Swashbuckler Update & Single Weapon Fighting Feats

[LucasMacKinnon]

I like the cha to damage, but i really wish you would put cha to attack as well pure bards that are more SS will have a lot higher cha then str or dex. giving them something that will allow them to utilize their high cha for melee will help make them a little more viable then just as buff, song, and healing the only weapon in the game really for a SS bard for epic just so we can do a little damage is the Eyld Edge. I would like to see something that allows us to have cha to attack and damage for all weapons we are prof in

[Andoris]

We've tried to balance these feats against THF and TWF. We feel these will scale well into higher levels, as these bonuses from Single Weapon Fighting are multiplied by higher +(W) weapons. Our current plan allows these feats to work alongside Two-Handed Fighting if you are using a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe. Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.

The SWF feats are still quite weak.. +2 sides on a die is quite a bit weaker than +10% glancing damage or 20% off hand attack chance. Single Weapon Fighting is all about finesse and speed.. maybe change these to +0.5W/+1W/+1.5W and 2%/4%/6% Doublestrike/Doubleshot

Also, as swashbuckler adds the possibility of throwing builds that don't use shuriken's.. how about 2 new feats.. one is Throwing Expertise (works just like Shuriken Expertise, but for other throwers) and Quick Throw (works just like 10k stars, but for other throwers and uses Dex or Str mod).

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Confidence: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 Reflex Save, and +1 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor per Swashbuckler Core Ability you have.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
    Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Kukri, Rapier: +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Handaxe: +2 Critical Threat Range
    Light Pick: +1 Critical Threat Range
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you have an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Doublestrike / Doubeshot should be higher (I like 3% per core versus the 1% now).. a bard swashbuckler fighting in SWF style can hit 46/76% ( +4% cores +7% Dashing Scoundrel +5% PTWF +9% Martial PL + 6% Inspire Recklessness + 3% artifact (black armor) +12% vengeful fury / + 30% action boost).

That is not enough to compete on any level with TWF (100% off hand attacks + up to 42%/72% double strike) or the staff builds that get about the same or higher Doublestrike.

There is still not enough in SWF to make it anything more than a flavor option when compared to other combat styles.

1. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.
2. Different Tack (Multiselector, Requires Single Weapon Fighting feat)
   
   1. Swift Strikes: You get Dexterity to Damage with weapon attacks while Single Weapon Fighting.
   2. Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
   3. Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting

Resonant Arms, is it modified by Sonic Spell power? If so this will help in bridging some of the dps divide between Swashbuckling and other fighting styles

Different Track, should give both Attack and Damage.

1. Swashbuckling Style II (Multiselector)
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.

Stun really needs to be more than 1 sec, 2-3 seconds seems more reasonable

1. Second Skin: While Swashbuckling, +3/6/12 to your Reflex Saves and +2/4/6 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor.

Nice improvement, as it lets a dex based 20 bard actually have the evasion ability be useful (looks like Ref save ~mid 70s at cap)

[knightgf]

Every style of fighting should have purpose. I hardly see any in single weapon fighting. Let me break down the purpose of the styles of melee combat in DDO:

• What is the purpose of Two-Weapon Fighting? To deal lots of damage against a single target by multiple attacks.
• What is the purpose of Two-Handed Fighting? To deal blows that each deal heavy damage, and to do a bit of 'crowd control' by being able to attack multiple targets with glancing blows.
• What is the purpose of unarmed combat? When you are disarmed, or primarily if you are a monk who specializes in unarmed combat.
• What is the purpose of sword and board fighting? To provide valuable protection at the cost of some DPS. Currently, the DPS cost is a bit too high for what's offered.

What do I see in single-weapon fighting? Damage that is way lesser than two-weapon and two-handed, yet somewhat above unarmed combat for non-monks. And maybe a tiny bit of defense, though probably not close to sword and board fighting. What should the purpose of Single-Weapon fighting be? To deliver precise, crippling blows that hamper the enemy's efforts, as well as to provide a level of self-defense. It shouldn't be the top of the line DPS, but it should offer worthy benefits that are worth taking. For example, to be an effective single-weapon fighter compared to other classes, Swashbucklers should be able to apply debuffs as a % chance on each hit and critical hit. Some examples of debuffs worth applying on every hit as a % chance include:

• Hamstring
• Improved Feint
• Destruction
• 1 damage of a random stat
• Bleed damage

And some examples of debuffs worth applying on a critical hit as a % chance include:

• Stunned (Or paralyzed)
• 1d6 damage of a random stat (bypasses epic ward)
• Improved Destruction
• Crippled
• Extra stacks of bleed

Keep in mind these are examples, and that there are definitely better debuffs that could also be added to the list. In short: Think of a swashbuckler's offensive attacks as debuffs that trigger as randomly as colors of the queen, though with different % chances than colors of the queen.

