Please make PRR and AC more useful.

[HatsuharuZ]

Light armor wearers will take a big hit under this system. I specifically chose light armor over robes to get the PRR bonus. I don't know the right numbers yet, but this change would likely have me trying to shift some prr toward more dodge again, which of course would require me to splash monk to boost my dodge cap...

And then you'd get less PRR while wearing robes...

[Seikojin]

We need a second defensive pass.

I agree. All they have to do is add it to the feats.

Have the proficiency feats provide level up boosts to their specific tier of armor.

Clothing/cloth - no feat, no bonus.
Light - while wearing armor of the appropriate type: every X level provides +A to AC, +B to PRR, +C to DR. For example, Every 3 levels, add +1 AC, +1 PRR, +1/- DR. At level 30, the feat would provide +10 AC, +10 PRR, and +10/- DR.

Medium - while wearing armor of the appropriate type: every X level provides +A to AC, +B to PRR, +C to DR. For example, Every 3 levels, add +1.5 AC, +1.5 PRR, +1.5/- DR. At level 30, the feat would provide +15 AC, +15 PRR, and +15/- DR.

Heavy - while wearing armor of the appropriate type: every X level provides +A to AC, +B to PRR, +C to DR. For example, Every 3 levels, add +2 AC, +2 PRR, +2/- DR. At level 30, the feat would provide +20 AC, +20 PRR, and +20/- DR.

I think with this level of increment, my examples would only increase the effectiveness of armor by 30%. Meaning overall it would add a significant boost to the survivability of all armor types outside of cloth, without taking the benefits of dodge and incorp layers either.

They could go a step further. For those feats, being a Paladin or Fighter can increase those further. Like a Fighter or Pally get 2x the bonuses from their defensive feats. OR make the core enhancements in their defensive enhancement trees boost the effects from the feats.

[Munkenmo]

Light armor wearers will take a big hit under this system. I specifically chose light armor over robes to get the PRR bonus. I don't know the right numbers yet, but this change would likely have me trying to shift some prr toward more dodge again, which of course would require me to splash monk to boost my dodge cap...

So you'd Gain 3 dodge, and lose PRR, it's a better system than what we have currently.

[Teh_Troll]

I agree. All they have to do is add it to the feats.

Have the proficiency feats provide level up boosts to their specific tier of armor.

More than that.

The next defensive pass needs to start with the follow two premises:

- The single best mitigation against physical damage needs to be a guy wearing Heavy Armor and a shield and it needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY more that a guy running around in a loin-clothe.
- AC should be the MOST important aspect of a layered defense and not the least.

[Wongar]

As currently implemented what AC would one have to have to have a meaningful AC in EE content? And is it even possible to get there? As currently implemented wouldn't a meaningful AC in EE give you near god mode in EH?

Trying to understand how AC currently works. Is AC a straight hit/mis chance? Does it's effectiveness decay at higher levels like PRR? I don't have the background that most on these forums have and have been able to find little about how current AC works. The wiki seems to be very outdated and the U14 release notes for when it was changed don't give much detail:

"Armor Class curves have been adjusted and rebalanced to better scale with high level and Epic level content, and to be more meaningful at lower levels"

This seems to also be when dodge and PRR were introduced. Was there any reasoning discussed to make doge a flat % and give PRR the sharp decline?

[Nightmanis]

As currently implemented what AC would one have to have to have a meaningful AC in EE content? And is it even possible to get there? As currently implemented wouldn't a meaningful AC in EE give you near god mode in EH?

Trying to understand how AC currently works. Is AC a straight hit/mis chance? Does it's effectiveness decay at higher levels like PRR? I don't have the background that most on these forums have and have been able to find little about how current AC works. The wiki seems to be very outdated and the U14 release notes for when it was changed don't give much detail:

"Armor Class curves have been adjusted and rebalanced to better scale with high level and Epic level content, and to be more meaningful at lower levels"

This seems to also be when dodge and PRR were introduced. Was there any reasoning discussed to make doge a flat % and give PRR the sharp decline?

