Swashbuckler Update & Single Weapon Fighting Feats

[Vargouille]

Hi! We're presenting some updates for Swashbuckler, and our current ideas for Single-Weapon Fighting Feats.

We've tried to balance these feats against THF and TWF. We feel these will scale well into higher levels, as these bonuses from Single Weapon Fighting are multiplied by higher +(W) weapons. Our current plan allows these feats to work alongside Two-Handed Fighting if you are using a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe. Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.

Internally, we're discussing longer-range possibilities to address some issues with shield builds and thrown builds, which aren't covered by Single Weapon Fighting (except for Swashbuckler's exception where they can use bucklers with SWF).

(EDIT: Some updated ideas here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...24#post5324424)

Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d10 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (Example: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 2 ranks of Balance


Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +4 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d12 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 4 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +6


Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d14 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 7 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +11





Changes in the Tree

Some of the more prominent changes to the tree include allowing Single-Weapon Fighting with a Buckler, putting more into the first core ability, adding in CHA / DEX / INT to-damage enhancements (while Single Weapon Fighting), and adding max-dex bonus to armor and reflex saving throws to both core abilities and Tier 5. Some abilities have also been renamed or had tentative numbers put in for various costs or cooldowns. All names and numbers still subject to further feedback, revision, and balancing.


Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Confidence: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 Reflex Save, and +1 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor per Swashbuckler Core Ability you have.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
    Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Kukri, Rapier: +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Handaxe: +2 Critical Threat Range
    Light Pick: +1 Critical Threat Range
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you have an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Tier One

1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
2. Blow By Blow (multiselector)
   
   1. Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals (+1/+2/+3)d6 extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by (100/200/300). This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
   
   
3. Insults (multiselector)
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
   
   
4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, Haggle, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make two attacks with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs 10 Spell Points to activate.
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
3. Fast Movement: You gain +1% Bardic Music bonus to movement for every Bard level you possess.
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
5. Action Boost Multiselector
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
   2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
2. Swashbuckling Style (Multiselector)
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: Passive: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Attack Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
   2. Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats.
   3. Arcane Marauder: Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training (or the Spellsinger enhancement equivalent).
   4. Cannoneer: (Requires Runearm Proficiency feat): Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities).
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits. This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
4. Different Tack (Multiselector, Requires Single Weapon Fighting feat)
   
   1. Swift Strikes: You get Dexterity to Damage with weapon attacks while Single Weapon Fighting.
   2. Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
   3. Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
   
   
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
2. Swashbuckling Style II (Multiselector)
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, knock down affected enemy for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
   3. Loud & Clear:Passive: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +20 Sonic Spell Power.
   4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage. This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Attack Damage while the Precision feat is active.
2. Second Skin: While Swashbuckling, +3/6/12 to your Reflex Saves and +2/4/6 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor.
3. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully crit.

[DemonStorm333]

still no ability to activate swashbuckling with a bsword with outh the added effects that the finessable weapon would get

[krimsonrane]

if it's not a dex based build and you don't allow dex to damage you're doing it wrong.

[Lifespawn]

if it's not a dex based build and you don't allow dex to damage you're doing it wrong.

? the only thing u can't use is con or wis

[ddorimble]

I think it's too bad that you made the Swashbuckling Style tiers a Multiselector. Why not grant them all and allow people to freely switch between the styles depending on the situation? That's the whole Bard idiom. Jack of all trades, master of none.

I would imagine the 'style change' would happen automatically as you swapped your gear.

[Cardtrick]

The choice of Dex/Int/Cha to damage with a tier 3 enhancement is very good, and will certainly be an appealing feature of this tree for pure or near-pure bards. That's a great change.

Bonuses to reflex save are very nice, too, although I wish it had been something stronger without requiring the investment of 3 ranks of a tier 5 enhancement. At least the first 2 ranks of that are probably going to be required to have sufficient reflex save to make the evasion useful in high level epics, with the third probably required for epic elite. You didn't list the AP costs, but if the other 2 tier 5 abilities each cost 2 APs, that prevents taking them and hurts this tree's damage output even more.

Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.

I guarantee this is going to be confusing. People are already confused enough by the +W stuff. Why couldn't this have just been a straight up addition to base damage or to the enhancement level of weapons (like what warpriest gets for favored weapons)?