In addition to these debuffs, swashbucklers should also be able to bypass quite a bit of fortification, and share that benefit with allies. A swashbuckler's ability to bypass fortification may not be much, but when you combine it with other fortification lowering stats, such as improved sunder, it adds up and makes the swashbuckler's ability to bypass fortification viable. As for defense, swashbuckler needs a lot more dodge, and maybe toggle-able abilities that really improve dodge at the cost of a lower chance to proc debuffs. In addition, to make the swashbuckler's ability to defend itself unique, they should have some sort of ability to treat the PRR of light armor as if it were heavy armor. These two things might make the defense abilities of a swashbuckler worthwhile.

That's all I got on my mind. I sure hope it helps.

[viktorserak]

Math seams to indicate these are at least as good as THF feat.

GSWF with a 4.5[w] adds on average 13.5 damage per hit (4.5*3=13.5)
GTHF assuming an average damage of 100.25 (4.5[1d8] + 80) is 12.5 (1.5*.75*100.25 - 100.25 = 12.5)

You should consider adding a bonus to finesse able weapons such as [3/6/10]% bonus to alacrity or armor piercing to make up for the fact that Bastardsword and DAxe users can use both the THF and the SWF feat.

Ehm, yes... but, you are forgeting three facts:

1. THF is superior because of how it calculates strenght bonus.

2. 4.5(w) is something, that only one kind of finessable weapons can offer. and those are all lvl 28 - I.E. lvl CAP. which means that untill then (and assuming that you are ETRing, which is something most ppl do) and for the most part of the game, you are running with much LOWER dice. Which makes SWF inferior.

3. Most of all, THF has glancing blows. Which meas that in 95% of the game content, I will be done killing things with THF long before I am done killing things with SWF.

The thing is: If I want single target DPS over AoE DPS (THF), I go TWF - it has almost double the attacks and that is simply something, that SWF cannot compete with. Yet, it costs the SAME amount of feats.

I thus challenge anyone, who thinks that SWF is comparable to THF or TWF to show us a build that utilizes it and actually profits from it over over TWF or THF. And I would also like that build not to be bard. Because if devs are just making a feat line for bards (which is prolly close to inferior anyway, even for them) then... well.... there are some QoL fixes they could be doing instead.

[Cardtrick]

Well, they're not COMPLETE trash.

Think about this - A thunderforged bastard sword has 1d10. Fully upgraded + momentum swing + deadly weapons = 10.5d10 swing = 57.5 average damage.

With three SWF feats = 10.5d16 = 84 average damage.

So having those three feats gives you almost 30 extra damage a swing, not bad. BUT you need a bunch of W bonuses to improve the use of these feats.

You're right. My reaction to this has been bouncing all over the place as I look more into it and make some calculations.

I think I'm settling on "decent enough to be viable for the swashbuckler enhancement tree but unappealing to any other builds, but still a really weird and confusing direction to take that doesn't really become competitive with the alternatives until epic levels and endgame equipment."

A straight stacking doublestrike bonus would have been so much easier to balance. I hate how equipment-dependent this version is, although I guess I can admit that it has more flavor and will feel distinct from the existing options.

I think it's potentially problematic that these feats won't scale with strength bonus (or CHA or DEX or whatever) the way the benefits from THF or TWF will. Nor will they scale with Deadly items, nor Inspire Courage's damage boost, nor anything like that. They'll only scale with [W] bonuses and attack rate (including doublestrike).

The real killer to me is still that it requires 3 feats, which is a huge cost on a feat-starved pure bard. It's pretty much going to prevent taking Overwhelming Critical, at least if you want Quicken and Empower Heal -- never mind Heighten or Extend or Spell Focus. Since these single weapon feats aren't appealing enough for any non-Swashbucklers to use, that's well worth considering. But if you multiclass to pick up the feats, Swashbuckler loses a lot of its appeal.