200. Currently that's not an easy number to hit. If we keep the same system going, having a solid 80% miss chance at 250ac against the highest level enemy in the game would be awesome.

[Teh_Troll]

200. Currently that's not an easy number to hit. If we keep the same system going, having a solid 80% miss chance at 250ac against the highest level enemy in the game would be awesome.

I'm not even sure 200 would matter. Highest we tested was 180 and it didn't do squat against anything that actually mattered.

[redoubt]

In general, it seems that a lot of people agree that heavier armor should provide more absorby-type protection. In this case, we have been discussing PRR.

What if instead of nerfing anything, you just put in a mod to the formula?

Currently the formula uses 0.65 to produce diminishing returns. Leave all the other sources of PRR alone and provide a boost to that number. i.e.

clothe = no boost and uses 0.65
light armor = 0.05 boost and uses 0.70
medium = 0.75
heavy = 0.80

You can add a small bonus for special metal types if desired.

Then add in some for shield users, i.e.:
+0.02 for a buckler
+0.04 for a light shield
+0.06 for a heavy shield
+0.08 for a tower shield.

I'm spit-balling here, so if the idea doesn't work that's cool, but lets keep it civil. Thanks.

[redoubt]

Heavy Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to your Base Attack Bonus +6.
Medium Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 2/3 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up) and add +4.
Light Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 1/2 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up) and add +2.
Adamantine Body gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to your Base Attack Bonus.
Mithral Body gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 1/2 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up).


Alternatively, you could just take the already scaled to armor "heaviness" system in place and multiply it by some factor. This would still result in clothe receiving no further bonus, but each tier of armor getting a little more. i.e. double all of these above (or times 2.3453253 or whatever number is the right one.)

[Scraap]

I wonder how well it'd work making the PRR formula work more like this.

Heavy Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.75
Medium Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65
Light Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.55
Cloth = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.45

This change would also need to introduce the ability to hover over the PRR box in our character sheet to see exactly how much mitigation we're getting.

Edit. for those who don't understand the formula, Here's a comparison as to how it would work compared to the live results.

On live 100PRR = ~41% Damage reduction.
This formula would make 100prr :
47% Damage reduction in Heavy armor
41% Damage reduction in Medium armor
34% Damage reduction in Light armor
28% Damage reduction in Cloth.

In general, it seems that a lot of people agree that heavier armor should provide more absorby-type protection. In this case, we have been discussing PRR.

What if instead of nerfing anything, you just put in a mod to the formula?

Currently the formula uses 0.65 to produce diminishing returns. Leave all the other sources of PRR alone and provide a boost to that number. i.e.

clothe = no boost and uses 0.65
light armor = 0.05 boost and uses 0.70
medium = 0.75
heavy = 0.80

You can add a small bonus for special metal types if desired.

Then add in some for shield users, i.e.:
+0.02 for a buckler
+0.04 for a light shield
+0.06 for a heavy shield
+0.08 for a tower shield.

I'm spit-balling here, so if the idea doesn't work that's cool, but lets keep it civil. Thanks.

These seem decent, though I'd put more a bit more weight on the shield delta, since that's the larger dps hit, and the best defense is still your enemy laying bleeding on the ground.

[redoubt]

Heavy Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to your Base Attack Bonus +6.
Medium Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 2/3 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up) and add +4.
Light Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 1/2 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up) and add +2.
Adamantine Body gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to your Base Attack Bonus.
Mithral Body gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 1/2 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up).


Alternatively, you could just take the already scaled to armor "heaviness" system in place and multiply it by some factor. This would still result in clothe receiving no further bonus, but each tier of armor getting a little more. i.e. double all of these above (or times 2.3453253 or whatever number is the right one.)

