Spellsinger and Warchanter - Build Concepts and Goals

[maddmatt70]

[/LIST]

Melee should be a much higher goal with a focus on THF or TWF and the replacement of several of those current abilities which are just horrible (e.g., the ice stuff). Perhaps more abilities that utilize sonic to increase melee damage, or speed, or doublestrike, or something.

Some kind of an aura/AoE solution similar to Warpriest would be great for the Warchanter. Think of a low continuous chant that is continuously ongoing from the Warchanter which benefits allies/hurts enemies within range.

There ya go.

Not viable with swashbuckler here. No bard that wants to be mostly about killing things will choose warchanter over swashbuckler and that is o.k.. A lot of people over the years have loved play buffing/healing bards and making warchanter for them would be great.

[Toro12]

Bards are suffering from the same problems that AC and weaponry did previously. They were balanced for when max level was 10 and a +5 sword to hit the knights in tempest spine made you the baddest mofo on the block.
Back then +2or +3 to hit and damage were super awesome bonuses spread that across an entire party or even better raid group and you were talking some serious help. Add to that some haste and a touch of healing and you had a great class. Thing is it doesn't scale well , not even like it has been tried to be scaled.
Now with all the new loot for melee to pick up tons more damage and don't even get me started on 6sp free maximized , empowered , heightened , quickened acid blasts or blast rods attainable at level 4.

Meanwhile bards are still like "guys I can give you. +2 to hit!" "Can't do any real damage myself but +2to hit !"
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Now I'm seeing the problems with bards as how to make them better with enhancements to boost them up without making a party godlike if they have one.
Make bard buffs and such too strong and the group be ones godlike but you can't hold back too much but you can't focus too much on just making the bard stronger cause then you sti run in to the problem of the bard not being as good be it casting or melee as other builds. Even if you could , the songs and buffs would be an after thought and take away all the uniqueness that is bard.

=•=•=
Forgive the rant , it helps me think it through when I type it out.
I just had a great thought towards the end there. Now I need to run it through the filters and see if it holds up.

[lain5246]

first off, I hated the bard pre-enhancement overhaul, after the overhaul and with purple dragon knight, loved it... except i could hardly kill anything like a boss or high reflex saving mob. I did love frozen fury though. i also love being able to have heal and wail of the banshee, and hope that in the tweaks you make that you make those accessible in the spell singer 5th core and have a better capstone like a major sonic/any damaging spell. i also hope you keep frozen fury maybe improving its save some??? DEVS THANK YOU FOR THE IMPROVEMENTS YOU HAVE MADE SINCE I STARTED [PRE-VAULT OF ARTIFICERS].

[Toro12]

Not as wonderful of an idea as I thought but here goes.

Bards are about songs. The songs have taken a huge backseat cause they aren't terribly effective for really anything anymore. Having songs be such an afterthought means the damage and defense sacrifices you make to be a bard aren't offset by bonuses they bring.
They also kinda stink at soloing after a few levels for the same reason (not that I think that is bad but the game seems to be tilting that way)

So to make better use of that which makes bards unique is to have their songs buff them more than the rest of the party. And or have the bards songs be extra strong for the bard but have the bard give up personal benefits of the songs to be distributed around the party.
+10 damage for the bard or they can give up +3 of that for +5 to the rest of the party.
Or as another example ss vigor could give 10 points. Tic to the bard and none to anyone else or 5 to the bard and 5 to everyone else.

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Another aside that struck me was the other uniqueness that bards have that is way under uitilized in DDO is the social skills.
Some steps were made to make skills better recently but the social skills were left in the dark. Lots of skill points , full point access to almost every social skill and charisma as a primary stat is just begging to be better utilized.
Not any real idea on how to change or otherwise help improve social skills but that is screaming major bard improvement even if it isn't directed at them exclusively.

[DagazUlf]

Not viable with swashbuckler here. No bard that wants to be mostly about killing things will choose warchanter over swashbuckler and that is o.k.. A lot of people over the years have loved play buffing/healing bards and making warchanter for them would be great.

I just don't agree at all. I and a lot of others will just never play Swashbuckler with their choice of one-handed weaponry and think that Warchanter should somehow fill the void.

[HatsuharuZ]

We're currently planning some improvements to the Bard Warchanter and Bard Spellsinger enhancement trees. We've got some ideas to make these more powerful and well defined, and to work better to support Bard as a whole (along with Swashbuckler). These changes wouldn’t come out with Update 22, but would be one of the items we progress towards next.

