Player Character Balance

[Kadriel]

Ok, I haven't even read the OP yet, I'll go back to it...

But first I have to say: Someone really opened up that can of worms? Really???

Be honest Varg, you lost a bet, didn't you?

[SirValentine]

Balance is a white whale - you will never ever get it.

You'll never get PERFECT balance...but it's not that hard, and is a good idea, to avoid gross imbalance.

[Livmo]

Look anything can be good in DDO. It depends on how well its built, how well its played, and how demanding the player is on whats an acceptable level of play for them. While anything can make a viable build option (in terms of class/destiny selection, which is what the survey covers), there are some people who have demands which are easier met in some places as opposed to others. Thats impossible to just rate off a list.

I did not comment in this thread on power, but was tempted, https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...asses-by-power

I think and feel all of classes in a pure form can be uber and most powerful depending on the player and their play style.

I played a pure paladin with OK success. A guild mate that plays pure paladin is way better at it than I was for sure and the stuff he does blows me away times, and I wonder why I didn't think of that? I've seen more than a few pure bards and barbarians rock and roll in EE content. Also druids that would give sorcs and wizzies a run for their plat as well. I've seen uber clerics deal damage. Most of you on Sarlona already know I suck as a cleric tho : ) ) For me that was the hardest class to play.

EDIT ~ I'm feel I'm way better at healing with my arty based on how I play. I suck at fighter as well (stuck at L18).

[Cathimon]

My main beef is with most classes getting their best stuff at level 2 or so. Paladin: Aura of Grace. Rangers: Bow feats/2WF, Monks: Evasion + 2 feats, etc.

Also, nerf Fury Shot. And buff virtualy all capstones.

[Cordovan]

Ok, I haven't even read the OP yet, I'll go back to it...

But first I have to say: Someone really opened up that can of worms? Really???

Be honest Varg, you lost a bet, didn't you?

It's an important topic, and one we are interested in getting feedback from the community on. We have our own opinions and ideas, but feel it's good to get opinions and ideas from the community as well. We're well aware that this can be a hot topic. That's fine. Please folks, though, make sure to not insult others or otherwise violate the Community Guidelines. Not saying that you have been at all, just sayin' for future reference.

[NytCrawlr]

In some games every class has some degree of self-healing ability. This, of course, wouldn't be classic D&D, but how many DDO players would like this to be true of our game as well? Just curious...

I would say those wanting more of a classic D&D feel should pay more attention to Pathfinder Online.

I think that ship has sailed for DDO a long time ago, but it's not beyond trying to fix on some level.

[Samir_Bennal]

One of the concerns from my standpoint is the byoh factor that now seems to be a requirement for most groups. I have a fighter from when the game very first launched that is built for dps and has no self healing because back then groups wanted a cleric to be around for the healing factor. Now the focus is heal yourself so my fighter sits on the shelf. Not that I am saying it is somebody else's sole responsibility to heal me but that's how groups used to be, dps , crowd control, trapper, healing. I wouldn't mind seeing something that helps promote group diversity again.

[Dawnsfire]

Everyone know that the various Monkcher and Shiradi builds are pretty balanced against each other. I am sure there are a few tweaks that could be made to perfect them but that would be asking too much from the overworked Dev teams. I mean you aren't proposing balancing these against all those other flavor builds are you?

[Hutoth]

You'll never get PERFECT balance...but it's not that hard, and is a good idea, to avoid gross imbalance.

This I grant is true, but the more successful we are at "balancing", the less anyone's build choices will matter. I want my build choices to matter.

Just because in the current U21 set-up, with the current EE end game there are build combos that perform really well compared to others doesn't mean there's a problem. The gradual evolution of DDO has seen "the best" builds come and go as gradual changes are made to systems: most successfully when poor cousins got a boost, and most annoyingly when flavours-of-the-month got nerfed. You're a long-time player, you seen these builds come and go like me.

The dev post almost flat out says "we're laying the groundwork for nerfs on several EDs and at least one class". That's a whole lot of nerfs, and the end result will be a new flavour-of-the-month build achieved through lots of pain. Where's the love for our poor cousins, and why is pursuing balance immediately so important when we know this will change over time anyway.

[patang01]

Honestly, I think you're going about this the wrong way. The issue is not that some classes are so powerful and others are not, it's that you're creating content that require to adopt the most suitable class.

Was heavy dps like fighters and barbarians over powered back in the shroud days when level 20 was max? Or cc casters? Why was Monks and Rangers not the vogue?

I tell you why, you have created a game of HPbags, inflated saves and mechanics where you can avoid lots of damage through evasion or ranged but there are little to mitigate damage in melee. Simply put, critters always hit, spells always takes and there's not enough DR or PRR to make a non evasion heavy dps viable unless they cheese blitz. And if they're not blitzing they better be avoiding damage by stunning, knocking down, evasion and or ranged.