I hate that I can't edit. I was thinking to double the total the above calculation gives, not just the plus at the end. i.e. heavy = 2(BAB+6)

[redoubt]

These seem decent, though I'd put more a bit more weight on the shield delta, since that's the larger dps hit, and the best defense is still your enemy laying bleeding on the ground.

So like drop the armor iteration to 0.03 and raise the shield one to the same.

no armor = 0.65
light = 0.68
med = 0.71
heavy = 0.74

buckler +0.03 etc...

Highest max would be heavy at 0.74 and a tower at 0.12 for a total factor of 0.86.

I'd just be careful getting the number too close to 1.0. But, I'm honestly not sure how close, is too close yet.

[Scraap]

I'd just be careful getting the number too close to 1.0. But, I'm honestly not sure how close, is too close yet.

Were the only factor raw physical damage, I'd tend to agree. Two factors to keep in mind though: dodge shuts out all damage, PRR just mitigates the first number. And that also assumes no casters in the encounter. That 86% is still hovering right around where we were at during the period when we were dealing with grazing hits on elites, which really doesn't seem that unreasonable taking the other factors into account.

[Nightmanis]

I'm not even sure 200 would matter. Highest we tested was 180 and it didn't do squat against anything that actually mattered.

I'm saying to make AC useful, we should figure up the equations to someone having 200ac, then making it difficult to hit that. Also, to help this number only really be reached by those with a shield, remove Monk Wisdom to AC, or make it only apply half.

[Nightmanis]

Rather than even specifically saying 'make PRR and AC more useful', I'd rather just back up and say 'make Light/Medium/Heavy Armor and/or Shields more useful/viable/competitive'.

Right now Ultimate Earth Stance (what my rogue has) + Standing with Stone (Tier 4 GMOF Earth Stance based twist) is granting the same PRR bonus as a tower shield with improved shield mastery and legendary shield tactics, but with 12x the dodge cap and a massive bonus to dps.

Ultimate Earth: 15prr, Max Dodge 25
Standing with Stone: 15prr

Tower shield with ISM: 15prr, Max dodge 2
Legendary Shield Mastery: 15prr

This to me is absurd. With the way PRR is set up, you could almost double the benefit of ISM for PRR, and increase Legendary to give 20+ (if not more) and not receive so much of a benefit simply because of the bell curve. Tack onto that an exceptional DR bonus that applies permanently (not while blocking) of about 10-15, and you'd have our hearts for a while.

And remember, if you're using a tower shield there is no real reason to use anything but fullplate unless you have evasion. All of which is a huge detriment to defense, especially when considering what monks get. The only decent setup I can see is the Purple Dragon shield and the Shadowscale Fullplate (both of which I think look awesome, thank you DocOc for your efforts) simply for the consolidation and extra benefit from the dr. What would be awesome for the DR is you get that while either below 75% health, or holding a shield (again, benefiting those who use shields.)

I might also make the proposal that Greater Stalwart bonuses from both defender trees are activated when a shield is equipped, irregardless of what is in the offhand. That way I can actually scroll heal myself instead of dying instantly from the massive loss of HP from swapping.

[Teh_Troll]

I'm saying to make AC useful, we should figure up the equations to someone having 200ac, then making it difficult to hit that. Also, to help this number only really be reached by those with a shield, remove Monk Wisdom to AC, or make it only apply half.

Making AC matter in EEs would require some monk AC nerfage as well, AC working would push them into god-mode.

[redspecter23]

Making AC matter in EEs would require some monk AC nerfage as well, AC working would push them into god-mode.

You just need to slide the scale a bit more toward heavy armor and shields and leave monks where they are. If a very well geared endgame monk with all the AC gear was getting 50% mitigation from AC and a moderately build heavy armor + shield wearer was at 75% (heavily geared at 90%) would that be about the right balance? Or should monk be topping out at 25% mitigation from AC, essentially making it useless to attempt in EE. Serious question. Where should these classes be sitting at EE endgame as far as AC/Dodge/PRR is concerned? Figure out that, then work backwards.

