Swashbuckler

[Thrudh]

Why are people saying this is worthless?

TON of dodge, and evasion as a capstone is pretty cool.

Double strike action boost.. sweet

I suggest getting rid of the -1 crit multiplier in En Pointe... Since it costs spell points, it's already limited.

Battering Barrage is awesome... Always-on Improved Destruction is very solid...

And Exploit Weakness is very nice... Anything that increases crits is good, right?

[Eelpout]

nvm

[Seikojin]

I like the look of this tree and love that it has buckler play. My comments and suggestions:
Core:
Captsone should offer double stats (like I think all capstones should offer), and +1 threat range on equipped weapon. Also maybe a 5% boost or so to doublestrike would help here.

Blow by blow should also add 5/10/20 sonic spellpower as a passive. Same with resonant arms. And the Loud and Clear toggle should add 25 spellpower. This way, with all three, you get a moderate boost to spellpower for their attacks (65).

Aqua vitae should be affected by spellpower too.

I would have to see this with the feats to really see what it would play out like. However it looks manageable as a multiclass choice, but not a superstar on its own. Hopefully we can also look at the thoughts for the other two tree changes so we can see how they would play together (since if you went pure 20 bard, you would be utilizing three trees and racials to make this shine).

[jakeelala]

Lots of awesome stuff here but let me try to re-orient your development efforts:

Bard's and Monks cannot multiclass. Therefore, anything you want people to take for Melee involving this tree will be useless and unused if it cannot compete directly with 6-12 levels of Monk and their corresponding enhancement trees. The ONLY thrower build that is playable is Shurikens right now. No Shuriken build is evenb close to Viable without 3 levels of Monk for Ninja Master and/or 6 Levels of Monk for 10k.

If you don't introduce new THROWING feats for making other thrown weapons viable against Shuriken or Ranged combat with bows/xbows, NO ONE WILL USE THIS TREE FOR THROWING. That's either MASSIVE boosts to doublesshot, or a similar % based proc for extra ammo like Shuriken Expertise and Lvl 3 Ninja Spy Core.

PLEASE HEED THIS.

[junta64]

Passive: In addition, while Swashbuckling, you gain +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains a Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier that makes it x3 (ignoring other bonuses) and Critical Threat Range that makes it 18-20 (ignoring other bonuses).

I'm reading this as all finesse weapons will have the same crit multiplier and range. If not you could get a light pick that's x4 and 18-20.

[jakeelala]

I'd like to know if anyone on your player council:
a. Has a high-level end game Shuriken Build
b. Can imagine how this could ever compete with a multiclassed Monk build

I think there are niche places for this prestige, but please do not kid yourself that it has a place in Thrower builds, because there ARE NO THROWER BUILDS WITHOUT MONK at this point in time.

Unless you only play epic normal.

[ForgettableNPC]

Well, I hope Crystal Cove comes up soon so I can make most versions of the Swashbuckler, then.

That or invest in a Buckler with high Riposte.

I think we should also look into Shield Bashing or any similar enhancement to be included in the tree if one chooses to use a Buckler in their off-hand, as well, like the Shield Striking from Stalwart Defender tree.

[Lencrennis]

Alright, let's look at this for throwers, assuming a simple 20 monk thrower.

What are we losing?

10k Stars
Stances
Celestia
Sting of the Ninja (When it works)
Capstone (When it works)
Ninja Training

What are we getting

18-20/x3 crit - Effectively like a capstoned monk thrower with earth stance up. Does a lot to remove the allure of monk
Rune arms - A decent replacement for Celestia. Glass Cannon or Toven's Hammer with +1d6 sonic does similar damage to a single target, but the lack of AoE and planar conflux will be hard to swallow.
+4 doubleshot, +4 damage, +2 enhancement - All of this together will just about match ST with Celestia
6d6 sonic on crit - With good spell power, this will equate to the crit damage sting of the ninja should be giving, but to a much better energy type.
Class-integrated Cocoon - You mean I get a twist slot back?
No need for Enlightenment - You mean I get two twist slots back?
On command extra sonic damage that scales - If this is a nice, round number that I can bring over 200 or so with spell power, I'll be quite pleased.

+5 damage and building up to crits to get more crit effects
Ability to wear the light shadow armor for 2d6 sneak damage
+30% doubleshot action boost
+6 enhancement bonus on thrower - planar focus

Okay, I think you've sold me. With the new epic destiny, that's a possible 94% doubleshot with no gear allocated. The throwing rate will run about 75-80% the rate of throwing with a monk, and, though Celestia's loss hurts like crazy, the fairly ridiculous effects sitting here make up for about half of that loss.

Suggestions:

This playstyle loses a great deal, so it needs to give a great deal. You're close - how about sneaking in 1d6 sneak attack at the third rank of fast movement?