Spellsinger remains the caster-oriented tree for Bards. At a high level, we're looking at improving spellcasting by adding some enhancements to support:

• DC based Casting
• Offensive DPS Casting
• Adding in SLAs (Spell-Like Abilities)

Warchanter would move towards greater party buffing and support.

• Party Buffing
• Healing
• Some Melee and Defense

We're interested in your feedback on these larger goals and concepts.

Thanks!

I like your goals. However, I don't think that "some melee and defense" is going to cut it. Bards already have "some melee and defense" in the warchanter tree, and it isn't enough. For example, take a look at the placement and costs of medium armor proficiency and martial weapon profiency in warchanter. Both are fifth tier enhancements. Now compare that to the similar benefits that wizards and sorcerers (wizards and sorcerers!) get from the Eldritch Knight tree. Also, note that "Skaldic Rage" gives a -4 AC penalty when active, while the "Rough and Ready" enhancement gives up to +6 AC. It's very odd how these two enhancements work against one another. Not to mention that a warchanter is going to be using light armor until lvl 12, so that -4 AC hurts a bit.

[LuKaSu]

I think a fun spellsinger capstone / Level 18 core skill would be the ability to heighten all the way to level 9th spells. It wouldn't require any more new spells and it would really help toward the idea of being a DC caster.

[ThomasHunter]

I just don't agree at all. I and a lot of others will just never play Swashbuckler with their choice of one-handed weaponry and think that Warchanter should somehow fill the void.

I concur. Please give us Warchanters a viable option to swing our big weapons. That is much fun! Obviously Displacement helps quite a bit. Maybe it's the whole "melee is having a tough time in the high level quests" thing that is making this build tough to play?

Again, I trust that the days of playing Bard Warchanters swinging greatswords isn't completely over.

[LuKaSu]

We're currently planning some improvements to the Bard Warchanter and Bard Spellsinger enhancement trees. We've got some ideas to make these more powerful and well defined, and to work better to support Bard as a whole

I just wanted to say, "Thank you," by the way.

[Nascoe]

I actually like your concept more then most of the posters. Warchanters are going to die out with swashbuckler coming in the game. If you can make a warchanter the ultimate support type bard that would make them viable. Healing should be a warchanter spell ability and make sure warchanters get really solid buffs that stack.

The main thing lacking for spellsingers is viable spells. They really need viable offensive spells. Make the spellsinger higher level slas extremely powerful. A really good cc sla like earthquake or mass hold caliber and a great nuking sla and improve the EDs like make a sonic a choice in draconic, etc..

Yeah, I think you are right about the warchanter and healing there. But I think it might have to be something like a song aura that is boosted by your perform instead of a spell, as the warchanter doesn't get that many SP nor ways to boost their spellpower. I like the idea of focussing on evocation for the warchanter that is mentioned above to boost how effective your spells are for CC too.

Spellsinger should get new spells that do damage.

[nibel]

Having read only the OP, I will start with the small thing I said at the early stages of the Swashbuckler feedback:

Make many songs an "add up" to the bard's primary songs. Only keep as "new" songs the ones at tier 5, or granted by core enhancements. Otherwise, make them add up to:

• Inspire Courage (Long cooldown, long singing time, all allies) should add the benefits of: Ironskin Chant, Spellsong Trance
• Fascinate (medium cooldown, long singing time, all enemies) should also add the benefits of: Enthrallment
• Inspire Greatness (given at Bard 9) should also add the benefit of: Inspire Recklessness, Song of Arcane Might (and it becomes a requirement for those songs)
• Inspire Heroics (given at Bard 15) should also add the benefit of: Sustaining Song, Spellsong Vigor (and it becomes a requirement for those song)

There are more stuff that need to be rebalanced, but I think the songs being add-ons are a huge benefit, so that we don't have to sing a dozen songs at the start of each quest, or mid-fight because that is the only time a fast group is bundled together. Allow us to sing less songs for the same benefits.

Now, with the broad classifications.

With the addition of Swashbuckler to be the de-facto melee bard tree (No exclusive song, no spellpower, no spell points), I like the concept of Warchanter becoming the buffing tree. The major problem with this is that, back when the cap was 20, adding +11 damage to everyone was a big deal. When your attacks are dealing 4-digit damage, it is a lot less relevant. On Heroic levels, their buffs are still welcome and balanced, but they need a serious buff on epic levels. And this can be attained including extra buffing power at the core 18 and 20 (Or as class feature at level 20, if you think bards need the buff all-around). Something like "Your Inspire Courage also adds a +5% morale bonus to melee and ranged and unarmed damage".