[jakeelala]

Bolded And Dark Blue

Hi! We're presenting some updates for Swashbuckler, and our current ideas for Single-Weapon Fighting Feats.

We've tried to balance these feats against THF and TWF. We feel these will scale well into higher levels, as these bonuses from Single Weapon Fighting are multiplied by higher +(W) weapons. Our current plan allows these feats to work alongside Two-Handed Fighting if you are using a Bastard Sword or Dwarven Axe. Due to both balance and technical concerns, these feats don't function with weapons that have multiple dice (as part of the base die, such as the 2d4 dagger "Agony, the Knife in the Dark"). Regular one-handed weapons and nearly all named one-handed items only have one die, but there are a few named items that won't function with Single Weapon Fighting.

Seriously, why? Can you explain to me in one sentence convincingly why you would make one more way of calculating weapon base damage that is different from how you can do it today? Including why this is so good that it's acceptable to not have it work with current end-game, raid loot like Agony. To me, this seems unconscionable.

Internally, we're discussing longer-range possibilities to address some issues with shield builds and thrown builds, which aren't covered by Single Weapon Fighting (except for Swashbuckler's exception where they can use bucklers with SWF).

So, just to clarify because I'm unsure, you're saying that these feats do nothing for Thrown builds? As in, Thrown weapons won't get the dice increase? Or they will, but you're acknowledging that this does not fill the whole for Throwing some were hoping for left by the absence of an equivalent to either Shuriken Expertise or Monk Ninja Spy Core 2 for chances of extra missiles when throwing? Without some sort of boost form these feats, the will still be no logical alternative to Shuriken for a thrower build with 3-6 Monk levels at a minimum. Am I missing something or do you disagree?

Single Weapon Fighting
While Single-Weapon Fighting, your weapon die gains an additional +2 sides.

Single Weapon Fighting: Requires fighting with a single one-handed melee weapon, and wielding only an orb, runearm, or nothing in your offhand.


Ok so this is where you make it more clear that Throwers are totally unaffected by this line of feats. Which I have to just weigh in on and say this is really really disappointing. Throwing is just as one handed as wave around a rapier.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d10 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (Example: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 2 ranks of Balance


Improved Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Single Weapon Fighting increases to +4 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d12 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 4 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +6


Greater Single Weapon Fighting
Your bonus for Improved Single Weapon Fighting increases to +6 sides.

For instance, a 1d8 weapon instead deals 1d14 damage. This only functions for weapons with a single base weapon die (aka: This wouldn't function for weapons that do 2d4 base damage.)

Feat Requirement: 7 ranks of Balance, Base Attack Bonus +11



Changes in the Tree

Some of the more prominent changes to the tree include allowing Single-Weapon Fighting with a Buckler, putting more into the first core ability, adding in CHA / DEX / INT to-damage enhancements (while Single Weapon Fighting), and adding max-dex bonus to armor and reflex saving throws to both core abilities and Tier 5. Some abilities have also been renamed or had tentative numbers put in for various costs or cooldowns. All names and numbers still subject to further feedback, revision, and balancing.

CHA DEX INT to damage is EXCELLENT. It opens up way more Multiclass possibilities. GOOD change.

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Confidence: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 Reflex Save, and +1 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor per Swashbuckler Core Ability you have.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
    Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Critical Threat Range, +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Kukri, Rapier: +1 Critical Damage Multiplier
    Handaxe: +2 Critical Threat Range
    Light Pick: +1 Critical Threat Range
  
  
  Million Dollar Question: Have you actually fixed Critical Threat/Muliplier with this update? If so, does that include Halfing Enhancements, and Kensei? I understand competence bonuses don't stack, but what about Improved Critical feats and Epic Destiny abilities that aren't labeled Competence? Also, please consider adding Scimitars and Quarterstaves to this list they can be finessed and used with Dex based on Class Enhancements.
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you have an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Attack Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Attack Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Tier One

1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
2. Blow By Blow (multiselector)
   
   1. Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals (+1/+2/+3)d6 extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by (100/200/300). Sonic damage scales with Spell Power.
   