Thus you get Monkchers, Rangers, Shiradi spammers. Because CC is not that viable and useful and unless you can conserve your resources you're going to bleed through your maximized spells in no time. That's again because of HPbag critters.

Look at the current upper end content and ask yourself if it favors melee or evasion and ranged? To 'nerf' the few viable options in order to balance classes will only make everything weaker across the board while the real issue remains. The content have gone off the rails. A EN Giant in a quest with 55k HP? That keep knocking you back? Of course I will use a blitzer or a ranged with manyarrow fury. Or a Shiradi caster or something using all the heavy draconic spell damage. That favor the classes that can put most spell power or ranged or whatever into such a silly idiotic encounter.

Or the red named battle ragers in the Shadow raid. I mean seriously; what kind of absurd encounter is that? Of course I will range with maximum SP and since there's no end to spawns I don't want to be anything but a Shiradi caster because I don't feel to sludge against the flow of trash with a limited SP pool and I'm sure healers don't want to SP sponge a fragile heavy hitter.

You created this; not by making blitzing good or Shiradi resources saving fun. Not by allowing manyarrow to be fueled by adrenaline - but by making lazy encounters using the worst mechanics (lots of HP and no way to use tactics on them). Thus your reaction is now to change the reaction so maybe you can balance the critter imbalance.

Here's a miuch better idea. Start working on mechanics. Make smarter critter encounters and where tactical feats are more useful than brute force. Allow people to think outside DPS and figure out how to reduce the overall effectiveness of Shiradi in all cases. Be smart and don't be afraid of making it fun. Right now it's all DPS.

Think about it; how many red named regular critters do you have right now? Look at haunted hall. TONS. Look at the raids, TONS. Players reactions will therefore always be to find the most effective way to deal with those kind of lazy mechanics. if you increase HP we will go or the most cost effective way to DPS that. If you go for resource wasting encounters we will try to find the most resource saving.

Then finally it's about fun. Some stuff is just not fun. Others are. Fun is the essence of playing a game. If you nerf everything to a gray mass of sameness you remove fun. You remove incentive to do something and you will make people look for content that allow fun. I don't want to play the equivalent of 'caster'. I want to play a draconic earth sorc.

[Drwaz99]

The survey is horrible. A good majority of characters are mutli-class and that doesn't even mention them. You can't have a survey on balance and leave a majority of the options people use off of it. IE, Pally's suck but pally splashes are very strong on certain characters. There's no way to reflect that on that survey.

Because of the lack of thought put into the survey, I am hesitant to even take this seriously. If you can't be bothered to make a serious survey, how can we be confident you will take our opinions seriously? Or eve implement the changes seriously?

I don't want some report based on that survey to make it to someone who makes decisions desk and you guys start tinkering around after seeing only a small fraction of the issue.

I also don't want this topic to be touched until there are plans to give everyone the ability to change things again. The +20 heart was nice but many, many people got stuck with 3 class problems during LR's (and it cost them money for a forced fix). Fix that before you even think about touching the balance of characters.

[Qhualor]

the one class I know most about, barbarian.

/DR, even maxxed out, does piddly for defense. this needs to translate better in DDO for it to be an effective defense. in epics mobs are hitting for 300+ constantly and a -/7 DR might as well be -500. this makes it so the points are not used in the trees and barbarians must look for other ways to boost defense, such as dodge, blurry and ghostly items. since barbarians cant cast spells while raged (their bread and butter), you have to load up in defensive items taking up slots that could be better benefited to boost dps. Im fine with trade-offs, but its a little nuts when you have to use 3 slots just for a decent defense. maybe at 20th level barbs are auto granted an extra 20 DR? like FVS for example? or maybe barbs gain more DR while raged only?

one of the best things you guys did for barbs (rogues too) was making the change for Uncanny Dodge. it does make for a noticeable difference increasing Dodge, but its such a long cool down. it makes sense to me that a barbarian experienced in battle would be able to sense an enemies movements and dodge from an enemies attacks more quickly. maybe dodge could be tied into barbarians and increased per level? per 3 levels? as an innate ability?