Personally I'd be fine with something like this for reasonably geared builds at EE endgame. With extra effort, some numbers could be bumped slightly.

Monk or monk splash
AC, 25% / Dodge, 30% / PRR, 0% / +evasion

Heavy Armor/S&B
AC, 85% / Dodge, 0% / PRR, 75%

Heavy Armor (no shield)
AC, 60% / Dodge, 0% / PRR 50%

Medium Armor, no shield (barbarian)
AC, 35% (assuming no raging) / Dodge, 20% / PRR, 35% / + bursts of uncanny dodge

Light Armor, no shield (rogue, ranger)
AC, 25% / Dodge, 25% / PRR, 30% / +evasion / +rogue bursts of uncanny dodge

Cloth (caster)
AC 5% / Dodge 20% / PRR 0% / +evasion (potentially with a splash)

In any case, I think adding a shield should be adding significantly to both AC and PRR. Being in cloth should be extremely squishy. Your defense is dodging or staying at range. Getting hit should hurt. I'd probably also do a pass on EE mob damage at the same time and lower it slightly as in my examples all but heavy armor wearers with shields are worse off than they are now in general (PRR specifically)

[Nightmanis]

You just need to slide the scale a bit more toward heavy armor and shields and leave monks where they are. If a very well geared endgame monk with all the AC gear was getting 50% mitigation from AC and a moderately build heavy armor + shield wearer was at 75% (heavily geared at 90%) would that be about the right balance? Or should monk be topping out at 25% mitigation from AC, essentially making it useless to attempt in EE. Serious question. Where should these classes be sitting at EE endgame as far as AC/Dodge/PRR is concerned? Figure out that, then work backwards.

If I'm honest, a good 60% from ac for Armour would be a sweet spot for me. That's over half, meaning you will notice the overall effect of it, but isn't so high that it's game breaking powerful. Monks however **** near should just not worry about getting ac at all. Taking away their wisdom to ac, while boosting what armour gets at base would go a long way to making sure this happens.

Justifying this:

Heavy Armour+Tower Shield:

High Armour, High PRR, High DR, absorbs damage but terrible at avoiding hits.

Monks

Shadow Veil, high dodge, no dr, low damage mitigation, avoids damage outright but terrible at mitigating damage when hit.

For the record though, I would rather use a heavy shield and light to medium armour, simply for a more realistic design than the super heavy built fighter. Good balance of mitigating a blow, but without losing too much mobility.

[DrawingGuy]

Definitely a lot of Monk hate here (expected from Teh_Troll)

Monk NEED to be able to survive in melee. With tons of hate building, they are ALSO supposed to be able to build themselves as tanks. If they nerfed PRR for cloth armor and then built the game around a state where PRR actually had a point past 70, Monks would then become useless if they just got one-shotted every time their dodge failed. They're not casters meant to be glass cannons from range. They're not Rogues meant to be backstabbing with anti aggro. They can try to be like Tempest Rangers (whom can max their dodge much more easily than Monks) where they don't go for tanking but are meant to be able to survive aggro (though seeing a ranger symbol means 99% chance they're AA as why go melee when EEs 1-3 shot?). Should they be able to take a physical hit like a S&B tank? No. But they certainly should be much better than a rogue or caster when they go tank mode. Of course there is then the issue that Mountain Stance gives survival *and* DPS, where Fire Stance is the weakest stance, Wind does nothing but gives a little double strike since it's attack speed doesn't stack while lowering HP/Fort saves, making Earth and Water the stance of choice of almost every class with monk levels.

Though stances is a different debate covered in multiple threads, the bigger concern is that currently Monk survivability is handed to everyone that splashes Monk. 6 Monk levels gives you every single point of PRR, Dodge, and Incorporal a Monk can get only being shorted 9 AC, which AC is currently pointless anyways. I think the bigger concern should be shutting off this low barrier of entry rather than kill off full Monk tank mode survivability to make heavy armor the better one. The biggest would be to make Monk stances no longer selectable feats and only grant at the appropriate monk levels. Other options could be to cap your WIS to AC bonus to your Monk level (where 20 removes the cap). Switching Shadow Veil to the 12 or 18 core.