   
3. Insults (multiselector)
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs 16/12/8 Spell Points, 20/15/10 Second Cooldown)
   
   
   Super underwhelming. Make this more like Shadows Upon you, where you cast and it's say -2, after each successive hit or spell cast against it it can go up with a max stack of something like 5 or 6. Much more useful and not OP. Remember, you're buffing bards here, the worst class in the game when it comes to anything but buffing other people, which they aren't even that good at anymore.
   
4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, Haggle, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

OMG I love this. But I love tumbling just for the animation. Having a number of Max Tumble toons I have to say it isn't very fast since it doesn't take things like Monk and Barbarian move speed into account. You should consider making Tumbling faster at higher skill levels if possible. It's been the same since lvl 10 cap, but you're making it useful. So make it more useful. Remember, offensively, Tumbling reduces your DPS to ZERO. It's the equivilent of shield blocking. Right not it's totally not worth it to almost ever tumble in combat. Consider buffing this or making it scale higher at each tier for the tumble portion. Sheild blocking is way better then tumbling currently, and they both effectively make you to 0 damage during their duration. That needs to give a BIG defensive trade off.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make two attacks with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs 10 Spell Points to activate.
   
   Is this an instantaneous, non attack chain breaking active? If so, that's cool. Whats the cooldown? if the cool down is low, 10SP is a lot on a low SP class when you a wizard get's Chain Missles at lvl 6 for like 3 SP which is their primary tool at end game for killing EE mobs. Fair and Balanced?
   
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
3. Fast Movement: You gain +1% Bardic Music bonus to movement for every Bard level you possess.
   
   Wow. Awesome.
   
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power.
   
   Make AC matter more and this will be awesome. Does this include Deflected Arrows/Projectiles and Dodge misses?
   
5. Action Boost Multiselector
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
   2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
   
   Have you ever seen the speed and quantity at which damage comes in on EE in quests like What Goes Up? Eliminate the cooldown completely. It's already a percentage based change making it unreliable and inconsistent at best. 12 second cool-down makes this totally underwhelming.
   
2. Swashbuckling Style (Multiselector)
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: Passive: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Attack Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
   2. Skirmisher: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge, and you may use a Buckler and still benefit from the Single Weapon Fighting line of feats.
   3. Arcane Marauder: Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training (or the Spellsinger enhancement equivalent).
   4. Cannoneer: (Requires Runearm Proficiency feat): Passive: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities).
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.
   
   I'd like to recommend that in the absence of any other improvements to Throwing weapons that aren't shuriken, that this scale HEAVILY with crit Multiplier. Like 4 or 5x if you use a throwing Axe or Hammer. I mean, Shuriken are like 120% than any other throwing weapon at 60 Dex if have 3 monk levels. There's no comparison with other Throwing weapons. You have excluded Throwers from the 1 handed weapon fighting Feats. As of today, you have excluded ALL throwing weapons that are not Shuriken from play for anything but favor or ranged backup on a melee character. This is one place you could improve the power of other throwers, though they will still pale in comparison to shuriken as of now.
   
4. Different Tack (Multiselector, Requires Single Weapon Fighting feat)
   
   1. Swift Strikes: You get Dexterity to Damage with weapon attacks while Single Weapon Fighting.
   2. Two Steps Ahead: You get Intelligence to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
   3. Smooth Flourishes: You get Charisma to Damage with weapon attacks Single Weapon Fighting.
      
      Excellent
      
   
   
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
2. Swashbuckling Style II (Multiselector)
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
      
      Cooldown will prevent peopel from using this with any regularity. Length of stun means this is only for use against casters. Will it work on Red and Purple names? If not, it's really really really meh for Tier 4.
      
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, knock down affected enemy for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
      
      One second? What is with these new abilities that are effective for as long as they take to do? This isn't useful. Also, bucklers have terrible damage, you could double or even triple the buckler strike and this would still be terrible at end game.
      
   3. Loud & Clear:Passive: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +20 Sonic Spell Power.
      
      How about +20 Sonic, +20 Postive, and +5% stacking Crit for both? Is that really going to make a bard OP? It's Tier 4 so it's a deep splash for a Shiradi caster anyway, so still good there.
      
   4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Passive: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
      
      Scale this with character levels. Every 5 CL up the W. 1-5:d6. 5-10:d8 10-15:d10 16-20:d12 20-25:d14 26-30:d16. There's a use for your new and confusing damage dice system outlined for the 1 Handed Fighting Feats above. I still don't agree with it though.
      