barbarians are in the back of the bus when it comes to self sufficiency. they cant cast spells while raged and they don't have a blue bar for cure/heal spells. they have to rely on pots for self sufficiency and the best in game we have is CSW and SF pots. CSW is fine in heroics. sometimes in high levels its not enough, but that's where skill and character build should prevail. in epics don't bother. better off just grabbing a hire or asking someone to play healer role. SF pots has too big of a penalty. its the best thing barbarians have to be self sufficient, but your ability scores drop up to 10 points (except con), you lose up to 9 points in saves and your run speed is decreased 50% for 30 seconds. nothing else comes close to this kind of penalty for healing and think a change is in order. at one time it was good for balance purposes, but its far easier today to build for self sufficiency with 0 loss in character power through other class/multi classes than it is for barbarians. generally, barbs will have a lot of hp. CSW pots healing for 36 per pot aint gonna cut it. by level 20, barbs would more than likely be about 1000 hp raged up just to get an idea.

fast healing really isn't fast in DDO. in PnP it works fine, but not here. I made a GS regen item a long time ago for my barb and I was only gaining back 6 hp per minute. Fast Healing in FOTW really isn't any better. I wont waste the points because it heals very little per minute. when mobs are hitting for 300+ constantly, im relying on party members, my penalizing SF pots and Healing Spring. Healing Spring is a problem too because its a random number up to per 20 seconds. it can be a good top off saving me pots, but it sucks when you see you were healed for 1 hp than 36 hp than 14 hp than 96 hp... barbarians need a reliable source of healing for when it counts since they are front line melees taking on a number of mobs at a time and generally grabbing agro with such high dps.

I suggest enhancements that boost the amount of hp gained from drinking pots. if balance is a concern with removing the penalty from SF pots as every class would benefit from it, than enhancements would be the next best thing. make the amount at minimum equal to what you can get from SF pots based on heal amp, whatever the math on that would be. right now, my main barbarian can heal from SF pots for 600+, just to give you an idea and that's with Claw set, 3x paladin lives, ship buff and human enhancements.

another suggestion would be some kind of enhancement, maybe better off in FOTW, that drains the life force from enemies and replenishes your hp or gives back a certain per cent. this could work after a mob is dead you gain X hp. I wouldn't suggest only if the barb gets the killing blow because we already have issues with Blitzers. at least some kind of life stealing but worth while.

[danlan]

Dear Vargouille,

People already made extensive comments in another thread named "Let's Talk About Monster Stats!" started by No Dice.

I think it would be worthwhile to refer to the thread of sirgog as below:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Stats!/page20



I think the problem of balance is only evident in the context of epic elite, which is directly caused by the following features of epic elite (and the issue is worsening):

1. inflated monster hp (especially for orange and red named)

2. inflaged monster saves (literally untouchable)

3. inflated monster damages (renders non-ranged combat styles nonviable)

4. infated monster dc (causes players to overly focus on building up saves at the expense of all other varieties; if you dont build saves, you die instantly from cometfall/evo spells/soundburst etc.)

5. especially from update 19, the number of trashes also increase dramatically. This is very annoying combined with the above 4 points.


All of the above render all classes combinations powerless except for the below:

1. Shiradi casters who can hit from long distance, who are totally unaffected by monster saves, and who can do much more damage than any other casters!

My suggestion would be while making adjustment to Epic elites, it would be necessary to make all procs by shiradi only affected by 50% (or another ratio) of spell powers.


2. Furyshot moncher

I would suggest that adrenaline can only work on the first damage from manyshot/ten thousand star (if techically possible)

The above maybe a bit unfair to pure rangers, an alternative suggestion would be to nerf ten thousand star/manyshot combo, for example using manyshot would disable ten thousand star for say, 100 seconds.


Thank you.

[rest]

I have 1 single "pure" character on my account that is not a mule. It's a wizard. All of the others I play are multiclass. Poorly designed poll.

[Pastor2112]

Balance is overrated and boring. Variety is more interesting and what makes this game so great.

[Uska]

the one class I know most about, barbarian.

/DR, even maxxed out, does piddly for defense. this needs to translate better in DDO for it to be an effective defense. in epics mobs are hitting for 300+ constantly and a -/7 DR might as well be -500. this makes it so the points are not used in the trees and barbarians must look for other ways to boost defense, such as dodge, blurry and ghostly items. since barbarians cant cast spells while raged (their bread and butter), you have to load up in defensive items taking up slots that could be better benefited to boost dps. Im fine with trade-offs, but its a little nuts when you have to use 3 slots just for a decent defense. maybe at 20th level barbs are auto granted an extra 20 DR? like FVS for example? or maybe barbs gain more DR while raged only?

one of the best things you guys did for barbs (rogues too) was making the change for Uncanny Dodge. it does make for a noticeable difference increasing Dodge, but its such a long cool down. it makes sense to me that a barbarian experienced in battle would be able to sense an enemies movements and dodge from an enemies attacks more quickly. maybe dodge could be tied into barbarians and increased per level? per 3 levels? as an innate ability?