[lain5246]

Hi! We’re writing to give you an early look at the Swashbuckler, an upcoming Bard Prestige Enhancement line coming to DDO with Update 22. A major focus of Swashbuckler is a new style of fighting in DDO: Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re working on creating a line of Single-Weapon Fighting Feats, similar in power and scope to Two-Weapon and Two-Handed Fighting, tentatively giving some Dodge and Armor Piercing (ignoring enemy Fortification.) The Swashbuckler also supports Thrown Weapon builds. The Swashbuckler’s Sonic damage scales with Spellpower in most places.

We believe having the Swashbuckler focus on Single-Weapon Fighting makes for interesting build options, both for pure Bards and multi-classed characters. We’ve also worked to make sure that players can spend a moderate amount of points in the Swashbuckler tree and receive good benefits, even if the build isn’t focusing on Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re hoping to find time to improve Warchanter and Spellsinger as well, although those improvements are likely more limited in scope, and those changes may end up delayed beyond the launch of Update 22.

Please take a look at the Swashbuckler, and give us your comments, general ideas, and larger reactions in addition to feedback on individual abilities. As usual, this is an early look, so details may change, including names, individual numbers, including AP costs, and any balance concerns (which we welcome your input on.)




Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: In addition, while Swashbuckling, you gain +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains a Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier that makes it x3 (ignoring other bonuses) and Critical Threat Range that makes it 18-20 (ignoring other bonuses).
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Tier One

1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
2. Blow By Blow:
   
   1. Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power.
   
   
3. Multiselector: Insults
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   
   
4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate.
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
3. Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown).
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.)
5. Multiselector:
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
   2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
2. Swashbuckling Style:
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
   2. Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.
   3. Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
   4. Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
4. Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus.
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
2. Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
   3. Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power.
   4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.
2. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

I like the tree over all but can we get evasion any earlier?

[jakeelala]

I don't understand this:

"Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot."

NO Thrower build would ever be without an off-hand item. They provide % damage procs, or in the case of armor piercing and red augments Spell Power boosts and other nice things. Also, it's the only way to have the set bonus from planar focus.

This is a BAD idea, and NOT conducive to a good thrower build. It is in direct conflict with an important source of equipment for all thrower builds today (Off Hand).

[Grimlock]

Hi! We’re writing to give you an early look at the Swashbuckler, an upcoming Bard Prestige Enhancement line coming to DDO with Update 22. A major focus of Swashbuckler is a new style of fighting in DDO: Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re working on creating a line of Single-Weapon Fighting Feats, similar in power and scope to Two-Weapon and Two-Handed Fighting, tentatively giving some Dodge and Armor Piercing (ignoring enemy Fortification.) The Swashbuckler also supports Thrown Weapon builds. The Swashbuckler’s Sonic damage scales with Spellpower in most places.

We believe having the Swashbuckler focus on Single-Weapon Fighting makes for interesting build options, both for pure Bards and multi-classed characters. We’ve also worked to make sure that players can spend a moderate amount of points in the Swashbuckler tree and receive good benefits, even if the build isn’t focusing on Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re hoping to find time to improve Warchanter and Spellsinger as well, although those improvements are likely more limited in scope, and those changes may end up delayed beyond the launch of Update 22.

Please take a look at the Swashbuckler, and give us your comments, general ideas, and larger reactions in addition to feedback on individual abilities. As usual, this is an early look, so details may change, including names, individual numbers, including AP costs, and any balance concerns (which we welcome your input on.)




Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: In addition, while Swashbuckling, you gain +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains a Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier that makes it x3 (ignoring other bonuses) and Critical Threat Range that makes it 18-20 (ignoring other bonuses).
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Tier One

1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
2. Blow By Blow:
   
   1. Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power.
   
   
3. Multiselector: Insults
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   
   
4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate.
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
3. Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown).
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.)
5. Multiselector:
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
   2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
2. Swashbuckling Style:
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
   2. Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.
   3. Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
   4. Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
4. Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus.
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
2. Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
   3. Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power.
   4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.
2. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Well done. I mean that and rarely say it here. Nice job to whoever put this draft together and Vargouille deserves a promotion for posting it on the forums. Communication is improving with some of the development team - nice to see some of that red tape getting cut away.

I wanted to see evasion as a possible capstone and lo and behold there it is!

I cannot wait to resurrect my old Bard and try out the Swashbuckler.

Please consider reviewing how this turns out and consider adding it to other classes as a capstone like Fighter. Ideas like this will help curb the monk problem.

[rest]

Why are people saying this is worthless?

Because it's a bard tree.

TON of dodge, and evasion as a capstone is pretty cool.

I have max dodge already. And I guess the solution to "every capstone should be as good as evasion" means "every capstone is evasion"?

Double strike action boost.. sweet

Druid does it better.