Using Redspecter's versions of potential survival options:

Pure Monk tank mode
AC, 50% / Dodge, 28% / PRR, 50% / +evasion

Non tank Monk or Monk Splash
AC, 25% / Dodge, 33% / PRR, 10% / +evasion

Heavy Armor/S&B
AC, 85% / Dodge, 10% / PRR, 80%

Heavy Armor (no shield)
AC, 50% / Dodge, 10% / PRR 50%

Medium Armor, no shield (barbarian)
AC, 35% (assuming no raging) / Dodge, 20% / PRR, 35% / + bursts of uncanny dodge

Light Armor, no shield (rogue, ranger)
AC, 25% / Dodge, 25% / PRR, 25% / +evasion / +rogue bursts of uncanny dodge

Cloth (caster)
AC 5% / Dodge 25% / PRR 10% / +evasion (potentially with a splash)

[redoubt]

Definitely a lot of Monk hate here (expected from Teh_Troll)

Monk NEED to be able to survive in melee. With tons of hate building, they are ALSO supposed to be able to build themselves as tanks. If they nerfed PRR for cloth armor and then built the game around a state where PRR actually had a point past 70, Monks would then become useless if they just got one-shotted every time their dodge failed. They're not casters meant to be glass cannons from range. They're not Rogues meant to be backstabbing with anti aggro. They can try to be like Tempest Rangers (whom can max their dodge much more easily than Monks) where they don't go for tanking but are meant to be able to survive aggro (though seeing a ranger symbol means 99% chance they're AA as why go melee when EEs 1-3 shot?). Should they be able to take a physical hit like a S&B tank? No. But they certainly should be much better than a rogue or caster when they go tank mode. Of course there is then the issue that Mountain Stance gives survival *and* DPS, where Fire Stance is the weakest stance, Wind does nothing but gives a little double strike since it's attack speed doesn't stack while lowering HP/Fort saves, making Earth and Water the stance of choice of almost every class with monk levels.

Though stances is a different debate covered in multiple threads, the bigger concern is that currently Monk survivability is handed to everyone that splashes Monk. 6 Monk levels gives you every single point of PRR, Dodge, and Incorporal a Monk can get only being shorted 9 AC, which AC is currently pointless anyways. I think the bigger concern should be shutting off this low barrier of entry rather than kill off full Monk tank mode survivability to make heavy armor the better one. The biggest would be to make Monk stances no longer selectable feats and only grant at the appropriate monk levels. Other options could be to cap your WIS to AC bonus to your Monk level (where 20 removes the cap). Switching Shadow Veil to the 12 or 18 core.

Using Redspecter's versions of potential survival options:

Pure Monk tank mode
AC, 50% / Dodge, 28% / PRR, 50% / +evasion

Non tank Monk or Monk Splash
AC, 25% / Dodge, 33% / PRR, 10% / +evasion

Heavy Armor/S&B
AC, 85% / Dodge, 10% / PRR, 80%

Heavy Armor (no shield)
AC, 50% / Dodge, 10% / PRR 50%

Medium Armor, no shield (barbarian)
AC, 35% (assuming no raging) / Dodge, 20% / PRR, 35% / + bursts of uncanny dodge

Light Armor, no shield (rogue, ranger)
AC, 25% / Dodge, 25% / PRR, 25% / +evasion / +rogue bursts of uncanny dodge

Cloth (caster)
AC 5% / Dodge 25% / PRR 10% / +evasion (potentially with a splash)

Why does a monk get double the avoidance of a ranger or rogue?
Why are you backing down light armor from what is in game already?

You speak of monk hate, but in order to deflect the "monk hate" all the people who want to protect monk supremacy seem to defect any reductions to monk and push it off on light armor wearers...