barbarians are in the back of the bus when it comes to self sufficiency. they cant cast spells while raged and they don't have a blue bar for cure/heal spells. they have to rely on pots for self sufficiency and the best in game we have is CSW and SF pots. CSW is fine in heroics. sometimes in high levels its not enough, but that's where skill and character build should prevail. in epics don't bother. better off just grabbing a hire or asking someone to play healer role. SF pots has too big of a penalty. its the best thing barbarians have to be self sufficient, but your ability scores drop up to 10 points (except con), you lose up to 9 points in saves and your run speed is decreased 50% for 30 seconds. nothing else comes close to this kind of penalty for healing and think a change is in order. at one time it was good for balance purposes, but its far easier today to build for self sufficiency with 0 loss in character power through other class/multi classes than it is for barbarians. generally, barbs will have a lot of hp. CSW pots healing for 36 per pot aint gonna cut it. by level 20, barbs would more than likely be about 1000 hp raged up just to get an idea.

fast healing really isn't fast in DDO. in PnP it works fine, but not here. I made a GS regen item a long time ago for my barb and I was only gaining back 6 hp per minute. Fast Healing in FOTW really isn't any better. I wont waste the points because it heals very little per minute. when mobs are hitting for 300+ constantly, im relying on party members, my penalizing SF pots and Healing Spring. Healing Spring is a problem too because its a random number up to per 20 seconds. it can be a good top off saving me pots, but it sucks when you see you were healed for 1 hp than 36 hp than 14 hp than 96 hp... barbarians need a reliable source of healing for when it counts since they are front line melees taking on a number of mobs at a time and generally grabbing agro with such high dps.

I suggest enhancements that boost the amount of hp gained from drinking pots. if balance is a concern with removing the penalty from SF pots as every class would benefit from it, than enhancements would be the next best thing. make the amount at minimum equal to what you can get from SF pots based on heal amp, whatever the math on that would be. right now, my main barbarian can heal from SF pots for 600+, just to give you an idea and that's with Claw set, 3x paladin lives, ship buff and human enhancements.

another suggestion would be some kind of enhancement, maybe better off in FOTW, that drains the life force from enemies and replenishes your hp or gives back a certain per cent. this could work after a mob is dead you gain X hp. I wouldn't suggest only if the barb gets the killing blow because we already have issues with Blitzers. at least some kind of life stealing but worth while.

Not all classes or builds should be able to reliably self-heal I will never ever be for that 4E style baloney.

[Livmo]

It's an important topic, and one we are interested in getting feedback from the community on. We have our own opinions and ideas, but feel it's good to get opinions and ideas from the community as well. We're well aware that this can be a hot topic. That's fine. Please folks, though, make sure to not insult others or otherwise violate the Community Guidelines. Not saying that you have been at all, just sayin' for future reference.

TY!

We are all in this together. I enjoy a spirited debate as much as anyone else, but it always makes sad when a nifty thread breaks down into this:

[Qhualor]

Not all classes or builds should be able to reliably self-heal I will never ever be for that 4E style baloney.

I grew up on AD&D and know nothing of 4E.

the game has evolved into "be self sufficient or don't bother joining". if the devs cant make adjustment s to go back to the way DDO was a few years ago with more role players than every class needs to be able to keep up with the changes to the game today.

[Uska]

I grew up on AD&D and know nothing of 4E.

the game has evolved into "be self sufficient or don't bother joining". if the devs cant make adjustment s to go back to the way DDO was a few years ago with more role players than every class needs to be able to keep up with the changes to the game today.

If your an ad&d player than you know barbs don't HEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I will stand by what I say not all classes should be able to heal themselves its already to easy as it is and should be toned done about 90% for non divine classes or forged casters.

[Systern]

I think striving for equivalence is a fool's errand. What you'll end up with is a game so bland that "balanced party" doesn't matter because anyone is comparable to anyone else.

While the grossly overpowered (monks, monkchers), and the grossly underpowered (pure pally and pure bard) need to be addressed. I'd like to see you guys consciously crafting the meta. I'd like a return to the days of yore when Necro 4 was a divine focused pack, and Secrets of the Artificers elevated arti and thief gear for a quarter. With games like DotA, LoL, and IC; each patch changes the meta and elevates the underpowered and swings the OP to median for a release.

Your current proposal, even addressing Pallies and Bards underpowered perception, will mean that you strive to have them only a step behind the monkchers that have always shined. This won't make us bard players feel good knowing "at least I don't suck as bad anymore". I'd like to see the underdogs have a chance in the limelight before returning to the middle of the pack. If you try to make everything equal, it just means the FotM crowd forever looks for the broken combinations, and the WAI builds are always a step behind.

Intentionally break the underpowered for an Update, and then nerf the OP to mediocrity in the next update. You'll be able to control the lows, the highs, and the median more easily that way.