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
   
   If you really want deep bard levels (12-20 Bard levels) to be compelling, make this +1 at lvl 1 Bard, +2 at Bard 5, +3 at Bard 10, +5 at Bard 15, and +6 at Bard 20.
   
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Attack Damage while the Precision feat is active.
2. Second Skin: While Swashbuckling, +3/6/12 to your Reflex Saves and +2/4/6 to the Max Dex Bonus of your Armor. Add Max Dodge Cap to these Tiers as well. These guys are supposed to be unhittable. And this is Tier 5, it better be awesome.
3. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully crit.

[Seikojin]

I think the Tact part is misprinted right now. It would make no sense whatsoever to make it stat to damage, but require other stats for to hit considering all the work in other trees to make other stats to hit and damage.

I think the feats need to be changed to straight +x weapon die since that is existing, prevalent, and easier to manage. I also agree that making three feats is a bit excessive considering all you are doing is boosting the damage of the weapon by 1 die total in most cases (meaning most weapons do D6 damages).

Given how quickly current feats offer huge diminishing returns (IE dodge's +3 bonus is quickly irrelevant as you get past level 1), then I think having one single weapon fighting feat with a flat +1[W] would be fine. At level 1 it is strong, and provides viability until you hit 10 or so, then it is just another notch in the belt as you build up (like any other feat).

I like the boosts to spellpower for the sonic damage in this tree. I would like to see more, but considering how much you can pump it already, the small amount here is good. I also like that most of the sonic abilities scale with spellpower. Definitely pushes the usability of this tree up there. I definitely will give it a go (if fred and lockania gets fixed).

[Cardtrick]

The SWF feats are still quite weak.. +2 sides on a die is quite a bit weaker than +10% glancing damage or 20% off hand attack chance. Single Weapon Fighting is all about finesse and speed.. maybe change these to +0.5W/+1W/+1.5W and 2%/4%/6% Doublestrike/Doubleshot

This would actually be much weaker than what they have now, at least with endgame or near-endgame equipment.

[Impaqt]

*** does "+2 sides" even mean?

Having this not apply to special weapons with multiple base die damage is pretty lame.
How bout you Fix/Change the weapons?

Let me guess... Theres not enough time to do it right? Thats kinda what I though....

I guess it doesnt really matter in the end, I'll never play this PrE anyway. Just kinda bugs me that we're getting flavor PrE's when there are still Core PrE's Missing.

[Cardtrick]

If you go this direction for SWF, it would be nice to add an ability to Fatesinger that grants a significant +W increase when wielding a single weapon. Maybe something like +.5W for every 2nd core (total of +1.5) with a tier 1 or 2 ability available that adds another +1W.

It would also be nice to see an Epic Single Weapon Fighting feat that grants a doublestrike bonus while wielding a single weapon. +15% would seem about right (since Epic TWF adds +10% to offhand and +5% to mainhand).

[Tinco]

I kinda disagree with the design of the feats.

1. Especially in heroic levels, a lot of the damage of melees come from item effects like 'Flaming' or 'Holy'. SWF feats do nothing for those and considering that most heroic weapons have 1W or 1,5W the bonus is very small.

2. Animations for SWF are not 'swashbucklery' at the moment at all. For a good feeling of the whole playstyle I highly recommend speeding it up and those feats are the perfect place for that. I think 5%-10% attack speed per feat would go a long way.

3. Increasing the damage doesn't really fit the style of SWF. Fencing is about speed and precision and those are best modeled by attack speed and critical hits and I really think that the feats should embrace that. What about 10 stacking exceptional seeker per feat?

So my idea would be:

SFW/ISWF/GSWF - 10 seeker , 5% attack speed

Some scaling with the attack speed and a strong distinctive feature revolving around crits because high crits make all people happy.

[LuKaSu]

Could we add SWF as bonus artificer feats too? I haven't gotten around to building my melee arty yet, but I keep wanting to, and I think that it could yield some interesting possibilities.

Oh, and I really like the progress that has been made on the Swashbucker tree! Great job, folks!

[jakeelala]

I kinda disagree with the design of the feats.

1. Especially in heroic levels, a lot of the damage of melees come from item effects like 'Flaming' or 'Holy'. SWF feats do nothing for those and considering that most heroic weapons have 1W or 1,5W the bonus is very small.