Spellsinger being the caster tree is very, VERY obvious. But you should remember two major facts about offensive casting bards:

• While comparing DCs with any major casting class, Bards are already 3 DC lower because their highest spell level is 6 instead of 9, minimizing the efficacy of Heighten Spell.
• Bards lack any kind of good damage spell. Their most powerful damage spell (Great Shout) is already damage-capped when they get access to it, and the cap is very low because of the added CC effect in the spell.

So, before anything, for spellsinger be competitive on spellcasting terrain, you should cover those two points. SLA and extra spells on core enhancements might cover point #2, but point #1 is very commonly ignored, because it is not "only" +3. Clerics, druids and sorcerers have access to at least another +1 on their trees, and wizards +2 (plus at least +1 from Lich form). And that is NOT counting the universal +2 casting stat in their tree capstones (because bards also get that). So, to cover this gap, Spellsinger should provide AT LEAST a +4 bonus to spell DC. Be it universal (unlikely) or school-focused (enchant, evocation or illusion).

Painting the broad spectrum, that is my best feedback I can give. When we move the discussion to the specifics, I'm sure we have a lot more to talk.

[cru121]

While comparing DCs with any major casting class, Bards are already 3 DC lower because their highest spell level is 6 instead of 9

How about an epic feat or twist that would allow all classes to heighten to 9th (or 10th) level.

[mezzorco]

No bard that wants to be mostly about killing things will choose warchanter over swashbuckler.

You're wrong. Many players would dual wield or use a two-hander with a warchanter, as an alternative to swashbuckler.
It's ok that warchanter is buff-focused, but it has to do good damage itself. I'm not saying here it should compete with swashbuckler damage, but a warchanter can't simply buff -> wait 5 minutes -> reapply buffs -> wait 5 minutes...

Warchanter needs his chunk of melee capability, an improvement over current tree has to be done in that regard.

[OverlordOfRats]

Add Resist Energy as a tier 2 SLA and Protection from Energy as a tier 4 SLA.

Those are good party buffs bards do not have.

[Rautis]

Warchanter

Current Warchanter tree is rather weak. I used to like playing them like before update 14. Epic Destinies have made the bonuses from Warchanter seem weak and also Bards in general can't add party survivability as much as they could because Displacement is self only now. Inspire courage basic effects could be buffed. Warchanter gathering cold effects are not worth any action points except Howl of the North. Frozen Fury is a nice ability with good cooldown but ridiculously low DC.

Suggestions:

• Merge most long lasting buff songs into Inspire Courage(Ironskin Chant, Inspire Recklesness, Inspire Heroism atm).
  • Either have them as free extra or add toggles so those effects are added on inspire courage performance and extra song uses are spent depending on effects wanted.
  • This allows bards to focus on more interesting things and also wont bore partymembers.
  
  
• Add short lasting party boosts(that require song uses) that make partymembers very happy about having a Warchanter with them.
  • Rallying cry is a nice example, but not quite enough.
  • Implacable Foe from Warpriest is nice. Bards could have something similar.
  • Cooldown(more than 2 minutes for any ability is too long) and song usage can be used as balancing factor.
  • There could be several to choose from to support different playstyles. (tanky, dps, tactics etc)
  
  
• Displacement like effect on others
  
  
• Action Boost/Turn Undead/Smite Evil etc use regeneration with song uses like Seikoijin suggested.
  
  
• Attacks that help dealing with the target mob.
  • Attacks could add guards on monster. For example effect that adds to critical profile of players that attack the monster
  • Also defensive benefits could be granted by the guards. Incorporeality/temporary hp/heal amp for example
  • More typical save/stat/AC/fortification/damage debuffs are welcome too
  • Duration and resource use can be balancing factors while each attack could be rather strong. If there are enough great choices for bard song use bard play becomes more tactical instead of just autorefreshing all songs you get when they expire.

Healing

Healing is currently very strongly represented in the Spellsinger tree. Spellsinger gains 1 spell power for each point spent into that tree and 2% healing crits per core ability. And then there is the capstone that adds Heal as level 6 spell. And they can choose Sustaining Song as tier 4 for a heal over time effect.

Sure there are some weakish(not useless but I don't really see anyone saying they invested in Warcanter for those things) abilities in Warchanter that grant some healing spell power just to compensate for lack of any kind of spell power per points spent in Warchanter tree.(I think it's ok for warchanter not to grant any spell power.)

So why switch healing from spellsinger to warchanter considering that is some extra work and it would probably also affect several current bard builds negatively? Healing is usually tied to spell points and spellsingers gain some extra spell points too. Not to mention their spell point regenerating tier 5 song.