On a more general note, the Single Weapon Fighting feats are incredibly underwhelming to me.

Have you done the math to look at how a character's damage output with these feats compares to a TWF or THF character? I haven't done it yet, although I will try to do so, so these responses are more instinctive than calculated. That said . . .

I can't see any character ever using these feats or this fighting style except bards with the new tree. The problem is that bards don't get any bonus feats and already struggle to fit what they need, since they need both casting/healing feats and melee feats.

My gut feeling is that the damage output of a character with a reasonable strength bonus using a two-handed weapon and power attack (one feat) is going to be considerably better than that of a character using a single weapon and all 3 of these feats (three feats).

If the tier 3 Single Weapon fighting feat was a single feat that didn't require the previous two feats, it would conceivably be worth taking on some characters, and at least a much less painful required feat for pure bards.

But these bonuses can't possibly compare to the huge DPS increase of almost doubling your attack rate with the TWF feats and enhancements; or getting higher strength bonus, double benefit from power attack, and the increased single target and very significant AOE damage from glancing blows with the THF style (many of which don't even require spending feats).

EDIT:
I edited my comment on the reflex saves. I hadn't seen the tier 5 ability, I was just looking at the core.

[Grosbeak07]

if it's not a dex based build and you don't allow dex to damage you're doing it wrong.

Different Tack (Multiselector, Requires Single Weapon Fighting feat)

1. Swift Strikes: You get Dexterity to Damage with weapon attacks while Single Weapon Fighting.
2. Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
3. Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.

[alancarp]

The one big thing I don't see - and I tend to like what I do see (edit: I like the direction it's going compared to the 1st draft) - is help for spell points.


> Lots of abilities that require spell points to activate
> No swashbuckler enhancements to spell points.
> Compelling Tier 5 enhancements
>>> I cannot have Spell Song Vigor if I take Swashbuckler Tier 5 enhancements.

That's a bad combination.

Could we, possibly, pretty please, perchance.... move SSVigor to Tier 4??? You can get rid of Arcane Aid to make room for it.

[Krelar]

Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.


Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d10 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (Example: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 2 ranks of Balance

Instead of adding +2 sides is it possible to add a flat bonus to the die before +W is applied?
So W[1d8] becomes W[1d8+1] which would be equivalent to +2 sides as far as average damage but would also work on weapons with more than 1 die.

[ComicRelief]

*snip*Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.
*snip*

Personally, I'd rather see a straight "+2" (stacking [with all other 'bonuses']) damage (to the total base damage), rather than "+2 sides". This would basically do the same thing, EXCEPT it would increase the minimum damage; e.g. a 1d8 weapon would now do 3-10 points damage (1d8 + 2) instead of 1-10 points (1d10). The maximum damage remains the same, just the minimum damage is increased. This should also bypass the 'technical' issues with weapons that have multiple base dice: 2d4 would do 4-10 damage (2d4 + 2), thus allowing the 'rare', special weapons to be used (which, IMO, they should be). Since you should not be mutiplying the added damage by the number of base dice (i.e. you would not be doing 2*[1d4 + 2] damage), I would think this might alleviate the balance concerns with using the multi-base dice weapons, too.

I would also think that it might also be easier to code, but what do I know?

[Wizza]

We've tried to balance these feats against THF and TWF. We feel these will scale well into higher levels, as these bonuses from Single Weapon Fighting are multiplied by higher +(W) weapons. Our current plan allows these feats to work alongside Two-Handed Fighting if you are using a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe. Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.

Internally, we're discussing longer-range possibilities to address some issues with shield builds and thrown builds, which aren't covered by Single Weapon Fighting (except for Swashbuckler's exception where they can use bucklers with SWF).


Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d10 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (Example: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 2 ranks of Balance


Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +4 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d12 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 4 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +6


Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d14 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 7 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +11

There are no words to describe how GARBAGE these SWF feats are.

Let's start with the feat requirement: WHAT? 7 Ranks of Balance on a bard? Why in the world..
It does not work with weapons with multiple dice?

And..+6 sides? THAT'S IT? No doublestrike even? We are going to lose a second weapon and 3 feats for this? You haven't tried hard enough. You haven't tried at all.


I don't even want to comment on the bard tree (cores are better) but NO CHARISMA TO HIT? Just to damage? And the Sonic Spellpower went from 10 to 20. Big deal.