I suggest getting rid of the -1 crit multiplier in En Pointe... Since it costs spell points, it's already limited.

Couldn't care either way.

Battering Barrage is awesome... Always-on Improved Destruction is very solid...

I guess if you miss a lot.

And Exploit Weakness is very nice... Anything that increases crits is good, right?

I misread this amd retract my statement. It is pretty powerful, but you have to be "swashbuckling" to use it which limits the effectiveness. Unless part of the plan is to make people not want to splash bard to get goodies from this tree.

[IronClan]

Exploit Weaknesses is actually pretty solid. You have to use a finessable weapon thus the whole run arm does not make a lot of sense. I would have to say with a x3 finessable crit weapon you should be able to crit much more frequently with exploit weaknesses. Getting adrenalines in fury of the wild is going to happen all the time. I have not looked at the numbers on doublstrike, but I would actually say in fury of the wild this is going to be an extremely potent enhancement. Lots of CC with adrenaline etc...

Like the Dev's you're not compensating for the fact that a Single Weapon Fighter is automatically losing .8 attacks, procs, crits, burst damage, on crit procs, Paladin Smites, One shot attack clickies etc.

With their attacks nearly halved the amount of power gained by a little crit range is insignificant compared to what they lose. What they gain from having a buckler in the off hand is also extremely "meh" as AC is only useful in EH or lower, and all the other stuff can be had with a ultility weapon like Balizard in the off hand.

Not just that, a archetypical swashbuckler is mobile and suddenly leathal there's nothing suddenly leathal about more chance to crit... sawing down 65,000hp monsters 100 damage at a time with 1d6 4[W] 19-20X2 weapons with a 15% higher than normal crit chance is not lethal. A crit multiplier or some sort of chance to proc an insta kill would be suddenly lethal... Like the musketeer rolling behind the opponent (tumble) coming up on their unguarded side and stabbing at their heart (20% off a tumble to instakill with appropriate DC).

Dash: an abudant step that has a 20% chance to insta-kill 1 trash mob that is at the end of the dash.

Water Dance: for every X times you're missed in combat your Critical Multiplier increases by 1 until you critically hit or get hit (they made a generic version of this suggestion obviously and used critical range instead of multiplier)

If Swashbuckler isn't lethal it's just a half DPS class this is strapped for feats and hurting for relevant contributions to the group.

[rest]

I don't understand this:

"Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot."

NO Thrower build would ever be without an off-hand item. They provide % damage procs, or in the case of armor piercing and red augments Spell Power boosts and other nice things. Also, it's the only way to have the set bonus from planar focus.

This is a BAD idea, and NOT conducive to a good thrower build. It is in direct conflict with an important source of equipment for all thrower builds today (Off Hand).

SSShhhh!!! If you mention that, they'll just take away the ability of your offhand weapon to proc when you throw stuff! They don't buff, only nerf!!

[Cetus]

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge. Very weak - how about charisma to damage, to provide some flavor and splash perk?
  
• Passive: In addition, while Swashbuckling, you gain +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains a Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier that makes it x3 (ignoring other bonuses) and Critical Threat Range that makes it 18-20 (ignoring other bonuses). Does this ignore any other profile affecting abilities, like keen edge, overwhelming crit, devastating crtiical, etc?

[*]41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus. Weak, you aren't incentivizing going pure here - could just splash rogue for this[/LIST]

Tier One

1. Blow By Blow:
   
   1. Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power. Whats the sonic damage? There should be a value here
   
   
2. Multiselector: Insults
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   
   
   I don't really care about these that much, might be situationally useful for an orange name you are trying to CC or something
   
3. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

This is weak

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate. What in the world is this? We crit all the time, we don't need to guarantee one at the expense of losing a multiplier. Worthless ability.
   
   
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows) This is decent
   
3. Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown). This is like a crappy version of cocoon, who cares about this if its a long cooldown. How long do you think 60 hitpoitns will last you and that's IF you're pure?
   
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.) Very weak, enemies have way more hitpoints than this damage, you won't go out of your way to get missed just to do this very small amount of damage
   
   
5. Multiselector:
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest. Nice to have I suppose
      

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds. Small chance? What's the chance? Again, not relying on mobs missing me for a small chance of knocking them down, more unreliable useless and random attempts at CC for melees
2. Swashbuckling Style:
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot. This isn't bad, but really - this won't compete with TWF dps. Why have nothing in our offhand?
      
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower. This isn't bad, although it should be on every hit and not on just crits
4. Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus. This is alright
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers) Lol attack, almost worthless at this level, this should get shoved in some lower tier
2. Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points. The one controllable CC stuns for 1 second? This is ridiculous
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points. This might have some use
   3. Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power. Horrendous
      
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction. This is nice
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels. Not bad
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active. I like this, but power attack relies on momentum swing - might be hard to justify on a melee oriented toon
2. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit. Tier 5 needs stronger abilities, this ones alright - but something a bit more enticing is needed here.