Spellsinger

DPS spellcasting on bard sounds strange because they've not had much spell dps before. I just checked spells that do any damage on bard spell list. Those are Sonic Blast(5d2+10), Sound burst(1d8), Shout(5d3+15) and Greater Shout(5d6+30). Not even one for every spell level bards get. Arcanes get more damage spell choices on about every spell level than bards have damage spells in total.

It could work with some serious time spent on making new Bard style damage spells added to both their spell list and as spell like abilities. If you decide to add this kind of playstyle to spellsinger make sure it is unique when compared to other casters and also not a trap. I've never had an urge to play a spell DPS bard. Particularly with the new Swasbuckler tree it is easy to combine CC(spells)+melee and get results even with charisma invest.

Bard CC spell selection is great. Their DCs are 3 points lower because of 6 spell levels vs. 9 spell levels. Enhancement that allows bards to heighten to level 9 instead of just 6 would seem like an easy answer to this situation. If you add conventional DC boosts please allow choosing any school we want. Bards have Necromancy, Conjuration, Enhancement, Illusion and Evocation spells with DCs and some Bards might want to focus on something else than Enchantment.

Spell like abilities I have liked in other trees and those are welcome.

[mezzorco]

Add Resist Energy as a tier 2 SLA and Protection from Energy as a tier 4 SLA.

Those are good party buffs bards do not have.

Worthless. Protection from Energy doesn't take into account energy resistance and wears off pretty fast. Resist Energy simply doesn't stack with ship buff.

[Purkilius]

Just a few ideas

Spellsinger:

Wall of Sound as a song or a spell, has a chance to stun.

Sonic Blast, Shout and Greater Shout as SLA´s.

Warchanter

An enhancement that buffs IC with improved movement speed that stacks with haste and maybe another with attack speed.

Capstone Tenser´s song maybe...

[mna]

Worthless. Protection from Energy doesn't take into account energy resistance and wears off pretty fast. Resist Energy simply doesn't stack with ship buff.

Resist Energy is still one of the things I've missed on my bard characters. One of them is in a smaller guild that prefers +stat over resistances in the limited buff slots, and another still runs out of ship buffs in longer quests or when dying.

Of course for maximum synergies, have the bard version stack (even partially) with the other kinds of Resist Energy. Say, at max 20 non-stacking, and stacking +10...15 and +10...15% absorbtion on top? (Hm. Bard level, and bard level -5 or half bard level?)

Would make sense to me to make them songs instead of SLAs, and party instead of single-target, too.



Song regen becomes more important with more songs available, naturally. Is the Blasting Chime still bugged? If song regen remains a high-tier ability in just one tree, those focusing on the other two will want something to replace it, and Blasting Chime is the only Anthem item available (with daily tokens) to those who don't have one of the two packs that have one Anthem item each. (Both of which are in the Landlubber Bundle along with 3BC... we got advance notice on the 3BC price change, but what of the bundle?)



For less song usage, make them extra features to go on Inspire Courage, Song of Heroism, or some such.
... oh yes, the Greater Heroism song is one of the better features currently, please keep it. (Or improve on it... such as, otherwise as now, but half-stacking with the spell, and/or maybe the elemental resistance thing, ...?)

[Purkilius]

Bards are suffering from the same problems that AC and weaponry did previously. They were balanced for when max level was 10 and a +5 sword to hit the knights in tempest spine made you the baddest mofo on the block.
Back then +2or +3 to hit and damage were super awesome bonuses spread that across an entire party or even better raid group and you were talking some serious help. Add to that some haste and a touch of healing and you had a great class. Thing is it doesn't scale well , not even like it has been tried to be scaled.

When level cap was 20 Bards were also very much in demand a well played bard was the servers rockstar

These are good changes I would like to see something similar done for the paladin.

[DrakeFury]

i don't understand why people expect killing ability from Bards? Ok, some SLAs and sonic wall would be nice to easy up heroic leveling, but Bard as a class was never meant to be killer like Sorc or Wiz, and giving them ability in same league as Wizards (enchantment) would be counter productive.

Also +5 to damage from song is as powerfull as Power attack, not to mention that Weapon specialization is just +2 and only fighter can take it (kensai needs to take it).

Main problem i think people have with bards is their viability in epic content. While you could buff enchantment to be viable, songs should be more desireble in my opinion, also if you have more mobs that displel spells Bards and their buffs would be more searched for.

Fighter or Monk should always be more adept at killing than Bard, Cleric or FVS should always be more capable at healing and damage dealing, Wizards should be more powerfull at crowd control with spells.
I love Bards and they should be versatile, but making them better than specialists in any area would be just wrong.

Boost to scroll, wand and UMD use would be nice, and please remove Wand Heightening in it's current form as you did with all other classes