Not sure who is going to play this with these garbage SWF feats.

[Cardtrick]

There are no words to describe how GARBAGE these SWF feats are

Yes. My first response was too measured. I'm trying to look at some numbers now, and these are just truly terrible.

Which is a shame, because I'm actually really starting to like the enhancement tree. It's just badly let down by these feats.

[Grailhawk]

Math seams to indicate these are at least as good as THF feat.

GSWF with a 4.5[w] adds on average 13.5 damage per hit (4.5*3=13.5)
GTHF assuming an average damage of 100.25 (4.5[1d8] + 80) is 12.5 (1.5*.75*100.25 - 100.25 = 12.5)

You should consider adding a bonus to finesse able weapons such as [3/6/10]% bonus to alacrity or armor piercing to make up for the fact that Bastardsword and DAxe users can use both the THF and the SWF feat.

[Cardtrick]

Math seams to indicate these are at least as good as THF feat.

GSWF with a 4.5[w] adds on average 13.5 damage per hit (4.5*3=13.5)
GTHF assuming an average damage of 100.25 (4.5[1d8] + 80) is 12.5 (1.5*.75*100.25 - 100.25 = 12.5)

Glancing blows apply to an area of effect.

Two handed weapons get 1.5 times strength modifier added to the base damage, not 1 times like a single weapon does.

Two handed weapons get 10 points damage added by power attack, not 5.

EDIT: Also, is it really reasonable to assume 4.5[W]? That's basically requiring thunder forged weapons. We absolutely want to think about endgame weapons and content when considering balance, but it shouldn't be the only concern. The single weapon style is going to be much farther behind THF and TWF until you get to thunder forged gear, since it's the only style that adds damage before the W multiplier rather than after it.

[Zoda]

Single weapon fighting feats are complete trash. Every other fighting style feats gives you a a percentage bonus, this one is 4.5 damage per feat at it's very best with thunder forged weapons, it's not getting even close to thf/twf.

Make me want to consider dropping my 2nd weapon/ 2 hander or don't bother.

[Madja]

Do the Single Weapon Fighting feats work on a druid in animal form? I'm just wondering if the reason that THF and TWF do not (besides balance) is that it counts as having a single weapon?

[Wizza]

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Confidence: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 Reflex Save, and +1 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor per Swashbuckler Core Ability you have.

Tier Five

1. Second Skin: While Swashbuckling, +3/6/12 to your Reflex Saves and +2/4/6 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor.

I'm a bit dazzled at the moment but answer me this: Max Dex Bonus does not actually raise your Max Dodge cap right? It will still be 30 (25 base + lv18 core) right?

[Cetus]

Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.


Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +4 sides.


Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 sides.

The only way these are going to be useful is if we have a large enough W bonus. Give swashbuckler higher +W modifiers in order to make these feats worthwhile. A thunderforged weapon would capitalize decently on this with momentum swing, deadly weapons, weapon attachment, and dreadnaught .5 W. Without these, these feats are weak.

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make two attacks with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs 10 Spell Points to activate.

1. This attack is horrible. We ALWAYS crit. Penalizing the crit by a multiplier is horrible. I would never take this.
   
   

[*]Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.

1 bludgeon damage? 1 second stun? Worthless, again...no change since last feedback.

Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting

this needs to include to-hit

[Lonnbeimnech]

Single weapon fighting...

How about instead of those you add the robilar's gambit feat

[Cetus]

Single weapon fighting feats are complete trash. Every other fighting style feats gives you a a percentage bonus, this one is 4.5 damage per feat at it's very best with thunder forged weapons, it's not getting even close to thf/twf.

Make me want to consider dropping my 2nd weapon/ 2 hander or don't bother.

Well, they're not COMPLETE trash.

Think about this - A thunderforged bastard sword has 1d10. Fully upgraded + momentum swing + deadly weapons = 10.5d10 swing = 57.5 average damage.

With three SWF feats = 10.5d16 = 84 average damage.

So having those three feats gives you almost 30 extra damage a swing, not bad. BUT you need a bunch of W bonuses to improve the use of these feats.

The real downside to this isn't about the feats, its about the fact that two weapons or THF will still do way better than this. And who can spend 6 feats on THF and SWF for bastard swords to improve glances? Its just not practical imo