Some comments in red

[jakeelala]

Alright, let's look at this for throwers, assuming a simple 20 monk thrower.

What are we losing?

Stances
Celestia
Sting of the Ninja (When it works)
Capstone (When it works)
Ninja Training

What are we getting

18-20/x3 crit - Effectively like a capstoned monk thrower with earth stance up. Does a lot to remove the allure of monk
Rune arms - A decent replacement for Celestia. Glass Cannon or Toven's Hammer with +1d6 sonic does similar damage to a single target, but the lack of AoE and planar conflux will be hard to swallow.
+4 doubleshot, +4 damage, +2 enhancement - All of this together will just about match ST with Celestia
6d6 sonic on crit - With good spell power, this will equate to the crit damage sting of the ninja should be giving, but to a much better energy type.
Class-integrated Cocoon - You mean I get a twist slot back?
No need for Enlightenment - You mean I get two twist slots back?
On command extra sonic damage that scales - If this is a nice, round number that I can bring over 200 or so with spell power, I'll be quite pleased.

+5 damage and building up to crits to get more crit effects
Ability to wear the light shadow armor for 2d6 sneak damage
+30% doubleshot action boost
+6 enhancement bonus on thrower

Okay, I think you've sold me. With the new epic destiny, that's a possible 94% doubleshot with no gear allocated. The throwing rate will run about 75-80% the rate of throwing with a monk, and, though Celestia's loss hurts like crazy, the fairly ridiculous effects sitting here make up for about half of that loss.

Suggestions:

This playstyle loses a great deal, so it needs to give a great deal. You're close - how about sneaking in 1d6 sneak attack at the third rank of fast movement?

Um,

You lose Dex based chance for extra shuriken in Ninja Spy. That's an ENORMOUS loss of damage. And you can only use Shuriken Expertise with Shuriken.

You're still arguable down from any Monk/Shuriken based thrower because your procs are so much lower (number of projectiles). How in the WORLD are you calculating a 75-80% throw rate of a monk?

A monk Shuri thrower with 70 Dex throws 1 + .7 +.7 Shuriken per animation. That's around 2.4 a second, BEFORE double shot or 10k.

I don't understand your math. This needs a NEW feat called "Throwing Expertise" That allows for extra ammo on all or specific Throwing weapon types at the VERY least to compete. We don't need 2 sources like a Monk with Shuriken, but make a Level 3 Tiers 2 Core Enhancement like Monk that allows for a Dex based Proc chance of any or a type specific (Thrown Hammer, Thrown Dagger, whatever, selector if it needs to be) thrown item.

THEN all of this starts to maybe be attractive.

[IronClan]

Why are people saying this is worthless?

Weak != worthless

Just not good enough to make Bard's relevant.

[Cardtrick]

Do we lose Swashbuckling stance if we have a scroll or wand in our main hand?

Bards are a UMD class. If I'm going to lose my Swashbuckling stance every time I use a heal scroll or cure wand and have to manually re-enable it afterward, you can bet I'm not going to have a lot of fun.

Beyond the sheer annoyance, that means you also lose Evasion at one of the times when you want it most -- when you're in trouble and need to pop a Heal scroll.

[ArkoHighStar]

so you made a rogue PRE and gave it to bards

/sigh

why would anyone go single hand fighting with a buckler or orb for that matter, can you honestly say one rapier with 3x crit will beat out 2 rapiers with 2x crit, or even match it?

And why only bucklers and not small shields which are basically identical in DDO execpt for bash damage, that and there is only one named buckler in the entire game, well there are only 4 small shields , but why limit it when they are essentially the same.

The whole thing just seems underwhelming.

Its too bad you couldn't have just fixed up WC and SS.

[Seikojin]

Single-Weapon Fighting feats need not be identical to Swashbuckling in terms of requirements.

We have some ideas on what we might do with them, but we're happiest to have you guys tell us what you think they should be before putting up one particular idea as the point of comparison.



This is an always-on toggle, as long as you meet the requirements.

Since feats are expensive, I would hope that they are strong. Like finally adding half hand damage boosting for bas swords.

I think feats to allow one handed fighting offer a dodge, ac, and attack bonus and damage bonus are in line.

I think feats in general need to scale in character levels, so that is where I am going to come from.
Parry: +1% dodge at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20
Deflect: +1 to ac at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19
Riposte: +1 to prr at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19
Jab: up to +1 to hit at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20
Improved jab: bab 8 min and jab feat:+1x crit multiplier
Forceful strikes: when using a 1 handed weapon with nothing in your offhand, gain +.5[W] at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20

A lot of feats, but things I think that would be useful for one handed fighting.