2. Animations for SWF are not 'swashbucklery' at the moment at all. For a good feeling of the whole playstyle I highly recommend speeding it up and those feats are the perfect place for that. I think 5%-10% attack speed per feat would go a long way.

3. Increasing the damage doesn't really fit the style of SWF. Fencing is about speed and precision and those are best modeled by attack speed and critical hits and I really think that the feats should embrace that. What about 10 stacking exceptional seeker per feat?

So my idea would be:

SFW/ISWF/GSWF - 10 seeker , 5% attack speed

Some scaling with the attack speed and a strong distinctive feature revolving around crits because high crits make all people happy.

Don't forget, they should get a lot of Fort Bypass too. That's part of being Precise

[Ovrad]

Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.

And again, what is that chance?

[Gorijun]

Personally, I'd rather see a straight "+2" (stacking [with all other 'bonuses']) damage (to the total base damage), rather than "+2 sides". This would basically do the same thing, EXCEPT it would increase the minimum damage; e.g. a 1d8 weapon would now do 3-10 points damage (1d8 + 2) instead of 1-10 points (1d10). The maximum damage remains the same, just the minimum damage is increased. This should also bypass the 'technical' issues with weapons that have multiple base dice: 2d4 would do 4-10 damage (2d4 + 2), thus allowing the 'rare', special weapons to be used (which, IMO, they should be). Since you should not be mutiplying the added damage by the number of base dice (i.e. you would not be doing 2*[1d4 + 2] damage), I would think this might alleviate the balance concerns with using the multi-base dice weapons, too.

I would also think that it might also be easier to code, but what do I know?

This is a good idea. Or, if it's easier to code, divide the die increase by the number of base dice so 2d4 become 2d5 then 2d6 then 2d7 (by adding +2/2, +4/2, +6/2 "sides" to the dice). But that is harder to describe in text for the player base, so I'd suggest adding the +2 as the better option.

[ddorimble]

[*]Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Attack Damage while the Precision feat is active.

Oh yeah, I also forgot to add, Precision is one of those 'unexpanded' abilities. Power Attack opens other things up--like Cleave and Great Cleave and Overwhelming Critical--and also particularly things in Legendary Dreadnaught. While it is nice that you can somewhat replace Power Attack with Precision with this enhancement, it doesn't open up any other neat things. Precision still stands alone.

Either add some Precision stance improvements elsewhere (some maybe here in Swashbuckler), or allow Precision to also count as Power Attack to qualify for other currently existing things (either in general, or as a benefit of this PrE).

Also consider allowing the Dex/Int/Cha Enhancements to allow you to use those same stats to qualify for other things that have Str requirements (like Power Attack).

The whole 'something other than Str to damage' thing just falls apart because so many other things are still so Str centric.

[Synthetic]

Math seams to indicate these are at least as good as THF feat.

GSWF with a 4.5[w] adds on average 13.5 damage per hit (4.5*3=13.5)
GTHF assuming an average damage of 100.25 (4.5[1d8] + 80) is 12.5 (1.5*.75*100.25 - 100.25 = 12.5)

You should consider adding a bonus to finesse able weapons such as [3/6/10]% bonus to alacrity or armor piercing to make up for the fact that Bastardsword and DAxe users can use both the THF and the SWF feat.

Your calculations are off. You're multiplying the full damage by .75 and seeing a 12% increase for thf it's actually .5*.75*damage or a 37% increase. Granted that damage doesn't increase on critical or benefit from double strike but you don't get str or power attack increases for swf.

Why would you gain added bonuses if the other guy spent 4 more feats?

[Enoach]

Here is my issues with the direction:

1. Most people that do any melee with a single handed weapon will have a Shield in the off-hand - making this feat only usable by those that can use an Orb or Runearm
2. Increasing the sides by +2 and not including weapons that have multiple dice as base is too limiting. Even though most Single handed weapons are 1dN it removes the possibility of benefit from a single handed weapon that has multiple dice for a base.

