all kinds) and Healing, compared to other trees, including caster (but not for self-casting as much as Spellsinger would get). This doesn't mean Spellsinger necessarily loses the abilities it has that relate to that, and we're happy to hear feedback about whether or not that should happen. (Leaving some of those in Spellsinger would make it harder to focus on support, but impact existing characters less.)

So far it seems like more players prefer Warchanter as the primary Healing tree vs. Spellsinger (though that doesn't mean Warchanter needs to be primarily about healing), though that's one of the more contentious points. There also appears to be a range of opinions as to how much melee support should be included in Warchanter. Again, this doesn't mean we're necessarily removing much of what's there as options.

Some of the changes to support Spellsinger may include spell changes, though exactly how much is not determined. (Wall of Sound still isn't anything more than accidentally leaked text.)

Thanks for the the great general feedback. We'll be looking into the individual ideas in more detail later, of course.

You can add me to the list of folks that doesn't want to see Warchanter losing its melee niche to the Swashbuckler. The fact that Swashbuckler gets the all-important Evasion feats already gives it a leg up when it comes to the end game.

[Rautis]

The current proposal would give Warchanter superior Support (of all kinds) and Healing, compared to other trees, including caster (but not for self-casting as much as Spellsinger would get). This doesn't mean Spellsinger necessarily loses the abilities it has that relate to that, and we're happy to hear feedback about whether or not that should happen. (Leaving some of those in Spellsinger would make it harder to focus on support, but impact existing characters less.)

Don't break what isn't broken. Make healing stay in spellsinger. To make Warchanters the best tree for healing you pretty much have to move following spellsinger abilities to warchanter:

• 10% healing crits
• 1 healing spell power per AP
• Sustaining Song
• Spellsong vigor(this is huge, without spell points you can't heal)
• +300 spell points and Magical Training from tier 1 and 5 Magical Training(again, you can't heal without spell points)
• +5 UMD from spellsinger cores for heal scroll use
• Wand and Scroll Mastery
• Heal spell from spellsinger core

If you keep some of the things in spellsinger and move some things to warchanter you can easily create situation where you have to spend 30+points in both spellsinger(tier 5 for more spell points and sp regen) and in warchanter to have similar healing ability bards can now have with 41 points in spellsinger. This ruins classic Heals+CC bards.

Of the two currently live bard trees spellsinger is the quite acceptable one. It takes only minor adjustments to make it great. Warchanter on other hand is much closer to horrible than acceptable. I wouldn't mind if it got completely rewritten.