Two Handed Fighting gains damage in Glancing Blows and increase chance of Weapon Procs on glancing blows as much as 50% damage and 9% proc

Two Weapon Fighting gains reduced to-hit penalty on Off-Hand weapon and increased chance of an off-hand weapon attack as much as 80% with all 3 feats

The Single Weapon Fighting will increase a 1d8 to as much as 1d14 (A non-standard increment) which will increase the average damage from 4.5 to 7.5


Now considering what types of builds would benefit from only using a single weapon and nothing/Orb/Runearm in the off hand this would be limited to Divine/Arcane melee builds and with release swashbucklers when they become available.

My thought if you wanted to add this kind of focus feat would go a step further and allow Multi-dice weapons to also benefit allowing a 2d6 weapon to also benefit from these feats. But not stop there and also add a measure of either Attack Speed or Double Strike to the Feats maybe even adjusted based on weapon classifications such as Light to Heavy weapons getting different speed bonuses. Using a Single Weapon for Melee will mean more if more attacks occur.

[Nibor]

Math seams to indicate these are at least as good as THF feat.

GSWF with a 4.5[w] adds on average 13.5 damage per hit (4.5*3=13.5)
GTHF assuming an average damage of 100.25 (4.5[1d8] + 80) is 12.5 (1.5*.75*100.25 - 100.25 = 12.5)

You should consider adding a bonus to finesse able weapons such as [3/6/10]% bonus to alacrity or armor piercing to make up for the fact that Bastardsword and DAxe users can use both the THF and the SWF feat.

Your math seems really odd - i think your 1.5* and your - 100.25 is supposed to represent a .5* effect, but you can't do it that way when you're also multiplying times .75. But it's not clear what you meant. Here's a cleaner approach, using your assumption of 100 average damage/swing for the 2HF. Having all 3 THF feats gives you a 30% boost to glancing blow damage (and you start at 20%, so you're at 50% now). GTHF also gives glancing blows on one attack in the sequence that doesn't have it without. So you're going from:
Glancing blows, 20% damage, 50% of the time = 100*.2*.5 = 10 damage per swing
to:
Glancing blows, 50% damage, 75% of the time = 100*.5*.75 = 37.5 damage per swing
for a total improvement of 27.5 damage per swing - ignoring multiple nearby mobs, 9% improved chance of weapon procs, and crits, which are all non-trivial. Even this amount shows that the THF line is worth twice as much as the single weapon fighting feats if you can reach 100 average damage per swing.
The breakeven point for average damage on THF is 49. If you average 49 damage per swing with your THF, excluding crits and weapon procs, then the THF feats are worth the same to you as SWF feats. A thunderforged Greataxe at Tier 2 (enough to get the 4.5[W], so same as the SWF is using) is 4.5*6.5+11=40.25, with no power attack, strength bonus, deadly item...nothing. It's almost impossible to have average THF damage that low when you're at the same level of weapon that the SWF is using.

Let's not even try to compare them to TWF, right? As we see, the bonus with a thunderforged weapon is 13.5 damage. If the TWF was getting a base of only 23 damage per swing - and this does include weapon procs, since it's a full attack (with less ability score bonus to the attack), then 60% proc increase of off-hand attacks is still higher than 13.5 from the SWF feats. Absurd.

I'm pretty underwhelmed by the value of Single Weapon Fighting. The feats need to be not only on par with, but *better* than THF and TWF feats, because the mechanics of THF and TWF are better than SWF without feats to begin with.

So...yes, the SWF are trash. The swashbuckling bard will use them because it's better than nothing, but they'll be sad about it. No other build is going to be created because of these feats; they don't even help S&B builds (I would *LOVE* to hear the reason for not giving S&B access to the single weapon fighter feats, that's what I thought they were for!). May as well just make these enhancements in the swashbuckler tree and not make the feat-starved bard pay 3 feats for this trash.

[Loromir]

Double Strike and Alacrity...That is where the Swashbuckler offensive bonuses should be.


Swashbuckler should get the highest Doublestrike percentages in the game.
Swashbuckler should get a nice bonus to Melee Alacrity.
Swashbuckler should get a bonus the Crit Range over and above Improved Critical (with a slight penalty to multiplier....maybe -0.5).


Think about it in real life. I liken a Swashbuckler to a fencer. They specialize in speed and accuracy. The single hit damage of a fencer would be would be much lower than someone wielding a two handed sword or two Khopeshes...but that fencer/Swashbuckler might hit you 3 times before the other two could get one hit in.

Hint....Think speed/accuracy/multiple attacks